FPGA Amiga

[OlafS3]

I have no idea if democoders can be tagged  as "developers"  but I have been talking to many of them. (you know people that also does the demos that wins compos etc)  and still have to find ONE single person saying that he want to do something for it.

so if those can be tagged as a developer, there is quite a "few" of them


edit: but true. demos is maybe a different thing.. so...

what is true that in the old days sometimes demo groups used their knowledge to write games but that happened not often. For demo coders Vampire is not interesting because they want to use a underpowered defined hardware base to create something that makes people wonder how they did it. So demo coders were not pissed off by whatever, Vampire simply is not for them. Still it would be nice if some would code on it just to show the potential. Kolla talked about normal developers but i still wonder where those hide.

[Chucky]

At A32 I talked to some people, it is very known that I am not a too happy person about the vampire (well I am a demoscener so.)

and there was quite a few persons telling me "Why should I even bother about it when I cannot use the tools I have been using for ages" (meaning mungwall etc)   so there are people out, that are "pissed" but just simply doesn't say anything. they just ignore it instead.
(as IF you say anything, you WILL get the angry vampiremob on you)

[OlafS3]

At A32 I talked to some people, it is very known that I am not a too happy person about the vampire (well I am a demoscener so.)

and there was quite a few persons telling me "Why should I even bother about it when I cannot use the tools I have been using for ages" (meaning mungwall etc)   so there are people out, that are "pissed" but just simply doesn't say anything. they just ignore it instead.
(as IF you say anything, you WILL get the angry vampiremob on you)

The old devs are mostly in retirement age, if Vampire or similar shall have any future fresh blood is needed. And regarding MMU, Vampire is not created as a small toy for developers but for users so priority is what users need not what some developers want. It is a consumer product and there is only a very small team behind it. I can only judge what happened when two developers were pissed off how kolla names it. They were requesting this or that, they expect this or that. Gunnar can be very harsh too so both sides increased the tone until both were thrown out of the forum. One of that of course were very loud after that talking down the project everywhere. I am there very careful now what people say. You say one developer were pissed off because of the tool missing, so he would have developed some fancy new software for Vampire if it were available? Then he should go in IRC and propose what he offers if he gets this or that. If proposal is good the team might change priorities. If he has nothing to offer the team will continue and keep the priorities.

[Chucky]

not only one person.  some.  not many but there was people talking about it.
AND actually.  like when the team offered a "free" core for people doing their own acceleratorcards.  people asked about the MMU!  Gunnar was more than clear that he was not interested.   and this starts a catch22.   they develope new stuff and functions for the vamp.  but at the same time doesn't fill the request of the few persons coding on the machine, making it hard for those interested in using the new stuff do.  well do it.   so the new stuff will not be that used.

somewhat like the PPC back in the days.  Compilers was so expensive so very few supported it.

IF supplying the coders with the tools they need (debuggingtools, compilers etc etc) then the software comes and then the users can get more out of it.  No instead IF you ask for a feature you only get a harsh comment that "noone is interested"  or maybe a trumpish answer like "my solution is the best anyway. even if there is no software supporting it, but mine is best"   it gets annoying.  and only very few people comments it, the rest just shuts up and ignores it.

so YES! developers are getting pissed, but instead of saying it, they are quiet and by that doesn't have to talk to all fanboys bashing them of being "haters"

[Kremlar]

I understand there are a lot of personal feelings going around here.  That seems common in the Amiga community, and especially when hot heads collide where everyone has their own idea of how Amiga should move forward.

This is a typical chicken and egg syndrome.  However, in this case I think they are clearly making the right choice.  If they focused on developer-centric features first, users would be less interested in purchasing and developers would say "why should I develop for this when there are no users?"

In this case there are clear benefits to buying a Vampire WITHOUT many developers getting involved.  Yes, if you have an 060 setup and are happy with it this may not be the product for you - but you are in the clear minority.  Vampire offers a clear benefit for anyone without an 060 looking for a CPU upgrade, along with RTG and many other features.  Just with existing software.  Would new software be nice?  Yes, and software is trickling in.
 But they are selling tons so why switch priorities now?

Once they finish adding all the consumer-centric features they'd like I assume they'll switch to developer-centric features.  By then developers will have a nice target audience to develop for.

And I'm sure this product is not of interest to the demo scene.  They are most interested in retro hardware, and this makes the Amiga less retro.

They are a small team and can't do everything at once!

[SamuraiCrow]

I understand there are a lot of personal feelings going around here.  That seems common in the Amiga community, and especially when hot heads collide where everyone has their own idea of how Amiga should move forward.

This is a typical chicken and egg syndrome.  However, in this case I think they are clearly making the right choice.  If they focused on developer-centric features first, users would be less interested in purchasing and developers would say "why should I develop for this when there are no users?"

In this case there are clear benefits to buying a Vampire WITHOUT many developers getting involved.  Yes, if you have an 060 setup and are happy with it this may not be the product for you - but you are in the clear minority.  Vampire offers a clear benefit for anyone without an 060 looking for a CPU upgrade, along with RTG and many other features.  Just with existing software.  Would new software be nice?  Yes, and software is trickling in.
 But they are selling tons so why switch priorities now?

Once they finish adding all the consumer-centric features they'd like I assume they'll switch to developer-centric features.  By then developers will have a nice target audience to develop for.

And I'm sure this product is not of interest to the demo scene.  They are most interested in retro hardware, and this makes the Amiga less retro.

They are a small team and can't do everything at once!

Hear here!  I was an active member of the Vampire team for a while and got to try a Vampire 500 prototype for a while.  I hope to get one of my own.  I never owned a graphics card for a Classic Amiga nor a fast accelerator.  Having those avenues open to me was a new experience for me.

As for PowerPC, by the time the quirks were worked out of OS4, my MicroA1 was not worth upgrading.  As new features spring up such as SPE units new quirks are inevitable and the OS market for AmigaOne models becomes less sustainable.

I don't have time or the budget to maintain both NG Amiga models and classic models and as a hobby coder, most of the programming languages I use work exclusively on the classic models.

If it were just about the money I would have stuck with a MorphOS Mac.  If it were just about the nostalgia, I would have stuck with the Blizzard 1230.  The Vampire gives the best bang for the buck overall so I'll hold out for it.

[psxphill]

For demo coders Vampire is not interesting because they want to use a underpowered defined hardware base to create something that makes people wonder how they did it

It's 2018, Vampire is under powered.

[Gulliver]

It's 2018, Vampire is under powered.

It is a great toy for those that have an emotional attachment to their old original Amiga hardware and want a cool expansion for it. But it doesnt have any chance to compete anywhere else. Even an arm sbc can outperform it, and be much cheaper and versatile (eg:rasperry pi3).

Still a nice hack for Amigas, but unfortunately, nothing more than that.

[Iggy]

It is a great toy for those that have an emotional attachment to their old original Amiga hardware and want a cool expansion for it. But it doesnt have any chance to compete anywhere else. Even an arm sbc can outperform it, and be much cheaper and versatile (eg:rasperry pi3).

Still a nice hack for Amigas, but unfortunately, nothing more than that.

As to cost, I'd still love to see my Quad G5 supported by a PPC NG OS.
The G5's PowerMacs are cheap right now.
And, compared to all other PPC systems I've used, this has enough power (particularly when its using an OS that supports SMP) that I don't feel disadvantaged when I switch between it and my i7 laptop.

As to  legacy, I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with using parts that aren't original or retro.
After all, even with a fast FPGA installed, a legacy Amiga is still a boat anchor compared to modern hardware.

I CAN see the 'its fun' argument, but I'm not sure I want to throw too much money at this.

[Karlos]

Bring on the Vampire for A1200. I don't care if it's underpowered, since this definition is relative. It may he slower than emulation, NG but the fact remains it will be a sight faster than existing 68K boards.

I do agree with the earlier post about better 68K compatibility. My ideal would also be on par with 68040, at least for user mode ISA.

If you just want insane performance on current hardware, just run MenuetOS on x64.

[OlafS3]

It's 2018, Vampire is under powered.

Sorry to destroy your illusions but your PPC based embedded toys are underpowered in todays terms too

[OlafS3]

As to cost, I'd still love to see my Quad G5 supported by a PPC NG OS.
The G5's PowerMacs are cheap right now.
And, compared to all other PPC systems I've used, this has enough power (particularly when its using an OS that supports SMP) that I don't feel disadvantaged when I switch between it and my i7 laptop.

As to  legacy, I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with using parts that aren't original or retro.
After all, even with a fast FPGA installed, a legacy Amiga is still a boat anchor compared to modern hardware.

I CAN see the 'its fun' argument, but I'm not sure I want to throw too much money at this.

Neither AmigaOS nor MorphOS support SMP (at least up to now)

Regarding Vampire, it is a toy, a hobby platform for amiga enthusiasts, retro how you would call it but there are obvious many people interested to get it and those who have it are all happy about it (at least most except some active members on different forums of course). The "fun" argument is why people buy it, it is a hobby and you do a hobby to have fun. It would be different if something is for work or at least your main platform at home but that is hardly the case for most of us.

[AdvancedFollower]

Well all Amiga platforms are toys and hobby platforms for enthusiasts. Doesn't make them less viable as products - the majority of the stuff we buy except for the bare necessities like food etc. are "toys".
If people enjoy using Vampire, AmigaOne or whatever then great for them. I think most sane individuals realize that for getting actual work done (the kind you get paid for), you're much better off with a modern operating system and CPU architecture (unless you are one of the 3 people in the world that still makes money from Amiga development).

[psxphill]

Sorry to destroy your illusions but your PPC based embedded toys are underpowered in todays terms too

I don't have an illusions, or PPC based embedded toys.

Your argument doesn't hold water about the demo scene, I was merely pointing that out. No need to get touchy.

Regarding Vampire, it is a toy, a hobby platform for amiga enthusiasts,

That doesn't appear to be how gunnar sees it.

[OlafS3]

I don't have an illusions, or PPC based embedded toys.

Your argument doesn't hold water about the demo scene, I was merely pointing that out. No need to get touchy.



That doesn't appear to be how gunnar sees it.

You were first one explaining me if Vampire is underpowered in todays terms as if I (or most of us) would not know that. And regarding Gunnar, he has his dreams like getting a amiga with his processor as ASIC or beating modern hardware in certain limited aspects. I do not think that he believes Vampire or future standalone hardware will beat modern hardware, it is just part of his personal fun. If you do not like it simply not visit apollo forum. Outside he only writes from time to time to answer some questions so you can easily avoid him if that is the problem.

[psxphill]

You were first one explaining me if Vampire is underpowered in todays terms as if I (or most of us) would not know that.

You said it wasn't under powered.

For demo coders Vampire is not interesting because they want to use a underpowered defined hardware base to create something that makes people wonder how they did it.

Which is it?

IMO they would avoid it because it's too expensive and a bit like joining a cult.