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Author Topic: 68060 and the 68882  (Read 8288 times)

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Offline IggyTopic starter

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68060 and the 68882
« on: April 20, 2011, 06:14:53 PM »
Can a 68060 without an FPU use a 68882RC50 as a memory mapped peripheral?

What is the fastest overclock for a 68882?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 06:22:44 PM by Iggy »
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Offline joekster

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 07:32:21 PM »
Yes, any 680x0 can use a 68882 as a memory mapped peripheral.
I've been able to clock several '882's to 60mhz. I would guess that the fastest would be in the range of 66-70mhz.
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 08:27:21 PM »
Quote from: joekster;632630
Yes, any 680x0 can use a 68882 as a memory mapped peripheral.
I've been able to clock several '882's to 60mhz. I would guess that the fastest would be in the range of 66-70mhz.

How about 75Mhz if heat sinked and fan cooled?
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Offline VingtTrois

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2011, 08:35:22 PM »
>68882 - 32-bit FPU - Frequency: 16 - 50MHz

In my A3000D 030@25MHz, I've modded the 68882@25MHz to 50MHz!
In an (old) article, it was write that Commodore has tested these 68882 at 100MHz (information not confirmed!!).
So I think there is actually an operating margin, joekster is right: 50MHz can certainly work up to 66/70MHz!
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 03:00:17 AM by VingtTrois »
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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2011, 08:46:42 PM »
Does anyone know how to get a hold of the creator of the Oxyron Patcher?
The last address I have is Achim Koyen, Nûbelfeld 49, D-24972 Quern, Germany.
Anyone know a newer address or better yet an e-mail address?
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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 08:49:52 PM »
Quote from: VingtTrois;632644
>68882 - 32-bit FPU - Frequency: 16 - 50MHz

In my A3000D 030@25MHz, I've modded the 68882@25MHz to 50MHz!
In an (old) article, it was write that Commodore has tested these 68882 at 100MHz (information not confirmed!!).
So I think there is actually an operating margin, joekster is right: 50MHz can certainly work up to 66/70MHz!

Can you send me that article? 68EC060s are more over-clockable then standard 68060s. I'd like to experiment with combining an EC with an '82.
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Offline VingtTrois

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 09:05:52 PM »
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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 09:29:54 PM »
Quote from: VingtTrois;632651
AMINET: http://aminet.net/package/docs/hard/A3000-50


So, potentially, we could run a 75Mhz 68EC060 and a 50Mhz 68882 (both with heat sinks and fans) at 100Mhz?
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Offline Karlos

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 09:53:47 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;632654
So, potentially, we could run a 75Mhz 68EC060 and a 50Mhz 68882 (both with heat sinks and fans) at 100Mhz?


I'd be surprised if the 68882 lived for very long at 100MHz as that's a factor of 2 overclock from their highest rating. Remember that the last mask 68060's run at 100MHz due to their improved manufacturing tolerances and also the fact they are 3.3v parts which dissipates less heat than 5V logic.

At 100MHz, and with appropriate care taken to the method (eg, trap and patch rather than trap and emulate) you'd probably be able to write a software floating point library that is faster than you'd get a 68882 running in any case.
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Offline yakumo9275

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 09:57:00 PM »
less work to just buy a fully working 060
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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2011, 11:36:53 PM »
Quote from: yakumo9275;632657
less work to just buy a fully working 060

Not very easy getting a 68060 to 100Mhz.
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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2011, 11:39:44 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;632656
I'd be surprised if the 68882 lived for very long at 100MHz as that's a factor of 2 overclock from their highest rating. Remember that the last mask 68060's run at 100MHz due to their improved manufacturing tolerances and also the fact they are 3.3v parts which dissipates less heat than 5V logic.

At 100MHz, and with appropriate care taken to the method (eg, trap and patch rather than trap and emulate) you'd probably be able to write a software floating point library that is faster than you'd get a 68882 running in any case.

Karlos, where can I learn about both trap and patch and trap and emulate? Specifically, I'm interested in the trapping of FPU calls and the potential to improve upon them.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2011, 12:04:47 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;632666
Karlos, where can I learn about both trap and patch and trap and emulate? Specifically, I'm interested in the trapping of FPU calls and the potential to improve upon them.


Trap and emulate is one of those things that the 680x0 programmer manuals will tell you about. All you are doing is implementing your own exception handler and then writing some code to deal with the exception (note that this all happens in supervisor state and you need to know the layout of your 680x0 exception stack frame which do vary from CPU to CPU).

You can write a handler to do some specific bit of work and then have it return. Normally, you'd write the handler to implement the unimplemented operation and return from the exception. However, you can go a step further and patch instead. Basically what you do here is modify the opcode that resulted in the exception and have it jump to a location of your choosing. If you are not fairly comfortable poking around in 680x0 supervisor mode this is not trivial to do, you have to be careful how much space there is to insert your jump and also you have to make sure you flush the instruction cache and so on. However, this is the basic gist of how tools like CyberPatcher and OxyPatcher do their magic.

I'm not sure if it will help you much but I played with some CPU exception handling a few years ago on 680x0 albeit for a different purpose:

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25181

In this case, I was using the CPU to trap illegal operations and have it invoke a language level exception mechanism (a C++ throw in this case). It does demonstrate some of the sneaky shenanigans you can get up to though.
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Offline SpeedGeek

Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2011, 12:27:03 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;632618
Can a 68060 without an FPU use a 68882RC50 as a memory mapped peripheral?
 
What is the fastest overclock for a 68882?

They can usually run @ 60-75 Mhz. The latest revision and mask MC68882 may even go faster.
 
But you won't see the performance you would have with a 50 Mhz 68030 by using the instruction trap kludge.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 12:54:20 AM by SpeedGeek »
 

Offline matthey

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Re: 68060 and the 68882
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2011, 01:28:05 AM »
Quote from: SpeedGeek;632671
But you won't see the performance you would have with a 50 Mhz 68030 by using the instruction trap kludge.

Trapping would slow the CPU down to a crawl. The 68882 is a dog compared to the 68060 FPU also. ~1/8 of the speed on average at the same clock rate comes to mind (not counting any trapping overhead). If I remember correctly, Motorola did something to keep the 68881/68882 from being easily used with 68040+ as well. Don't quote me on the last 2 statements though. Here is a chart of some common FPU instructions and timings in cycles for the 68882, 68040 and 68060 in that order...

FMove FPn,FPn 21 2 1
FMove.D ,FPn 40 3 1
FMove.D FPn, 44 3 1
FAdd FPn,FPn 21 3 3
FSub FPn,FPn 21 3 3
FMul FPn,FPn 76 5 3
FDiv FPn,FPn 108 38 37
FSqrt FPn,FPn 110 103 68
FAdd.D ,FPn 75 3 3
FSub.D ,FPn 75 3 3
FMul.D ,FPn 95 5 3
FDiv.D ,FPn 127 38 37
FSqrt.D ,FPn 129 103 68

For trapping, add in 19 cycles for the trap and 17 for the RTE instruction on the 68060. Also consider that integer instructions and branches can operate in parallel with FPU instructions on the 68060 and can't while trapping. The 68060 would probably be faster with an all software floating point library in most cases. You should look at the Natami project if you want a faster 68k CPU and FPU.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 01:32:43 AM by matthey »