Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: norm on February 14, 2003, 12:57:28 PM
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Alan Redhouse has posted an email on the Yahoo Groups amigaone mailing list about the current status of the A1-XE. Please see the link below for more info...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/message/25045 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/message/25045)
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Argh damn.....can't stand those Yahoogroups links........well just my two cents for the day. :-?
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That's amazing. He's still pushing the comparison between the crippled AMD Duron 1200 to the G4/800 as a good thing... Apples and Oranges.
What he should be comparing, cost-to-cost, is his G4/800 solution against a real chip such as an Athlon XP 3000 (or even the outdated XP 2400).
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@Wayne
It's just a way to make positive spin to announcement. Hard fact is that they are late (not a news, have happened many times before) and need couple more weeks to make it all OK again. (and yes.. sounds familiar.)
Well.. we see what they are able to do in following weeks. Cebit is close and with current knowledge they have very little to show by then.
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i would belive that its more about , hey look our 800mzh is faster than the 1.2ghz , and that is a good point anyway as many of the people here really wants to know how it perform .
and if you say that the duron is crippled then i guess you said the same thing when it came back 1-2 years ago?
or maybe you expected the G4 800 to outdo an P4 4ghz setup? , if you are going to patronize anything then do it in a better way please.
sorry but i didnt find it funny.
anyway yes its abit late (by 10 days...) and i dont see the big deal here, 10 days aint much compared to 1 month or 3 months etc, its still feburary and my order email said feburary.
anyway i think they will have it ready at the cebit if thats what they are trying....
btw i am not trying to favourize any here, its from a outsiders perspective....well i tried anyway :)
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Well i for one am pleased we can now compare to a (albeit crippled) CPU from a year (or so) ago as opposed to using a 15 yr old CPU (like me - 68030@25).
Anyway, I told a couple of Windoze-PC owning mates about HJ-F's comparison effort and they was gobsmacked. well two were gobsmacked, the other said - "thats only a cut down Athlon" (he then asked what SIN was). still beats a 68060 though :-)
Roll on end of march for my XE - about time I upgraded, wouldnt you say ?!
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anyway i think they will have it ready at the cebit if thats what they are trying....
I really hope so, but it's not encouraging to see none of their names show up under the Cebit exhibitors list. I'm starting to think it may get pushed back to another Cebit, but that's just me. Here's hoping I am completely wrong.
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Anyway, I told a couple of Windoze-PC owning mates about HJ-F's comparison effort and they was gobsmacked. well two were gobsmacked,
Dont forget that the friedens A1 has not got and Level 3 cache. The productions ones have.
@wayne
Who cares if the duron is crippled at the end of the day as it stands an 800Mhz A1 (in some benchmarks) is faster than 1.2 Ghz PC.
You could equally turn around a say well the A1 is crippled because because it only has 2XAGP and a max bus speed of 133Mhz.
So hopefully with the Dual G4, Altivec & L3 we should be reaching P4 2Ghz+ Performance
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@wayne
even the pentium 4 struggles to get near an amd athlon 3000+ xp chip.
maybe if they license amds stupid speed rating they could call it something that makes it sound good like the amigaone g4 xe 1600+. in england you cant even get the 2800+ so the 3000+ and 3200+ are going to be non existent in our country there will be more chance off getting my a1,unless you greedy americans can let us have some .
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My point here is....
The 800 megahertz G4 is probably fine to run the scaled down AmigaOS of the hopeful future.
That being said, Eyetech et al should not sit there and try and say "my state of the art 800 G4 (which is the highest you'll be able to get for the Amiga) is twice as fast as a crippled AMD chip which now the bottom of the line series". Sure, the Duron was ok.... 3 years ago... (For those of you who don't understand -- apparently a lot of you -- Duron is the AMD equivallent of an Intel Celeron. It is bought by those who really just cannot afford the $10 extra dollars for an Athlon).
Anyway, the G4/800 is NOT the top of the line PPC where the speed is concerned, granted, but it would be far more appropriate to compare the Duron to a Motorola G3 while comparing Athlon XP to the G4. Comparing G4 (top of the line PPC) to the bottom of the line AMD Duron chip is ludicrous and does NOTHING to promote the chip fairly.
It's called "marketeering". By telling you that the 800mhz G4 is "twice as fast as a 1.2 ghz Duron", they are essentially trying to get you to believe that the XE motherboard is as fast as a 2.4 Gigahertz PC. This simply ain't true folks.
You might as well go back to saying "my 50mhz 060 running AmigaOS is faster than my 300 mhz Pentium running Windows XP".
By the way, I just got an e-mail from Krex.com who's selling Athlon XP 2100 chips (1.75Ghz) for $99.00 with heatsink and fan. With a good ASUS or Gigabyte motherboard, that runs about $179.00.
If you want to push your product, don't post innacurate comparisons. End of story.
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It's called "marketeering". By telling you that the 800mhz G4 is "twice as fast as a 1.2 ghz Duron", they are essentially trying to get you to believe that the XE motherboard is as fast as a 2.4 Gigahertz PC. This simply ain't true folks.
Well, I didn't read it as "twice as fast", I read it as 2X the frame rate. Not really the same thing as saying the CPU is twice as fast. In my mind, when I read this it was interpreted as "Wow, they must have a good optimised version of Linux running on the A1" But I guess people read things differently.
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Well, anybody in his right mind knows (possibly excepting most PC users) that benchmarks are highly misleading, especially across platforms and CPU architectures.
Sure, the Duron 1200 Mhz isn't the hottest chip on the planet but neither is the 7451@800 Mhz (especially without L3 cache at the time).
All we were saying is that we ran the same codebase compiled with the same compiler (GCC 2.95.3) and that overall the 800 Mhz G4 (without the L3 cache) gave the Duron 1200 a very sound thrashing.
This "real life" test measures not only CPU performance but also memory bandwidth and graphics card bandwidth.
This is by far a more telling test than most of those artificial benchmarks.
The same result can be obtained with the 750FX from IBM at 800 Mhz incidentally.
Substituting the Duron by an Athlon is not going to have the radically different results that you might expect as not only CPU performance is measured.
It's clear that the Motorola and IBM solutions will never achieve the economies of scale that the Wintel world has.
But then again, if you take a close look at the power-consumption of your average Athlon, you'll find that it is completely unsuitable for embedded use.
Powerconsumption on the PPC is only a fraction of what it is on your average Athlon/Duron/P4.
Throw in the vastly superior Altivec technology and you have an ideal solution for embedded multimedia solutions.
We need to push the AmigaOS into every possible niche and this is exactly the thing.
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The Gfx card is what makes the difference. For most normall applications, unless they're targetting workstations, a G4 at 1.3 is more than enouph, or a double G800 card.
Don't be like the people that buy an expensive GForce4 Gfx card to do wordprocessing!
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i got it wrong amd athlon 3000+xp is available in england and it cost a masive £499.00 so i wont be getting one not good for a chip that runs at less than 2.2 gig about as expensive a p4 at 3gig . i know what you mean a1 is very low spec and speed for todays computing they should have used standard x86 amd motherbords from a company like asus then the os could just been writen for that and no 2 speed agp we could have 8x and all the latest stuff.I have not got that much faith in amiga they have taken ages to get something ready and what has happend to the amiga de it does not seem to get much attention these days and the longer they take the more morph os users there will be and more people losing intrest in the amiga. The amiga will never be what it once was .I remember at school it was the only machine to have you were a somebody if you had one, now people just laugh at you or think your weird or wonder why you would still use them.
out of date amigaone g4 xe on the way .
and seconhand amiga 1000 bought from ebay auction on the way bought as collectors item not for using cost 113 pound and is boxed not that it would do much wit only 512k of memory.
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Have to agree with HyperionMP here.
The 800Mhz G4 is an outdated chip. As old as the duron mentioned. A 3 year old PC had FSB of 133Mhz so this is a fare comparison.
So Mhz 4 Mhz Fsb speed 4 Fsb speed the A1 wins.
While it might not cost $99 its not made in 100,000's.
I dont feel like i'm being ripped of either.
My A500 in 1989 cost me £400 + £150 for an A501 mem expansion and its not 12" from where i type.
This is not the PC World. I'm sure Alan could have got 1.2Mhz G4's out of motorola but what if that pushes the price up by another £200 per unit ?
We are getting a trade off here. Potential loss of customers due to the price being too high for a resonable MHz level.
The Twin G4's will be available soon and i bet that will walk all over my XP1800, which is more that fast enough for my pc needs. Only just got rid of a K62 500Mhz
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I doubt twin g4,s will beat an althlon xp chip and the a1 price is 3 times to high already i could buy the new athlon xp 3000+ and an asus motherboard for around the 600 pound the 800mhz g4 amigaone is costing me lets face it they even want to charge for a crapy 5 volt fan thats stuck to cpu with tape how tacky is that does not even have something to bolt to .
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Ben,
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you in regards to heat dissipation and trying to put an Athlon in an embedded situation. That being stated, I don't consider a desktop platform such as the AmigaOne to be an embedded computer. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
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@Wayne
good point via make boards with their own cpu,s and some of these dont need fans and they are very small one of the via sites i was on had lots of pictures in a gallery to show what you could do with these boards one was in a small toaster, they have the embeded market amiga have no chance these boards are also quite cheap all in one solutions.
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Perhaps Wayne, but for those of us still using (and reasonably happy with PIII's in the 500-600 mhz range, that comparison looks pretty good. And it looks even better when compared to an A3000 with an 060 ....
- BCP
Indpls., IN
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Thanks for the update Alan.
:-D
The talk between CPU's is kinda rediculous.
We all know the sucker is gonna fly!
And not only that...
All this talk about the fastest this and the fastest that is sooo old to me.
There's nothing out there that I need 2 GHZ for unless you're talking about windows xp.
But then again, I wouldn't touch xp with a 10 foot pole.
Been there and done that.
800 MHZ is plenty of horsepower.
Especially for the Amiga.
Nonsense I say.
Give me 800 Mhz and OS4, and I'll be happy for years to come.
I don't need the latest and the greatest to be content.
I mean crap....
Just a few months ago I was content with OS 3.9 and 40 Mhz.
Until my 1200 board was fried...
Now I patiently wait for OS4 to come.
If 800 Mhz and OS4 isn't enough for you, you've got problems.
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@mountain_myst
from comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
"512Kb is enough for anyone."
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I dont know if its me or something else but it seams that we all are talking about CPUs, but what is CPU without software. My point here is 800Mhz is more then enough to run 5-10 years old programs. My biggest concerne arround A1 is lack of software development, and that ia whats off-puting not CPU speeds...
The Cliffs On Cape (http://www.cliffsoncape.com)
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My point here is 800Mhz is more then enough to run 5-10 years old programs. My biggest concerne arround A1 is lack of software development, and that ia whats off-puting not CPU speeds...
Well, my PC is a PIII 1GHz, 256MB Ram, Geforce3 Ti200 64MB, 40GB UDMA100, etc. And to be quite honest. It runs anything I throw at it perfectly ok. But I know how to keep Windows running right. Point is, an 800MHz G4 with Radeon 8500 or better would be more than enough as well. There gets to be a point when it's all just overkill for the average user. Who needs a 2.5GHz machine just to surf the web and check email and play MP3's????
But really, I think the apps will come once OS4 is released. I bought the original A1000 before there was much support for it, so I remember the "wait for software" very well. But then it seemed that before I knew it the shelves were packed with titles.
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That's exactly what I'm saying.
800 mhz is not only enough to run 5 to 10 year old programs, it is also enough to run todays programs with no problem.
Freakin' good video card is all you need!
This Mhz and Ghz hype crap makes me sick.
You put 3 Ghz on windows xp and still have to wait for the icons to draw on the desktop.
Rediculous!!!
I'm running 1410 Mhz Amd with windows 2000 Pro.
No problems whatsoever.
There is nothing that I cannot do with this processor.
So why are people shouting, "we want more speed"?
Greed maybe...
That's all I can figure.
They want to have the best stuff on the block.
My machine is better than your machine.
Give me a break.
Where does it end?
It doesn't.
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@Mountain_Myst
"That's exactly what I'm saying.
800 mhz is not only enough to run 5 to 10 year old programs, it is also enough to run todays programs with no problem."
Look if I had a problem with 800Mhz I would not have
spent 1300UKP ( roughly 1900EUROs ) on a "Power
System" from Eyetech.
But people like to bitch rather than vote with their
wallet.
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Something like that.
For gods sake we still havent got even decent browser and we worry about some bloody Mhz. When you pay attention to software like Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, Explorer,...etc. they will all hapilly run on way bellow 800Mhz. Problem is we havent got Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, Explorer...etc.
Going back to A1000 issue. It was OK because A1000 was far superior machine then anything else on the market and therefore it quickly atracted developers.
A1, hardware vise is truly backwards so no developers will be atracted to program for outdated chipsets.
I wish I am wrong so I can once more boot my beloved OS.
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Wayne, I agree with you that the A1 is not an embedded system (although I already know two companies which are going to use it in Linux server racks because of the low heat dissipation).
But we have to look at the bigger picture here: AmigaOS development cannot gone on solely on the basis of sales in the tiny desktop market which we only a consider as a stepping stone.
We are keenly eyeing the embedded multimedia systems market which is much, much larger and therefore potentially much more lucrative.
I'm thinking of things like kiosk systems, point of sale systems and STB's.
That's always been the middle to longer term goal.
There, the low footprint of the OS both in terms of memory usage and CPU requirements, it's near Real Time behavior, very fast booting times etc. are ke selling points, especially combined with the content available for it (which is far greater than the content for say QNX).
In this market the PPC CPU family can really shine, especially with IBM now even offering solutions in the low-end of the market which rival StrongARM and X-Scale based solutions in terms of performance and power-consumption.
Very concrete plans are under way in this area but I cannot comment any further at this stage.
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Man....
Got to love those Hyperion fellows. ;-)
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@HyperionMP
Deliver OS4 damn you!!!!!!!! :-D
<-- frustration starting to tell
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Yeah DagNabbit...
We know what you're hiding.
You've got the goods, and we want em.
Your aren't fooling anyone, buddy.
Give us the goods.
:-P
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Very concrete plans are under way in this area but I cannot comment any further at this stage.
GGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
We want some info and we want it now...
now...
NOWWWWWWW!!!!! (ripoff from the doors: when the musics over)
:python:
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What can I say other than .................
DITTO !!
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@HyperionMP
To put it frankly.. Great plans are nice to have but you need a *real* and sellable product to make it work out.
Ah, Reminding me of.. Could you confirm us that you are attending to CeBit and please give booth info so you can be found there.. ( it's a *** big show). :-D
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(in a very low key tone, mountain_myst begins to think to himself)
boy, I wished these pegasos people would all shut up.
I am so sick of hearing about morph this and morph that.
Who's mind are they trying to change anyway.
Just because they've been fooled into a bunch of hype, don't mean I'm going to be sucked in with them.
don't they know the freakin' thing hasn't even got a tcp/ip stack?
don't they know that the installer doesn't even work right on it.
I'm sure they know about all the crashes and horrible bugs in it.
well, they can't even use real code (so they say). they have to use a bunch of emulation code to reproduce the real thing which leads to a bunch of bloat and spaghetti coding.
while on the other hand, Hyperion has rights to the real code and can change it as they will.
this cuts down on the size of the code and makes it much faster and cleaner.
and they say that os4 has limitations.
heh.
wow, these people are strange....
so they make big deals with big companies, and say it's the biggest thing since coca cola.
man, i'm sick of hearing about all the big deals with all the big companies that lead to absolutely no where.
hmmm....
huh? ....
What?....
Oh, I was just talking to myself.
I didn't realize anyone was listening.
I'll try to not think so loud next time....
sorry. :-o
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(in a very low key tone, mountain_myst begins to think to himself)
Looks like we have a telekinetic link ... I have almost the same thoughts :-D
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@Mountain_Myst
And who was it who brought MOS into this thread ?
About your techno-babble :roflmao:
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Ummmm, I think he posted to the wrong thread, LOL!
But since he brought it up, seeing the Pegasos being offered for $299 instead of $499 or $800 sure is enough to make one stop and reconcider....Now, can they offer that price to everyone eventually??
Now, to get back on topic.... the AmigaOne XE.
Can Eyetech compete with this offer? Even Amiga coupon holders are not getting that nice of a deal (the $299 thing).
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It was in reference to what JoannaK had said.
Of course we have to spell all these things out to the Mos people I guess.
You see...
Ah, Reminding me of.. Could you confirm us that you are attending to CeBit and please give booth info so you can be found there.. ( it's a *** big show)
Then she had some sort of smiley face after that.
:-D
That little statement there was really saying...
Hey Hyperion...
Are you gonna be at the show with OS4?
Because we are!
Nana boo boo
I would expect more out of a man with your education.
But maybe, you just looked past it. ;-)
Oh yeah...
and about your funny clown avatar.
hahahahhaha!!!!!
(mountain_myst sticks his tongue out at the clown)
oh btw...
another one of JK's posts...
Some are waiting, some are not. It's all matter of personal preferences and needs. Personally I no longer consider OS4 to one of those major interests of mine. It may well be something someday, but at the moment it's yet another neat (but unproven) idea
Just another one of you Mos people hangin' round preaching the Gospel of "THE GREAT MORPHOS".
If you need anymore imformation that maybe you can't comprehend, feel free to ask me.
I'll be hangin' round.
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It was in reference to what JoannaK had said.
Of course we have to spell all these things out to the Mos people I guess.
Well, I'm not a MOS people, but I missed that little *** and it didn't even sink in what she was excluding. However, if Amiga don't make this show and bring something to the table at last for people to see, they are going to loose alot of supporters.
There was no need for Bill M. to say they would be there if they are not or cannot follow through with a product. And while I've bucked (no pun intended) for Amiga/Hyperion and Eyetech for along time now, I cannot overlook the progress Genesi seems to be displaying on nearly a daily basis. That says alot Mountain_Myst.
Genesi are doing all the right things for their product and their customer base. We who are waiting on Amiga should be so lucky. Maybe Amiga will surprise us, but I'm not having a good feeling about the Cebit thing. It needs to be answered by Amiga. They said they would be there with product, but their name doesn't even appear on the list of exhibitors. I don't think they should have to put out every little rumor that comes along, but this one needs to be addressed soon.
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Yeah, I can understand the frustration.
But I really don't see it as a big thing if Amiga Inc. doesn't make the show.
It'll come when it comes. (if it does)
I used to follow Amiga Inc. everywhere they went and preach OS4, but I don't anymore.
If OS4 does comes out, I really feel that It will be the binding tie for the new Amiga future.
But if it doesn't, I reckon it's time for me to move on to windows 2k and never look back.
I'm not impressed with the Genesi side of things, because it's the same thing it's always been.
I have nothing against Germany or that side of the world, but I really cannot stand for the way they do buisness.
I am sick of over priced 3rd party hardware with buggy drivers.
I could go on and on here, but I'm not.
I figure as soon as Genesi gets thier foot in the door, that's when thier true colors will show.
Been there and done that.
The whole Amiga Inc. picture, with the dongle and all, for the first time in years has me hoping for something fresh and new.
Something that programmers can actually make money on.
I could go on and on here, but I won't.
But anyway....
If OS4 comes out, I think it will surely be worth the wait.
As far as MorpOS.
Been there and done that.
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I used to follow Amiga Inc. everywhere they went and preach OS4, but I don't anymore.
I understand that too. That is why I want to see what comes out of the OS4 team before making any commitment. I've already got a PC, and Mac, (+A3000 too) and to be honest, it would be nice to move back to an Amiga environment for my main system. I've made a commitment in my mind to wait and see for both systems. Although, my tendencies are toward A1+OS4, I'm _trying_ to keep a more open mind now. That gets easier every day that goes by.
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Heh...
I hear ya :-)
Well, off to newegg.com for a while.
I'm in the middle of building a killer pc with windows2k.
The money that I was gonna spend on OS4.
But anyway...
Maybe I'll catch them later on.
Wished they could have had it out by the time my income taxes came in though. :-P
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Poster: Mountain_Myst Date: 2003/2/16 22:46:49
It was in reference to what JoannaK had said.
Of course we have to spell all these things out to the Mos people I guess.
You seem to take this so personal.. Why? :-?
And for your info... I have so far nothing invested to MOS/Pegasos. Genesi has promicing system but I have not yet purchased one. I may well do so soon, cause that price is *SO* good that it's quite hard to wait these 'official alternativies' much longer.
And waited I have.. Like many others, given them my money and my support to this company called AmigaInc. But as I have seen they can'd give anything back (except delays, excuses and lies) I don't belive they have much to give anymore.
I don't gospel about MOS greatness, if you really can't see that much you are truly blinded by your hate to other people... I have no daydreams of world domination nor 'heroic saving of community' like some people seem to have. It's nothing I'm after.. My interest is much simpler, I'm looking around system I can use. And if AmigaInc (or associates) can't deliver, I think I'm entitled to look for alternativies.
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ummm...
ok.
and btw...
I'm not a people hater.
nor do I hate you.
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That's amazing. He's still pushing the comparison between the crippled AMD Duron 1200 to the G4/800 as a good thing... Apples and Oranges.
yep agree atleast they should have used a athlon/pIII which is real CPUs... since duron is supposed to be a stripped down low cost model while g4 is supposed to be high cost model...
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@Mountain_Myst
I'm in the middle of building a killer pc with windows2k.
W2k and not WinXP? :-?
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I'm not impressed with the Genesi side of things, because it's the same thing it's always been.
What do you mean specifically?
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W2k and not WinXP?
Well, let me put it like this...
I wouldn't give you fifty cents for a full version of windows xp professional.
I think that says it clearly enough.
When I built my last computer, I said to myself....
I'm going to go out and get me a brand new upgrade to windows xp.
I was using 98 2nd edition at the time.
So I went out and bought a brand new upgrade.
Paid over one hundred american dollars for it.
There's one problem here now...
I build my own custom computers.
I format all the time.
I make system changes all the time.
I put various OS's on my computer sometimes, so I can boot whatever OS I want.
In other words...
I bought my computer parts custom from the case up.
Everything is hand picked exactly in the way that I want it.
I love the freedom of building my own computer.
That's where the problem came in.
Bill Gates doesn't see it the same way I do.
He thinks that even though I bought my own computer, it's not really my computer.
In other words....
You don't buy windows xp.
You rent it.
So...
To make a long story short...
After a few times of changing my system around and a few times of low level formating my drives, xp pops a message up that said, and I quote:
"The serial number that you are trying to enter has been used too many times.
You must enter another serial number in order to proceed with installation".
I then took the windows xp that I had paid over 100 dollars for, and gave it to my son.
Now everytime he formats and reinstalls, he has to get on the telephone and call microsoft to obtain 30 or 40 digits to enter in before he can install.
I installed 2k on mine, and I don't have to worry about the communistic rule of windows xp.
So now you know why I choose 2k over xp.