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Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS 4.x (future) Hardware Compatibility Discussions => Topic started by: trekiej on December 04, 2009, 03:22:22 AM
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I have heard that OS4.X is under powered on Sam 440.
On what do you think it should be run?
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It should be run on Macs to begin with.
The problem is not that OS4 is underpowered on SAMs, but the fact that the SAM is disgustingly expensive, and low powered, compared to its main rival, MorphOS.
The sad fact is that OS4 due to this, together with performance penalties and lack of features, it is notably loosing market share. Example: lack of USB 2.0 support and widely known bugs and crashes that are not quickly solved. It is that serious the situation, that AROS/IcAROS which has cheaper hardware and USB 2.0 support is even gaining territory, diminishing OS4 market share.
On the other hand, many classic 68k Amiga users, are reluctant to commit the huge amount of money on OS4, because it still lacks its "wow" factor, i mean OS4 is "just" good, and the hardware is a boring, unoriginal and underpowered PPC embedded design with the Amiga name on it. And of course, it has nothing to do with the original Amiga concept of innovation and/or great engineering.
My 2 cents
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I believe if the Sam440 could be low cost, it would not bother me if it was a niche. Low cost could mean more market penetration.
I bet Acube understands this.
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I agree, but then the SAM should cost less than say 300 EURO for me to think of it seriously!
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I was thinking $100.00 to $300.00 US.
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They should just port OS4.1 to all possible hardware, suchas MACs, just like MorphOS team is doing. Then more people would be able to buy the OS.
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As far as porting to other platforms, it would not bother me if they did.
Terra soft solutions has a nice rig, but out of my price range. I do not know if porting to Macs has any legal problems.
I do not see myself getting a mac anytime soon. I have 4 of them and 3 are ppc oldworld.
It would be nice to use them.
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As far as porting to other platforms, it would not bother me if they did.
Terra soft solutions has a nice rig, but out of my price range. I do not know if porting to Macs has any legal problems.
I do not see myself getting a mac anytime soon. I have 4 of them and 3 are ppc oldworld.
It would be nice to use them.
Why do ppl repeat this claim "porting to Mac has legal problems" that often? To my knowledge (well, biased from being within the EU) there is absolutely zilch probem. Apple can - to some extend - forbid that their software is used on other computers, but they cannot forbit that other OSes run on hardware tey build. Or is that different in other countries?
Wouldn't matter though, since the both Amigaish OS companies are EU based (MorphOS: Germny, OS4: Belgium).
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I think you are right. You can run what you want on your Mac.
The legal problem was before the end of the trial with Amiga.inc I think. Problem is off course, if MacOS4.1 appears nobody will buy Acube systems anymore.
Do not forget that AmigaOSx86 is already here and available. You can download it yourself, just search for Icaros/AROS on Google.
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I do not know if porting to Macs has any legal problems.
Unless if there is some DRM to circumvent to get your sw to run there is no problem. Macs don't have such DRM in place, and thus there is no problem. It's just like any other generic HW platform.
You must look elsewhere for reasons for the no show of the OS4 port.
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"I believe if the Sam440 could be low cost"
The Sam is already low cost. A new high end PPC system would easily cost around 1000€ and up.
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"I believe if the Sam440 could be low cost"
The Sam is already low cost. A new high end PPC system would easily cost around 1000€ and up.
Exactly.
It frustrates me no end when people say that the Sam is horrendously over-priced.
The problem is that people these days are spoiled by the massive economies of scale on PC hardware and think that therefore it should apply to minority hardware like the Sam.
PC motherboards cost $60 because they're made in their millions. How many Sams are produced? If the makers of the Sam want to recoup their costs they need a higher unit price. If they sell at the same price as PC motherboards they'd make a massive loss, as demand is tiny compared to the PC counterparts. So nobody would make Sam systems, and then people would complain and yell about there being no hardware.
It's basic supply and demand:
PC hardware: Very high demand so very high supply. Profit margins per unit are small but quantities are huge, so a profit is possible.
Amiga hardware: Very low demand so very low supply. Profit margins per unit need to be very large otherwise the total revenue wouldn't recoup the manufacturing and design costs.
The SAM is not over-priced for what it is. Ask any GCSE economist student. You want low-priced hardware? Then you have to buy what everyone else does, i.e. PC hardware.
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A new high end PPC system would easily cost around 1000€ and up.
The YDL power station costs $ 1250,-. That's € 830,-.
http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/powerstation/
And that is for a complete system, not just a mainboard.
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It frustrates me no end when people say that the Sam is horrendously over-priced.
I dont know but my Pegasos 2 G4 @ 1GHz did not cost as much as SAM.
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mmmMMMmmm that Powerstation would make a fantastic OS4 machine. Assuming OS4 could handle multiple cores (which I suspect it can't) - and assuming we had useful apps that made use of all that power. It certainly makes the SAM seem extortionately expensive though.
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I have heard that OS4.X is under powered on Sam 440.
* * On what do you think it should be run?
Amiga OS was, is and might always be underpowered. :rolleyes:
x303 :D :D :D
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I dont know but my Pegasos 2 G4 @ 1GHz did not cost as much as SAM.
I just did quick a good search and came up with this page:
http://www.osnews.com/comments/5493
Check the 5th comment down, labeled " Pricing is VERY high".
Pegasos was in exactly the same boat while it was being made. Also don't forget the Sam440ep comes with the CPU, 1/2GB RAM and a graphics card.
I'm not saying the Pegasos is overpriced, I'm just saying neither are exactly cheap, but for the same reasons.
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@spirantho
Yep. In the old days when Pegasos' and all AmigaOne incarnations were new, I found them really pricy - 'cos I did not have the money to buy them! This is the reason why I did not jump on one of the two NextGen Amiga trains back then - I couldn't afford it. BUT: I never ever complained about that prices in that days, 'cos to me they both had realistic pricing. And I still find this is true for an SAM as well - it is (my) luck, that I can afford this piece of HW now.
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I just did quick a good search and came up with this page:
http://www.osnews.com/comments/5493
Check the 5th comment down, labeled " Pricing is VERY high".
Pegasos was in exactly the same boat while it was being made. Also don't forget the Sam440ep comes with the CPU, 1/2GB RAM and a graphics card.
I'm not saying the Pegasos is overpriced, I'm just saying neither are exactly cheap, but for the same reasons.
Pegasos indeed was not cheap. It was too expensive and I could not afford it. Luckily I got it for free ;-)
Btw. Pegasos I/II came with the CPU. No RAM nor gfx card but those cost nothing for Pegasos II. Pegasos I used expensive and rare registered SDRAM.
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I have heard that OS4.X is under powered on Sam 440.
On what do you think it should be run?
Runs fine on an AmigaOne 600MHz G3, so it should probably run well (performance-wise, at least) on a Sam, which has slightly higher specs.
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mmmMMMmmm that Powerstation would make a fantastic OS4 machine. Assuming OS4 could handle multiple cores (which I suspect it can't) - and assuming we had useful apps that made use of all that power. It certainly makes the SAM seem extortionately expensive though.
I'd imagine the Powerstation would sell many more units than the SAM, allowing slightly better economies of scale than ACube get from the SAM boards. A complete SAM system, while much less powerful, starts at €719 which isn't all that bad for a system that hopes to sell a few thousand units at best! Currently OS4 does not support multiple cores/CPUs, but it is planned for a future update to the OS. This kind of support requires a great deal of work on the OS at a very low level, so it won't be today or tomorrow, but it'll come...
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@itix: last time pegasos2 was available at gss data, it was around 850 euro, complete system.
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I have heard that OS4.X is under powered on Sam 440.
It's indeed a very weak CPU. OS4 can run on it without the OS feeling sluggish though (which is something often pointed out), but that's only because it is a lean OS, not because it's a strong engine under the hood. Your need for a strong engine comes from the *applications*.
On what do you think it should be run?
If you'd like to enjoy media files, browse those little more complex web pages, run legacy 68k applications or other emulated software, compile stuff, render stuff, etc, then you don't want anything less than a real G4. Especially since G4 hardware is so darn cheap and easy to get today.
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@itix: last time pegasos2 was available at gss data, it was around 850 euro, complete system.
Yep. Expensive.
At AmigaKit complete systems:
SAM 440EP 553MHz: 700e
SAM 440EP 667MHz: 800e
SAM FLEX 733MHz: 750e
Flex is affordable but you probably would not want to go for it after Peg2.
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Yep, the specs of a SAM board are about those of an iPhone or iPod. Compare the price of a netbook which is a single core system running at twice the clock rate and you see what we mean by overpriced.
Until they can get price performance at least down to Mac standards it's hard to justify buying a SAM...
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I totally agree that the Pegasos when released was really pricey, but then how long ago was that. I mean, a lot of time has passed since then...
So when the Pegasos was released it was then at NEARLY the same technlogical pace as mainstream ppc development.
So make yourself this question: Is a 533-733 Mhz PPC motherboard in the year 2009 worth 700 EURO?
This is not about economy of scale! It is about selling overpriced products in a niche market(Amiga), which are remanent stock of other markets, in this case the embedded market.
Economy of scale is the excuse they told you, so you can mentally cope with extremely high prices. Simple proof you are wrong: The Efika motherboard, still selling, with a markup for the retailer (http://www.directron.com) is a 400MHZ PPC design at 66 EURO. So how on earth is it possible that a 533MHZ PPC design (SAM440), costs 700 EURO?
Its hilarious!
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@itix: last time pegasos2 was available at gss data, it was around 850 euro, complete system.
GGS Data were extremely nice to deal with, and I did much business with Gunne for this reason, but they were never competitive in price, especially not on *systems* (due to their high prices on parts), and especially not with Sweden's 25% VAT included (highest in Europe?).
Open Desktop Workstation, $799 (~530 EUR in todays rate):
* Pegasos II with 1GHz G4 processor
* 512MB DDR RAM
* 80GB ATA100 Hard Disk
* Dual-Layer DVD±RW Drive
* ATI Radeon 9250 graphics
* Low Profile Small Footprint Case
Link (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=835)
The Pegasos2 motherboard with G4 CPU @ 1GHz was AFAIK introduced at $499 (~330 EUR in todays rate). The price dropped slightly over time, and when it reached the end of line, the last Pegasos2+G4 was sold at $399 (~260 EUR).
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"I believe if the Sam440 could be low cost"
The Sam is already low cost. A new high end PPC system would easily cost around 1000€ and up.
Sam is low cost? Huh?
OK, let's make a comparison on what you can get today if you want a NG system (HW+OS):
Cheapest "G2" class systems (new from dealers, with warranty)
OS4
Cheapest Sam440ep kit at Vesalia (incl. OS4): 700 EUR
Cheapest Sam440flex kit at Vesalia (inlc. OS4): 750 EUR
MorphOS
Cheapest Efika system: Efika kit (MB + *the Official* case, incl. PicoPSU) at directron.com: $170 USD + XGI GFX ($40) + 80GB HDD ($50): 175 EUR
MorphOS 2.4 for this: 150 EUR
Sums up to a total of: 325 EUR
Seems like MorphOS+Efika wins the "G2" class price comparison.
Cheapest G4 class systems (second hand only)
OS4
OS4 for Pegasos 2 at Vesalia: 125 EUR
Second hand Pegasos 2 G4 system: 350-450 EUR
Grand total for OS4 and Pegasos2 system: 475-575 EUR
MorphOS
A second hand Mac Mini: 150-250 EUR
MorphOS 2.4 for this: 150 EUR
Sums up to a total of: 300-400 EUR
Seems like MorphOS+Mac Mini wins the G4 class price comparison.
Two notes about the Sam:
1) Despite its price, it offers a performance level comparable to common PDA's.
2) You can get *two* complete Mac Mini + MorphOS (registered) systems for the price of one Sam+OS4 system, and *each one* of the former will be *so much more* useful!
And this is today.
Soon there will also be MorphOS for PowerMac G4's, pushing the prices down even more (or increasing performance even more, and specs/expandability).
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I just did quick a good search and came up with this page:
http://www.osnews.com/comments/5493
Check the 5th comment down, labeled " Pricing is VERY high".
Pegasos was in exactly the same boat while it was being made. Also don't forget the Sam440ep comes with the CPU, 1/2GB RAM and a graphics card.
I'm not saying the Pegasos is overpriced, I'm just saying neither are exactly cheap, but for the same reasons.
Well, the PegasosII G3 was 299 EUR. Add about 150-200 for hdd, case, and gfx and RAM ad hou have ended a bit below 500 EUR. About 5 years ago!
Yes, it was not the cheapest computer ever around, but definitely that "new Amiga" with the best price/performance ratio we've seen since the demise of C=.
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Sam is low cost? Huh?
OK, let's make a comparison on what you can get today if you want a NG system (HW+OS):
Cheapest "G2" class systems (new from dealers, with warranty)
OS4
Cheapest Sam440ep kit at Vesalia (incl. OS4): 700 EUR
Cheapest Sam440flex kit at Vesalia (inlc. OS4): 750 EUR
MorphOS
Cheapest Efika system: Efika kit (MB + *the Official* case, incl. PicoPSU) at directron.com: $170 USD + XGI GFX ($40) + 80GB HDD ($50): 175 EUR
MorphOS 2.4 for this: 150 EUR
Sums up to a total of: 325 EUR
Seems like MorphOS+Efika wins the "G2" class price comparison.
Cheapest G4 class systems (second hand only)
OS4
OS4 for Pegasos 2 at Vesalia: 125 EUR
Second hand Pegasos 2 G4 system: 350-450 EUR
Grand total for OS4 and Pegasos2 system: 475-575 EUR
MorphOS
A second hand Mac Mini: 150-250 EUR
MorphOS 2.4 for this: 150 EUR
Sums up to a total of: 300-400 EUR
Seems like MorphOS+Mac Mini wins the G4 class price comparison.
Two notes about the Sam:
1) Despite its price, it offers a performance level comparable to common PDA's.
2) You can get *two* complete Mac Mini + MorphOS (registered) systems for the price of one Sam+OS4 system, and *each one* of the former will be *so much more* useful!
And this is today.
Soon there will also be MorphOS for PowerMac G4's, pushing the prices down even more (or increasing performance even more, and specs/expandability).
LO! you never cease to amaze me! what a clown!
(Moderator Note : *You could have countered. This is a discussion. Refrain from the name calling.*)
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"I believe if the Sam440 could be low cost"
The Sam is already low cost. A new high end PPC system would easily cost around 1000€ and up.
Sam is low cost? Huh?
OK, let's make a comparison on what you can get today if you want a NG system (HW+OS):
Cheapest "G2" class systems (new from dealers, with warranty)
OS4
Cheapest Sam440ep kit at Vesalia (incl. OS4): 700 EUR
Cheapest Sam440flex kit at Vesalia (inlc. OS4): 750 EUR
As additional reference: the Fixstars PowerStation (QuadCore *G5*) is $1250 (~830 EUR), and *even that* is considered expensive for its performance by some...
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LO! you never cease to amaze me! what a clown!
Feel free to comment what I say instead of descending to pointless name calling.
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me commenting the crap your still writing since years? no way .... at best, your good for a laugh or 2.
(Moderator Note : *Try some constructive criticism and avoid the outright slams. *)
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me commenting the crap your still writing since years? no way .... at best, your good for a laugh or 2.
Sorry you don't like my message, but hey, at least I'm glad to be able to amuse you! :-)
But where is the crap?
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Until they can get price performance at least down to Mac standards it's hard to justify buying a SAM...
How can they possibly get the price-performance ratio down to the levels Apple are at, when they are selling what, ten thousand times fewer units than Apple?? It's a complete guess, but I reckon for every SAM sold, at least 10,000 Macs ship. That makes a whopping difference that simply can't be made up just by wishing for it.
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Sam is low cost? Huh?
OK, let's make a comparison on what you can get today if you want a NG system (HW+OS):
Cheapest "G2" class systems (new from dealers, with warranty)
OS4
Cheapest Sam440ep kit at Vesalia (incl. OS4): 700 EUR
Cheapest Sam440flex kit at Vesalia (inlc. OS4): 750 EUR
MorphOS
Cheapest Efika system: Efika kit (MB + *the Official* case, incl. PicoPSU) at directron.com: $170 USD + XGI GFX ($40) + 80GB HDD ($50): 175 EUR
MorphOS 2.4 for this: 150 EUR
Sums up to a total of: 325 EUR
Seems like MorphOS+Efika wins the "G2" class price comparison.
Cheapest G4 class systems (second hand only)
OS4
OS4 for Pegasos 2 at Vesalia: 125 EUR
Second hand Pegasos 2 G4 system: 350-450 EUR
Grand total for OS4 and Pegasos2 system: 475-575 EUR
MorphOS
A second hand Mac Mini: 150-250 EUR
MorphOS 2.4 for this: 150 EUR
Sums up to a total of: 300-400 EUR
Seems like MorphOS+Mac Mini wins the G4 class price comparison.
Two notes about the Sam:
1) Despite its price, it offers a performance level comparable to common PDA's.
2) You can get *two* complete Mac Mini + MorphOS (registered) systems for the price of one Sam+OS4 system, and *each one* of the former will be *so much more* useful!
And this is today.
Soon there will also be MorphOS for PowerMac G4's, pushing the prices down even more (or increasing performance even more, and specs/expandability).
I love the way you comparing the pegII an AOS4 against the MAc and MorphOS. I dont car either way these arguments are always silly. But want the PegII a board for running morphOS originally.
And Efika come on that is not much use for anything. As expensive as the SAM is its still better that that pile of sh1t.
But as I said I think SAM is overpriced. The Mac is second hand hardware. Both sides are screwed
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How can they possibly get the price-performance ratio down to the levels Apple are at, when they are selling what, ten thousand times fewer units than Apple?? It's a complete guess, but I reckon for every SAM sold, at least 10,000 Macs ship. That makes a whopping difference that simply can't be made up just by wishing for it.
The Pegasos was never as expensive as the SAM, yet so much more powerful, and they never came close to Apple volumes either.
The Sam price is a result of design decisions, management and business skills.
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The Pegasos was never as expensive as the SAM, yet so much more powerful, and they never came close to Apple volumes either.
The Sam price is a result of design decisions, management and business skills.
I totally agree on this one.
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Well, the PegasosII G3 was 299 EUR. Add about 150-200 for hdd, case, and gfx and RAM ad hou have ended a bit below 500 EUR. About 5 years ago!
I checked via wayback machine and in 2005 you could buy Peg2/G4 complete system for 700e.
http://web.archive.org/web/20051118195558/http://www.vesalia.de/e_pegasos2.htm
But I recall there were initially higher prices, something like 500e for G3 and 700e for G4 (motherboard and CPU module only). I could not find references other than a price reduction annoucement from Genesi in 2005.
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I love the way you comparing the pegII an AOS4 against the MAc and MorphOS.
Yes indeed, only second hand HW is available today for both OS4 and MorphOS if you want G4 class HW, hence I compared the best available options for both systems.
And Efika come on that is not much use for anything. As expensive as the SAM is its still better that that pile of sh1t.
I know perfectly well that the Efika has less controllers, connectors and expandability options than the Sam, but this is the only HW in the "G2" class that MorphOS runs on. And even though its more limited in its specs, it *sure can* be used for lots of things. And it's obviously *not* as expensive as the Sam, it's less than half the price.
Question is though, who would buy any "G2" HW at the cost of an Efika, when you can get a G4 system that completely *crushes it* performance wise, for about the same money...?
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I checked via wayback machine and in 2005 you could buy Peg2/G4 complete system for 700e.
http://web.archive.org/web/20051118195558/http://www.vesalia.de/e_pegasos2.htm
But I recall there were initially higher prices, something like 500e for G3 and 700e for G4 (motherboard and CPU module only). I could not find references other than a price reduction annoucement from Genesi in 2005.
Your link lists PegII G4 systems oly. The G4 was listed @ 480 EUR, the G3/600 came down to 299.
The Peg 1 G3 was 480 EUR initially (IIRC, at least that's what I paid back in 2002). All prices excl. VAT.
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me commenting the crap your still writing since years? no way .... at best, your good for a laugh or 2.
All - This is the only notice this thread will get...
Keep on topic, leave out the personal attack(s) or I will lock this thread. Enough said...
Regards,
ltstanfo
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Ultimately there is only one way to low cost hardware:
AmiTel or Amiga Intel,
but sadly that isn't going to happen...