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Author Topic: Barry Altman and Commodore USA  (Read 65074 times)

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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« on: September 02, 2010, 05:04:10 AM »
After a few vitriolic message from me and couple sent back, I've agreed to call Mr. Altman tomorrow to discuss his company at its business plans.
Many of you know me and opinions about this company and its plans from postings I've made in response to the messages posted about Commodore USA.

So, to say the least, this may be a somewhat contentious conversation. However, Barry's of the opinion that if I give him a fair hearing I'll be swayed by what he has to say.

So, now is your chance, folks. If there's anything you think I ought to ask, post it now.
I'll try to have a concise outline of what I want to cover when I talk to him.

I'll post a summary of our conversation tomorrow.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 08:39:05 PM »
OK folks, here it is:

I spent a little less than an hour talking to Barry Altman today. As we already know, Commodore USA, LLC is a legitimate Florida corporation.

They do have one product to sell currently named "Phoenix" which he admits is basically the same as a similar computer sold by Cybernet.

Yes, he does own a company that imports and distributes bathroom vanities. But he isn't trying to hide this, any other facts relevant to himself or Commodore USA from anyone. In fact he's encouraged anyone interested in a civil conversation to contact him and he's more than willing to provide answers to any questions you have. In his words "I don't lie, I don't bullsh*t".

He also admits that the website, in his own words, is "fu*king awful" and is currently considering ways to improve it. He claims that he used of images he didn't create, after searches to find the content owner were friutless, and that he would still like to contact the images' creator.

He does seem serious about the PC64 (which is just in the beginning of its design) and an X86 Amiga (for which rights have just been secured), but he's a little disturbed by some of the negative posts he's read.

With a background in business, I can understand part of his confusion. Some of you responding are just thrilled to see these names back in production again. Others have a lot of bagage due to past unfullfilled promises and the understandable concern that this might just be a con (like so many other announcements in the past). Some of the comments from this side have been pretty extreme.

Well, it doesn't appear to be a con. And when you think about it he has a point, how (considering the small size of our market) would he profit from that? No, Altman appears to just be a savvy businessman who recognizes that the Commodore name still has brand recognition.

I can't fault his logic on the decision to license the Commodore name. As to Amiga, well if Bill McEwen still has the right to sell the name, then this was probably inevitable. Frankly, I wish Hyperion and A-eon luck, but their market is focused on us (the hobbyists). Currently a PPC based AOS powered system isn't a product for the average consumer. Altman isn't pushing any alternative system. He stated that he uses Linux, but was concerned about AROS' viability as a product for the consumer market. Further he stated the Commodore USA products would also support Windows (and that OSX might even be a possibility - for the consumer, I don't think he wants to worry about issues revolving around installing that).

I have about three pages of notes. This covers some major points, not all of them though. If you've got any specific points, I can try to address them OR you can take them directly to Barry.

Hey, I'm not concerned with the label on my PC, but some of you might be. Any of you AROS users that may want a sense of validation, you may be able to run your OS on a Commodore branded Amiga PC soon. And C64 fans, your going to get one serious unusual Christmas gift - a PC in a C64 shell. That'll confuse your family, friends and associates.

I'm sure there's more to come on this. So, as Redrumloa has pointed out, we need to remain calm, polite, and have some perspective. These announcements aren't the end of the world. AROS may now have something/someone in their corner that strengthens their position (whoever is in charge - you ought to contact Altman). The rest of us, were hardly going to be damaged by someone who can afford to pick these brands a run with them.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 08:42:33 PM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2010, 12:12:53 AM »
Quote from: mongo;577399
Barry's business practices seem to be less than honest.

For example :

http://www.commodoreusa.citymax.com/f/PHOENIXGUIDE__copy.doc.pdf

http://ftp://209.35.190.68/ZPC9100%20V%201.02%20DRIVERS/ZPC9100_Manual.pdf

You can clearly see "ZPC9100" on the motherboard picture in the instructions for installing the memory in the Commodore USA Phoenix manual.

Yes, I probably should  have mentioned that in my posting, since he brought that up. The Phoenix is essentially the same as the Cybernet computer.

So, I'd have to say, not only are you right but that the pictures in both manuals appear to be exactly the same.

I don't think he'd deny that. Especially since you can compare the two documents and see where the Commodore document uses the same photos as the Cybernet document. Since both are copyrighted, unless Cybernet has a problem with this its not really an issue.

The issue is whether or not the PC 64 gets built. The Amiga could be assembled from standard computer parts, in fact could be purchased whole from another company. However, the C64's case isn't going to appear in anyone else's product. Now, if he manages to present this product for sale, he'll have at least proven he can offer something unique.

I'll give him till Christmas, and maybe even a little longer, but if he can't produce what he's announced then he's dishonest. Until then, he's just doing what plenty of other small computer resellers do.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2010, 01:14:44 AM »
Quote from: tone007;577429
Commodore and Amiga were something original and different. Taking run of the mill PCs that don't do anything that any other PC on the market (from established vendors with real reputations and real support) can do and branding them Commodore/Amiga to play on the fond memories people have of the names from their early computing experiences (the "good old days" which most seem so eager to reclaim) for nothing but profit is very lame.

Bring on the original product, even if it's only a replica C64 case.  At least that'd show a bit more effort than doing some paperwork and ordering generic computers.

Yes, this is not your father's Commodore. And even if Altman can get the PC 64 ready for sale, its not my cup of tea. But, the introduction of that product will require some creative work. He'll sell a few of those even if it is just a PC.

Is it a legitimate business? Sure appears to be. As he pointed out to me, he is in business to generate a profit (this is a reasonable, hell essential, goal for any business). So why would anyone think its a con? How would he profit from that? He's not asking anyone for money up front and while he may have made these product announcements prematurely, you have to give him credit for one thing. He got the right to use those two trademarks. No one else even considered the possibility.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2010, 02:25:04 AM »
Quote from: tone007;577445
..right.  I can think of a couple.  They just all happened to fail!

This could fail too. Most new business' fail. It doesn't mean he hasn't got the right to try. Especially if he's negotiated the rights to use the trademarks and the only funds hes risking are his own.

The last attempt to resurrect Indian Motorcycles in the US failed. Someone else will probably try it again in the future. These things happen.

What if he succeeds?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2010, 03:59:04 AM »
Quote from: tone007;577459
Then people will have PCs with Commodore logos on them and he'll get his new sports car.

I couldn't really care less whether or not he got the rights to do it legally, but provided he does of course he has the right to try.  The basic idea of throwing a Commodore or Amiga logo on some generic piece of hardware that doesn't do anything different than any other is just cheesy.

You may have noticed my signature contains a couple of "Commodore" items that are rebranded imports.  I happily bought them for far less than retail value for a laugh when the vendor who was attempting to market them stopped for whatever reason.  Should that happen in this case, I can't say I won't be tempted again!

Yeah, the Commodore netbooks threw me. And in never said the rebranded hardware didn't have a cheese factor.
If you're tech savvy, buying an Intel 915 based Socket 775 system (like the Phoenix) wouldn't have much attraction.
But there's going to be people who snap up the PC 64's just for the nostalgia and the fun of screwing with others' heads.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2010, 06:15:17 PM »
Quote from: HammerD;577535
Iggy, did you ask him anything about:

1) How many employees C= USA has?
2) Does he plan to do any SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT for AROS? Or in any other way to support and promote it?

He's bought the C= name, the Amiga name rights, and plans to sell x86 boxes in old C= style cases and throw on bundled OS's.   Not very exciting and not interesting if he doesn't plan to support and augment AROS development.

Now there's a couple of good questions. I've been trying to think of them myself without getting blindsided by my own sentiment.
First, no the company does not have a lot of employees (but then neither does A-eon). Altman's other business does have a large warehouse, office space, and employees to help move stock.
At this point, I don't think he needs that many people.
He is interested in AROS, and must have tried it since he mentioned that sound doesn't work properly on his current system.
He also asked my how long I thought it would take to get AROS up to the level where it could be sold in a commercial product. That question's difficult to answer. I'm not comfortable with the idea, since I feel that selling AROS in its current state might lead to product returns.
Altman does seem interested in seeing AROS move forward. I think he's a little  wary since he approached one developer about the sound drivers and was quoted a pretty large sum.
But if whomever is in charge in the AROS project were to contact him, they could probably establish a relationship.

Now, as to the one post that stated that Winboxes could do want they wanted. If you can't do it under Windows, what platform can you do it under? And what is IT?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2010, 11:41:10 PM »
I'd like to hear more from the iMica's creator, since I don't like be deceived and don't want to repeat a falsehood if that's whats been relayed to me.
 
I'd also encourage any of you that feel like continuing to support alternative systems to continue to do so.
 
I, personally don't care about the Amiga trademark. To me Amiga and Commodore are long dead entities.
I'm sure that any of you that are familiar with me will remember that I use and will continue to support MorphOS.
 
I really don't see these developments affecting those of us already focused on our own interests.
 
Regardless of our opinions, needs, or desires I don't think Altman considers us to be a major part of his potential customer pool. There just aren't that many of us.
 
Again, I would like to hear from others with experience with Altman or CUSA. If you're worried about posting for everyone, PM me and we can discuss this.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2010, 12:35:53 AM »
Quote from: Plaz;577629
I've got a spare IBM E serise PowerPC server, can some one get OS4 to run on that? That would get some attention.
 
Plaz

Offer it to the MorphOS development team, they do MOS ports to some outlandish hardware at times.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 09:44:41 PM »
CUSA's websitehas been redesigned.
The website looks much better and now has pictures of the new Amiga and PC64 models.

Youn can find it at:

http://www.commodoreusa.net/home.html

Edit - Corrections made it deference to Piru, who is right, many of the controversial images still remain.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 11:01:33 PM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 04:31:07 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;641829
It's on schedule and rocking!

What a remarkable non-answer!
Where is it again?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2011, 02:02:22 AM »
Quote from: dammy;641939
Actually, this thread was started by Iggy: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=577251&postcount=1 so you are wrong again.  You sure aren't doing well today, are you.

Actually, dammy is right. I started the thread. And even though he and I would be at odds over some things (the president for instance), I think we both agree on one point. Barry Altman and C=USA ought to be given a chance before they are written off.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 03:59:15 PM »
Quote from: Darrin;671600
...To be fair, this was in their very early days when they probably hoped to use AROS on their C64x.  Shortly after they got into a pissing match over it and stated that AROS wasn't suitable (in other words, they couldn't get it for free or have people work on drivers for free).

Actually, that's not fair.
I talked to Barry when he was still considering AROS and he asked me what I thought.
I (and others) told him it wasn't complete and stable enough.

Come on guys. Its neat for us hobbyists, but it hasn't reached 1.0 status yet.
When AROS is no longer in alpha or beta status, then may it would be worth shipping with a computer system that you could rely on not crashing.

People don't want to buy computers that can be assured to crash.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 04:20:20 PM »
I'm not going to ask for permission to offer my opinion about AROS.
And anyone that has used it (or tried to use it) knows its not ready for prime time.

BTW - I invested in a system to run AROS and think its a great hobbyist OS.

I guess I ought to add the specs of that system to my signature.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Barry Altman and Commodore USA
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 06:41:18 PM »
Quote from: Darrin;681119
I can't believe this old thread was dug up (That comment was made in Decemeber).

My point (back then) was that AROS needed funding, but unlike other people who paid for drivers, Barry wasn't going to spend a single penny.  Of course AROS needs work to go mainstream, but CUSA were not prepared to pay for it.  I guess an existing Linux distro with some icons and wallpaper added is the next cheapest alternative.

In fairness, I will add that if I was in Barry's shoes and I was selling a computer with an OS to the mass market, then I would want either a "market ready" OS installed or to be in complete control of whatever alternative custom OS I was going to use.  To market an incomplete system and then have the people you were depending on for further development decide to give up or become uncooperative.  Personally, I'm wondering legally where he stands on providing (or rather not providing) Linux (sorry, COS) support.

Thanks Darrin,
Your clarification of your point makes perfect sense.
And I too wonder about the legality of distributing a modified Linux distro (by a for profit entity).

Quote from: Terminills;681126
I find AROS ABIv1 to be very stable. :P

That's not the point. even AROS.org doesn't recommend the OS for critical operations.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"