To all of you AmigaXL/Amithlon users

[bhoggett]

Balti wrote:
@illwrath

AFAIK Bernie (and Harald for sure) did and does get his money, while the whole situation between H&P and AInc is completly unclear.

And yes I do know Bill's statement, but I see no reason why I should trust him more (or less) than Mr Haage on this subject.

Leaving aside no less than three licenses/contracts that are under dispute in the current AmigaOS XL package (Amiga Inc's IP, Bernie's IP and AmiTCP), this still leaves one issue on which H&P are in blatant breach of license: The AmigaXL GPL license.

The AmigaXL executable was supposed to be released under the GPL, but none of the source distributions H&P have put out (three so far) have actually matched the executable. Since they were given plenty of time to comply with the GPL, and were asked repeatedly to do so without success, their license contract was terminated in accordance to the GPL by the copyright holder. This means that aside from any other problems, any copies of AmigaXL that are now being distributed are actually illegal.

[bhoggett]

@Balti

I'm 99.99999% sure that if Bernie would be allowed to continue Amithlon in every way he wants and is capable off then it would have far more future than AOS4 and MOS together.

A controversial opinion, but one which I share.

But it should be clear by now, that this won't happen

As I write, I'm 99.99999% sure you're right. We'll know very soon how this is going to end.

[bhoggett]

It would have a market maybe, but not a future. The two are not the same.

You spoke to the folks at Amiga Inc and they told you this, right?

Actually, you haven't spoken to anybody and you're just spouting your usual hate-filled ignorant claptrap.

(hint: I have spoken to people at Amiga Inc, and their plans for it are far more extensive than your puny mind would be prepared to accept.)

[bhoggett]

@ne_one

Ok Bill, spill the beans!  :-D

Wait, let me guess... you could tell us, but then you'd have to kill us? Argh.

Well, yes.  :-)

Can you at least tell us if these plans are still in the works and if they are encouraging to both Bernie and the community?

The plans are dependent on Bernie releasing his product. If that happens then yes, the plans - or at least those I know about - are encouraging to most people, though there will be those who would choke on their cornflakes if they were to be told about them now.

You mentioned previously that there was a high degree of certainty that Amithlon was a dead issue but under Amiga's direction wouldn't it be viable in a new form as either an emulator or the basis of an x86  version of the OS?

The problem is simply that if Bernie decides he's had enough the project is dead in the water. The viability is not in question, and never was. Even without Amiga Inc's plans viabilty was very good, and it would have attracted more users and made more money than AOS4 and MOS put together. With the plans I heard about it would have been even better, but the fact is that Bernie staying in the market is now a very unlikely scenario. We'll know shortly.

[bhoggett]

@Desolator

Couldn't someone else or even a group of old Amiga veterans take over the project (and hopefully manage to get the licenses and things that is needed.) if he decides he's had enough? There must be some people that has the talent to continue this great product. (Amiga.Inc.. nah, but that would be great.

I don't see that happening. Bernie would be mothballing the project, not abandoning it. So you'd not only need to get together enough skilled people to understand his work and take it forward, but you'd also need to find the funding to buy his IP off him. Considering the way he's been treated, he might not be too keen on selling, specially as legal action would follow his departure.

[bhoggett]

@JoNty

What can I say? I'm pro AmigaOne/OS 4. I have absolutely nothing against emulation, but I just can't see how people can use Amithlon/XL and say they support the Amiga at the same time, and there are some who claim they do.

Who's to say that your vision of what Amiga should be is also their vision?

The truth is that many people who say they are supporting the Amiga are in fact just supporting what *they* want, without caring a fig what Amiga might want.

[bhoggett]

@ne_one

Hmm... is there any reason why Bernie couldn't avoid all the Amithlon issues and pursue this opportunity separately or are they intertwined somehow?

The issues are not the major problem. The hassle surrounding them is another matter.

Throw us a frickin' bone here mang! ;-) I really can't imagine anything other than a native x86 version of the OS being viable and able to attract more users.

Say it! lol

To quote Hyperion "there will be no AmigaOS4 for x86".

I'm tempted to say more, but I won't.

Still the same old legal obstacles? Or does he just need a group hug?!  8-)

If only it was that easy. The trouble is that when you get "stalked" by people set to abuse you, including mid-night telephone calls, when your health and relationships start to suffer badly, you think twice if it's all worth it, specially when in a market where material gains are pretty minimal anyway.

Basically, there's a level of abuse which is too much for anyone, and some people in the Amiga market have no limits when it comes to using such tactics.

Until the market cleans up the corruption that pervades it from top to bottom, it will keep losing the best talent until all that's left are the crooks and charlatans.

[bhoggett]

@ne_one

Ah yes... meaning: Hyperion will not be the principals behind an x86 version of OS4.0. After all, these lads are rather pooped after working so tirelessly on porting and extending the PPC version. But... that doesn't mean it won't happen.

It won't happen as long as Hyperion control the source code and the contracts. In order for it to happen, Amiga Inc would have to buy back the rights and the find someone to do the work. I wouldn't hold my breath...

C'mon tell us that Amiga would like to use Bernie's technology as the basis of an x86 solution. We dare ya!

Well, in the long term their x86 solution is supposed to be the mythical OS5 - although I suspect my kids will have grandchildren of their own before that becomes reality, and I don't even have any yet.

In the short term, sure they want to base a number of x86 products on Bernie's work, and they want to make it easy for developers doing OS4 software to port it to Am*thlon 2 so that they can aim at a bigger market overall. Yes, certain things have been proposed and certain people have agreed to co-operate in principle, but nothing's going to happen unless Bernie feels he's clear of the c##p and free to release his product without his life being ripped apart. There's no point going into details if doing so will merely serve to stir up controversy.

I'll only say this: If the new version is released, it will have a promising future for at least as long as AOS4 can be said to have a future. And yes, I do mean a future, despite the rantings of our resident scots troll.

That is indeed a shame. We all deserve better, including Bernie.

Yes, we do, but the people at the top are too afraid to get heavy with anyone in case their own transgressions get aired as retaliation, and the little folk are so desperate to keep the illusion of an active market that they make excuses for the transgressors instead of going after them with pitchforks. The result is that the Amiga market becomes more like a cesspit every year.

[bhoggett]

@ne_one

Eek... you mean the OS4 development is completely closed?

Effectively yes, though you could mention some exceptions like Olaf's Roadshow TCP/IP stack. Other stuff, however, is excusively licensed to AmigaOS4, and Hyperion hold those contracts, not Amiga Inc.

You are a dour one aren't you?

When it comes to talk about OS5, yes. I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to deliver at all, never mind according to their laughable schedule.

Who exactly is holding Amithlon up anyway?

That one's easy: Haage & Partner and Harald Frank.

Or at least, which components of the technology are in question?

The original delay was about the P96 license. However, political and legal games have now made that issue almost irrelevant.

True. But you're welcome to provide vaguely disguised hints of what you think would be viable.

"Something in-between".

Make of that what you will.  :-P

[bhoggett]

@ne_one

Interesting. It's now quite obvious that interest in the classic OS was an afterthought. One really has to wonder how OS5 could evolve without using OS4 as the foundation.

Don't ask me. I've no idea. As far as I can tell, the whole "project" is completely rudderless, heading wherever the prevailing wind gets to push it.

So we can likely infer from this that the issue is not concerning Bernie and H&P but rather Amiga and H&P?

No, that would be wrong. The dispute between H&P and Amiga Inc is a side issue.

Hmm... a microwave that plays Planet Zed?

Yea! How did you know?  :-o

(only joking. Thendic have got the rights to that one first!)

[bhoggett]

@ruben

This was probably asked before, but is it out of the question to do a PPC emulator for x86, and allow OS4 to be run the same way OS3 is run with Amithlon?

Yes, this has been raised before, ever since Amithlon was first released as it happens. The short answer is no, it's not going to happen because it's not viable. The reasons are technical, financial and probably political too. Careful scrutiny of the Amithlon mailing list will probably reveal a number of threads on this subject and Bernie's assessment of the situation.


@ne_one

I've seen this mentioned a number of times so I'm now curious: how exactly can you create x86-native versions of Amiga applications? Or am I misreading the claims of programs like fxPaint?

No, you're not misreading them. AFAIK, IOspirit are the only company so far to take advantage of this feature in commercial applications (fxScan and fxPaint). Then again, there haven't been that many commercial AmigaOS applications released in the last 12 months anyway - I guess everyone is waiting for AOS4.

Amithlon can run x86 ELF binaries. This is technically one of the nicest parts of Amithlon, because it works really well. There are basically two ways of doing this:

(a) you can produce code on Linux and then compile it to an x86 ELF object, then use a 68k AmigaOS program to call the x86 functions. Examples of how this is done are on the CD, including all needed headers etc. This is also how MagicMenu added Amithlon support in v2.34.

(b) you can use the GCC cross compiler in x86 Linux (by Martin Blom) or in 68k AmigaOS (Jens Langner) to compile the programs to x86 code rather than 68k code. Endian issues are handled automatically. To run these, you either supply the program name as an argument to a loader program called run_elf, or better still, use run_elf to patch the system so that the x86 programs are run transparently. You can make calls from the x86 program to 68k library functions as normal. I've been able to recompile some simple examples of 68k code from the RKMs to x86 without changing anything at all, and then ran them successfully.

Basically, if your code compiles with GCC, it's not a tricky task. If it's SAS/C or DICE etc, then it needs to be converted to compile with GCC first, which can be messy.

DISCLAIMER: I've REALLY oversimplified what happens above, but I don't think this forum is the best place for details. There's an Amithlon developer list at this URL which, although extremely quiet lately, would be the best place for such questions. Suffice to say that "yes, Amithlon does run x86 code transparently from AmigaOS".