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Author Topic: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?  (Read 19045 times)

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Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #14 from previous page: April 30, 2008, 01:40:46 PM »
@D

Thanks for these details.  What you say corresponds to what I have experienced until now.

I tried Powerstrip : all it did was crashing the computer so I didn't insist, but this may be an option indeed.


@stefcep2

Thanks for your comments.

I would not say that the Amiga once tried to be a PC, as the PC wasn't more suitable than the Amiga for the kind of software you quote (except maybe the "chunky" vs "planar" processing but I suppose that processing power could compensate) : the PC was favoured for marketing reasons rather than technical reasons.


@Hammer

If I understand well, such an interpolation is usefeul in films or wholly moving screens because it suppresses the "pauses" that occur when a frame is repeated.

But if it only adds frames it can't improve 2D animation, especially for objects that moves on the screen without changing shape, because in it motion must be regular.  Every added frame will just slow animation down instead of stopping it, so instead of getting jerky animation you will just get wavy animation : it won't make the motion regular.  In order to reproduce 2D animation accurately on a different refresh rate, you would need to redraw every frame to make it correspond to what the eye would see at the same moment if the display's frame rate was right.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2008, 02:20:26 PM »
@Hammer

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Are seriously comparing AGA vs AVIVO HD or PureVideo HD?

What is AGA's HQV score again?


You seem to be out of sync with the topic, if I may say.  ;-)

The animation problem we are discussing is independant of processing power.  It is a physical problem - the difference between the emulated screen's refresh rate (in other words the emulated frame rate) and the emulator screen's refresh rate.

On the other hand, there is a misunderstanding about the words "2D animation", which I clarify in my previous post.  Perfect 2D animation of moving objects is designed for only one refresh rate, unlike movies.

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The whole point about "motion interpolation" is to avoid judder issues e.g. playing 24FPS video on 60hz/120hz display.


Yes, and this point is not enough for emulated Amiga 2D animation.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2008, 05:18:22 PM »
@coldfish

As you can see, I have been no further forward since our last discussion on the subject, about two years ago.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2008, 02:04:14 PM »
@Hammer

Quote
It's fine for SuperFrog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZfX-EvDeNc


Animation in this video is quite ugly, you know.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2008, 02:44:52 PM »
@stefcep2

But I suppose you are comparing the A4000 to a more recent PC with a more recent motherboard.  Even if you don't, I suppose that the difference of processing power may only be explained by Motorola's or the graphic card's slower processor, which too are a consequence of the PC being in favour with the public, as it has been delaying the Amiga's inheritances and slowing down the hardware's improvements since the late 80s.  And last but not least, as you say it, PC software was better coded, as it was coded for the most powerful setups while Amiga software (especially games) was usually coded for the least powerful setup, which again was a consequence of the public's favour and in turn fueled the hardware factor.  But originally, this favour was independant of processing power.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2008, 10:30:43 AM »
@stefcep2

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Not really. The classic Amiga graphics software such as DPaint, Brilliance, functioned differently to the "24 bit in a window" packages such as Photogenics and Art Effect. Brilliance could work in 24 bit but the way it went about things was very different. Those 24bit in a window programs were trying to imitate the Photoshop way of working, with the use of layers: this type of graphics software didn't originate on the Amiga.

Similarly the 3D first person shooters such as AB3D and Gloom where attempts to copy what the PC was doing with Doom.


I'm not denying that some of these programs have imitated PC programs.  You said that "the PC's processing speed and superior graphics display speed made all the difference" : what I mean is that these software were born on the PC because of the latter's popular favour rather than any power advantage.  Favour is also the reason why similar concepts were not developed on the Amiga at the same time : from that point of view there was no imitation, just delay.  As software quality has influenced success hence hardware development, eventually this favour also led to hardware advantage.  But originally this mighty favour was only driven by psychology and marketing : it was not justified by any power advantage, except to my knowledge the small advantage Intel had over Motorolla processors.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2008, 12:53:06 PM »
@bloodline

Ah, I prefer this to your insults.

I don't quite follow you, but my technical knowledge is poor.  Do you mean that Amiga graphic cards too are stuck in this planar system ?  In order to compare a 1990 PC with a 1990 Amiga for example, you have to compare machines that both have a graphic card, or it makes no sense to me, as the PC had no custom chips on the motherboard.

If you want to compare the Amiga's custom chips to what corresponds to them in the PC world, you have to compare two portable computers (because portable PCs had built-in graphic devices on the motherboard), and then you have to compare an A500 to a 1986 portable PC, as "portable" Amiga availability around 1990 was already negatively influenced by the PC's sucess.  And from this only comparison you have to conclude that the Amiga had better graphics than a PC, and that the PC's success was independant of graphic processing power.

So you can't compare the PC's graphic devices to the AGA chipset since the latter is a consequence (not a cause) of the PC's supremacy, which began as soon as the late 80's when most journalists chose to ignore the Amiga 2000 and 3000, in other words the Amiga's power and evolution, especially video gaming magazines.

Consequently, in the early 90's it's already too late to attribute the PC's success to a power advantage.  That's why, to my knowledge, the PC's sucess and power advantage are both the consequence of journalism.

However I agree that Commodore's reaction was inadequate.  But I'm pretty sure that Apple with the same reactions would have survived because Apple did not suffer from journalism (I am caricaturing to make short but I can illustrate).
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2008, 03:19:25 PM »
@bloodline

[/quote]No Amiga graphics cards are built using the same chips as PC graphics cards.[/quote]

None ?  And were they significantly less powerful than the PC graphic cards of the same technological generation ? -- I don't mean the same "era" as the delay between PC and Amiga hardware, at the time of the Amiga graphic cards, may be attributed to other factors than power difference between the two standards.

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The Amiga was a little bit cheaper than the PC at the high end of the Market. But for the little more that you paid with the PC you got better Graphics. With the Amiga you had to pay the price of the Base machine and the graphics card, this pushed costs to far more than the PC.

At the top end of the market the Amiga was considerably more expensive to achieve the same results.


I agree, but the price factor depends on success, and success is not only the consequence of price, but reputation, and the reputation was mainly made by journalists, the majority of which never considered the desktop Amiga models, making price increase and condemning the Amiga to death (as if it was a game console).  Since graphic cards were (almost) only designed for desktop models, it may be enough to explain their rarity and the technological delay.

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Plus the Amiga Operating system offered little support (ie none) for these graphics cards. This support had to be added by third party and were often buggy and incompatible.


I hadn't thought about that.  Yet again I can't remember any journalist complaining about this problem, while even any video game journalist would any time criticize MS-Dos and Windows, hence encouraging progress.

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But in the time frame we are looking at, neither the A500 or the "portable PC" would have been used for serious graphics work.


Then we must only compare PCs to Amiga with graphic cards.  Yet most journalists were only interested in the "portable" Amiga.  Open any game magazine of that era : all talk about the Amiga 500, and later 600, CDTV, CD32 and 1200, but most act as if they ignore the existence of the A2000, 3000 and 4000, to such an extent that they were comparing 486 or Pentium PCs to the Amiga 500 or 600 - and nobody realized it was absurd.

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AGA should have been included in a minor 1988/1989 update to the A500. It is after all little more than a new 24bit Denise chip.

Thee A2000 is just an A500 with ZorroII slots...


Yes but the AGA chipset was not upgradeable anyway, so the Zorro slots hence desktop models had to be the key of Amiga evolution, which they couldn't be because of public disinterest forced by journalism.

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The advantage was economic.


You see, power did not make everything.

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Amiga's stopped being value for money at the high end graphics market in about 1991... and the low end of the market by 1993. This was Commodore's fault. They assumed that the Amiga like the C64 would just sell, without the need to constantly innovate.


But as I say I think it was already too late in 1991, as journalism had already been sending the A2000 (and later 3000 and 4000) - hence indirectly the whole Amiga range - into oblivion for five years.  Commodore has only accelerated the demise.  A computer can't sell if nobody talks about it.

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Apple had a better marketing team, and were more prepared to take risks with innovative devices


Yes indeed, but people were not acting as if the only Apple on the market in 1992 was the '84 Mac or the Apple IIc.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2008, 03:26:04 PM »
O-kay.  Then the journalism factor is only confirmed.