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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Lorraine on November 07, 2008, 10:30:34 PM

Title: /
Post by: Lorraine on November 07, 2008, 10:30:34 PM
/
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: TheMagicM on November 07, 2008, 11:03:43 PM
honestly, its not worth fighting any war in the Amiga world.  Just stick with what you like. I love MorphOS.  I dont care about what goes on anywhere else with other "camps".  The less emotional investment you put into the Amiga world, the better off you are.  Pick what you like and just stick with it.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: klx300r on November 07, 2008, 11:28:25 PM
honestly I feel at peace when Im using my 1200..and I hope to one day try OS4.1 with Sam...really dont understand this flaming war nonsense :-?
If you love Amiga.. support it :pint:
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: zyphoid on November 08, 2008, 12:04:34 AM
it stems back to the programmers of the early era, someone else has the history lesson I'm sure, but morph created better computer opportunities when amiga was in disarray, then it stemmed into brand loyalty and what was a real amiga anyway. while "we" were struggling with the issue of speed, morph moved ahead and were enjoying the wealth of pegs,speed programs, ect.  Truth be told they carried the mantle of moving ahead for awhile now.  Though few will give it credit.

As for the war, why not? the more the merrier!  we got three new browsers out of it among other things, and if we be open, we will find something we like  i would even support the AInc move with AE on EVO  
http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.amigaimpact.org/modules/news/article.php%3Fstoryid%3D3008&usg=ALkJrhgSgwNFxqsBQYvqWK0K7GrHVLAfJQ

if they could be trusted, but right now whoever has the best product, will be dominant! OS4 looks good now, but again morph is ahead, if they port to faster hardware.

feel free to correct me  :-?
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Amithony on November 08, 2008, 12:08:55 AM
A better question is why there are so many PC threads on an amiga site?
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: AeroMan on November 08, 2008, 12:49:46 AM
Quote

Amithony wrote:
A better question is why there are so many PC threads on an amiga site?



That's a good question! I think the answer is that because most of us...

-Got piss*d by the fact that the crappy PC is the only survivor (sorry, Macs are PCs today) and wants to believe the world could be better if anything else had evolved to today's technology level. (include me here, please)

-Had an Amiga as a main computer, but fell in love with a PC somehow

-Believes Amigas should be left in the retrocomputing scene beside Sinclairs, TRS-80s, C64s and Ataris (complete the list with your favourite) and we are a bunch of dreamers

-Wants to prove that his/hers favourite flavour of PC is better than the one used by others (Mac/Linux/Win/others...) and for some reason needs to do it everytime the words PC or x86 appears

-Got brainwashed by MicroSoft :-D

And the last, but the most important in my opinion:

-Considers the good people in this forum have huge knowledge about computers, are willing to help, and feels like he/she is among friends. (...yeap, include me here too) :-D
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Amithony on November 08, 2008, 12:54:53 AM
Quote


-Considers the good people in this forum have huge knowledge about computers, are willing to help, and feels like he/she is among friends. (...yeap, include me here too) :-D


Should we shed the name amiga.org for something more general then? What would you call it? Generaltech.org ? :)
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: kolla on November 08, 2008, 12:56:02 AM
Quote

Lorraine wrote:
My question is why are there so many camps in the Amiga scene (when we're not really that big anyway) and why are we at war with each other?

Though this isn't to debate the issues that get us seemingly worked up, just why those issues exist in the first place.


This is like asking why there isnt peace in the middle east when they all worship the same god anyhow.

People who crave power lives off these wars, it's what gives them power. They can dictate the truth, create a following and eventually clash into open war with other groups. Split and rule.

I dont know much about the red camp, but in the blue camp they seem more keen on ridiculing the red camp than talking about their own problems. For example, in the SAM440 thread, bluecampers join in to ridicule both OS4 and SAM - en masse. What for? To show off their elitism ofcourse. Or do you really they care about what other people use their money on? I doubt it.

They keep pointing to various hardware that would be or is better/cheaper than SAM440 and say aCube should rather build something like that. Well, gee - so should Genesi. Yet we dont see the bluecampers raving around about the lack of products from Genesi/bPlan. Why not?

IMO the blue side should just STFU regarding OS4 and related issues, and rather focus on their own problems. The red camp I dont know so well, as blue camp hangaround I've only gotten to know the redcampers as dumbwits and children...  :roll:
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Skyraker on November 08, 2008, 01:16:34 AM
We were too short sighted in our day, now it's too late.

Enjoy what you have fella.

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: adz on November 08, 2008, 02:23:00 AM
Quote

Amithony wrote:
A better question is why there are so many PC threads on an amiga site?


Unless my A3000 is broke, I don't have anything Amiga related to talk about :shrug:
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: weirdami on November 08, 2008, 02:33:57 AM
YAY AMIGA!
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on November 08, 2008, 03:11:32 AM
Quote

kolla wrote:

I dont know much about the red camp


Of course not. :roll:

Quote
but in the blue camp they seem more keen on ridiculing the red camp than talking about their own problems.


You haven't visited morphzone.org much during the time prior to the 2.0 release then, right? :roll:

But right now there isn't really a problem, the cheap but low power and low spec Efika is still available, and the Mac Mini port is about to be released (any year now! ;-)) which will bring performance (and price) never yet seen on this market! The Pegs are here since long, the Pegasos 2 G4 stands for quality and performance, and you could get a second hand machine if you pay attention! :-)

Anyone here could get a MorphOS system right now if they want to! :-)

Quote
For example, in the SAM440 thread, bluecampers join in to ridicule both OS4 and SAM


OK, since I am pretty much the only one in that thread that has raised any kind of criticism against the price/performance ratio of the Sam as well as the rather dubious legal situation of the Sam/OS4.1 combo, I guess that it is *me* (and no one else) you are talking about when you throw up a label like "blue campers"?

Please don't make generalizations like that! :evil:

Call me by my name!

Quote
They keep pointing to various hardware that would be or is better/cheaper than SAM440 and say aCube should rather build something like that.


And how am I wrong? Please discuss my arguments instead of {bleep}ing and moaning.

I put forward pretty much the same arguments when the Sam spec's were released for the first time. Since then many things has happened on the PPC scene, and my point in that thread was to raise the question whether the embedded 440 processor with lots of external controllers would be the optimal choice for the future?

Acube is designing a new motherboard. Is the 440 CPU really the best choice for the desktop Amiga it claims to be? Or could a simple two-chip solution based on either the 8640 or 8610 be a better solution?

Is the 440 CPU really better than the 5121e in a more "gadget like" device?

In what way will a €700(EUR) combo system "bring back the Amiga" on a broad scale?

And why am I so evil by simply raising these questions? :-?

Quote
Well, gee - so should Genesi. Yet we dont see the bluecampers raving around about the lack of products from Genesi/bPlan. Why not?


If you are still talking about me, you should have seen it!
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Methuselas on November 08, 2008, 04:04:49 AM
Drama. People on here are human. It's all apples and oranges. All have their advantages and disadvantages. It really doesn't matter.

I wish that OS4 had MorphOS extensions, so it could run that software as well, since MorphOS can. Be even nicer if AROS could do it all. We can't always get what we want.
 :-P
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: 1985BMWK75 on November 08, 2008, 05:21:46 AM
@Lorraine

I think you posted after me about SAM. I don't have anything against non-Amiga's, or software simulators etc. Each to their own I say. Whatever you prefer to use (and can afford to buy), then that is great. If it makes you happy - then go for it.

I am mostly ignorant about what happened to Amiga after Commodore fell off it's perch, and what software and hardware came afterwards, to try and keep "Amiga" alive, and bring it into the 21st century. I have a vague awareness, so I'm not completely ignorant. I've glanced at some of the new hardware and software, but I am just not interested. I can't see the point in spending a small fortune on a computer that is more powerful than the original Amiga's, yet less powerful than a much cheaper modern PC (yet somehow much more expensive). I'm sure someone will say "yeah, but a PC doesn't have this or that feature..". Well, I just don't care, a generic el-cheapo PC has everything I could ever want or need.

Someone said something about elitism. I think that can come into it. Some people are veritable computer experts, and laugh at those of us who aren't as well versed. Others don't look down on less knowledgeable people, but share their knowledge, and help people out - these are the people that keep the Amiga community alive. Zetr0 comes to mind. Not everyone is so into computers (of any brand/type) to that extent. That doesn't make them dumb, or losers, or whatever. Just different, and maybe into other things, completely unrelated to computers and software. Are some people perhaps creeping over that fine line from passion, to obsession? :-P

For me, I would rather just use my PC's for the usual stuff. It's much cheaper, and they are so user friendly these days. But when I want that special feeling, I fire up my Amiga :-D But that's me, and I don't expect anyone to share even one of my views :-)

And like Lorraine, I can't quite grasp why some people will nearly abuse or ridicule someone (or actually do it). I know that there are provocative and annoying personalities out there, but responding in kind invariably seems the start the s**t-rain falling...

Nathan
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: arkanoid on November 08, 2008, 05:42:13 AM
tbh, I think the "war" is in your mind - it's there only if you wish it to be there. all I see is a variety of options availble - be it MorphOS, AROS, Classic AOS or AOS4 - all of which offer me the ability continue enjoying my Amiga hobby and all have their pros and cons.

I also, occasionally, notice a bunch of apparently delusional characters bickering on forums over which option is "best". I tend to ignore those characters and simply continue to enjoy my HOBBY because I don't find bickering very enjoyable.

PS: i just noticed Methuselas comment, i think i like him.  :-)
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: AmigaHeretic on November 08, 2008, 05:43:23 AM
Quote

Amithony wrote:
A better question is why there are so many PC threads on an amiga site?

Quote

Should we shed the name amiga.org for something more general then? What would you call it? Generaltech.org ? :)



I sometimes wonder if people do anything with other 'real' people in their real lives.  

I belong to a bicycle group.  Lots of talk about bicycles...imagine that :-)  But guess what... sometimes people talk about other things, like gasp, cars, or breaking wind.


Has anybody ever belonged to a car group like a Volkswagen club?  Yeah, it's like Amiga.org, lots of talk about Volkswagens, some people like Type IIs some like Type IVs, great way to find parts and get help building up your car or bus.  


And guess what you do being part of a Volkswagen club?  Much like Amiga.org you think Volkswagens are the best and you make fun of Chevrolet Corvairs, just like we make fun of Windows :-)   But guess what, people talk about other things than Volkswagens.  Volkswagens are a lot about air cooled engines and yeah a lot of people are into Chevy Corvairs too (also air cooled) some people bring them around, some people trade parts, have lots of knowledge.  And no one pisses and moans saying, damn it only mention the word Volkswagen.  People talk about all kinds of cars, because really while they may love VWs that also mean they're into cars.

If you're into Amiga.org and Amigas, well, they're may be a good chance people here like "electronics" or "computers".  

I'm not saying we should start posting news items about Windows etc, but if a fellow member needs help then that's what it's all about.  Wether it's with another OS or their kitchen sink leaking.

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: motorollin on November 08, 2008, 08:10:32 AM
Quote
Lorraine wrote:
why are we at war with each other?

Because so many people are too immature to accept that different people like different computers.

--
moto
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: skurk on November 08, 2008, 08:24:58 AM
Quote

motorollin wrote:
Because so many people are too immature to accept that different people like different computers.


Well said.

Also keep in mind that on the Internet, people's opinions always seem stronger and more harsh than what they are in real life...
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Atheist on November 08, 2008, 09:52:57 AM
Quote
skurk wrote:

Also keep in mind that on the Internet, people's opinions always seem stronger and more harsh than what they are in real life...

Hi skurk,

My anti-micro crap and anti-windross venom is 100 times worse in person, seriously! I despise and loathe them.

What really gets me, is that they've earned billions and billions and billions of $$dollar$$$, have even said they've spent 1 billion dollars+ studying how to make person to computer interfaces/display layout work better (when they could have bought and used such a WONDERFUL OS as AOS for pennies on that amount), for such a detestable, useless, annoying, wretched, slow, bloated, inefficient, unreliable, putrid, incompetent, piece of crud!!!!

The xp UI is pure GARBAGE!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Atheist on November 08, 2008, 10:03:39 AM
Quote
Lorraine Wrote:

My question is ........ and why are we at war with each other?

Hi Lorraine,

Well, read MooBunny. They just won't quit. People like TakeMeHomeGrandma just won't quit bashing (he calls it bringing attention to "a better way").

They just go on and on and on......

Don't really know why, but I question their sanity.

At least, TMHG has been a teensy bit more constructive in the last 2 years, I'd say, however it's USUALLY, "buy a Peg/Effika, forgret AOS4.x".
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: 1985BMWK75 on November 08, 2008, 11:40:09 AM
@Atheist

He he, I like how you express your hatred for M.S. :-D People expressing their dislike of something other than a person is quite ok I think :-) Well, in a public forum I mean. I would love to see what would happen if Bill Gates came knocking on your door, and you answered it... :lol:

I was once thinking once about the words micro & soft used together, and had one of those moments when you laugh out loud when no one is around. You know what it made me think of? An impotent man, with a teeny weener  :lol:

Nathan
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: skurk on November 08, 2008, 11:45:02 AM
Quote

Atheist wrote:
What really gets me, is that they've earned billions and billions and billions of $$dollar$$$, have even said they've spent 1 billion dollars+ studying how to make person to computer interfaces/display layout work better (when they could have bought and used such a WONDERFUL OS as AOS for pennies on that amount), for such a detestable, useless, annoying, wretched, slow, bloated, inefficient, unreliable, putrid, incompetent, piece of crud!!!!


Come on, it's not that bad.  I'm not a Windows user myself, but I don't throw up when I'm forced to use it.  It's not intuitive nor professional, but it does pretty OK as a novice/gamer OS.

Quote
The xp UI is pure GARBAGE!!!!!!!


10 bucks says you wrote your post in Windows.

Did I win?  :lol:
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on November 08, 2008, 11:59:55 AM
@Atheist

Wow, you can still post here? I thought you were banned from all Amiga forums by now?

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: klx300r on November 08, 2008, 02:39:32 PM
...NEVER BEEN SO MUCH FUN :-P
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Amithony on November 08, 2008, 02:44:36 PM
Quote

klx300r wrote:
...NEVER BEEN SO MUCH FUN :-P


This is true. I got into that age old piracy debate again. I couldn't imagine a world without Amiga software.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: bloodline on November 08, 2008, 06:20:38 PM
Quote

kolla wrote:
Quote

Lorraine wrote:
My question is why are there so many camps in the Amiga scene (when we're not really that big anyway) and why are we at war with each other?

Though this isn't to debate the issues that get us seemingly worked up, just why those issues exist in the first place.


This is like asking why there isnt peace in the middle east when they all worship the same god anyhow.

People who crave power lives off these wars, it's what gives them power. They can dictate the truth, create a following and eventually clash into open war with other groups. Split and rule.

I dont know much about the red camp, but in the blue camp they seem more keen on ridiculing the red camp than talking about their own problems. For example, in the SAM440 thread, bluecampers join in to ridicule both OS4 and SAM - en masse. What for? To show off their elitism ofcourse. Or do you really they care about what other people use their money on? I doubt it.

They keep pointing to various hardware that would be or is better/cheaper than SAM440 and say aCube should rather build something like that. Well, gee - so should Genesi. Yet we dont see the bluecampers raving around about the lack of products from Genesi/bPlan. Why not?

IMO the blue side should just STFU regarding OS4 and related issues, and rather focus on their own problems. The red camp I dont know so well, as blue camp hangaround I've only gotten to know the redcampers as dumbwits and children...  :roll:



:roflmao: The Ironing in your post is delicious... I hope it was deliberate!
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: amigaksi on November 08, 2008, 07:58:27 PM
>My question is why are there so many camps in the Amiga scene (when we're not really that big anyway) and why are we at war with each other?

Each individual has his own desires so the communities that share a common goal can be said to be "united" else "divided".

I bet even the PC forums (big or small) are divided since some older PCs are better in some ways than newer ones, some older OSes are better than newer ones in some ways, etc.  People want things that make them happy (or think will make them happy) to exist eternally so Amiga lovers want Amigas to be backward compatible in every possible way to what they loved about the Amiga.  PC lovers want their PCs backward compatible with what they loved about their PCs.  Atari lovers want their Ataris backward compatible with what they loved about their Ataris.  

Then there are those that don't really "love" their computers but just a means to profit, adoration, and distinction.  For them, their caught up in the passion of getting the latest PC to fulfill their ambitions regardless of who it hurts, what damages it causes to the planet, etc.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: amigaksi on November 08, 2008, 08:12:06 PM
by skurk on 2008/11/8 6:45:02

Quote:

>>    Atheist wrote:
>>    What really gets me, is that they've earned billions >>and billions and billions of $$dollar$$$, ...

>Come on, it's not that bad. I'm not a Windows user myself, >but I don't throw up when I'm forced to use it. It's not >intuitive nor professional, but it does pretty OK as a >novice/gamer OS...

You can dislike a product and still use it.  The world is flooded with Windows based PCs that others can't even compete.  Might does not make right.  They are targetting non-tech. markets which are much bigger than technical programming markets.  If they targetted market for programmers, the OSes and computers would be much different.  I for one would never buy a PC (if I had a choice) that is bunch of hodge podge of cycles based on caching, power management, branch prediction, varous speed memory chips depending on machine, dynamic processor speeds, imprecise API calls (that may have various ISA-VESA-PCI-AGP hardware or software emulation behind them), etc.

I don't agree with Atheist since some people may not care about these factors and are happy with hodge podge cycles and not knowing what's happening in the background on their PCs.

>10 bucks says you wrote your post in Windows.

100 bucks that the PC would be better if there were hardware standards and things did not rely on probability and worst case analysis rather than cycle exactness.

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Amithony on November 08, 2008, 11:00:25 PM

Quote
Lorraine wrote:
why are we at war with each other?


Because Amiga Inc just wanted it that way :)

Title: Enter The Sandman
Post by: dammy on November 08, 2008, 11:09:44 PM
We had the Red, then the Black, then the Blue, now entering into the ring, the gold (http://anubis-os.org/).  I've been told to expect the first WIP ISOs around the New Year.  I'm hoping it will be both x86 and PPC.  2009 should be a very interesting year for the Amiga community. :popcorn:

Dammy
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: Amithony on November 08, 2008, 11:35:02 PM
Quote

dammy wrote:
2009 should be a very interesting year for the Amiga community.



Every year is more interesting than the last. I find it fascinating how many swings and round abouts the technology goes through. One thing is for sure though, if Microsoft do not address the performance issues in its operating systems, we may well see the resurgence of the players like the Macs and Amigas. It's happening already, but Amiga needs to step up to the plate to make hay while the sun is shining, otherwise, we will be reading about how good the Amiga always was and emulating it on our new intel machines :)
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: kolla on November 09, 2008, 12:24:43 AM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

kolla wrote:
Quote

Lorraine wrote:
My question is why are there so many camps in the Amiga scene (when we're not really that big anyway) and why are we at war with each other?

Though this isn't to debate the issues that get us seemingly worked up, just why those issues exist in the first place.


This is like asking why there isnt peace in the middle east when they all worship the same god anyhow.

People who crave power lives off these wars, it's what gives them power. They can dictate the truth, create a following and eventually clash into open war with other groups. Split and rule.

I dont know much about the red camp, but in the blue camp they seem more keen on ridiculing the red camp than talking about their own problems. For example, in the SAM440 thread, bluecampers join in to ridicule both OS4 and SAM - en masse. What for? To show off their elitism ofcourse. Or do you really they care about what other people use their money on? I doubt it.

They keep pointing to various hardware that would be or is better/cheaper than SAM440 and say aCube should rather build something like that. Well, gee - so should Genesi. Yet we dont see the bluecampers raving around about the lack of products from Genesi/bPlan. Why not?

IMO the blue side should just STFU regarding OS4 and related issues, and rather focus on their own problems. The red camp I dont know so well, as blue camp hangaround I've only gotten to know the redcampers as dumbwits and children...  :roll:


:roflmao: The Ironing in your post is delicious... I hope it was deliberate!


Ironing?
No, I meant every word, irony is wasted on the stupid.
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: dammy on November 09, 2008, 12:25:25 AM
Quote
Every year is more interesting than the last. I find it fascinating how many swings and round abouts the technology goes through. One thing is for sure though, if Microsoft do not address the performance issues in its operating systems, we may well see the resurgence of the players like the Macs and Amigas. It's happening already, but Amiga needs to step up to the plate to make hay while the sun is shining, otherwise, we will be reading about how good the Amiga always was and emulating it on our new intel machines :)


 :lol: Ah, remember hearing something like that back in the late 1990s as I was giving up on my trusty old Amiga and going to x86 Linux.  In a couple of months, or less, the nightmare for red, black and blue may come to reality. Go Dr.Schulz, go! :devildance:

Dammy
http://anubis-os.org/
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: Tempest on November 09, 2008, 12:43:40 AM
Quote

Amithony wrote:
Quote

dammy wrote:
2009 should be a very interesting year for the Amiga community.



Every year is more interesting than the last. I find it fascinating how many swings and round abouts the technology goes through. One thing is for sure though, if Microsoft do not address the performance issues in its operating systems, we may well see the resurgence of the players like the Macs and Amigas. It's happening already, but Amiga needs to step up to the plate to make hay while the sun is shining, otherwise, we will be reading about how good the Amiga always was and emulating it on our new intel machines :)


Really?

Joe 'the computer user' doesn't give a sh*t about Amiga, most people don't even remember it. Amiga like OS's like MorphOS, Aros and OS4 just don't have the apps, hardware or stability to satisfy most users. This isn't going to change in the near future with only a few active users (a couple of thousend).

There's nothing these OS's have to offer at the moment. Don't even start about bootup time (most favorite amongst Amiga users), my 6 year old Linux box (AMD 2500) boots up in just 35 seconds and system performance is very fast with a highly tweaked Debian 'unstable' netinstall and Awesome as window manager.

The only OS's that could profit from a possible downfall of Windows are MacOS and Linux but I don't see Windows dissapear in the near future (Windows 7 is just around the corner).

Just face it, Amiga like OS's are just for hobby and aren't going to be mainstream ever again. The competition is lightyears ahead. Just look at Linux, it's a great OS if you put some time in it and best of all it's free :P



Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: Tempest on November 09, 2008, 12:51:32 AM
@Dammy

Interesting, is this new 'Anubis' OS a fork of Aros?
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: the_leander on November 09, 2008, 01:06:21 AM
Quote

kolla wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

kolla wrote:
Quote

Lorraine wrote:
My question is why are there so many camps in the Amiga scene (when we're not really that big anyway) and why are we at war with each other?

Though this isn't to debate the issues that get us seemingly worked up, just why those issues exist in the first place.


This is like asking why there isnt peace in the middle east when they all worship the same god anyhow.

People who crave power lives off these wars, it's what gives them power. They can dictate the truth, create a following and eventually clash into open war with other groups. Split and rule.

I dont know much about the red camp, but in the blue camp they seem more keen on ridiculing the red camp than talking about their own problems. For example, in the SAM440 thread, bluecampers join in to ridicule both OS4 and SAM - en masse. What for? To show off their elitism ofcourse. Or do you really they care about what other people use their money on? I doubt it.

They keep pointing to various hardware that would be or is better/cheaper than SAM440 and say aCube should rather build something like that. Well, gee - so should Genesi. Yet we dont see the bluecampers raving around about the lack of products from Genesi/bPlan. Why not?

IMO the blue side should just STFU regarding OS4 and related issues, and rather focus on their own problems. The red camp I dont know so well, as blue camp hangaround I've only gotten to know the redcampers as dumbwits and children...  :roll:


:roflmao: The Ironing in your post is delicious... I hope it was deliberate!


Ironing?
No, I meant every word, irony is wasted on the stupid.


And it just gets better  :roflmao:
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: dammy on November 09, 2008, 01:15:41 AM
Quote
Interesting, is this new 'Anubis' OS a fork of Aros?


No, a AROS fork was not possible with the limited man power at hand.  This is not an Amiga like OS, it's an Amiga inspired OS.  Some will not like it, but they probably wouldn't like anything beyond their existing favorite(s) so to each their own.  The initial WIP ISOs should not be considered the end product but mearly a point during a transitory shift.  Anubis OS is aptly named.

Dammy
Looking Forward To The End
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: AeroMan on November 09, 2008, 01:25:27 AM
Quote

dammy wrote:

No, a AROS fork was not possible with the limited man power at hand.  This is not an Amiga like OS, it's an Amiga inspired OS.  Some will not like it, but they probably wouldn't like anything beyond their existing favorite(s) so to each their own.  The initial WIP ISOs should not be considered the end product but mearly a point during a transitory shift.  Anubis OS is aptly named.

Dammy
Looking Forward To The End




I loved the idea !!!! The site is somewhat ... empty ?
Where can I get more info ? Where?Where?Where?  :idea:
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: novaburst on November 09, 2008, 01:44:39 AM
Quote

AeroMan wrote:
I loved the idea !!!! The site is somewhat ... empty ?
Where can I get more info ? Where?Where?Where?  :idea:


Here:

The AROS Show (http://arosshow.blogspot.com)

Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: Hans_ on November 09, 2008, 02:35:59 AM
Quote

Tempest wrote:

...

Joe 'the computer user' doesn't give a sh*t about Amiga, most people don't even remember it. Amiga like OS's like MorphOS, Aros and OS4 just don't have the apps, hardware or stability to satisfy most users. This isn't going to change in the near future with only a few active users (a couple of thousend).


Have you kept yourself up to date with either MorphOS or Amiga OS 4.1? The number of apps that both can run is continually expanding. The progress that is being made with the available resources is interesting. Average Joe's might not care about the Amiga, but we do.

Quote

There's nothing these OS's have to offer at the moment.


I enjoy using it, and developing Amiga software; that's something.

Quote
Just face it, Amiga like OS's are just for hobby and aren't going to be mainstream ever again. The competition is lightyears ahead. Just look at Linux, it's a great OS if you put some time in it and best of all it's free :P


I like my hobbies.

Hans

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: redrumloa on November 09, 2008, 02:39:14 AM
People resorting to name calling will get a time out.

Come now people, it is almost freaking 2009. Amiga lost the computer wars a very, very long time ago. Fighting over a dead platform is ridonkulous.

Complaining about OS4 users is lame.
Complaining about MOS users is lame.
Complaining about Amiga Classic users is lame.
Complaining about AROS users is lame.
Complaining about emulator users is lame.
Complaining about PC users is lame.
Complaining about Mac users is lame.

Use what you like and don't piss on what you don't personally care for. Wayne has made this web site open and tolerant to all, end of story.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Hans_ on November 09, 2008, 02:41:29 AM
Quote

TheMagicM wrote:
honestly, its not worth fighting any war in the Amiga world.  Just stick with what you like. I love MorphOS.  I dont care about what goes on anywhere else with other "camps".  The less emotional investment you put into the Amiga world, the better off you are.  Pick what you like and just stick with it.


As an Amiga OS 4.1 user/developer, I agree with this. Although I should add that having the odd look at what the other OSes in the Amiga world are doing is worthwhile, just out of curiosity.

Hans
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: Tempest on November 09, 2008, 03:02:52 AM
Quote

Hans_ wrote:
Quote

Tempest wrote:

...

Joe 'the computer user' doesn't give a sh*t about Amiga, most people don't even remember it. Amiga like OS's like MorphOS, Aros and OS4 just don't have the apps, hardware or stability to satisfy most users. This isn't going to change in the near future with only a few active users (a couple of thousend).


Have you kept yourself up to date with either MorphOS or Amiga OS 4.1? The number of apps that both can run is continually expanding. The progress that is being made with the available resources is interesting. Average Joe's might not care about the Amiga, but we do.


Oh, I'm up to date with Amiga like OS's. I've used MorphOS for about six years (sold my Pegasos a month ago). But apparently you didn't notice that I was talking about Joe 'the computer user' who isn't interested in Amiga like OS's. Yes there's a number of interesting apps available for MorphOS and OS4 and that's nice but you can't seriously tell me that either of these OS's can compete with Linux, MacOS or Windows and get a place in mainstream computer land like the previous poster suggested. Do you?

Quote

Quote

There's nothing these OS's have to offer at the moment.


I enjoy using it, and developing Amiga software; that's something.


I enjoy using Amiga OS also (since 1986) but just as an hobby nowadays, it's never going to be more than that. Linux has been my main OS for more than a decade now. To me it just has so much more to offer than any other OS.

Quote

Quote
Just face it, Amiga like OS's are just for hobby and aren't going to be mainstream ever again. The competition is lightyears ahead. Just look at Linux, it's a great OS if you put some time in it and best of all it's free :P


I like my hobbies.

Hans



Excactly, that's just what it is a hobby :P
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: Hans_ on November 09, 2008, 03:24:15 AM
Quote

Tempest wrote:

Oh, I'm up to date with Amiga like OS's. I've used MorphOS for about six years (sold my Pegasos a month ago). But apparently you didn't notice that I was talking about Joe 'the computer user' who isn't interested in Amiga like OS's. Yes there's a number of interesting apps available for MorphOS and OS4 and that's nice but you can't seriously tell me that either of these OS's can compete with Linux, MacOS or Windows and get a place in mainstream computer land. Do you?


Oh, I perfectly understood that you were talking about Joe 'the computer user' (reread my post). What I was saying is that it is interesting to us. It would probably be interesting to a larger group if they knew what was going on. Whilst I don't see the Amiga becoming a mainstream system again (maybe in the distant future, who knows), I think that it is possible for our hobby community to grow.

Hans

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: TheMagicM on November 09, 2008, 05:44:43 AM
Hans:

Quote
As an Amiga OS 4.1 user/developer, I agree with this. Although I should add that having the odd look at what the other OSes in the Amiga world are doing is worthwhile, just out of curiosity.  Hans



I used my term "dont care" loosely.  I'll read up on it but since I'm a MorphOS supporter, the news is not relevant to me.  I do think that more competition makes both OS4 and MorphOS developers bring out the best in each other.  

-Alex
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: uncharted on November 09, 2008, 09:23:18 PM
There are two simple reasons for the wars and the camps:

1.  When Commodore then Escom bit the dust several small fry with big egos decided that they were the ones who should decide the future of the platform.  With no official direction the community flocked to the various 'saviours' and the split was made.

2. People on the Internet are dicks.  It's all too easy to hide behind an avatar or username and behave in a way that would get your head kicked-in in real life.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: X-ray on November 09, 2008, 09:33:57 PM
Classic Amiga is best, okay?

If you don't agree...

SILENCE!! I KILL YOU!!!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go

 ;-)
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: AmiKit on November 09, 2008, 09:34:13 PM
@Lorraine
Quote
My question is why are there so many camps in the Amiga scene (when we're not really that big anyway) and why are we at war with each other?

Maybe because of the narcissism of small differences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences)?
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: redfox on November 09, 2008, 11:38:30 PM
Same reason people disagree about politics and religion ...

:argue: ... poke ... prod ... :whack::flame::destroy: ..... :roll:
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: ZeBeeDee on November 10, 2008, 02:43:49 AM
Quote

X-ray wrote:

SILENCE!! I KILL YOU!!!

 ;-)


(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/bleddrewsoe/AchmedPoster.jpg)
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: stefcep2 on November 10, 2008, 03:42:40 AM
Quote

Tempest wrote:
Quote

Amithony wrote:
Quote

dammy wrote:
2009 should be a very interesting year for the Amiga community.



Every year is more interesting than the last. I find it fascinating how many swings and round abouts the technology goes through. One thing is for sure though, if Microsoft do not address the performance issues in its operating systems, we may well see the resurgence of the players like the Macs and Amigas. It's happening already, but Amiga needs to step up to the plate to make hay while the sun is shining, otherwise, we will be reading about how good the Amiga always was and emulating it on our new intel machines :)


Really?

Joe 'the computer user' doesn't give a sh*t about Amiga, most people don't even remember it. Amiga like OS's like MorphOS, Aros and OS4 just don't have the apps, hardware or stability to satisfy most users. This isn't going to change in the near future with only a few active users (a couple of thousend).

There's nothing these OS's have to offer at the moment. Don't even start about bootup time (most favorite amongst Amiga users), my 6 year old Linux box (AMD 2500) boots up in just 35 seconds and system performance is very fast with a highly tweaked Debian 'unstable' netinstall and Awesome as window manager.

The only OS's that could profit from a possible downfall of Windows are MacOS and Linux but I don't see Windows dissapear in the near future (Windows 7 is just around the corner).

Just face it, Amiga like OS's are just for hobby and aren't going to be mainstream ever again. The competition is lightyears ahead. Just look at Linux, it's a great OS if you put some time in it and best of all it's free :P





Yeah really.  Vista has been an embarrassing failure.  Average Joe is no longer dumb-ass Joe.  He's probably had XP for a few years, knows he can do everything he needs with it,eye candy ala Vista doesn't matter, and he sees vista that does NOTHING new for him, makes his machine slower and a lot of his peripherals won't work with it.  So he stays with XP.  Why do you think MS already has a beta of Windows 7 that many people are installing and finding it is FASTER than Vista on their current hardware.  It took MS what 6 years to make Vista and within 18 months they have something that it is widely reported to be faster than XP on the same hardware. Why?  Because the game is changing, the same old MS trick of updating your hardware for a new look and better stability is gone.  Performance is where its at, and MS knows that another bloated POS like Vista will be disastrous.  And BTW Linux is the biggest overrated, unintuitive mess that I have had the misfortune of experiencing (yes done Ubuntu (does dial up work yet?), Done red hat, done PCLOS, done Mandriva all meh)
Title: /
Post by: Lorraine on November 10, 2008, 09:34:09 PM
/
Title: /
Post by: Lorraine on November 10, 2008, 09:40:18 PM
/
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Hans_ on November 10, 2008, 10:50:52 PM
Quote

Lorraine wrote:
@ Atheist

I don't know about MooBunny, but I've heard the word thrown around this site in various places. What is it?


It's an online forum that doesn't require you to log in to post; anyone can post comments there. Unless you want even more negativity and spittle, don't bother looking it up.

Hans

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: the_leander on November 10, 2008, 11:23:32 PM
Quote

Lorraine wrote:
@ kolla, takemehomegrandma, bloodline, the_leander & redfox

Well I'm not too sure about the Middle East Religion analogy, but some of what you said demonstrated a point about how things escalate. Not that big a deal, just thought I'd point it out.


Some of what who said?

I think I've made one comment in this thread, which said:

Quote
And it just gets better :roflmao:


Which was a comment on unintended irony. Hardly escalating things, especially as no one ever replied.

So put away the broad brush please.
Title: /
Post by: Lorraine on November 10, 2008, 11:26:53 PM
/
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: the_leander on November 11, 2008, 12:10:18 AM
Quote

Lorraine wrote:
@ the_leander

Sorry, didn't mean to keep things so broad. I just put all your names together because your posts were all part of a certain chain.


No worries. :-)

Quote

Lorraine wrote:
My mistake. Sorry again. (Lol, maybe this is another form of escalation: misunderstanding)


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Tbh I tend to think of all this as pretty unnecessary myself, this whole red/blue whatever camps, at one time for me was important, but no longer, so my comment was simply on someone saying something deeply ironic unintentionally, because it did actually make me laugh out loud.

My view on this is quite simple: Use what you want, do what you want, so long as you're not hurting anyone (including yourself) whilst doing it.  :-)

And maybe, just maybe, have a little fun whilst you're at it  :-)

--ninjar edits for spazzed tags
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: zylesea on November 11, 2008, 01:56:07 AM
Quote

Hans_ wrote:

Oh, I perfectly understood that you were talking about Joe 'the computer user' (reread my post). What I was saying is that it is interesting to us. It would probably be interesting to a larger group if they knew what was going on. Whilst I don't see the Amiga becoming a mainstream system again (maybe in the distant future, who knows), I think that it is possible for our hobby community to grow.

Hans



And there I perfectly agree. MorphOS AmigaOS 4.x is far better than many ppl think. Everyday usability is not as bad as some say. Look, I recently bought an Eee 900A and while I like the device in general I am rather surprised of the bad shape of that Xandros and the instability of many apps. I very often need to kill apps and I don't do anything special on that device other than surfing the web and use Star Office.
Setting up the WLAN at work (uses a vpn identification) was rather difficult (and I am not a Joe average computer guy I'd say, but have pretty some knowledge).
Linux advocates will say, everything is possible with Linux - they are right. But it is *not* possible for an average user.
Nevertheles Asus sells these devices. If asus can, I'd say "yes we can (tm)!" ;-).
Seriously, MorphOS/AOS lacks pretty something in the web domain (most importantly flash) but for music, mails, chatting, youtube, pictures, video, rather simple games (which are played most anyway) both sytsems are quite usable (at least I use MorphOS as my main system). I guess even for an advanced Joe Average. Sure these systems are not won't become mainstream, but a bit more selfesteem (while keeping real) would be a good thing.
Title: Re: Enter The Sandman
Post by: stefcep2 on November 11, 2008, 05:01:18 AM
I only started using Windows (XP Pro) regularly about 3 years ago.  Xp SP2 is very stable and runs very well. Prior I  was doing everything on AmigaOS 3.9.  I also played around with MacOS 8.1, usually under shapeshifter.  On all systems I didn't have to piss-fart around trying to install hardware or edit text files with incomprehensible names or commands. More recently over 12-18 months I have dabbled with Linux in the hope of recapturing the Amiga intuitivenes.  Well what a joke:   just try to install a Linux driver, edit a monitor config, or fix somtehing when it inevitably fails, and watch all of your spare time disappear into the vortex of eternity..Linux is not a consumer-level OS, yet never will be as long as its not possible to do EVERYTHING you want without going into the command line.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: amigaksi on November 11, 2008, 09:33:22 AM
by Lorraine on 2008/11/10 16:34:09
...
>Yes I also am stuck in the functional PC ways of today, >with Windows XP being my primary OS. Shame on me
...
>@ amigaksi
>
>I use Windows every day but I don't really like the way >it's dominant - maybe why I'm so stuck in the past with my >hobby.

I use Windows 3.11 networked to another Windows XP machine.  Windows 3.11 is not 'dominant' and lets you do whatever you want with the machine and also allows me to run real-mode DOS.  I don't consider this nor using Amiga as "stuck in the past".  Windows 3.11 is also not prone to viruses/spyware as most of those are 32-bit apps so you don't need to constantly have some antivirus software hogging up 50% of your CPU time and there's no I/O protection on the ports so everything is as fast as possible.  I use hardware that is (was) standard so I don't need any drivers (sound blaster, IDE HDs, VESA-compatible VGA, etc.).  In fact, I backed up my entire Windows 3.11 OS on one 1.44MB floppy disk (and can boot from it).  I still need to have XP running because of "others".  Believe it or not you can directly write to the Sound Blaster I/O ports and VGA ports and create real-time sound and visual effects like on Amiga/Atari although not as exact and not with as much control.  I believe creativity in general took a hit by making standards at API level rather than at hardware level.  
Some things in the past are better than what's in the present so "stuck in the past" has no meaning in regards to technology.  I prefer computers that are simple so complicated programs can be written without having to worry about the complications of the processor.  I suggest that Intel drop the L1 and L2 caches, power management, branch prediction caches, and few other things from their processors.  They should slow down their processors so that each instruction executes in fixed amount of time or can easily be predicted as to the number of cycles.  I am pretty sure they can do 1 Ghz machine and run all of RAM at the same rate as the processor.  They can use a single branch prediction so we can predict whether a branch will occur or not and that would take care of most of tight inner loops.  Get rid of virtual/physical/linear memory bullcrap and let you align opcodes to physical memory locations (that factually exist) for optimizing code. A few more things but don't want to hog up the thread...

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: amigaksi on November 12, 2008, 07:44:02 PM
>...They can use a single branch prediction so we can predict whether a branch will occur or not and that would take care of most of tight inner loops....

That should be "whether a branch will occur cycles or not".  For example, if we were upgrading a 486-type processor (to some theoretical 886) and take the 3 cycles for branch taken and 1 cycle if it does not and put in a single branch prediction in parallel with previous instruction then following code for SQRT(EAX) for EAX=4 would take 18 cycles.

;EBX=FLOOR(SQRT(EAX))
Sqrt Proc Near
Xor EBX,EBX        ;1 cycle
SqrtEAX: Sub EAX,EBX   ;1 cycle
Inc EBX   ;1 cycle
Sub EAX,EBX   ;1 cycle
Jns SqrtEAX   ;3 first time, 0 afterwards, 1 last iteration
Dec EBX   ;1 cycle
RET   ;say 3 cycles

Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: KimmoK on November 12, 2008, 07:55:48 PM
It starts from each single person.
MAKE PEACE.


(waiting my HW for the RED and for the BLUE, most likely will use use every possible color there exist in Amigaworld, the original amiga checkmark had all colors anyway... ;-)  The FUTURE IS NOW ! ) :-o  :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:
 8-)
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Atheist on November 13, 2008, 12:04:09 AM
Hi  amigaksi,

I agree 100%!!!

So much of those UNKNOWN ACTIONS interfere with making a predictable outcome.

That is what made Amiga so AWESOME. It was an ultimately flexible/hackable system, and yet it was just like a console because what was done on one, would happen on every other model.

So, you write an assembler groovy hack, and it worked on all the other machines (A1000, A2000, A500, A600, A3000 and the CDTV), while the A1200, A4000, and CD32 weren't 100% backwards compatible. A disaster! (Even that contributed to the breakdown of Amiga market share.)


What will bring everything all back to where it should be is the NatAmi!!!!

Full OCS/ECS/AGA compatibility. AWESOME!

For example, it'll be like having what is essentially the power of a Playstation 2 (with much more RAM!!!!), but it is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT hackable!!!!!!

NOTHING beats that!
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: Atheist on November 13, 2008, 12:28:27 AM
Hi Lorraine,

Why are there so many camps?

AOS1.0 to 3.9
AmigaForever-UAE
AOS4.x
AROS
Amithlon
AmigaXL
MorphOS
Anubis
(did I miss any?)

Simple, actually. Everyone thought they were doing the right thing.


AROS's problem is, every program has to be recompiled.... who is going to do that, and WHERE are the source code for most of the Amiga SW available? Too difficult.

MorphOS. Not based from the original source code.

Amithlon. Does'nt run software that uses the custom chipsets, ist that like more than 75% of the SW that's available for AOS? Probably doesn't run purely assembler written programs.

AmigaXL. Don't know anything about it.

Amiga Forever, to this day, it's MOSTLY compatible. Not enough at all in the AGA realm.

Anubis. Well, it's not Amiga, but something similar. We lose all old SW. Who is going to recreate AMOSProfessional? And a billion other programs?

Only AmigaOS4.x is the continuation of AOS1-3.9, as the original source code was looked at and everything that Amiga was attempting to do oh so many years ago is reimplemented and/or improved.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: jahc on November 13, 2008, 02:59:43 AM
:roll:

Just for the record, this man (Atheist) does not represent me.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: benJamin on November 13, 2008, 07:13:42 AM
Because of the number of people running *UAE having difficulty with their host machine/OS?

Honestly, I've asked some non-Amiga questions here simply because I have a good idea who to trust, if not to give immediate answers then to point me in the right direction (should Google already have failed).

I also remember the early days when all the latest tech. developments were reported here, I had even no need or want to go to Slashdot (for example).

Amiga.org has always rocked!

:-D
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on November 13, 2008, 08:12:48 AM
Why?

Well, Atheist's post above pictures the reason in essence quite well:

Quote
Only AmigaOS4.x is the continuation of AOS1-3.9


I.e. an elitist and uncompromising "we are so much holier than you" attitude, "there can be only one, and it is OS4", "only OS4 uses the original source code", "only OS4 has the Amiga name", etc. The point is that this attitude has proved to be so totally mis-fitted, time after time, and outright untrue, and as a result many of the "hardcore BAF's" has softened during the years and turned more into *the pluralists* we encounter here at amiga.org (it's very positive to see that amiga.org with its allowing attitude and pluralistic direction has 6467 members, while for instance amigans.net only has 865 ;-)).