Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: swift240 on September 17, 2009, 03:38:32 PM
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Just been to http://www.natami.net/index.htm
From what I just read, it sounds just like what we allo need to todays approach to computing.
I always new that some one some where this sort of thing could be done, instead of people all to ready to saying the Amiga is finished.
What do you think?
Mike.
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We've been waiting patiently for quite some time, it's been so long that it's hard to not label it vapour, hopefully he be able to finish the product. I'd buy one. But is it retro enough for the true retro fan?
Just been to http://www.natami.net/index.htm
From what I just read, it sounds just like what we allo need to todays approach to computing.
I always new that some one some where this sort of thing could be done, instead of people all to ready to saying the Amiga is finished.
What do you think?
[img]http://www.everythingicafe.com/forum/avatars/eninety2.gif[img]
Mike.
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I only came across it about a year and a half ago. The prospect of it is very interesting to me. I will buy one when it comes out. I'm hopelessly optimistic, so I say when instead of if. :)
Nathan
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I do believe we will ALL buy one of these if they manage to make it out.
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Is anyone able to say how far along the project is and when we can roughly expect completion?
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I do believe we will ALL buy one of these if they manage to make it out.
...For a decent price...:juggler:
Of course, a decent price is a personal point of view. Hope the final product can be sold for than 500USD, if not, patience.:(
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Is anyone able to say how far along the project is and when we can roughly expect completion?
No ;)
The problem these guys have is that it's one thing to come up with a working prototype, it's quite another to bring it to market and heaven forbid...make some money out of it.
It would require a large amount of investment to create a production ready 'machine' and get it to the point where people can buy it. Even if they get it to that point, they'll need a BIG production run to get the cost down to an acceptable level and then you need to take software compatiblity (and ideally advances) into account (ie a whole lot more $$$ required).
They also need to think about their market very carefully, who's actually going to be buying this hardware...what do people actually want and what would they pay for it.
So far I've seen nothing that gives me any confidence that they have either the money or knowledge to get something to market that I would want to buy :(
But you know, fingers crossed and all that Jazz...
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hmmm..
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=11215&z=nFz5aR
http://www.natami.net/gfx/NatAmi16_LX/natami16_lx_2.jpg
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w00t :)
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Is that PDS-like slot connector (sorry, I don't know what it's called) for the CPU board?
Anyway, neat looking. Maybe it'll get built! Just remember, though : Mick Tinker showed lots of photos of prototypes of the Boxer before he had to throw the towel in due to monetary problems.
One, two, or ten photos doesn't make the thing buy-able.
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yeah, a long way to go still, i expect.
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We have seen the market and the market is us!
The problem is the development time is very long and the market very small. He'll be luck to sell a few thousand, it's hard to get any kind of volume discounts on such a small run or to make money on so few sales. You almost have to be doing it for the love of it. You also have to support yourself before after and during the production run.
Anyway, I wish him luck. How long has he been going at it now?
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Hope to see that Gunnar and the team can pull it off to completion of the natami system.
I think natami is a good replacement/upgrade for our aging classic amiga's.
Since my A1200T PPC keeps falling apart for the past 2 years more and more.
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NATAMI mainboard: Status Done [AMIGA Check-mark]
NATAMI CPU-Card: Status Done [AMIGA Check-mark]
Current work in progress (testing the Mainboard functionality)
Board for the people Status (coming soon)
Cheers
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I do believe we will ALL buy one of these if they manage to make it out.
Not all of us will. If I have a real need to run an Amiga game, UAE is there and it's a lot cheaper. Ten years ago, I may have broke down and consider buying one. Today, there isn't the need IMO.
I wish them good luck, but I do not think the real world market is going to be there for this product when and if it goes into retail production.
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Only if it goes the way of Minimig there should be a way for this product to find a place in the market. A bigger company like Acube should take it and come across the task to produce large quantities and bring the final product to the people.
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A bigger company like Acube should take it and come across the task to produce large quantities and bring the final product to the people.
How big is ACube actually?
Does someone know how many employes they have?
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Big or small they seem to have the interest to handle Amiga stuff business, unlike most hardware companies out there. Plus they have already mass-produced Minimig and Sam, so thye know how and they have proved that they can do it.
You can put any company you like in the slot of acube.
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Not all of us will. If I have a real need to run an Amiga game, UAE is there and it's a lot cheaper. Ten years ago, I may have broke down and consider buying one. Today, there isn't the need IMO.
I wish them good luck, but I do not think the real world market is going to be there for this product when and if it goes into retail production.
I'm sure that if they super glue and ARM to it........
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Big or small they seem to have the interest to handle Amiga stuff business, unlike most hardware companies out there. Plus they have already mass-produced Minimig and Sam, so thye know how and they have proved that they can do it.
You can put any company you like in the slot of acube.
I've nothing against Acube.
I think it would be nice if ACube would help to sell the NATAMI too.
Plus they have already mass-produced Minimig and Sam,
My not sure if the production volume of the MiniMig matches the term mass-production.
Producing and selling a couple hundred units is not mass-production.
The logistical issues will start if you produce batches of several thousands.
Producing and selling a few hundred units is also no problem for Thomas alone. ;-)
Cheers
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I hope there's a UAE for Haiku OS!
Not all of us will. If I have a real need to run an Amiga game, UAE is there and it's a lot cheaper. Ten years ago, I may have broke down and consider buying one. Today, there isn't the need IMO.
I wish them good luck, but I do not think the real world market is going to be there for this product when and if it goes into retail production.
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I hope there's a UAE for Haiku OS!
UAE only provides a fraction of the features of the NATAMI of course.
Those who is satisfied with UAE or with the capabilities of the classic A500 does not need a NATAMI anyway.
The NATAMI is for AMIGA fans which want a real AMIGA which has more features than UAE. :-)
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UAE only provides a fraction of the features of the NATAMI of course.
Those who is satisfied with UAE or with the capabilities of the classic A500 does not need a NATAMI anyway.
The NATAMI is for AMIGA fans which want a real AMIGA which has more features than UAE. :-)
I dunno, UAE has some pretty nice features. On my machine, it supports modern SATA-II hard disks, DDR3 memory, gigabit network connections, high end sound and graphics. Those are pretty good features, really.
I'm not knocking natami, but the main advantage it seems to have is that it is a piece of hardware you can actually hold in your hand.
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NATAMI mainboard: Status Done [AMIGA Check-mark]
NATAMI CPU-Card: Status Done [AMIGA Check-mark]
Current work in progress (testing the Mainboard functionality)
Board for the people Status (coming soon)
Cheers
Well, that's great news. I will definitely be purchasing one. The specs and the compatability really sound fantastic. I for one really appreciate all the work that has went into this project.
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I dunno, UAE has some pretty nice features. On my machine, it supports modern SATA-II hard disks, DDR3 memory, gigabit network connections, high end sound and graphics. Those are pretty good features, really.
I'm not knocking natami, but the main advantage it seems to have is that it is a piece of hardware you can actually hold in your hand.
Yes of course this is a major advantage.
Having a small system which just boots only AMIGA, which you can turn on and off as you want - is just nice :)
Regarding the different between UAE and NATAMI.
First of all:
UAE is a great piece of software - I love UAE -
I think it very much depends whether you are mainly AMIGA or mainly Windows guy.
When you are a 90%-Windows/10%-AMiGA guy or gal then UAE is a gift from heaven.
You use you PC for Windows mainly and play a bit with AMIGA OS from time to time.
UAE is free - bingo.
If you are 90% AMIGA guy then having to have a huge and power hungry machine that loads gigabytes to boot up only to emulate an AMIGA is a bit of a pain. Especially if the 2 GHz and 200 Watt eating PC runs AMIGA slower than the NATAMI HW.
NATAMI is real HW which continues the AMIGA spirit.
To me the AMIGA spirit had a lot of elegance and efficiency.
AMIGA did had DMA based sound, DMA based Copper, DMA based Sprites, DMA based Blitter etc.
NATAMI is a real AMIGA so every is DMA based again.
On AMIGA audio was "free". It did not cost any mentionable amount of CPU time.
How much CPU time does 100% correct AMIGA audio emulation in UAE?
How much will it eat if you emulate not 4 voices but 8 or 16?
How much CPU time does 100% correct emulation of sprite and playfield collision take?
How much would it take if the screen resolution is not 320x200 but 1280x1024?
How much CPU time does emulation of the AMIGA Blitter take?
How much would it take if the NATAMI Blitter is 120 times faster?
How much CPU time will emulating of the new 3D Blitter take?
The point is UAE can emulate an old A500 or an old A4000 by brute force.
The NATAMI is to fast to be emulated by bruteforce.
Good examples to me are the new game we are working on.
For example, look at the new 194x screen shot on the NATAMI website.
The new 194x game is much to demanding for UAE.
It could not run smooth on any PC with UAE. (At least any PC available today)
With todays fast PC you can easily emulate an A1200, that clear.
But you can not reach NATAMI performance in software emulation - not even with todays PC.
Certainly at some point you also emulate an NATAMI in software when PC are 10 times faster or so.
The NATAMI is no PC killer - of course not.
But its a faster AMIGA, much faster than the old A4000 or even UAE.
Cheers
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I'm really excited about this one aswell. Hopefully, it'll be released soon.
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One stupid question: How can I post a real picture here instead of a link?
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UAE is a great piece of software - I love UAE - But UAE is only an emulator.
NATAMI is real HW which continues the AMIGA spirit.
No, it has an FPGA which is emulating the Amiga chipset. As for "Amiga Spirit"... Sorry but that is something entirely intangible and means different things to different people.
For it to be considered "real hardware" it would have to be an ASIC.
AMIGA did had DMA based sound, DMA based Copper, DMA based Sprites, DMA based Blitter etc.
NATAMI is a real AMIGA so every is DMA based again.
Of course the SuperAGA chipset is much faster than AGA.
No, Natami is a homebrew project that runs on an FPGA, I don't mean to belittle the project, but claiming it is a "real amiga" is quite a stretch. It also ignores the fact that it is going up against systems with several orders of magnitude faster hardware on UAE.
Of everything you've claimed to be an advantage, the only one that might hold out is "SuperAGA". The question is, how this will perform against RTG, especially in terms of support software.
On AMIGA audio was "free". It did not cost any mentionable amount of CPU time.
How much CPU time does 100% correct AMIGA audio emulation in UAE?
How much will it eat if you emulate not 4 voices but 8 or 16?
How much CPU time does 100% correct emulation of sprite and playfield collision take?
How much would it take if the screen resolution is not 320x200 but 1280x1024?
How much CPU time does emulation of the AMIGA Blitter take?
How much would it take if the NATAMI Blitter is 120 times faster?
How much CPU time will emulating of the new 3D Blitter take?
Quite a bit. The flip side is that the underlying hardware is far far quicker so it can afford to do these things.
Your FPGA on the other hand is a fixed target, and accepting streamlining improvements to the code will remain as fast as it is pretty much.
For example, look at the new 194x screen shot on the NATAMI website.
The new 194x game is much to demanding for UAE.
It could not run smooth on an PC with UAE.
How much do you want to bet that it'd run quite happily on UAE with a suitable slab of silicon thrown at it?
With todays fast PC you can easily emulate an A1200, that clear.
But you can not reach NATAMI performance in software emulation - not even with todays PC.
Certainly at some point you also emulate an NATAMI in software when PC are 10 times faster or so.
I'm sorry, but what colour is the sky on your world? I can with UAE on modern hardware have multiple UAEs operating on separate cores, each one providing the emulation with more grunt then any Natami, A1, Peg, Classic or Sam could ever dream of.
Besides having a small system which just boots only AMIGA, which you can turn on and off as you want - is just nice :)
Now that might be a selling point.
As to the rest... Sorry, no matter how much hype you throw at it, the facts are plain as day.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Natami is a cool concept and I wish it all the success in the world. But trying to make it seem like the greatest thing since sliced bread... It ain't.
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One stupid question: How can I post a real picture here instead of a link?
click on the image button above the text box?
Failing that...
[img]urltoyourimage.jpg[/img]
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But trying to make it seem like the greatest thing since sliced bread... It ain't.
Sliced bread sucks.
The #1 problem with WinUAE is that it requires Windows.
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Natami is all about running and reliving the Amiga experience on NON PC, non emulated enviroment. It's about the excitement of the Amiga trademark fusion of software and hardware capabilites. It's that illusive "it just feels right" feeling of it all, but better, faster stronger...That's the kind of Amiga experience I want to be connected to. A PC, or XBOX running emulation is great but this NAtami is a special thing.
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Natami is kind of a Super-mini-mig if one looks at it honestly.
No one can build a genuine ( Commodore) Amiga without violating some patent laws,and I thought the specs were even lost for the AAA chip.
But I applaud the Natamis for their adherence to the original design philosophy that was Amiga.
I think the number of people willing to actually buy will be quite similar to the number of efika/minimig/SAM buyers ; people who simply want something as close to the original Amiga as possible,something different from the mainstream,and they have the spare money for a new cloak...errr. Amiga even if they have to eat soup every day for a month to pay for it.I want one.Time wil tell if it becomes available in my price range.
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The number of Natami sales will be entirely dependent upon how successful the implementation of duplicating a real Amiga and making it faster and better than the originals turns out to be. I love the idea and want one when they are released, but it is not an easy task, as many of the naysayers have pointed out often. There appears to be good progress being made on the hardware side, so I am hopeful that the developers boards will be ready soon. The consumer version, if it ever sees the light of day, may still be a long way off into our future.
As for anyone making a profit from selling the Natami, it won't likely be the developers, as they have already put so many hundreds of hours into the project that have been dedicated for free, they are probably looking at making $5/hour, if they are very lucky. The dealers, like AmigaKit, are the ones that will make a small profit from distributing the finished consumer product. So, I have much admiration for the small team that is working on Natami. It is the one Amiga project I would most like to see done well and completed. A Classic type Amiga that could be made to run 2 to 5 times faster than the fastest 68060 Classic A4000's of the past would be a great thing to have.
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(http://www.natami.net/gfx/natami16_lx_2small.jpg)
Picture of the NATAMI LX mainboard PCB.
(Funnily my webbrowser does not show any buttons to add an image ...)
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OMG Congratulations. The Natami ppl pulled it off. Look at that picture. A brand new Amiga model. Fantastic work.
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No, it has an FPGA which is emulating the Amiga chipset. As for "Amiga Spirit"... Sorry but that is something entirely intangible and means different things to different people.
For it to be considered "real hardware" it would have to be an ASIC.
Be careful with your definition!
By your definition 90% of the old AMIGA HW is not allowed to be called HW -
including the first AMIGA "Loraine".
Many original Commodore AMIGA developments used programmable logic.
Just look at the 3640, this is the original 68040 CPU card of the A4000.
The original Commodore CPU card consists basically only of "programmable chips".
We all agree that the original Loraine, the Commodore CPU card, and the Cyberstorm - are real Hw, right?
Cheers
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For example, look at the new 194x screen shot on the NATAMI website.
(http://www.natami.net/gfx/194X_640_2.jpg)
The new 194x game is much to demanding for UAE.
It could not run smooth on any PC with UAE. (At least any PC available today)
How much do you want to bet that it'd run quite happily on UAE with a suitable slab of silicon thrown at it?
A bet?
What a nice idea. :-)
I think I would bet up to 5,000 Euro (7400 USD).
So here is my proposal:
Let us agree on a sum and let is then both donate this amount of money to the AMIGA bounty project.
Bartek (the artist behind 194x) and myself only started the new version 2 weeks ago.
We will need probably two more-three month to get the game finished to a reasonable degree.
So lets say by the end of the year we can compare the game on NATAMI and on UAE.
Pressing "i" during the game does show frames/sec.
The party which scores the higher FPS will get their money back.
The looser's money will stay in the AMIGA bounty project fund.
How does this sound?
Its a fair bet where the AMIGA community will be always the winner.
Cheers
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Sliced bread sucks.
The #1 problem with WinUAE is that it requires Windows.
Fortunately I said UAE, not winUAE. Other then that I agree with you :D
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A bet?
What a nice idea. :-)
I think I would bet up to 5,000 Euro (7400 USD).
So here is my proposal:
Let us agree on a sum and let is then both donate this amount of money to the AMIGA bounty project.
Your proposal is a thinly veiled attempt to get me to donate to something I have no interest in.
Bartek (the artist behind 194x) and myself only started the new version 2 weeks ago.
We will need probably two more-three month to get the game finished to a reasonable degree.
So lets say by the end of the year we can compare the game on NATAMI and on UAE.
Pressing "i" during the game does show frames/sec.
The party which scores the higher FPS will get their money back.
The looser's money will stay in the AMIGA bounty project fund.
Right... So you want me to put in a donation and then potentially yank it. I'm sorry, but not even I am that much of a git.
But I'll be more then happy to run your game through UAE when the time comes.
RE the Lorraine: There was nothing programmable about the logic that made it up. Same too with the cyberstorm. Having a flash rom is not the same as having a completely programmable piece of hardware.
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RE the Lorraine: There was nothing programmable about the logic that made it up. Same too with the cyberstorm. Having a flash rom is not the same as having a completely programmable piece of hardware.
On the Cyberstorm MK 1, there are about 15 GAL's.
So its full of programmable logic!
No offence: But could it be that you talk about things like HW and programmable chips, without understanding much about it?
Cheers
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Your proposal is a thinly veiled attempt to get me to donate to something I have no interest in.
No, YOU asked for a bet and then Biggun takes you up on it. If you think the stakes are too high just admit that or do another proposal.
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On the Cyberstorm MK 1, there are about 15 GAL's.
So its full of programmable logic!
I wasn't aware of that.
GALs that would likely require being physically removed and reprogrammed in a PAL programmer is hardly the same as a whole system that was designed from the beginning to use and allow the upgrading in situ of programmable logic.
Attempting to compare a Cyberstorm accelerator with a (as near as damn it) pure fpga system like the Natami or Minimig in an attempt at avoiding key points?
More likely then you think!
No offence: But could it be that you talk about things like HW and programmable chips, without understanding much about it?
Could it be that you're wrong and that you couldn't help but condescend?
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No, YOU asked for a bet and then Biggun takes you up on it. If you think the stakes are too high just admit that or do another proposal.
I'm sorry, I'm being asked to dump thousands of euro (that I don't have) into a donation bucket.
Yes, the stakes are (ridiculously) high, but worse, it's asking me to put in a donation that I would then be morally bound to leave there.
Which is what I object to the most. Like I said - not even I am that much of a git that I would donate to something then yank the donation.
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I'm sorry, I'm being asked to dump thousands of euro (that I don't have) into a donation bucket.
Yes, the stakes are (ridiculously) high, but worse, it's asking me to put in a donation that I would then be morally bound to leave there.
Which is what I object to the most. Like I said - not even I am that much of a git that I would donate to something then yank the donation.
Make a counterproposal then; when you win you get to donate the money to a cause you do like. Could even be yourself? Also you could propose a lower realistic amount?
It seems to me you're just backing out. You got scared when Biggun took you up on your own bet. You seemed so sure so why back out now?
To me it doesn't matter who wins, but IMHO it's lame to challenge someone and when he accepts, to back out.
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Make a counterproposal then; when you win you get to donate the money to a cause you do like. Could even be yourself? Also you could propose a lower realistic amount?
It seems to me you're just backing out. You got scared when Biggun took you up on your own bet. You seemed so sure so why back out now?
To me it doesn't matter who wins, but IMHO it's lame to challenge someone and when he accepts, to back out.
Hey, he brought money into this, not me. Scared? No. A bankrupt: Yes.
There's nothing to back out of - I'm not putting up money I DO NOT HAVE.
Counter proposal.... I'll give up smoking and donate what I save in smoking to a childrens charity.
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Counter proposal.... I'll give up smoking and donate what I save in smoking to a childrens charity.
Sound like a good charity to me! And giving up smoking is a good thing! Well, it was for me anyway...
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Sound like a good charity to me! And giving up smoking is a good thing! Well, it was for me anyway...
The lulzy part about this is that I'm now having to root for him... Which seems quite odd as bets go...
Question is which childrens charity...
Any suggestions? I was thinking perhaps something to do with orphans and also to codify length...
6months worth of money saved perhaps?
That equates to about £260 I think (£5 a week in tobacco).
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The lulzy part about this is that I'm now having to root for him... Which seems quite odd as bets go...
Question is which childrens charity...
Any suggestions? I was thinking perhaps something to do with orphans and also to codify length...
6months worth of money saved perhaps?
That equates to about £260 I think (£5 a week in tobacco).
I think that's fair. Let's see if Biggun agrees, then you can set a date for the bet and some rules about what to test. The test program should only the same code that can run on both Natami and UAE and not be optimised for any platform for example.
If this can be a serious bet, heck I'd even put some money in! Maybe we could have a poll and a bounty that people can donate to. When you win the money goes to childrens charity or else it goes to a cause Biggun chooses?
Now, I have to choose which side to bet on...
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I was thinking perhaps something to do with orphans and also to codify length...
6months worth of money saved perhaps?
That equates to about £260 I think (£5 a week in tobacco).
This is a nice idea also.
Lets do this bet the way you proposed.
The looser (one with lower FPS) will donate some money to some orphan thingie.
£5 per week was your proposal for halve a year. 5x26 = £130.
Is this OK?
Can you program/code?
If yes then I've an offer for you.
I can give you access to our source code repository.
This way can could yourself even influence our development of "194X Deluxe".
My believe the game will be unplayable (because of slowness) on UAE.
But if I give you access to the source you might be able to change this :-)
Fair proposal?
Cheers
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The test program should only the same code that can run on both Natami and UAE and not be optimised for any platform for example.
Then the game will not run on UAE at all.
The game makes direct use of SuperAGA screenmodes.
To run the game on UAE you need to run it an an RTG screen.
Running the game on UAE is therefore possible and the NATAMI but different routines for opening screen (CyberGFX vs AMIGA copperlist on NATAMI) and different functions for blitting would need to be used.
An NATAMI I'll directly go for the AMIGA Blitter. On UAE this does not work for CyberGFX screen this means we need to e.g. use the CyberGFX functions there.
Makes sense doesn't it?
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Then the game will not run on UAE at all.
The game makes direct use of SuperAGA screenmodes.
To run the game on UAE you need to run it an an RTG screen.
Running the game on UAE is therefore possible and the NATAMI but different routines for opening screen (CyberGFX vs AMIGA copperlist on NATAMI) and different functions for blitting would need to be used.
An NATAMI I'll directly go for the AMIGA Blitter. On UAE this does not work for CyberGFX screen this means we need to e.g. use the CyberGFX functions there.
Makes sense doesn't it?
Yes, that makes sense. But for a fair comparison you'd need an AGA compatible program to see if UAE or Natami is the faster Amiga compatible.
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This is a nice idea also.
Lets do this bet the way you proposed.
The looser (one with lower FPS) will donate some money to some orphan thingie.
£5 per week was your proposal for halve a year. 5x26 = £130.
Is this OK?
That's fine. I should have broke out the calculator when I tried to do math heh...
Can you program/code?
If yes then I've an offer for you.
I can give you access to our source code repository.
This way can could yourself even influence our development of "194X Deluxe".
I used to code in REBOL... Also a bit of bash scripting. Other then that. No, sorry.
My believe the game will be unplayable (because of slowness) on UAE.
But if I give you access to the source you might be able to change this :-)
Fair proposal?
Cheers
Heh, as I'm pretty certain my abilities wouldn't enable me to do that I do feel I am somewhat at a disadvantage.
-edit-
And it won't be unplayable due to "slowness" if you really are coding for Natami only hardware, the game simply won't run.
Yes, that makes sense. But for a fair comparison you'd need an AGA compatible program to see if UAE or Natami is the faster Amiga compatible.
^^^
This.
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UAE only provides a fraction of the features of the NATAMI of course.
Those who is satisfied with UAE or with the capabilities of the classic A500 does not need a NATAMI anyway.
The NATAMI is for AMIGA fans which want a real AMIGA which has more features than UAE. :-)
WinUAE/AmigaForever 2009 provides more than classic A500 capabilities.
http://www.amigaforever.com/tour/af_amikit_amigasys.html
WinUAE supports host Warp3D(QuarkTex), host P96, host AHI, host MIDI, BSDsocket emu, Windows Drive Share, fast JIT-68K (based on host's CPU capabilities).
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WinUAE provides more than classic A500 capabilities.
No one said that it would not. :-)
What we said was that those that still have their A500 and are fully satisfied with it.
Or those that are fully satisfies with UAE don't need no NATAMI or any other news system.
Agreed?
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A bet?
What a nice idea. :-)
I think I would bet up to 5,000 Euro (7400 USD).
So here is my proposal:
Let us agree on a sum and let is then both donate this amount of money to the AMIGA bounty project.
Bartek (the artist behind 194x) and myself only started the new version 2 weeks ago.
We will need probably two more-three month to get the game finished to a reasonable degree.
So lets say by the end of the year we can compare the game on NATAMI and on UAE.
Pressing "i" during the game does show frames/sec.
The party which scores the higher FPS will get their money back.
The looser's money will stay in the AMIGA bounty project fund.
How does this sound?
Its a fair bet where the AMIGA community will be always the winner.
Cheers
On the 194X subject, it's looks like Capcom System 1/2 game which a modern PC can emulate with ease (e.g. FinalBurn, search youtube for examples).
In terms of multi-threaded emulation, WinUAE/E-UAE is not in the same level as Dolphin (Wii emulator).
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On the 194X subject, it's looks like Capcom System 1/2 game which a modern PC can emulate with ease (e.g. FinalBurn, search youtube for examples).
Does this mean you would like to take the bet then?
Do you really believe UAE can run "194x Deluxe" in real time?
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On the 194X subject, it's looks like Capcom System 1/2 game which a modern PC can emulate with ease (e.g. FinalBurn, search youtube for examples).
In terms of multi-threaded emulation, WinUAE/E-UAE is not in the same level as Dolphin (Wii emulator).
Whether a PC can emulate a Capcom system is not relevant IMHO. It should be about running Amiga software.
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No one said that it would not. :-)
What we said was that those that still have their A500 and are fully satisfied with it.
Or those that are fully satisfies with UAE don't need no NATAMI or any other news system.
Agreed?
I disagreed with the substance or context or the implications of
UAE only provides a fraction of the features of the NATAMI of course.
Those who is satisfied with UAE or with the capabilities of the classic A500 does not need a NATAMI anyway.
PS; I'm not the only one with this disagreement.
On per point basis
UAE only provides a fraction of the features of the NATAMI of course.
With WinUAE or IcAROS with J-UAE, I would disagree with this statement. Writing to Natami's exclusive features involves writing new code i.e. not much different to neo-Amiga native programs.
Those who is satisfied with UAE or with the capabilities of the classic A500 does not need a NATAMI anyway.
There are other Amigas besides the classic A500 e.g. CD32 or A1200.
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Does this mean you would like to take the bet then?
Do you really believe UAE can run "194x Deluxe" in real time?
Assuming that its coded in such a way that it can run under something that UAE can emulate, sure.
Now if it's coded for some exotic hitherto never released (emulated) hardware then no, it won't run at all.
But that is not the same as saying Natami will outpace UAE.
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Whether a PC can emulate a Capcom system is not relevant IMHO. It should be about running Amiga software.
What I said is it's like Capcom's 194x games. Again, writing to Natami's exclusive features involves writing new code i.e. not much different to neo-Amiga native programs.
I need to locate Finalburn SDL source code and port it to AROS.
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Oh goodey this thread went off topic...
Yeah the NatAmi development mainboard has been put together and Thomas is finding the bugs in the design with it. There's bound to be some issues with it, but that's what these boards are for, finding the things that are wrong and fixing them.
Once that's done he'll get the SuperAGA system running on it user a 68060/30 on a daughterboard and verify it's AGA compatibility. This will no doubt highlight bugs and incompatibilities too. That's ALSO what this board is for.
After all/most of the above issues have been resolved he'll probably start work on a version that can be sold to early adopters.
Can we stop with the willy-waving about UAE vs NatAmi vs MiniMig vs GodZilla?
Andy
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Oh goodey this thread went off topic...
Yeah the NatAmi development mainboard has been put together and Thomas is finding the bugs in the design with it. There's bound to be some issues with it, but that's what these boards are for, finding the things that are wrong and fixing them.
Once that's done he'll get the SuperAGA system running on it user a 68060/30 on a daughterboard and verify it's AGA compatibility. This will no doubt highlight bugs and incompatibilities too. That's ALSO what this board is for.
After all/most of the above issues have been resolved he'll probably start work on a version that can be sold to early adopters.
Can we stop with the willy-waving about UAE vs NatAmi vs MiniMig vs GodZilla?
Andy
I didn't start the sub-thread topic.
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If, if, if, NatAmi is ever finished and you show it to three Amiga users, one will absolutely love it, one will say it's not a real Amiga and one will say it's too expensive and it's better to just use UAE.
UAE performance is directly proportional to the users' belief in virtual machines. Frankly I love virtual machines. I have an Amiga, a Mac, a PC, a Linux box, a Solaris Box, an AROS box and a Haiku box(!) and they all fits under my desk inside my Mac Pro! Non-Virtual machines sole purpose is to run virtual machines...
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UAE performance is directly proportional to the users' belief in virtual machines. Frankly I love virtual machines. I have an Amiga, a Mac, a PC, a Linux box, a Solaris Box and a Haiku box and they all fits under my desk inside my Mac Pro! Non-Virtual machines sole purpose is to run virtual machines...
Must admit virtualisation is something I do want to explore more.
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Hi Leander,
RE the Lorraine: There was nothing programmable about the logic that made it up.
Just as info, (not to be nitpicking) :-)
Have a look at the LORRAINE pictures.
(http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/prototypes/cbm-lorraine-daphne-agnus.jpg)
LORRAINE and NATAMI are basically developed 100% the same.
20 years ago you needed of course halve a million gals for developing the chips.
Today we are in the lucky position the FPGA (GAL's bigger brothers) are so fast and big today that you can put the whole chipset plus a 68K CPU into a single FPGA.
As you can see Lorraine and NATAMI have a lot in common ;-)
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Hi Leander,
Just as info, (not to be nitpicking) :-)
Heh, of course it isn't....
Have a look at the LORRAINE pictures.
(http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/prototypes/cbm-lorraine-daphne-agnus.jpg)
LORRAINE and NATAMI are basically developed 100% the same.
20 years ago you needed of course halve a million gals for developing the chips.
Today we are in the lucky position the FPGA (GAL's bigger brothers) are so fast and big today that you can put the whole chipset plus a 68K CPU into a single FPGA.
As you can see Lorraine and NATAMI have a lot in common ;-)
Yup, both hardware emulations.
Thanks for the correction.
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Yup, both hardware emulations.
.
Both are hardware.
Both are developed hardware.
But Emulations is not the correct term.
If you want to develop something being it
- a zorro memory card
- a scsi card
- a network card
- CPU card
- a scandoubler
Or a Chipset or a new computer.
You will ALWAYS use "Programmable Logic Elements" to do this.
Every AMIGA card was build with this chips - not only the prototypes but also the production versions.
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But of course, Lorraine was bleeding edge, NatAmi if completed would be about 15 years off trailing edge...
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But of course, Lorraine was bleeding edge, NatAmi if completed would be about 15 years off trailing edge...
Troll?
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Both are hardware.
Both are developed hardware.
But Emulations is not the correct term.
Oh I think it is (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/emulation).
Every AMIGA card was build with this chips - not only the prototypes but also the production versions.
Pretty certain that my A500, A1200 and 3000's chipsets were all asics. Now whilst there may have been support logic either in the form of PALs or GALs, the primary components were all fixed, non programmable silicon.
In fact I believe one of the complaints about AGA was the fact that it used the older NMOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMOS_logic) instead of newer CMOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS) manufacturing techniques.
Honestly though, this is getting pretty silly.
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Troll?
Honest.
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Oh I think it is (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/emulation).
Pretty certain that my A500, A1200 and 3000's chipsets were all asics.
*sigh* ok fine, so anything implemented in an FGPA is emulation and if you then burn that FPGA image to an ASIC it suddenly becomes non-emulation.
Great way to split hairs but fine it's emulation.
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Truth.
Troll?
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Troll?
No he's just saying what he thinks.
It's not going to be a multi-core 3GHz machine with a 128core GPU.
It's just going to be what, at the time, some home users hoped the Amiga could have become.
Not all users, not pro-users, just Thomas, you and the rest of the NatAmi team (including me).
If others don't like it they can us UAE on modern hardware, or they can take the open bits and build their own ideas/version. Or they can modify the MiniMig, or MikeJ's arcade board (which incidentally I want one of Mike! :-D) to run an AGA softcore etc.
I really find all of this back n' forth sniping to be counter productive for everyone involved.
Andy
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No he's just saying what he thinks.
It's not going to be a multi-core 3GHz machine with a 128core GPU.
It's just going to be what, at the time, some home users hoped the Amiga could have become.
I'd like to add that I do wish Natami all the best and hope that it really does live up to its potential.
Not all users, not pro-users, just Thomas, you and the rest of the NatAmi team.
Personally I think Thomas could do worse then try to leverage Natami into the fpga development scene. A low cost, high performance board at a reasonable price (I've seen some of the prices charged for dev boards... it's borderline criminal) would probably do quite well there.
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@the_leander
Cool.
Yeah the prices for even cheap FPGA board can be seriously crazy. It's good that they managed to get the MiniMig board to be so (respectively) cheap.
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I think there is a perception here that pointing out the NatAmi will be "out of date" by a considerable margin is an attack on the project.
I don't think it is. After all, the Minimig is an OCS clone. Nobody is criticising that.
I don't mind that the Natami will be X years "behind" current hardware. After all, I have several amigas and they are all very much yesterdays hardware. It doesn't dim my enthusiasm for it.
I don't think that being modern was ever it's raison d'etre. Simply being what AGA could have been would seem to be what it is trying to be.
I'd be perfectly happy to own such a machine alongside my other classics.
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But it is a fair comparison. I bought my original Amiga because it was cutting edge. Thatwas what the feeling was around the Loraine. We were on a journey "where no one had gone before." Natami lacks that feeling, it's different. Natami would be a better retro experience, not that there's anything wrong with that.
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But it is a fair comparison. I bought my original Amiga because it was cutting edge. Thatwas what the feeling was around the Loraine. We were on a journey "where no one had gone before." Natami lacks that feeling, it's different. Natami would be a better retro experience, not that there's anything wrong with that.
Dude, maybe you did not notice. This is an AMIGA forum.
AMIGA is not bleeding edge since about 15 years anymore.
Nothing which came out since then for AMIGA was bleeding edge.
SAM is not bleeding edge, A1 was not bleeding edge and NATAMI is also not bleeding edge.
If you want bleeding edge then you need to go to forum about Cloud computing on CELL Chip,
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Dude, maybe you did not notice. This is an AMIGA forum.
Dude, maybe you did not notice - he was talking about comparing two different solutions to the issue of being able to play with Amiga software, each with their own quirks, drawbacks and benefits.
It's a valid comparison, one which many of Natami's potential customers are going to be making.
I think in terms of raw performance UAE is going to win it every time (Natami's SuperAGA modes notwithstanding).
However, I think Natami might be able to offer a more... Authentic Amiga feel.
The question will be then: Is that feeling worth how much Natami is going to set me back? For some, it almost certainly will be.
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One point about the UAE comparison thus far.
From the Natami site, the SuperAGA features include 16-bit audio, 32-bit graphics and 3D acceleration, as well as a large speed increase over AGA.
Now, these are obviously all nice to have but the thing is, how exactly will the 16-bit audio, 32-bit graphics and 3D acceleration be leveraged?
All existing m68k amiga software that supports 32-bit graphics does so via RTG. The vast majority of software that supports 16-bit audio does so via AHI (in both cases there are examples of software tied to a specific board). And finally, all existing m68k software that supports 3D does so via Warp3D (some direct virge stuff, not much).
So, in effect, unless you intend to break compatibility with all this software, you will have to expose the features of SuperAGA via existing APIs. Admittedly, you can allow hardware banging too, but you can bang your RTG card if you know what you are doing and are crazy enough to want to.
If you do use these APIs then you immediately lose the claim that UAE isn't faster. After all, UAE implements native RTG and AHI and there is even a native OpenGL based Warp3D. With UAE, you get AGA that is "fast enough" and RTG/AHI that far exceeds the performance of any compatible amiga hardware.
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I was thinking that the purpose of Natami was to run all the old 68k programs faster than any other Classic Amiga could, plus improve upon AGA which would allow NEW applications and games to be written that would be higher resolution SAGA. Then there is the question of will there be any programmers out there that will use their time to code for this new SAGA Amiga compatible system.
Maybe I am incorrect in my assumption of what is the purpose of the Natami?
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If you do use these APIs then you immediately lose the claim that UAE isn't faster. After all, UAE implements native RTG and AHI and there is even a native OpenGL based Warp3D. With UAE, you get AGA that is "fast enough" and RTG/AHI that far exceeds the performance of any compatible amiga hardware.
I'll not comment on the RTG/AHI/UAE stuff but I am in the process of writing OpenGL ES 1.0 (fixed pipeline) support for the gfx. I've not used Warp3D before and at the moment I simply don't have enough time to look at it :( maybe once GL is done but after that I'll most likely be bug-fixing and completing bits of the implementation I choose to miss due to time pressures.
Andy
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@amigadave
Yeah that is the idea. It just gets lost in the Hyperbole sometimes.
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@AJCopeland
If you get a working OpenGL, then you'd probably want to release a version of MiniGL for that. Not that many apps use Warp3D directly since it is a low level API, they tend to be GL based apps linked against minigl. They'd still require recompiling to use it though.
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most of amiga 3d apps i came across were compiled to work with storm mesa, that is they depend on agl set of libraries, which in turn are aware of warp3d layer underneath. perhaps the best thing to do would be to keep once done choices in a way that once compiled applications could work across as many brands of amiga systems as possible both old and new. how about keeping this mesa compatibility in form of agl.library if not warp3d, which is really invisible or say transparent to most programs?
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It goes without saying that every established 3D interface (by which I mean on the m68k amiga) would require support for compatibility. I picked warp3d/minigl since many 3D games used this combination.
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again if i recall right minigl must be statically linked to the application which then interfaces directly with w3d. to maintain backwards compatibility probably a w3d wrapper would be needed. a software solution in form of wazp3d exists already and is being maintained. minigl games are mostly those few done by hyperion, am i right?
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Well, I don't know much about electronics but can an FPGA like the one needed for the Natami be implemented in a device like a cell phone ? If so there could be a market for it provided it had OCS/AGA compatibility. Just imagine a new cell phone that could run all classic Amiga games.
Another very cool use for Natami would be to be able to rewrite old games with better gfx. But for that the new SuperAGA modes would have to be able to be programmed in the same way as the old chipset. So, providing the original software owners allowed it, there could be a version of Shadow of the Beast with 24 bit graphics and huge sprites with many added video effects.
A 32 bit copper with 640 pixel resolution would have done wonders in the video effects market at the time, just imagine what the toaster would have been with AAA. Commodore had really a bunch of incompetent or sold out (if you want to go the conspiracy theory way) idiots managing it, I get amazed every time I think about, even after 15 years:)
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@AJCopeland
If you get a working OpenGL, then you'd probably want to release a version of MiniGL for that. Not that many apps use Warp3D directly since it is a low level API, they tend to be GL based apps linked against minigl. They'd still require recompiling to use it though.
I don't think that backward compatibility with old Warp3D games should be considered at this time, if ever. The Natami team has never claimed that it would be 100% compatible with all old 68K games and applications, as very few true Classic Amigas are 100% compatible with 100% of those old apps and games either.
Natami is shooting for as much compatibility with older 68k apps and games as possible, but the focus is and should be on future apps and games that have better performance due the the increased speed and resolution available on the Natami and ONLY on the Natami.
I would expect and hope for Natami specific, or "native" games and applications to be written by a few programmers that still appreciate what it is like to use an Amiga. I am assuming that Natami will run AmigaOS3.9 from the start and that over time we will see more enhancements to the OS itself, like a Boing Bag 3, or an unofficial AmigaOS3.91, 3.92, 3.93, etc.
Natami native games and applications are no different that writing something only for the CSPPC/BPPC, or for a certain 680x0 CPU, or the difference between OCS, ECS and AGA. Now (when Natami is finished) we will have a fourth option to write to that is SuperAGA and can be more demanding than what was possible on an 68060/50MHz.
Of course, programmers that want their work to be appreciated by a wider audience will make two versions of graphics, AGA and SuperAGA and will write the games or apps to be able to run sufficiently well on an 68020/14MHz or better, or if it is a more demanding app or game, maybe the minimum spec Amiga could be a 68030/40MHz, which would cover a lot of the accelerators out there.
My point is that it will be nice to have this faster than 68060/50MHz, SuperAGA Amiga compatible computer that some programmers can take advantage of with new code.
I guess someone could redo the graphics on some of the old Amiga 68k games to use SuperAGA resolutions, but I would hope for some original works, instead of just prettying up some of the old games and applications.
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great news! I hope it becomes reality :-)
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@amigadave
If you look at what you have just written, if that is the case, then why make a SuperAGA at all? The only reason to have AGA is for compatibility and much is made of SuperAGA's backwards compatibility. Compatibility is therefore an important consideration. I think it would be foolish not to consider compatibility with the broadest spectrum of software for the sake of not considering existing APIs.
One of the biggest criticisms levelled at the "next generation" machines initially was the fact there was little native software and no compatibility with legacy software that hit the metal.
I would suggest that without exposing the NatAmi SuperAGA features via existing APIs, you'd run into part of the same problem - new hardware with nothing that really takes advantage of it.
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@amigadave
If you look at what you have just written, if that is the case, then why make a SuperAGA at all? The only reason to have AGA is for compatibility and much is made of SuperAGA's backwards compatibility. Compatibility is therefore an important consideration. I think it would be foolish not to consider compatibility with the broadest spectrum of software for the sake of not considering existing APIs.
One of the biggest criticisms levelled at the "next generation" machines initially was the fact there was little native software and no compatibility with legacy software that hit the metal.
I would suggest that without exposing the NatAmi SuperAGA features via existing APIs, you'd run into part of the same problem - new hardware with nothing that really takes advantage of it.
I guess I will have to read what I wrote again, but I certainly did not mean to imply that the greatest amount of compatibility should be implemented. But I think it was you, or someone else in this very thread who pointed out how little existing software was written to take advantage of Warp3D, or any kind of 3D on the Amiga in the past.
My point was that if that is truly the case, then creating a new type of 3D for this "SuperAGA" PLUS retaining 80% to 90% compatibility with the thousands of existing Amiga software titles would not be a bad thing. If they can somehow create a better 3D system AND still keep compatibility with Warp3D, then so much the better. Again, my only point is that if some percentage of older Amiga software is no longer compatible with the Natami, it will be the price we may need to pay for progressing to a better, faster, more colorful and higher resolution Amiga compatible system.
It is my understanding that the Natami team is doing everything they can to retain as much compatibility with all of the existing Amiga models and software as possible.
Edit: The reason for having SuperAGA is to provide a step forward that will allow more colors and resolution for future programs. A step forward that many Amiga users would have liked Commodore to make back in 1990 or some time close to that.
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Edit: The reason for having SuperAGA is to provide a step forward that will allow more colors and resolution for future programs. A step forward that many Amiga users would have liked Commodore to make back in 1990 or some time close to that.
This is exactly the problem that RTG already solved in 1993.
I'm not saying don't expose the hardware to metal bashers who want to do so for fun, but for OS clean stuff, using RTG seems logical. Pick either P96 or Cybergraphics and make a clone API that runs on SAGA.
Then you get to run all the RTG compatible software. The same applies to AHI and SAGA's improved Paula.
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In essence, Natami is a solution looking for a problem...
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In essence, Natami is a solution looking for a problem...
Now that you found it, it succeeded?
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This is exactly the problem that RTG already solved in 1993.
But RTG never solved the problem, it just worked its way around it. RTG never _replaced_ native displays, it just added more on the gfx board, never would the gfx board run the native displays. With SuperVGA however, you do replace native displays, and the new ones you add also run on the very same chipset. RTG is pointless since there is just one chipset to worry about here, unlike gfx cards of which there are so many.
I'm not saying don't expose the hardware to metal bashers who want to do so for fun, but for OS clean stuff, using RTG seems logical. Pick either P96 or Cybergraphics and make a clone API that runs on SAGA.
But why bother with CGfx and P96? Here you at last have capable native Amiga hardware, why would you want to toss a layer of drivers systems with dubious licensing issues in between?
Then you get to run all the RTG compatible software. The same applies to AHI and SAGA's improved Paula.
Geh - no! This is exactly the opposite of what this project is about :laughing:
There is no 3D engine for AmigaOS that runs on native chipset AFAIK, Warp3D at al all require RTG in form of CGFx or P96. On the other hand I dont know of a single game or piece of software that uses Warp3D and that is really worth the extra effort it would require to be compatible. IMO, Natami does the right thing when ignoring whatever happened after 1993 :)
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Dude, maybe you did not notice. This is an AMIGA forum.
AMIGA is not bleeding edge since about 15 years anymore.
Nothing which came out since then for AMIGA was bleeding edge.
SAM is not bleeding edge, A1 was not bleeding edge and NATAMI is also not bleeding edge.
If you want bleeding edge then you need to go to forum about Cloud computing on CELL Chip,
AROS X86 (and ATI/NVIDIA GpGPU(1)) runs on "bleeding edge" hardware. STI CELL is not the only stream processor with a large GFLOP numbers. SAM can be link with current gen ATI Radeon HD 4350 i.e. go with Xbox360 route(2) for heavy GFLOPs.
Without factoring VMX128, CPU clock speed and L2 cache, PPE is almost the same level as PPC440. The problem with AOS is middleware support. The cost of SAMFlex doesn't benefit bang-for-buck scenarios.
1. Basic support only.
2. Majority of streaming GFLOPs provided by GpGPU.
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No, it has an FPGA which is emulating the Amiga chipset. As for "Amiga Spirit"... Sorry but that is something entirely intangible and means different things to different people.
For it to be considered "real hardware" it would have to be an ASIC.
Remember then that a big part of the telecom infrastructure, including internet is in your definition not running on "real hardware" but just FPGAs.
greets,
Staf.
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But RTG never solved the problem, it just worked its way around it. RTG never _replaced_ native displays, it just added more on the gfx board, never would the gfx board run the native displays. With SuperVGA however, you do replace native displays, and the new ones you add also run on the very same chipset.
And how much current software is going to be able to take advantage of the new screenmodes?
RTG is pointless since there is just one chipset to worry about here, unlike gfx cards of which there are so many.
Now, I may be wrong on this, but I thought the whole point of using something like cgfx or p96 was to avoid this very issue - you write to allow the use of APIs without having to worry about the underlying chipset. Thus, when you upgrade you get more features at a much lower cost in terms of hardware development.
Indeed many of the problems with the Amiga and not being able to shed the "classic" chipset is down to people writing direct to the hardware.
But why bother with CGfx and P96? Here you at last have capable native Amiga hardware, why would you want to toss a layer of drivers systems with dubious licensing issues in between?
In a word? Compatibility.
There is no 3D engine for AmigaOS that runs on native chipset AFAIK
Quake runs on AGA, poorly, but it runs.
, Warp3D at al all require RTG in form of CGFx or P96. On the other hand I dont know of a single game or piece of software that uses Warp3D and that is really worth the extra effort it would require to be compatible.
Question is, is it worth the effort of learning to bang the hardware (again) when there are APIs that are current on the Amiga and already have software to use on them.
IMO, Natami does the right thing when ignoring whatever happened after 1993 :)
I have to be honest, the way you're describing it... Certainly from a user's perspective you just made the whole deal that much less appealing. The idea of purposefully disallowing a huge amount of software (or at the very least, hobbling it) does seem very counter-productive. It's like taking all the shortcomings of Amithlon but with much less of the benefit.
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Remember then that a big part of the telecom infrastructure, including internet is in your definition not running on "real hardware" but just FPGAs.
Citation?
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Remember then that a big part of the telecom infrastructure, including internet is in your definition not running on "real hardware" but just FPGAs.
greets,
Staf.
Modern X86 CPUs doesn't natively execute X86 ISA i.e. converts/translate/decode from X86 CISC to a custom RISC like ISA. Modern X86 decoders has can be reprogrammed e.g. micro-code updates (hardware bug fixes).
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Modern X86 CPUs doesn't natively execute X86 ISA i.e. converts/translate/decode from X86 CISC to a custom RISC like ISA. Modern X86 decoders has can be reprogrammed e.g. micro-code updates (hardware bug fixes).
Was it you that said something like 20% of the logic on a modern x86 is dedicated to this task?
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Was it you that said something like 20% of the logic on a modern x86 is dedicated to this task?
In the early RISCy X86 era, it takes a large chunk of silicon. These days, X86 CISC tax is insignificant i.e. X86 ISA didn't change much.
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And how much current software is going to be able to take advantage of the new screenmodes?
Depends how it's written. Some software will happily gobble up the extra chipram and faster graphics, for example DPaint might be able to happily animate fast in 1080x720 HAM8 modes. How does that work on UAE?
Now, I may be wrong on this, but I thought the whole point of using something like cgfx or p96 was to avoid this very issue - you write to allow the use of APIs without having to worry about the underlying chipset. Thus, when you upgrade you get more features at a much lower cost in terms of hardware development.
Correct. But you seem to forget what Natami is about. Doesnt it strike you somewhat strange to argue about chipsets when the Natami will use a 68k processor? It's very much a souped up Super MiniMig, not a SAM or Pegasos replacement, for crying out loud.
Indeed many of the problems with the Amiga and not being able to shed the "classic" chipset is down to people writing direct to the hardware.
And that is exactly what Natami is about, letting people have some hardware to write directly to again :)
Quake runs on AGA, poorly, but it runs.
Is that really the best you can think of? :laughing:
Question is, is it worth the effort of learning to bang the hardware (again) when there are APIs that are current on the Amiga and already have software to use on them.
Again, you seem to have forgotten (or never grasped) what Natami is about. It's for those who already know how to bang hardware, and would like to keep banging hardware, and for those of us who can enjoy what comes out of it all, and can afford it.
The rest of you should rather look for better hardware for OS4.x and MorphOS instead of wasting time on this useless debate :)
I have to be honest, the way you're describing it... Certainly from a user's perspective you just made the whole deal that much less appealing. The idea of purposefully disallowing a huge amount of software (or at the very least, hobbling it) does seem very counter-productive. It's like taking all the shortcomings of Amithlon but with much less of the benefit.
Correct - you're learning now ;)
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Citation?
Open up your nearest Cisco router and have a peek :laughing:
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Depends how it's written. Some software will happily gobble up the extra chipram and faster graphics, for example DPaint might be able to happily animate fast in 1080x720 HAM8 modes. How does that work on UAE?
I wouldn't know, I stopped using DPaint about the time I first picked up PPaint. Having a graphics card on the A3k it simply didn't make any sense to continue to use it.
Correct. But you seem to forget what Natami is about. Doesnt it strike you somewhat strange to argue about chipsets when the Natami will use a 68k processor? It's very much a souped up Super MiniMig, not a SAM or Pegasos replacement, for crying out loud.
I'm not arguing chipsets.
Is that really the best you can think of? :laughing:
Nope, but it was something that I used a lot. I figured it'd be easier to point to something that many folk might have come into contact with.
Again, you seem to have forgotten (or never grasped) what Natami is about. It's for those who already know how to bang hardware, and would like to keep banging hardware, and for those of us who can enjoy what comes out of it all, and can afford it.
And here was me thinking that was to allow users to actually use their software on hardware that wasn't over a decade old.
Well, good luck with that.
Correct - you're learning now ;)
Sanctimonious much?
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Open up your nearest Cisco router and have a peek :laughing:
Never having owned anything from Cisco and not really fancying a journey curtesy of the flashing blue light taxi service I'll pass.
Visiting wiki and other places however is on the cards...
Seems that just as virtualisation of operating systems on desktops is starting to become more commonplace, the hardware in the backbones is becoming emulated...
I wonder how long it'll be before people look back and laugh at the concept of non programmable hardware.
Also means that pretty much the last gasp of market space that the ppc occupied is under attack.
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I wouldn't know, I stopped using DPaint about the time I first picked up PPaint. Having a graphics card on the A3k it simply didn't make any sense to continue to use it.
I used both alot, but animating in PPaint was pain compared to DPaint.
I'm not arguing chipsets.
You were arguing that they should use RTG for SuperAGA.
But then, what would be the point of SuperAGA?
Indeed, why isnt the Natami project rather about building a PowerPC machine with common graphics card etc? :)
And here was me thinking that was to allow users to actually use their software on hardware that wasn't over a decade old.
That still applies though, as most software also runs just fine on native AGA chipset without any RTG around.
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You were arguing that they should use RTG for SuperAGA.
But then, what would be the point of SuperAGA?
I'm saying why dismiss it out of hand? I don't understand the outright dismissal of having more compatibility and having a quick and easy way of allowing more modern applications access to the more advanced features. Having it would also simplify development of software across the range - at least as far as 68k goes.
Indeed, why isnt the Natami project rather about building a PowerPC machine with common graphics card etc? :)
You're asking the wrong person.
That still applies though, as most software also runs just fine on native AGA chipset without any RTG around.
I still don't get the resentment.
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I wonder how long it'll be before people look back and laugh at the concept of non programmable hardware.
Not too long I hope, fast softcore CPUs and chipset will solve all our current hardware problems ;)
Also means that pretty much the last gasp of market space that the ppc occupied is under attack.
PowerPC has been in the middle of this all the time, it's been common for years to use FPGAs with integrated PowerPC cores.
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??
I don't really understand this discussion about wether using RTG/Hardware banging for programming on SuperAGA. I was under the impression that both things will be possible. I remember some comment made by Gunnar in the Natami forum about making a CyberGFX driver for SuperAGA.
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=1277
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Hmmm. Something about Cisco products... I've never had any device from them, in Spain they're really rare. However it could be due the meaning for the "cisco" word in spanish.
Cisco in spanish means some sort of mess... So i don't think someone could rely on a brand with such a name... It's like if you buy something it will come to you completely messed up.
XD
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just to see why would i prefer something like natami to:
1. a classic with a decent gfx card > both aga and gfx output on the same interface much like gfx card with a (expensive) flickerfixer, hardware 3d accel of what effective very few usable solutions are available at all. better gfx bus throughout (a killer disadvantage of zorro bus)
2. nextgen ppc amiga like sam, peg or a1, aros solutions: native 68k, upgradable hardware configuration, native gfx backwards compatibility, which is what most people still want amiga for today (im not talking of if its reasonable)
disadvantage here: raw computing speed, raw 3d performance if ever there will ever be sofisticated 3d apps for the platform.
3. amitlon, winuae: no need for underlaying 3rd party os. this seems not a much trouble on amitlon , but as it is discontinued...
as for me i hate windows underneath uae. this is a showsopper for me . just a personal opinion.
well, thats it i guess.
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I remember some comment made by Gunnar in the Natami forum about making a CyberGFX driver for SuperAGA.
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=1277
CyberGraphX is a proprietary system, so I can see several "problems" in writing a driver for it.
But hey, don't listen to me, I bet natami team has some über reversers in their midst.
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just to see why would i prefer something like natami to:
1. a classic with a decent gfx card > both aga and gfx output on the same interface much like gfx card with a (expensive) flickerfixer, hardware 3d accel of what effective very few usable solutions are available at all. better gfx bus throughout (a killer disadvantage of zorro bus)
2. nextgen ppc amiga like sam, peg or a1, aros solutions: native 68k, upgradable hardware configuration, native gfx backwards compatibility, which is what most people still want amiga for today (im not talking of if its reasonable)
disadvantage here: raw computing speed, raw 3d performance if ever there will ever be sofisticated 3d apps for the platform.
3. amitlon, winuae: no need for underlaying 3rd party os. this seems not a much trouble on amitlon , but as it is discontinued...
as for me i hate windows underneath uae. this is a showsopper for me . just a personal opinion.
well, thats it i guess.
AROS will have an integrated UAE-JIT. Refer to http://o1i.blogspot.com/
The underlaying OS is AROS.
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CyberGraphX is a proprietary system, so I can see several "problems" in writing a driver for it.
But hey, don't listen to me, I bet natami team has some über reversers in their midst.
I don't suppose a driver is strictly necessary, but something that spoofs cyber****.library and the functionality therein. After all, for the rest you just rely on graphics.library, which I assume they'd need to hook into in the same way RTG does.
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Here is what Thomas Hirsch said:
"The new resolutions will not only, but also work from Workbench. The new modes are available by programming the ECS registers @ $DFF1C0 through $DFF1E4. This is what the monitor drivers in DEVS: are for.
External Amiga graphic cards can not run on Workbench directly. They need an RTG layer like CyberGraphX or P96 as they do not have any ECS registers."
And take a look at this! It has to be the best looking vapourware I've ever seen! :D
(http://www.natami.net/gfx/NatAmi16_LX/natami16_lx_5.jpg)
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Here is what Thomas Hirsch said:
"The new resolutions will not only, but also work from Workbench. The new modes are available by programming the ECS registers @ $DFF1C0 through $DFF1E4. This is what the monitor drivers in DEVS: are for.
External Amiga graphic cards can not run on Workbench directly. They need an RTG layer like CyberGraphX or P96 as they do not have any ECS registers."
If that is the case, then:
1) cgx/picasso96 applications won't work
2) no truecolor modes
3) no chunky modes, for example updating single pixel on 256 colour screen requires 8 read-modify-write cycles
Even if you would optimize the blitter and memory accesses processing everything in planar would still be horribly ineffective.
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If that is the case, then:
1) cgx/picasso96 applications won't work
2) no truecolor modes
3) no chunky modes, for example updating single pixel on 256 colour screen requires 8 read-modify-write cycles
Even if you would optimize the blitter and memory accesses processing everything in planar would still be horribly ineffective.
Nothing is stopping a cgx/picasso96 driver from being written that will handle these cases, and it would integrate seamlessly with native modes, sprites, draggable screens and all.
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1) cgx/picasso96 applications won't work
As expected.
2) no truecolor modes
I remember I used to run HAM8 screen for IBrowse back in the days :)
3) no chunky modes, for example updating single pixel on 256 colour screen requires 8 read-modify-write cycles
What software would benefit from chunky modes anyways, apart from quake/doom ports and mac emulators?
Even if you would optimize the blitter and memory accesses processing everything in planar would still be horribly ineffective.
But it would be the fastest thing around for DPaint! :laughing:
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Nothing is stopping a cgx/picasso96 driver from being written that will handle these cases, and it would integrate seamlessly with native modes, sprites, draggable screens and all.
Wanna bet? I see lots of legal stuff standing in the way along with a bunch of nay-sayers :hammer:
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Wanna bet? I see lots of legal stuff standing in the way along with a bunch of nay-sayers :hammer:
Legal problems?
Who owns what nowadays anyway? And who wrote the uaegfx driver for WinUAE?
And yes, I remember the nay-sayers from when MiniMig was announced... :p
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Ok, here's a wild idea. Put a soft-powerpc core in the main FPGA and run AmigaOS 4.1 on it with native chunky screen modes.
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That's been proposed and ultimately discarded for the time being. Most OS 4.1 games are SDL ports that could be recompiled for a fast '060 or the '050 softcore without difficulty under a native port of SDL.
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Legal problems?
Who owns what nowadays anyway? And who wrote the uaegfx driver for WinUAE?
And yes, I remember the nay-sayers from when MiniMig was announced... :p
P96 was bought out by Hyperion Entertainment when they started making AOS 4.0. Cybergraphics is owned by the MorphOS team.
I predict that it will be as Cybergraphics compatible as AROS is, since most of the code that is going into the AfaOS code base comes from AROS anyway.
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If that is the case, then:
1) cgx/picasso96 applications won't work
2) no truecolor modes
3) no chunky modes, for example updating single pixel on 256 colour screen requires 8 read-modify-write cycles
Even if you would optimize the blitter and memory accesses processing everything in planar would still be horribly ineffective.
I respect Piru's opinion and technical knowledge, but I also respect the work Thomas and crew have already completed and their plans for the future and I can only guess that they are comparing apples to oranges. The expectations of one are quite different than the plans of the other.
I know there has been a good deal of criticism against the Natami team for some claims and plans that have been put forward in the past, but not everyone on the Natami forums, or even the dev team knows which direction the project will ultimately go, so I just dimiss some of the more outrageous claims and fanaticism from a few at the Natami website forums.
I like the progress that is being made and still like the idea of what they are trying to accomplish. Only time will tell if I will be able and still want to purchase a Natami board when they are finally released.
Edit: I like the idea of buying a supercharged MiniMig that has faster cpu and aga graphics than any Classic Amiga model ever had. If the AGA chipset emulation also has additional features, other than just being faster at all color depths than the original Amiga models, that will be an extra plus, but not a make or break item that I have to have.
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Natami is all about running and reliving the Amiga experience on NON PC, non emulated enviroment. It's about the excitement of the Amiga trademark fusion of software and hardware capabilites. It's that illusive "it just feels right" feeling of it all, but better, faster stronger...That's the kind of Amiga experience I want to be connected to. A PC, or XBOX running emulation is great but this NAtami is a special thing.
that's exactly why I bought Amiga OS4.1 and a Sam flex :-)..kudos to Natami team..looks great!
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I'm waiting for Natami to change my Amiga 2400 x86 and switch to a real Amiga.
Just think about it... we'll have new expansion cards, startin with 060 then switching to PowerPC cards! Graphics cards et all! NatAMI is the future!
I count on you guys!