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Author Topic: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?  (Read 4145 times)

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Offline Karlos

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« on: November 18, 2012, 11:15:38 PM »
I have to disagree. This is a way old argument.

The principle design paradigms of the Amiga (multiprocessing hardware with dedicated units for sound, graphics etc.) has been fully adopted in the PC world for over 15 years. And it's been steadily improved over the years, with ever faster, cheaper and more modular components. With any old PC, virtually anything you dislike about it can be swapped out and replaced with an alternative that suits you better. Whether it's hardware, applications or the OS.

The problem is, most people's understanding of the "PeeCee" is some generic beige box running Windows.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 12:03:30 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;715583
PCs have evolved over the last thirty years, but they've never lost that fundamental kludge-ugliness, and what they've gained in reliability has mostly been obtained by hammering flat any feature that might once have made them interesting. Iggy is dead-on here.


PC's aren't built to be interesting, hey are built to be useful, ubiquitous and replaceable. System API's allow hardware implementations to vary wildly provided they perform the same function. Nobody wants the old style X won't work with Y or without Z and don't forget to set jumpers A, B and C before rebooting and fiddling with your HIMEM.SYS nonsense. That wasn't interesting, it was simply frustrating.

However, and you are free to disagree, in achieving the goal of becoming the ubiquitous one-size fits all solution for most people's computing needs, a lot of clever ideas have been packed into a system built on an architecture that in any sane universe would have been drowned at birth. And the fact that it all works is very interesting.

Also, you mentioned just a handful of "uninteresting" operating systems. There are literally dozens of esoteric operating systems for PC hardware. MenuetOS was the last one I played with; an esoteric OS for people that want to write everything in assembler. And I didn't have to flatten anything to try it, I just made use of a bit of virtualization.

Don't get me wrong, the Amiga will always be my favourite, but I don't get the need to rant about perceived shortcomings of PC's in 2012. It's like raging about the inadequacies of your fridge or TV set.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 10:09:32 AM »
Quote
Can you give me some examples? Every clever or interesting thing I can think of about PCs got stamped out in standards transitions.

If you can honestly look at a modern PC motherboard and associated components and not see 2 decades worth of accumulated cleverness in the component parts and their interconnections then there's no point in me even trying to point any out. You simply don't, or won't appreciate it. Which is your prerogative.

My first experience of a PC was a typical, cost-reduced 8086 green screen affair. The one I am typing on couldn't be further from it. The *only* thing it has in common is a subset the instruction set the processor uses.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2012, 08:05:04 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;715743
That's not an answer to the question, that's you telling me that I don't  want an answer to the question, and I'll be the decider of my  own motivations, thank you. If I wasn't interested in hearing your view on it, I certainly wouldn't have wasted my time asking.


Your question seemed rhetorical. For your consideration, first I'll submit the GPU. First there was the dumb, often segmented framebuffer. Then there was some fixed 2D functionality in EGA and VGA (that few people ever explored). Then there was the fixed function 3D accelerator. Which became ever more powerful until eventually, multiple texture pipelines just wasn't enough and T&L was added. Then shaders and before you know it, the massively parallel turing-complete high-performance processing cluster that is the modern GPU was born. Virtually all of these represent different eras in graphics processing technology and were the result of numerous innovations over the previous era. And it's still going on. It's just that most people simply don't appreciate what is changing at the machine level behind their APIs. Instead, they see prettier graphics but don't realize the revolutions in hardware that have enabled it.

You can pick any component in your typical PC and see the same development. Many times, there's a complete shift in the way things work in order to overcome some fundamental limitation. In the distant past, people would laugh at the notion of using serial interfaces between system components on a mainboard (with a few esoteric transputer systems excluded). Then, as bus speeds reach a certain level, people realised that shovelling increasingly wide machine words around parallel tracks on a motherboard is both space inefficient and prone to error as the speed goes up. Simply put, the length of individual tracks becomes problematic for signal propagation. Revising everything to use multiple high speed serial links and point-to-point transfer, instead of wide transfers is an extremely clever solution that we would have scoffed at 20 years ago.

To think of all these changes as mere evolution of the same old 8086 architecture (ie, nothing new, just faster) is nothing short of disingenuous. It takes a lot to deliver all that brute force and a lot of changes to keep delivering it.

I'd say the only thing that hasn't really kept up is the software. For example, we now have many-core systems capable of dramatic throughput but lots of applications with poor concurrency support, incapable of realizing their potential. OK, sometimes that's just the way it goes as not everything can be parallelised, but we're still lagging behind in terms of how we go about designing software for such scalability in the first place.
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