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Author Topic: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?  (Read 4033 times)

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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« on: November 18, 2012, 10:04:18 PM »
Sorry, I've used these things for years.
And they STILL suck.

I wanted to post this under a legitimate forum, but I knew I'd get thrown in the sock drawer.

We had an idea, in the 80's, that something better could be built.

We tried (on more then one front - my company did it with only a handful of people) and eventually lost out in the market.
It still hasn't quite happened.

Cause PCs, even developed by brute force, still aren't that great.

WTF?!
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2012, 11:15:38 PM »
I have to disagree. This is a way old argument.

The principle design paradigms of the Amiga (multiprocessing hardware with dedicated units for sound, graphics etc.) has been fully adopted in the PC world for over 15 years. And it's been steadily improved over the years, with ever faster, cheaper and more modular components. With any old PC, virtually anything you dislike about it can be swapped out and replaced with an alternative that suits you better. Whether it's hardware, applications or the OS.

The problem is, most people's understanding of the "PeeCee" is some generic beige box running Windows.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 11:51:24 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;715564
The principle design paradigms of the Amiga (multiprocessing hardware with dedicated units for sound, graphics etc.) has been fully adopted in the PC world for over 15 years. And it's been steadily improved over the years, with ever faster, cheaper and more modular components. With any old PC, virtually anything you dislike about it can be swapped out and replaced with an alternative that suits you better. Whether it's hardware, applications or the OS.
That presupposes the existence of a better PC-compatible alternative, though, and in my experience there usually isn't one. PC hardware used to have some interesting alternatives back in the day (Adlib/Sound Blaster versus Gravis UltraSound versus IBM MFC versus an external MIDI module, different and sometimes quite interestingly quirky early 3D accelerators,) but they've all long since been stamped into conformity with a single standard that's usually defined more around whatever the Windows API already provided than any consideration of what made for a good standard (do you remember when sound cards didn't all use that crappy-ass Roland patch set that newer versions of Windows won't even let you switch out?) GPUs are pretty much the last holdout, and even they now differ pretty much only in specs on the same handful of categories. It's a vast landscape of increasingly-indistinguishable options.

And you can swap out the OS, but there really aren't any good options; there aren't even any interesting options that aren't stuck in perpetual beta. Linux more or less works until you touch anything under the hood, or touch anything that touches anything under the hood, or look at it funny, at which point there's a healthy chance that the entire modern-UNIX house-of-cards will collapse and leave you staring at a command prompt and trying to put things back together using tools from the '70s. Windows used to be crashy as hell and has since gotten better, to the point where it's a damn solid workhorse OS, but it's also gotten exponentially bigger with every version, to the point where you need what would've been considered a high-end PC just six or seven years ago merely to run it these days.

PCs have evolved over the last thirty years, but they've never lost that fundamental kludge-ugliness, and what they've gained in reliability has mostly been obtained by hammering flat any feature that might once have made them interesting. Iggy is dead-on here.
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 11:53:29 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;715564

The problem is, most people's understanding of the "PeeCee" is some generic beige box running Windows.


.... with loads and loads of 'goodies' crapware installed :D
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 11:59:29 PM »
Windows/Linux/Mac still can't do proper screens. Game, set, match.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2012, 12:03:30 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;715583
PCs have evolved over the last thirty years, but they've never lost that fundamental kludge-ugliness, and what they've gained in reliability has mostly been obtained by hammering flat any feature that might once have made them interesting. Iggy is dead-on here.


PC's aren't built to be interesting, hey are built to be useful, ubiquitous and replaceable. System API's allow hardware implementations to vary wildly provided they perform the same function. Nobody wants the old style X won't work with Y or without Z and don't forget to set jumpers A, B and C before rebooting and fiddling with your HIMEM.SYS nonsense. That wasn't interesting, it was simply frustrating.

However, and you are free to disagree, in achieving the goal of becoming the ubiquitous one-size fits all solution for most people's computing needs, a lot of clever ideas have been packed into a system built on an architecture that in any sane universe would have been drowned at birth. And the fact that it all works is very interesting.

Also, you mentioned just a handful of "uninteresting" operating systems. There are literally dozens of esoteric operating systems for PC hardware. MenuetOS was the last one I played with; an esoteric OS for people that want to write everything in assembler. And I didn't have to flatten anything to try it, I just made use of a bit of virtualization.

Don't get me wrong, the Amiga will always be my favourite, but I don't get the need to rant about perceived shortcomings of PC's in 2012. It's like raging about the inadequacies of your fridge or TV set.
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Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2012, 12:07:06 AM »
Quote from: Matt_H;715585
Windows/Linux/Mac still can't do proper screens. Game, set, match.


???

What is a proper screen?
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2012, 03:05:34 AM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;715589
???

What is a proper screen?


Desktop in one resolution, application in another. Non-Amigas still can't do it without reinitializing the whole display.
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2012, 03:21:56 AM »
Quote from: Matt_H;715585
Windows/Linux/Mac still can't do proper screens. Game, set, match.


Windows/Linux/Mac still have no MUI.  Match 2, World Championship, The End.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 03:39:41 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;715588
However, and you are free to disagree, in achieving the goal of becoming the ubiquitous one-size fits all solution for most people's computing needs, a lot of clever ideas have been packed into a system built on an architecture that in any sane universe would have been drowned at birth.
Can you give me some examples? Every clever or interesting thing I can think of about PCs got stamped out in standards transitions.

Quote
And the fact that it all works is very interesting.
No it isn't. A machine being in a state of proper function is a fine thing, but that doesn't make it interesting.

Quote
Also, you mentioned just a handful of "uninteresting" operating systems. There are literally dozens of esoteric operating systems for PC hardware. MenuetOS was the last one I played with; an esoteric OS for people that want to write everything in assembler.
What I said was "there aren't any interesting options that aren't stuck in perpetual beta." Or, more fairly to some of them, "that have enough of a software base to be generally useful." MenuetOS is neat as hell, I agree - it's just that when it comes to stuff you can use for your day-to-day computing needs, people are often stuck with the big, boring players that aren't very good but aren't bad enough to keep them from being the standards.

Quote
Don't get me wrong, the Amiga will always be my favourite, but I don't get the need to rant about perceived shortcomings of PC's in 2012. It's like raging about the inadequacies of your fridge or TV set.
Well, I can't speak for Iggy, but there's a couple reasons this often feels rant-worthy. First and foremost, 'round here, is the group of people who, despite being members of an Amiga forum, and typically professing to like the Amiga, respond to any thread about next-gen Amigoid systems, exercises in pushing the boundaries on classic Amigas, attempts to "switch over" to next-gen or classic Amigas for daily-driver use, hypotheticals about where the Amiga might have gone, or threads about the weather with ritual chanting of "THERE IS ONLY AND SHALL EVER MORE BE ONLY X86, DECLARED THE ONE TRUE ARCHITECTURE BY GOD HIMSELF THROUGH HIS PROPHET DON ESTRIDGE, BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP, O YE IGNORANT HEATHENS!" Often with an added chaser of "and anyway the Amiga was totally crap because it couldn't play Doom unexpanded, I don't know why you people here on an Amiga forum seem to like it so much."

But even aside from that specific annoyance, the whole attitude that "PCs are meant to be identical and boring" is pretty frustrating. It didn't used to be that way; people used to be interested in computers for their own sake, and consequently computers used to be really interesting. Back in the day, there was a veritable menagerie of quirky, interesting little systems to choose from - or you could use a common backplane standard to play mix-and-match in a way that modern PCs don't even begin to approach.

Then the IBM PC came along and triggered a mass extinction event; a few survivors hung behind or thrived in specialty markets for a while, but eventually it was just PCs as far as the eye could see. Even that wasn't so bad, back when PCs still had some interesting features, but that creeping homogeneity has all but completely overtaken the world of personal computing by now. Even Macs are PCs now! Hell, the most diversity we've had in years has been due to the hesitant, not-yet-fruitful dalliance of ARM hardware from the smartphone market with laptop form factors.

Some folks here remember those earlier days with fondness. Some of us weren't around for them, but wish we'd been. In either case, we're maybe not so gung-ho about standards and interoperability that we wouldn't like to see some variety in the market again - and you don't even need to want that to think that the IBM PC-compatible architecture is looking pretty icky after thirty years of progressive kludges. You can talk about how great standards are all you want, and I'm not going to claim you don't have a point, but it's like arguing that dinosaurs were just too big and inefficient and it's their own fault that they didn't survive changing climate conditions, for being too dependent on a predation cycle based around lush, plentiful vegetation - that may be true, but you're missing the point that dinosaurs were hella cool in a way that very few mammals are.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 03:54:44 AM by commodorejohn »
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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2012, 03:56:25 AM »
Wow, you guys like wordy answers.
Stated more simply, Gates and company know how to imitate, assimilate, and absorb. So OS looks better but its one big, bloated, monolithic pig.
And Linux and Mac OSX suffer from the same problem.

And the number of transistors that have been thrown into the hardware is stupid high for perpetually diminishing returns.

And there is an alternative. It was there at the same time Linux started and should have received more consideration.
Micro kernal OS', Risc processors, and open standards that are documented.

We could have been there and we blew it.
Instead I'm being offered more new processors from the calculator processor manufacturing company and software from the vaporware OS guy's company.

Give them enough time and they'll polish the turd, but its still a polished turd.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 09:20:30 AM by Iggy »
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Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 06:16:43 AM »
Quote from: Matt_H;715619
Desktop in one resolution, application in another. Non-Amigas still can't do it without reinitializing the whole display.


Does this really matter?  I can't think of any programs I use on a daily basis that don't pull my desktop resolution.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 10:09:32 AM »
Quote
Can you give me some examples? Every clever or interesting thing I can think of about PCs got stamped out in standards transitions.

If you can honestly look at a modern PC motherboard and associated components and not see 2 decades worth of accumulated cleverness in the component parts and their interconnections then there's no point in me even trying to point any out. You simply don't, or won't appreciate it. Which is your prerogative.

My first experience of a PC was a typical, cost-reduced 8086 green screen affair. The one I am typing on couldn't be further from it. The *only* thing it has in common is a subset the instruction set the processor uses.
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Offline gertsy

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 12:43:41 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;715645
Does this really matter?  I can't think of any programs I use on a daily basis that don't pull my desktop resolution.


x86/x64 based PCs can display to multiple monitors at their optimum or differing resolutions.  It's a bit of a moot point in 2012 with full Hi Def digital displays. The operating system supports what is needed.  Screens were cool in the 80's but they were really a feature gimic rather than anything productive or useful.  IMO.

One of my hates however is the term "PC".  As per the thread title. It used to be IBM PC and then got shortened to PC.  Every computer I owned in the 80s and early 90s had the word Personal Computer written on it.  None of them being IBM related. I guess PC was a term coined by Mac zealots who figured everything non-Mac was PC.  Does that make Macs Impersonal PCs? :)
Arrh they have a lot to be blamed for.

@Karlos don't forget the interupts even though they're APIC? now the origins are the same.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 12:48:53 PM by gertsy »
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: Could you PC loving Aholes go home?
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 02:07:05 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;715664
If you can honestly look at a modern PC motherboard and associated components and not see 2 decades worth of accumulated cleverness in the component parts and their interconnections then there's no point in me even trying to point any out. You simply don't, or won't appreciate it. Which is your prerogative.

My first experience of a PC was a typical, cost-reduced 8086 green screen affair. The one I am typing on couldn't be further from it. The *only* thing it has in common is a subset the instruction set the processor uses.

Wow, you had a "real" PC.
My first experience was soldering together a 6800 based system.
Man the circuit boards were crude.
Even unpopulated, a current circuit board is a complex thing of beauty with about 90% of its secrets hidden in its inner layers.
That's why it always cracks me up when someone discusses "making boards".
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"