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Author Topic: cyberstormppc.rom ?  (Read 11660 times)

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Offline trekiej

Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2015, 08:48:49 PM »
Does some one need to make a virtual device as a replacement?
I am shooting in to the wind. :(
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Offline cgutjahr

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2015, 08:54:59 PM »
Quote from: Bugala;786784
This is one of the tricky cases legally

No, not at all. If Ralph Schmidt is right (about him being the only owner of the rights), your copy isn't legal - period.

Quote

but basically i would imagine I basically have now a legal copy of the ROM image, and if Frank decides

Technically, he can't ask you for damage, but he can ask you to delete it.

Which he won't obviously.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2015, 09:07:52 PM »
sick, how much people try to twist this around to make it appear legal while it apparently isnt. whats the problem all the sudden? why dont you just honestly pirate it as all the time before?
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2015, 11:04:47 PM »
@cgutjahr

Actually it is not that clear case.

To take example of car theft.

If you buy a car from your local cars dealer, and later point it is found out that the car you bought was actually stolen. If there was no reasonable reason for you to doubt it, you get to keep the car you bought (at least in most countries), and dispute is between the original owner and the theft, not between you and the original owner.

Similarly another case could be that for example GOG.com finds out that their Sierra games arent actually legally licensed. That the real owner suddenly appears and tells them that the deal they have about those games, was made with wrong company.

GOG would have to stop selling those sierra games unless they make a new deal with the real owner, but people who bought those games before, would (probably) still be having legal copies of it, despite that they were illegal in the first place, as there was no reason to doubt that GOG was selling real, legal copies of those games.

However, in this case because I was customer that became aware of the situation (although after already having bought it), and it wasnt after many a year, but quite instantly noticed, it is easy to reverse the situation (delete file) etc.

And because I couldnt easily enough find any contact info for Ralph Schmidt to ask him permission to keep that PPC ROM file, i deleted it.
 

Offline jj

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2015, 12:16:19 AM »
Quote from: Bugala;786799
@cgutjahr

Actually it is not that clear case.

To take example of car theft.

If you buy a car from your local cars dealer, and later point it is found out that the car you bought was actually stolen. If there was no reasonable reason for you to doubt it, you get to keep the car you bought (at least in most countries), and dispute is between the original owner and the theft, not between you and the original owner.

Similarly another case could be that for example GOG.com finds out that their Sierra games arent actually legally licensed. That the real owner suddenly appears and tells them that the deal they have about those games, was made with wrong company.

GOG would have to stop selling those sierra games unless they make a new deal with the real owner, but people who bought those games before, would (probably) still be having legal copies of it, despite that they were illegal in the first place, as there was no reason to doubt that GOG was selling real, legal copies of those games.

However, in this case because I was customer that became aware of the situation (although after already having bought it), and it wasnt after many a year, but quite instantly noticed, it is easy to reverse the situation (delete file) etc.

And because I couldnt easily enough find any contact info for Ralph Schmidt to ask him permission to keep that PPC ROM file, i deleted it.


Not sure this is true.  Is the U.k. At least if you bought a car in good faith that turned out to be stolen. The car would be returned to the proper owners and you would potentially be out of pocket unless you can get the money back from the dealer.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2015, 02:09:48 AM »
Quote from: Bugala;786799
@cgutjahr

Actually it is not that clear case.

To take example of car theft.

If you buy a car from your local cars dealer, and later point it is found out that the car you bought was actually stolen. If there was no reasonable reason for you to doubt it, you get to keep the car you bought (at least in most countries), and dispute is between the original owner and the theft, not between you and the original owner.

Similarly another case could be that for example GOG.com finds out that their Sierra games arent actually legally licensed. That the real owner suddenly appears and tells them that the deal they have about those games, was made with wrong company.

GOG would have to stop selling those sierra games unless they make a new deal with the real owner, but people who bought those games before, would (probably) still be having legal copies of it, despite that they were illegal in the first place, as there was no reason to doubt that GOG was selling real, legal copies of those games.

However, in this case because I was customer that became aware of the situation (although after already having bought it), and it wasnt after many a year, but quite instantly noticed, it is easy to reverse the situation (delete file) etc.

And because I couldnt easily enough find any contact info for Ralph Schmidt to ask him permission to keep that PPC ROM file, i deleted it.


you can keep your rom image. you just cant claim its legal. if you have paid for it and are not comfortable with the outcome, delete it and demand your money back. why do you want to argue in the open, that your copy is legal even if acquired from an apparently illegal source? i dont understand your concerns.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2015, 08:43:46 AM »
@wawrzon

Most of time when i argue about legal matters, it is because i am interested in legal matters and find it fun. Not necessarily because the issue might have something to do with me directly (like this one had). Hence my main point wasnt to argue that my copy is (well, was) legal, but simply argue about legal matter.

I also find it beneficial for exercise to argue/think of these matters. As example this time since the matter happened to have something directly to do with me.

My first thought was the comparison with car theft, and i was thinking my copy was legal. Then i started thinking about the spirit behind these laws, of why were they put there in the first place etc. and i came to conclusion that Ralph Schmidt should have right to decide in this case wether i can keep it or not (after which i deleted it, since i couldnt contact him, and i decided that basically he had said no by forbidding the selling). At this point I was however still thinking that would this be in court, judge would rule in my favor of keeping the ROM. Although I doubt no sane mind would go to court for a case like this.

But after giving even more consideration, i actually came to conclusion that even Judge would rule for not letting me keep the ROM file without Ralphs permission.

For thing is, the principle behind (to my understand in most countries, but i could be wrong) getting to keep the stolen car, the idea is that people need to be able to trust official car dealer companies. That we cant demand regular people to find out if their newly bought car from car dealer shop is stolen, if all the papers etc. seem okay.

If there would happen lots of these cases, then people would be afraid of buying cars anymore in the end.

Naturally if stolen item is something unique. Say you in good faith thought you bought copy of Mona Lisa, and it appears it is actually the real one. You wouldnt get to keep it, but it would be returned to real owner.

Personally I think each car theft should be treated as their own case. For example, lets say you have a car you use for work. It gets stolen, you cant afford new one, and hence it becomes impossible for you to work. Suppose the legal buyer later on is then a millionaire who just buys that car to sit in his endless car garage. In my opinion, you should get the car back, and then millionaire would have the claim for money from the thief (or the seller).

Similarly, if it was stolen from same millionaire, and buyer is someone who used every last penny of his to buy it to be able to use it for his work. Once again, millionaire can afford it, that other guys livelihood depends on it. Hence I once again would think it is better that dispute is put between millionaire and theft, instead of the poor chap.

But another example of this principle, lets take example of you are selling Illegal copy of Madonnas newest Cd release.

You have sold it directly to 10 000 people in shops and markets. Then you are sued about it and have to withdraw it from market.

It is not realistic to think that you can contact all those 10 000 people who have already bought that CD from various sources. For example, someone bought it from shop with cash. There is no way to trace that one. Hence to my understanding law basically lets people keep those cds instead of forcing them to destroy it.

However, not we come to this ROM file case. This is different from that principle. Since by default, those who bought the ROM file, are so said actively using indiego, hence it is possible to inform them that ROM files are not legal after all, since they are all tracable through their user accounts.

Hence I would imagine that even a judges ruling would be that each one who bought rom files would need to delete them, as it is reasonably possible to arrange and there is no big harm for anyone.

And just to point out. That I wrote this long with all these examples only because I found it fun to write about legal matters. And also, that I am no lawyer, and this is one of the tricky cases in law, hence I am not sure it really would go like this, just to my understanding this is about the principle how it generally goes and basis for it, but it varies from country to country. Especially since, as i already mentioned, its a tricky case.
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2015, 02:36:51 PM »
I don't understand what MorphOS devs have against emulation. MorphOS pup edition has a special clause that prevents it from being used with emulators. And now these ppc Roms that won't be released to prevent use with emulators.

What's the point?
 

Offline psxphill

Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2015, 08:42:24 PM »
Quote from: Bugala;786825
And just to point out. That I wrote this long with all these examples only because I found it fun to write about legal matters. And also, that I am no lawyer, and this is one of the tricky cases in law, hence I am not sure it really would go like this, just to my understanding this is about the principle how it generally goes and basis for it, but it varies from country to country. Especially since, as i already mentioned, its a tricky case.

It's a simple case. The person you bought it from had no right to sell it, therefore you didn't get anything for your money and you should demand a refund.

If you buy a car that was stolen and it gets identified then the original owner (or the insurance company who paid out on the claim) will recover the car from you. The first you'll know is that someone will knock on your door to take your car there and then. If you go to court then the judge won't care whether you need the car, because it's someone else's property. All you can do is sue the person who sold it to you, if it was a legitimate car dealer then you will know where to find them and they should have enough money to pay you. If they are dodgy then they will either have disappeared or will declare themselves insolvent when you ask for your refund. Caveat emptor and all that.

I don't believe there are any countries where the law is written in the way you think. However there are countries where laws don't get applied.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 08:44:42 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline danbeaver

Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2015, 08:43:00 PM »
It is not that "they won't be released for use with emulators," it is a matter of intellectual property, and MorphOS emulates a 68k Amiga on a PPC Mac, so it is likely $$ with them as they may lose control of their "licenced to the hardware" grip.
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2015, 07:47:15 AM »
I did a bit of a check, and seems I am mostly wrong about the law issue. It seems I had somewhere read example of an exception of the law and thought it was general.

It appears that in Finnish law there are two different titles for selling goods you dont own. One is the traditional stealing, and another one is that someone for example loaned you something and you sold it.

If you bought something that the guy had loaned, and there was no reason for you to know that seller didnt actually own it. Then you, the buyer, are for most part protected. Original owner still has right to get his thing back, but he must pay for you, the buyer, the price you paid for the seller. Then the original owner has right to ask that money back from the seller. By otherwords, Buyer in this case has no risk, he either gets to keep the goods, or gets the money back he paid. Original owner on the other hand has a risk of losing always. He always has a risk of not getting money back from the thief if thief if broke.

Although it most times seems to be elsewhere too that stolen car is returned to owner, here is one example of exception: http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162239

However, have to remember that that is just a forum, and who knows if those really know what they are talking about even.
 

Offline EvilGuy

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2015, 08:40:45 AM »
Quote from: warpdesign;786840
I don't understand what MorphOS devs have against emulation. MorphOS pup edition has a special clause that prevents it from being used with emulators. And now these ppc Roms that won't be released to prevent use with emulators.

What's the point?


The MorphOS devs were the ones who originally got screwed over royally by H&P and their WarpOS package. I'm not surprised they're still holding a grudge.
 

Offline yssing

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2015, 09:07:13 AM »
Well I am surprised, that any one can hold a grudge for 15 years or more.
 

Offline danbeaver

Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2015, 10:58:48 AM »
Quote from: EvilGuy;786876
The MorphOS devs were the ones who originally got screwed over royally by H&P and their WarpOS package. I'm not surprised they're still holding a grudge.

I am sorry, but are you saying that the MorphOS developers are holding a grudge against Haage & Partners over WarpOS and this is why they do not let their software (which emulates a 68000 emulating an Amiga) be emulated itself on other hardware, and subsequently that the copyright laws covering the distribution of the CyberstormPPC ROM are, in effect, wrong or invalid?  Or is there some other reason that MorphOS comes into place in a thread discussing the copyrighted CyberstormPPC ROM's that are in effect owned by the actual people with a physically present CyberstormPPC product?  Or is the intellectual property of MorphOS not the same as the intellectual property of anyone else?  Or does a deal going "bad" mean that in the years insuing said "screwed over royally" action mean anything to anyone's intellectual property rights?

You see, I am confused... Could you explain?
 

Offline Bugala

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2015, 12:32:59 PM »
To answer some part of your questions, supposing i understood them right. Now I havent really digged into this, so this is somewhat a guess what i am saying next.

But if i understood right, Claim would go about following:

DCE bought phase 5:s rights for all the boards. Hence DCE is probably allowed to make more physical PPC boards, which i guess is unlikely they will do anymore due to it probably not making financial sense anymore.

However, part of those PPC boards, is the PPC ROM. And this PPC ROM however wasnt owned by phase5, but Phase5 only had license to use that PPC ROM on their physical boards. This right might, or might not have been moved to DCE.

The one they licensed that PPC ROM from, was Ralph Schmidt, and Schmidt is heavily involved with MorphOS, hence the thought of "moprhOS team" although in reality we are talking only of one individual. As example, If i would refuse something, it wouldnt be "Amiga users refuse", but just me.

So to correct some thought that you might have thought, supposing i read your message right.

MorphOS or MorphOS team itself doesnt have anything to do with preventing this PPC ROM being licensed. Only one individual who happens to be part of MorphOS team does.

Wether hes decision is based upon reason (fear of decreased sales of MorphOS and increase of competitor AOS4), or grudge from past, at least i havent seen stated.

In addition, if you own physical PPC board, and you take ROM image from it. Then as far as i have understood, that image should be legal, and right now seems to be only legal way to get that PPC ROM image to run AOS4 under emulation on your PC.
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: cyberstormppc.rom ?
« Reply #44 from previous page: March 29, 2015, 12:56:00 PM »
Quote
Well I am surprised, that any one can hold a grudge for 15 years or more.
+1