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AuthorTopic: Amiga OS 3.2 released  (Read 14020 times)

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Offline kolla

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2021, 01:51:33 AM »
@kolla:

They are two different things: one is the menu equivalent of a checkbox, and the other is the menu equivalent of a radio button.  So it makes sense to distinguish them

No, it doesn't make much sense, noone ever struggled to distinguish these for more than 30 years - hopefully people can still READ!

Quote
this is done not just by Windows but by OS4.

Unimpressive list when you say "most operating systems".

Quote
There are plenty of bad interface designs in MacOS and no reason to blindly make the same mistakes.

Right, much better to blindly follow the mistakes done in Windows - the list is growing for every release.

And I ask again - is the max-window-size limitation still there in Intiution.library v47? You know, the limitation only found on Windows? Not even OS4 has this limitation...

Quote
This is for Amigas not Macs.

You mean this is for Windows users who gets confused by the Amiga paradigm, and who rather see Amiga change into something more Windows-like? So you end up doing the same mistakes as just about every "linux desktop", instead of having a distinct UX for this platform, you end up with a sorry excuse for a "look-alike" that is neither one or the other. What's next - ctrl+c/v as shortcut for "copy" and "paste"?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 01:53:01 AM by kolla »
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A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
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Offline boemann

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2021, 08:27:14 AM »
@kolla:

They are two different things: one is the menu equivalent of a checkbox, and the other is the menu equivalent of a radio button.  So it makes sense to distinguish them

No, it doesn't make much sense, noone ever struggled to distinguish these for more than 30 years - hopefully people can still READ!

Quote
this is done not just by Windows but by OS4.

Unimpressive list when you say "most operating systems".

Quote
There are plenty of bad interface designs in MacOS and no reason to blindly make the same mistakes.

Right, much better to blindly follow the mistakes done in Windows - the list is growing for every release.

And I ask again - is the max-window-size limitation still there in Intiution.library v47? You know, the limitation only found on Windows? Not even OS4 has this limitation...

Quote
This is for Amigas not Macs.

You mean this is for Windows users who gets confused by the Amiga paradigm, and who rather see Amiga change into something more Windows-like? So you end up doing the same mistakes as just about every "linux desktop", instead of having a distinct UX for this platform, you end up with a sorry excuse for a "look-alike" that is neither one or the other. What's next - ctrl+c/v as shortcut for "copy" and "paste"?

You do know that Commodore's idea (93) to use checkmarks and bullets in the menu like that predates Windows 95 - so this is actually an original Amiga concept.

As for windows larger than screen I can only take it that you want to break every program out there that assumes this can happen. Like console and probably a lot of other programs. So while in you infinite wisdom you may think it should just be done, there are actually well thought out reasons why it would be a really bad idea. And in practice not that many people will even find it useful anyway.

Offline bubbob42

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2021, 11:00:35 AM »
No, it doesn't make much sense, noone ever struggled to distinguish these for more than 30 years - hopefully people can still READ!

No, most people don't read manuals. Most developers had to learn this the hard way. :D

Things have progressed since 1985 - GUIs are supposed to be self-explaining, albeit this presents an ongoing and sometimes impossible challenge, given the technical restrictions. Radio buttons are a well established paradigm for mutual-exclusive choices in AmigaOS since 1990, so it makes sense to extend it to menus as well. The rest has been said.

C'mon, you must have detected more serious flaws. Even we did.

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2021, 04:27:22 PM »
Shouldn't be too hard to patch Intuition menus from #mximage back to #menucheck, and call this the
Kolla-patch. :P

Maybe MagicMenu is doin it already, who knows.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 04:29:20 PM by TribbleSmasher »
 

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2021, 11:46:15 PM »
Quote
AmigaOS 3.2 Updated FAQ for all Classic Amigas available for download

CUSTOMERS ARE URGED TO RETRIEVE AMIGAOS 3.2 SERIAL NUMBER FROM SHRINK WRAP (PLASTIC FOIL) PRESENT AROUND THE AMIGAOS 3.2 CD-ROM.

As a service to our registered customers, the updated AmigaOS 3.2 FAQ covering all Classic Amigas (including Amiga CD 32 and Amiga CDTV) is available for registered customers in the download section of our website.

Please visit our website regularly to stay up to date about the release of future bonus content for AmigaOS 3.2 available to registered users of AmigaOS 3.2.

If you do not own a copy yet of the AmigaOS 3.2 CD-ROM, please contact your local dealer to order your copy!

...
The Hyperion Management Team
https://www.hyperion-entertainment.com/index.php/news
Quote
Native Developer Kit for AmigaOS 3.2 (NDK 3.2 Release 2) available for immediate download
Brussels, June 4, 2021

Hyperion Entertainment is pleased to present a new updated Native Developer Kit for AmigaOS 3.2.

This NDK contains everything developers need to take advantage of all the new AmigaOS 3.2 features.

AmigaOS NDK 3.2 R2 is available for free from our download area for any interested party.

We thank all of you who have rushed Amiga dealers worldwide to get their hands on a copy of AmigaOS 3.2.

 

https://www.hyperion-entertainment.com/index.php/downloads?view=download&layout=form&file=122
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 02:16:13 PM by TribbleSmasher »
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2021, 10:44:56 AM »
Quote
AmigaOS 3.2 Updated FAQ for all Classic Amigas available for download

CUSTOMERS ARE URGED TO RETRIEVE AMIGAOS 3.2 SERIAL NUMBER FROM SHRINK WRAP (PLASTIC FOIL) PRESENT AROUND THE AMIGAOS 3.2 CD-ROM.

As a service to our registered customers, the updated AmigaOS 3.2 FAQ covering all Classic Amigas (including Amiga CD 32 and Amiga CDTV) is available for registered customers in the download section of our website.

Please visit our website regularly to stay up to date about the release of future bonus content for AmigaOS 3.2 available to registered users of AmigaOS 3.2.

If you do not own a copy yet of the AmigaOS 3.2 CD-ROM, please contact your local dealer to order your copy!

...
The Hyperion Management Team
https://www.hyperion-entertainment.com/index.php/news

I registered my serial number and there is no AmigaOS 3.2 FAQ in the downloads area.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2021, 02:06:00 PM »

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2021, 07:20:02 PM »
I made an AmigaGuide from the developers' releasenotes which were updated with the 3.2NDK, attached below, the file uncompressed at about 1MB in size.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 07:55:22 PM by TribbleSmasher »
 

Offline gertsy

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2021, 08:31:37 AM »
Quote
....What's next - ctrl+c/v as shortcut for "copy" and "paste"?

Brilliant!
 

Offline nicholas

“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline kolla

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2021, 03:04:10 PM »

You do know that Commodore's idea (93) to use checkmarks and bullets in the menu like that predates Windows 95 - so this is actually an original Amiga concept.
Who said anything about Windows 95? Anyways OS 3.1 was released post 1993 without "radio buttons" in the menus.

(and personally I never saw the point of radio buttons, we have cycle menus (and cycle to menu) for that)

Quote
As for windows larger than screen I can only take it that you want to break every program out there that assumes this can happen. Like console and probably a lot of other programs. So while in you infinite wisdom you may think it should just be done, there are actually well thought out reasons why it would be a really bad idea. And in practice not that many people will even find it useful anyway.

I suppose that is why it is working just fine in OS4?

Seriously - when I first complained about this, Thomas said it was due to the possibility to somehow "move" windows into a position where no gadgets would be available to move it back or resize - there was ZERO explaination to how this could possibly happen, but arguing against dogma is pointless. When pointing out that OS4 manages just fine and resize windows larger than screen without any trouble, the "clarification" was that OS4 has the option to resize windows from all directions - well, now OS3 has the same, and yet here we are. And now there is a new excuse "break every program out there" - excuse me, but wtf what? Why don't those programs break on OS4 then?
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline boemann

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2021, 04:42:07 PM »

You do know that Commodore's idea (93) to use checkmarks and bullets in the menu like that predates Windows 95 - so this is actually an original Amiga concept.
Who said anything about Windows 95? Anyways OS 3.1 was released post 1993 without "radio buttons" in the menus.

(and personally I never saw the point of radio buttons, we have cycle menus (and cycle to menu) for that)

Quote
As for windows larger than screen I can only take it that you want to break every program out there that assumes this can happen. Like console and probably a lot of other programs. So while in you infinite wisdom you may think it should just be done, there are actually well thought out reasons why it would be a really bad idea. And in practice not that many people will even find it useful anyway.

I suppose that is why it is working just fine in OS4?

Seriously - when I first complained about this, Thomas said it was due to the possibility to somehow "move" windows into a position where no gadgets would be available to move it back or resize - there was ZERO explaination to how this could possibly happen, but arguing against dogma is pointless. When pointing out that OS4 manages just fine and resize windows larger than screen without any trouble, the "clarification" was that OS4 has the option to resize windows from all directions - well, now OS3 has the same, and yet here we are. And now there is a new excuse "break every program out there" - excuse me, but wtf what? Why don't those programs break on OS4 then?

Well 3.1 was a rushed job in the dying days of Commodore. So they didn't have time to do much of anything. But read the devcon notes from 93 and you will see the idea clearly described. I mentioned win95 as that is the first windows version that has this, so commodore clearly was first.

As for windows larger than screen I too didn't understand that reason about moving into a position where gadget would be unreachable, and resizable from all edges doesn't make a difference as i see it. But the reason that programs might break is certainly true for console, which allocates a buffer based on the screen assuming this is the largest buffer it hast to be prepared for. This can obviously be changed , but if console assumes this, then other programs may expect it too. Programs written for os4 are probably expected to be prepared for this - i don't know - i just know console will fail.

Now we have introduced some legacy compatibility options in 3.2 and limiting window size to screen could certainly be made a new compatibility option so in general windows could be made larger. Then we would "only" have to change intuition to handle this. The point is however that it is not a small thing, and none of us see any real value in it. I understand you do, but I have never seen any user using this on windows, so why would they on the amiga. It would just be a waste of time implementing and testing it. I would much rather spend our time on something that brings more value to users.

Offline kolla

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2021, 05:30:24 PM »
The use case is quite obvious - you mention console, sometimes output (and for that matter, input) is longer than console window is wide - especially when workbench screen is 640 pixels wide, and that in particular is when I - ad hoc - wish to make the console window larger than screen. In general I don’t see the point in moving windows off screen if it’s not possible to make windows larger than screen.

So when do one wish for wider consoles?
When dealing with long filenames and file comments for example.

As for radio buttons - so Windows 95 was first version of Windows with what… “radio buttons” in the menus? And Win 3.x and earlier used what… checkmarks?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 05:33:16 PM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2021, 05:32:48 PM »
So make the screen wider with Autoscroll enabled?

If only the window of the console is wider and offscreen, you couldn't read the text anyhow. What's the point in it?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 05:34:27 PM by TribbleSmasher »
 

Offline kolla

Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2021, 05:35:28 PM »
So make the screen wider with Autoscroll enabled?

Cannot be done without closing and reopening Workbench screen - the point here is that this is a need that pops up and the limitation is super annoying.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS