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AuthorTopic: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1  (Read 13537 times)

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Offline Aegis

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2016, 01:31:06 PM »
I guess the main reason I'm underwhelmed here is that AmigaOS 4.x finally has an opportunity to mature into a standard open-source platform and it's not Nemo, Cyrus or Tabor - it's UAE.

Now I get that users heavily invested in PPC hardware probably don't want to hear/consider that but WinUAE's running AmigaOS really well in the latest betas (it was already usable and it's just had a 30% speedup).

UAE's endlessly extensible if the will is there to work with Toni and the rest of the UAE devs - there's already support for 512MB of video RAM via uaegfx and there's potential to add gigs of RAM if Hyperion could be persuaded to release a kernal that supports Zorro III RAM (they've already written one).

There's also no reason that something like Wazp3D couldn't be implemented for hardware 3D support on AmigaOS too. Work is needed on speeding up Q-Emu (particularly the soft-float stuff) that Toni's unable to do - but the Amiga community could be doing it - either directly or sponsoring it but whilst Toni and Frode and all the others are quietly working away performing minor miracles, money and time is being poured into porting AmigaOS to yet more one-off platforms and yet-more software targetted at a small subset of a small user-base.

Post-Commodore the community's always been running off in different directions pursuing similar but not shared goals - Nova to me is just another example of that.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 01:38:20 PM by Aegis »
Catapultem habeo. Nisi pecuniam amnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2016, 01:40:17 PM »
Quote from: Acill;806233
The argument I think a lot of people have is the closed nature of it, and that no attempts at least publicly were made to bring it to MorphOS or AROS. I clearly remember talk of not wanting to be split between red and blue at Amiwest. This still seems like a one sided race to me.

Hopefully I am proven wrong, I have interest in all sides and own hardware that supports all platforms, both NG and classic.


i dont think aros needs it. as mentioned before warp3d has almost never been used directly on the platforms it was available for including genuine amiga. there alsways been soem sort of opengl wrapper in between, storm mesa, minigl, tinygl..

morphos had some sort of warp3d reimplementation or wrapper for some time, the name of goa or something like that, which has been depreciated in the meantime afair. i think today they have a native kind of opengl library same as aros even if possibly not as feature complete, but maybe more optimized.

so in short, im not sure its aros which uses gallium/mesa7 or morphos who need to catch up now, but its still os4 trying to catch up with others. so far we only see some basic demos, so its hard to tell how this will practically impact on application level.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2016, 01:44:52 PM »
Quote from: Aegis;806234
I guess the main reason I'm underwhelmed here is that AmigaOS 4.x finally has an opportunity to mature into a standard open-source platform and it's not Nemo, Cyrus or Tabor - it's UAE.


im sorry you have invested your bets with something that was obviously not going along your expectations. os4 is neither going to be open source nor it is going to support uae. it has been told over and over. im not sure how have you managed to skip past these clear statements till today, to grow upset just now.
 

Offline gregthecanuck

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2016, 01:44:59 PM »
Quote from: Bennymee;806232
Well, if one could find a *working* PCI->PCI Express converter you could use newer cards on most Amiga with PCI slots or PCI boards...


Looks like Startech makes such a device. Anybody tried this?

https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Slot-Extension/PCI-to-PCI-Express-Adapter-Card~PCI1PEX1
 

Offline Aegis

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2016, 01:52:52 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;806236
im sorry you have invested your bets with something that was obviously not going along your expectations. os4 is neither going to be open source nor it is going to support uae. it has been told over and over. im not sure how have you managed to skip past these clear statements till today, to grow upset just now.

UAE is open-source - I wasn't talking about AmigaOS - if you want to extend the underlying hardware capabilities you can - anyone can.

And regarding my expectations, barring an unlikely shift to ARM/x86 eventually the only way to run AmigaOS will be via emulation - surely you understand that?

Hyperion will support whatever makes them money - if they sell more copies of OS4.1 Classic then they'll support Classic - they'd be suicidal not to.
Catapultem habeo. Nisi pecuniam amnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.
 

Offline itix

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2016, 02:09:15 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;806235
i dont think aros needs it. as mentioned before warp3d has almost never been used directly on the platforms it was available for including genuine amiga. there alsways been soem sort of opengl wrapper in between, storm mesa, minigl, tinygl..

morphos had some sort of warp3d reimplementation or wrapper for some time, the name of goa or something like that, which has been depreciated in the meantime afair. i think today they have a native kind of opengl library same as aros even if possibly not as feature complete, but maybe more optimized.

so in short, im not sure its aros which uses gallium/mesa7 or morphos who need to catch up now, but its still os4 trying to catch up with others. so far we only see some basic demos, so its hard to tell how this will practically impact on application level.

Yeah, Warp3D itself doesnt mean much to AROS and MorphOS. At this age using Amiga native 3D API doesnt pay off anymore because all major 3D software is coming from other platforms. Warp3D is more or less driver API these days and these things are tied to the underlying operating system. Warp3D Nova is a foundation stone for coming OpenGL ES 2 wrapper.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 02:12:09 PM by itix »
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline BSzili

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2016, 02:16:53 PM »
Quote from: gregthecanuck;806237
Looks like Startech makes such a device. Anybody tried this?

https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Slot-Extension/PCI-to-PCI-Express-Adapter-Card~PCI1PEX1
I've never seen a PCI-E 1x graphics card.
I see the jimmies have been rustled.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2016, 02:17:44 PM »
Quote from: Aegis;806238
UAE is open-source - I wasn't talking about AmigaOS - if you want to extend the underlying hardware capabilities you can - anyone can.

And regarding my expectations, barring an unlikely shift to ARM/x86 eventually the only way to run AmigaOS will be via emulation - surely you understand that?

Hyperion will support whatever makes them money - if they sell more copies of OS4.1 Classic then they'll support Classic - they'd be suicidal not to.


the question is what one needs os4 for, especially under uae, except as a gimmick. afair there is no native software for it worth mention, that wouldnt be a port from the host or comparable platform. and beyond that we already know that so called os4.1fe "classic" sales (mostly for uae, since working ppc accels are rather few out there) already exceeded the sales for real os4 hardware, probably by magnitudes. and what are the notable results? besides, we also know, that when approached by vampire/apollo team for licenses hyperion demanded rather unrealistic conditions, and refused any development support. so if it doesnt indicate anything, i dont know what does, however you are free to draw your own conclusions, of course.
 

Offline eliyahu

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2016, 02:24:31 PM »
@thread

guys, the hyperion/UAE discussion is off-topic. please move it to another thread (although we've talked about it over and over...).

-- eliyahu
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here."
 

Offline Aegis

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2016, 02:42:53 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;806242
the question is what one needs os4 for, especially under uae, except as a gimmick. afair there is no native software for it worth mention, that wouldnt be a port from the host or comparable platform.


Well, none of us 'need' OS4 - there's better supported alternatives out there for those that need to run modern applications (I make my living using modo, LightWave, DaVinci Resolve etc.)

But OS4 fills a nice, nostalgic niche for those of us the love the Amiga and out of all the NG platforms, OS4 feels the most like 'home' to me. I'm running it under emulation on my i7 PC purely for the fun of it and would seriously consider using it on a laptop dedicated to email/browsing/games (using in under Linux Mint on my i3 laptop atm).

There's such a huge schism between the platforms AOS is available for now though that how do you develop for that? Many applications/games will run great in 128MB of RAM - I know, I've tried tons of them - but there's also a number that won't.

I'd like to see a middle-ground that's ubiquitous enough that it can be used as a modern baseline and the A-Eon products aren't that - Tabor has (had?) the potential to be but until AmigaOS debuts on it (and we see what the final cost is) we just won't know (my opinion is that developing PPC hardware that offers a comparable price/performance ratio to commodity PCs running WinUAE is and will always be unachievable).

UAE on the other hand would make an excellent baseline if it was better supported by Hyperion and the Amiga community in bringing it up to spec (RAM, faster FPU, hardware 2D/3D) - and the cost of entry is peanuts for an OS 4.1 license if you've already got a reasonably-specced PC. It could be the perfect development platform and entry point for those interested in AmigaOS (really, it already is).

Quote from: wawrzon;806242
and beyond that we already know that so called os4.1fe "classic" sales (mostly for uae, since working ppc accels are rather few out there) already exceeded the sales for real os4 hardware, probably by magnitudes. and what are the notable results? besides, we also know, that when approached by vampire/apollo team for licenses hyperion demanded rather unrealistic conditions, and refused any development support. so if it doesnt indicate anything, i dont know what does, however you are free to draw your own conclusions, of course.


The real litmus test will be what happens after the Cyrus and Tabor ports are done - even if Hyperion wanted to support emulation (and I see their distribution of the Classic ISO via Cloanto to be a sign of interest) they're too busy with that right now. Perhaps you're right - we'll see.

Anyway - I said my bit - I don't want to derail this thread any more than I already have.
Catapultem habeo. Nisi pecuniam amnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2016, 04:03:20 PM »
@Aegis

Only a short comment... Toni is "not amused" because never got any support from Hyperion how you can read on eab, they have even the fix to support ram ready but are not willing to give it to paying customers. If such behavior is wise can everybody decide for himself.

@topic

gratulation for getting 3D support. There is still the problem now to get adapted software for it, also not everyone owns supported graphic cards so the number of potential customers now is rather limited. I assume that the main targets for a-eon (next to existing X1000 owners) are potential future X5000/Tabor owners and they want to offer 3D support despite no MESA/Gallium.
 

Offline Niding

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2016, 04:45:45 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;806246
@Aegis

Only a short comment... Toni is "not amused" because never got any support from Hyperion how you can read on eab, they have even the fix to support ram ready but are not willing to give it to paying customers. If such behavior is wise can everybody decide for himself.


Personally I never expected the restrictions to be lifted when I purchased AOS 4 FE.
Noone should feel cheated with the limitations when using it on WinUAE.
Customers that purchased it should have known it was for PPC hardware, not emulation.
The restictions was very clear upon release.

That said, it would probarly be GOOD for AOS that it supported UAE usage to its fullest, including a WinUAE installer/Amiga Forever style installer, like with AmiKit (with adjustable harddisk allocation upon installation).
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2016, 04:51:43 PM »
Quote from: Niding;806247
Personally I never expected the restrictions to be lifted when I purchased AOS 4 FE.
Noone should feel cheated with the limitations when using it on WinUAE.
Customers that purchased it should have known it was for PPC hardware, not emulation.
The restictions was very clear upon release.

That said, it would probarly be GOOD for AOS that it supported UAE usage to its fullest, including a WinUAE installer/Amiga Forever style installer, like with AmiKit (with adjustable harddisk allocation upon installation).

ironically is "Classic" the only useful version right now if you want to start because of no hardware available. I am pretty sure that there are a number of people that have not bought it because of those limitations. As a company I would not care where someone uses it as long as I get money. But that is me... :)
 

Offline gregthecanuck

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2016, 12:16:46 AM »
Quote from: BSzili;806241
I've never seen a PCI-E 1x graphics card.


You can plug a 16x card into a 1x slot. The card will automatically downgrade.

PCI slots (33Mhz/32bit) don't even saturate the 2.5Gbit/s bandwidth of a single PCI-e 1.0 lane.
 

Offline lionstorm

Re: Introducing Warp3D Nova for AmigaOS 4.1
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2016, 03:30:06 PM »
Quote from: BSzili;806241
I've never seen a PCI-E 1x graphics card.


I bought this one out of ebay for a motherboard where the 16x pci-e was broken : http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-8400-gs/specifications