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AuthorTopic: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita  (Read 3805 times)

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Offline dammy

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2015, 09:18:05 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;790688
is creating a new market an aim for itself? do we need to become addicted to some completely new independent product, as if it was not enough being addicted to amiga as is? what would be the purpose in all that, even assuming it had any chance to happen? i dont get it.


Current market (desktop for middle aged men who want to remember their youth) is a failure.  Target needs to be shifted to the larger (and new to us as a community) market with the goal of obtaining 1% market share.  I think we all can agree there is something special about the Amiga, or at least it's spirit that we have yet to find outside of our communities. It's that spark that we need to present to the rest of the world at their level at competitive pricing.  That spark needs to be not only aimed at middle age men who remember their younger years playing on a A500/A1200, but also the 30s and under crowd that haven't touched anything other then Windows, Android/Linux, or iOS machines.
Dammy

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2015, 10:23:36 PM »
Quote from: dammy;790691
Current market (desktop for middle aged men who want to remember their youth) is a failure.  
That depends on your definition of "failure" and your definition of "market".  
Quote from: dammy;790691
Target needs to be shifted to the larger (and new to us as a community) market with the goal of obtaining 1% market share.  I think we all can agree there is something special about the Amiga, or at least it's spirit that we have yet to find outside of our communities.
Is there? Define what is "special about the Amiga"... because I don't know. The only answer I can give are "old applications". For the problems they solve, there are either better solutions on more modern hardware, or the problems went away, they are no longer relevant.  
Quote from: dammy;790691
It's that spark that we need to present to the rest of the world at their level at competitive pricing.
The "spark" that drove Amiga back then was competing hardware at competative price, giving rise to a software market. Now, competing hardware today spells "PC", and applications spell "Windows compatible". Or, at a even broader level "Smartphone" and "Apps".

Everything that drove the Amiga back then is still there today. It's just on different hardware, different architectures and different products.

I don't know which other "Spark" you mean if there is one. Again, the only spark I remembered went on to other platforms, and for good reason.

Quote from: dammy;790691
That spark needs to be not only aimed at middle age men who remember their younger years playing on a A500/A1200, but also the 30s and under crowd that haven't touched anything other then Windows, Android/Linux, or iOS machines.

Those people want "F*c*book" and "Games". Guess what, they can get that with existing hardware. Or rather, if you want to slam on a solution to that problem the name "Amiga", then it has to be something entirely different than AmigaOs because AmigaOs is certainly *not* good for those people and their applications.

What you fail to realize is that the market changed quite a bit from back then. Back then, the market was (relatively) small compared to today's hardware market, users were "computer freaks" that new about their machines and that defined "playing with them" as "programming them". You could sell hardware by advanced technology because the buyers understood a bit about technology.

Computers today are mass-products. The problems they solve are all-world problems, "F*c*book" I already mentioned, Office, mail, photography, video, games. Users have no clue about their machines, they only use them, and do not buy them because of their advanced technology, but because they have some fruit on their back or a red dot somewhere in the logo. At least the majority of users...  

Now, what exactly is it that Amiga or AmigaOs has to offer here, and how to compete with such products? New hardware? That's PC hardware, because that's the only one that's available for a competitive price. Even the "fruit label" has learned that. Software? Well, that's currently still either the stuff from Billyboy, or the fruity Os. Pengiuns are quite irrelevant for the mass market (server is something different, but do you consider Amiga as a server product?)  And even that is fading away as "product" means more and more "HTML 5" as operating system. Google has learned that lesson very well, and I believe that they will outlast Apple and MS for exactly that reason.

Now, tell me again which relevance AmigaOs could play under such changed circumstances. If I define it by "I need a browser for HTML5", then the Os underneath is irrelevant. But even for Internet, AmigaOs is unsuitable due to Security reasons. Or the utter lack of any security infrastructure to begin with.

The game is simply over, face it. It's an old system, nice to play with, interesting for historical reasons for a handful of old farts like me. If that's not market enough, I don't know.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2015, 11:04:18 PM »
Quote from: dammy;790691
Current market (desktop for middle aged men who want to remember their youth) is a failure.  Target needs to be shifted to the larger (and new to us as a community) market with the goal of obtaining 1% market share.  I think we all can agree there is something special about the Amiga, or at least it's spirit that we have yet to find outside of our communities. It's that spark that we need to present to the rest of the world at their level at competitive pricing.  That spark needs to be not only aimed at middle age men who remember their younger years playing on a A500/A1200, but also the 30s and under crowd that haven't touched anything other then Windows, Android/Linux, or iOS machines.

as one of these middle aged men i dont have any interest in shift to any larger market for younger audience, as this shift is inevitably bound to resignation of what amiga ever was. i really dont understand this logic, and do not see what is there to gain for either party. this is also the reason all amiga ng alternatives are bound to fail, beyond maintaining some sort of status quo. and the people know it instinctively and while dreaming of something never to come do not actually wager to budge a bit, except maybe for pure name fans if they really had some actual label to slap on whatever it might be.
 

Offline Thorham

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2015, 11:21:35 PM »
A future based on AmigaOS? An OS stuck in the past? Why? What's the point? Even my A1200 with 68030 can do better than cruddy old AmigaOS.

Anyone who thinks AOS is going to go anywhere is dreaming and needs to start seeing things from a realistic viewpoint.

Basically it's replace AOS by something that's MUCH better, or no chance in hell.
 

Offline Iggy

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2015, 11:30:40 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;790695
A future based on AmigaOS? An OS stuck in the past? Why? What's the point? Even my A1200 with 68030 can do better than cruddy old AmigaOS.

Anyone who thinks AOS is going to go anywhere is dreaming and needs to start seeing things from a realistic viewpoint.

Basically it's replace AOS by something that's MUCH better, or no chance in hell.

You ARE living in a fantasy, aren't you?
Your '030 is pathetic compared to any cpu used in a NG system.
And comparing my ten years old 2.7 GHz G5 system to your processors is pointless, the 68K series even ramped up to 2 or 3 times it current clock speeds would still benchmark at a small fraction of the performance.

And I was a big supporter of the 68K family when it was relevant.
Of course, that was back in the '80's and '90's when I was working for a company that sold systems based on those processors.

You can continue to live in your dream world, but don't expect to make statements you can't support in public without being challenged.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:33:07 PM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2015, 11:38:08 PM »
Quote from: dammy;790691
Current market (desktop for middle aged men who want to remember their youth) is a failure.  Target needs to be shifted to the larger (and new to us as a community) market with the goal of obtaining 1% market share.  I think we all can agree there is something special about the Amiga, or at least it's spirit that we have yet to find outside of our communities. It's that spark that we need to present to the rest of the world at their level at competitive pricing.  That spark needs to be not only aimed at middle age men who remember their younger years playing on a A500/A1200, but also the 30s and under crowd that haven't touched anything other then Windows, Android/Linux, or iOS machines.


as Thomas already wrote all amiga successors are very unsecure regarding Internet. The only protection right now is obscurity. If you want to attract a broader audience you must offer security and for that you would need memory protection what requires heavy changes at the OS. A modernized OS would have not much to do anymore with the existing platforms and the software would need to be rewritten for it. And you need software and services that are unique and had to be developed as well.

Much more important in my view right now would be modern development tools.

Regarding "middle aged man", I am one of those too

There were millions of Amigas sold in germany so I assume there are a lot of middle aged man who can remember of Amiga. If we manage to convince only parts of these the platform would already be in a much better state. To reach the group of below 30 (the smartphone/tablet generation) you would need something completely different including completely new software so I think that is by far out of reach.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:47:14 PM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2015, 11:41:26 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;790696
You ARE living in a fantasy, aren't you?
Your '030 is pathetic compared to any cpu used in a NG system.
And comparing my ten years old 2.7 GHz G5 system to your processors is pointless, the 68K series even ramped up to 2 or 3 times it current clock speeds would still benchmark at a small fraction of the performance.

And I was a big supporter of the 68K family when it was relevant.
Of course, that was back in the '80's and '90's when I was working for a company that sold systems based on those processors.

You can continue to live in your dream world, but don't expect to make statements you can't support in public without being challenged.


Do not be too proud on your PPC :)

When running 68k in UAE on modern hardware most of the systems are outperformed already (not G5 or X1000 of course, at least not yet)
 

Offline Thorham

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2015, 12:22:51 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;790696
You ARE living in a fantasy, aren't you?
Your '030 is pathetic compared to any cpu used in a NG system.
What on earth do NG systems have to do with the fact that a 68030 can run something better than AOS? I wasn't talking about HARDWARE, I was talking about SOFTWARE. S-O-F-T-W-A-R-E. Get it?

Why, in the name of all that's good and wholesome, would I say that a 68030 can run better things than NG? NG can run something better than AOS, too. In both cases it's only impossible because nothing better has been written yet.

68030 -> Can do better than AOS.
NG -> Can do MUCH better than AOS.

Understand now?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 12:25:43 AM by Thorham »
 

Offline Iggy

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2015, 01:49:43 AM »
Quote from: OlafS3;790699
Do not be too proud on your PPC :)

When running 68k in UAE on modern hardware most of the systems are outperformed already (not G5 or X1000 of course, at least not yet)

You mean running 68K emulation on an X64?
Of course, but that isn't a real 68K.
Its an Intel derived processor pretending its a 68K.

Which, considering my past disdain for Intel's products is pretty depressing.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2015, 02:04:07 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;790703
What on earth do NG systems have to do with the fact that a 68030 can run something better than AOS? I wasn't talking about HARDWARE, I was talking about SOFTWARE. S-O-F-T-W-A-R-E. Get it?

Why, in the name of all that's good and wholesome, would I say that a 68030 can run better things than NG? NG can run something better than AOS, too. In both cases it's only impossible because nothing better has been written yet.

68030 -> Can do better than AOS.
NG -> Can do MUCH better than AOS.

Understand now?

Sorry, I knew it was snide when I posted it.
My apologies for what was probably my deliberate misinterpretation.

Yes AOS is weak.
I have considered purchasing an OS4 system to play around with, but frankly the its a weak re-implementation of OS3.1 (and 3.1 had a lot of rough spots in its day).

We could do better.

Probably why I'm using MorphOS. It could evolve into something completely beyond AOS. Particularly when they make the proposed ISA change and jetison legacy compatibility.

And...I'll have to admit, if a decent re-implementation of the 68K is done, I'll probably follow that really closely.
After all, I was working in sales and development simultaneously when we moved from the 68000 to the 68020.
Frightening jump in performance per cycle (not so much with the '30).
Then the '040 and '060 provided yet another big jump.

Were there a serious attempt to start there ('40/'60), and move forward...
Particularly if it was a higher end FPGA or better yet dedicated silicon...

Hey, you'd have my attention.

A 64bit GHz speed 68K derived processor, yeah a pipe dream, but it would be cool.

And as to Amiga OS?
Yeah we are on the same page.
Too primitive.

Again, my apologies.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Thorham

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2015, 02:22:58 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;790708
Sorry, I knew it was snide when I posted it.
My apologies for what was probably my deliberate misinterpretation.
Cool, thanks :)

Quote from: Iggy;790708
And...I'll have to admit, if a decent re-implementation of the 68K is done, I'll probably follow that really closely.
That's probably very hard, because a reimplementation implies backward compatibility with existing software. If that's the case, then you're still stuck with a sizable portion of AOS crud. What I'd rather see is something completely new that has absolutely no ties to AOS at all, so that you could implement whatever you wanted, in whatever way that you wanted. Classic and NG would have to go their own separate ways, of course.

The big problem is that you'd end up with a cool OS with no software :( For NG it would also mean that there would be no ties to Amiga anymore.
 

Offline Iggy

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2015, 02:41:33 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;790711
Cool, thanks :)


That's probably very hard, because a reimplementation implies backward compatibility with existing software. If that's the case, then you're still stuck with a sizable portion of AOS crud. What I'd rather see is something completely new that has absolutely no ties to AOS at all, so that you could implement whatever you wanted, in whatever way that you wanted. Classic and NG would have to go their own separate ways, of course.

The big problem is that you'd end up with a cool OS with no software :( For NG it would also mean that there would be no ties to Amiga anymore.

Yeah, I know it can be hard to let go.
But evolution offers so much more than backward compatibility does.
The last OS' I used on the 68K were micro kernel OS', as is MorphOS.
Jettison backward compatibility and we can embrace SMP, 32 or 64 bit addressing, and all the other goodies inherent in a modern operating system.
And I know the 68K can do better.
Amiga OS has a lousy multi-tasking system based on a cooperative round robin form of task switching.
Other OS' I've used (for the 68K) had real priority based preemptive multitasking.

Back when Intel boxes couldn't out multi-task a Radio Shack Color Computer, I was using 68K based systems that could dance circles around those lame calculator derived pos.

So, I wholly agree, we could do better.

Even in the '80s and '90s we could have done better.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2015, 05:24:39 AM »
The repsonses by you. It is like the opening to a video game.
"Your 68k is no match for my PowerPC."
"Your puny systems are dead"
Go Go Gadget Signature!
 

Offline Iggy

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2015, 02:46:09 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;790723
The repsonses by you. It is like the opening to a video game.
"Your 68k is no match for my PowerPC."
"Your puny systems are dead"

Sorry, senor Devil Chicken, I was not thinking clearly yesterday.
One-upmanship over such points is childish.
And I still work on hacking project involving 8 and 16 bit processor, if I was that concerned about performance I'd only use modern cpus.

Older hardware holds more than a little fascination for me.

Performance wise, it still can't hold a candle to newer designs.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline mongo

Re: A-EON Interview about Amiga's future - Distrita
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2015, 09:00:50 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;790712

Amiga OS has a lousy multi-tasking system based on a cooperative round robin form of task switching.
Other OS' I've used (for the 68K) had real priority based preemptive multitasking.


The Amiga has always had real priority based preemptive multitasking.