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Offline Iggy

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2011, 02:10:20 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;637683
I hope I did not offend by saying "suckered", We seem to have done the same to ourselves. The unions are running the jobs out of town as well as high cost.
If I buy electronics from Asia, I would like to buy them from Japan.
They seem to have a good quality.

I did see a camera online from a company call Hasselblad. I believe they started in Austria or Switzerland.
 There base DSLR is 13,995.
It is very nice.

I would love to buy from the USA or Europe sometimes and not the Stuff from China.
Their stuff seem to be loosing quality.

Love the anti-union sentiment. Do you really think it matters whether you're comparing union or non-union wages when what you're comparing either to is low cost Chinese slave labor?
Hey, at least the wealthy are doing OK.
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Offline trekiejTopic starter

Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2011, 04:06:21 AM »
I thought about the Chinese work force earlier. It must be nice to have a bunch of slaves who think that supporting master/country is the best. I love my country but I would want to draw the line at killing myself over a job. It seems to be a combination of things that is crippling the world.
From camcorders to a rant in one easy thread/post. :)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 04:07:03 AM by trekiej »
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Offline RobertB

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2011, 04:10:05 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;637683
There base DSLR is 13,995.
For about $6,000 US, you can get a new Hasselblad 503CW with standard lens and finder, and a 120mm *film* back.  :)

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Offline trekiejTopic starter

Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2011, 04:17:24 AM »
I guess I did not dig deep enough into the site.
Thanks.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2011, 04:20:27 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;637703
I thought about the Chinese work force earlier. It must be nice to have a bunch of slaves who think that supporting master/country is the best. I love my country but I would want to draw the line at killing myself over a job. It seems to be a combination of things that is crippling the world.
From camcorders to a rant in one easy thread/post. :)

I guess that's just the price of a new iPhone, dead Foxconn workers.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline trekiejTopic starter

Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2011, 04:30:11 AM »
I have heard that they live above the factory. Some have jumped to their death.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2011, 04:38:54 AM »
Yeah, Chinese dormitories look really grim.
Free market economics and totalitarian countries combine to produce some horrific situations.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline trekiejTopic starter

Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2011, 08:26:40 AM »
I guess I do not have too much against Unions, they seem to be worth it around the first part of the 20th Century.
Now they appear to be socialists.
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Offline Franko

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2011, 08:36:29 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;637725
I guess I do not have too much against Unions, they seem to be worth it around the first part of the 20th Century.
Now they appear to be socialists.


Having been a Union Shop Steward in my time, there was a point where I had great belief in the Unions, but along came Maggie Thatcher in the 80's and with her the end of Union power in this country and a culture that prevails to this day of looking after number 1... :madashell:

Gave up a long time ago defending my fellow workers when too many of them became spineless gits who loved to complain about the way they were miss-treated in the workplace but they never had the guts to back it up with action... :(

Used to think of myself as a proud socialist but these days I'm happier being called a communist... :)
 

Offline trekiejTopic starter

Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2011, 09:09:35 AM »
You are too independent to be a communist.
You are a country unto your self.
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Offline Franko

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2011, 09:38:38 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;637734
You are too independent to be a communist.
You are a country unto your self.


For once I'm at a loss for words... ;)

Not a lot I can say to that... :)

Maybe "Part time" Communist-semi-retired only on a Wednesday will have to do... :)
 

Offline trekiejTopic starter

Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2011, 09:57:05 AM »
I just may find you in a dictionary some where. lol
He shoots he scores! lol
Can't stop laughing.
My stomach hurts.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 09:59:32 AM by trekiej »
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Offline vidarh

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2011, 10:21:47 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;637683
I hope I did not offend by saying "suckered", We seem to have done the same to ourselves. The unions are running the jobs out of town as well as high cost.


Yes, they're running low paid jobs nobody in the west are willing to take at low enough costs out of town. So?

Long term, the Chinese are doing the same. Just like Indian software companies are now increasingly outsourcing to the Chinese because Indian programmers are rapidly becoming too expensive, the Chinese have already started looking to Africa and poorer Asian countries for outsourcing both software development and manufacturing.

Give it 20 years, and there will be Chinese moaning about the exact same things as in this thread.

Know what? It doesn't matter. The jobs that get exported are the ones that are easy to move around. They'll keep going to the lowest bidder currently capable of providing the infrastructure and services.

Yes, Western unemployment rates are high now, but they are regularly during recessions, and then they bounce back. Europeans and Americans have never been as wealthy as a whole as we are now, *because* we're increasingly outsourcing the low skilled jobs and replacing it with stuff that gives a higher return on investment.
 

Offline vidarh

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2011, 10:29:33 AM »
Quote from: Franko;637726
Having been a Union Shop Steward in my time, there was a point where I had great belief in the Unions, but along came Maggie Thatcher in the 80's and with her the end of Union power in this country and a culture that prevails to this day of looking after number 1... :madashell:

Gave up a long time ago defending my fellow workers when too many of them became spineless gits who loved to complain about the way they were miss-treated in the workplace but they never had the guts to back it up with action... :(

Used to think of myself as a proud socialist but these days I'm happier being called a communist... :)


I think of it differently. Most working class people are in fact *not* looking after number 1, and that's the big problem.

If they were looking after number one, they wouldn't let the right wing get away with increasing inequality. Instead most people get suckered into some twisted idea that it's somehow "fair" that they produce most of the value but don't get the return.

Socialism (at least the Marxist kind) and communism is largely about making the working class realise what the rich has known all along: If you want to do well, you need to gang up with like minded and stand up for yourself, or someone else is going to grab whatever they can.

The difference is that for most people it's never going to be viable to reach "the top" so their best bet is to band together and fight for improvements for the class as a whole, so they also need to realise that "looking after number 1" means working as a team.
 

guest7146

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Re: European Camcorders
« Reply #28 from previous page: May 14, 2011, 11:55:53 AM »
Quote from: vidarh;637748
Know what? It doesn't matter. The jobs that get exported are the ones that are easy to move around. They'll keep going to the lowest bidder currently capable of providing the infrastructure and services.

Europeans and Americans have never been as wealthy as a whole as we are now, *because* we're increasingly outsourcing the low skilled jobs and replacing it with stuff that gives a higher return on investment.

Okay, but software development is not a low-skilled job.  Manufacturing isn't either - there may be low skilled operators but the Engineering teams behind the manufacturing have to be very skilled indeed.

So it's not just the low skilled jobs that are being exported.  And even the low-skilled jobs being exported is a problem because it means that millions of people back here cannot get basic factory work.  What do they do instead? Well, they stay at home on benefits of course.  Some of them because they're better off that way, and others because they don't have a choice.

All of this is of course driven by the consumer.  It's our fault because we demanded (and continue to demand) low prices, which results in the manufacturing work being exported to cheaper countries so that the electronics companies can stay profitable.
Back in the 80s it was normal to pay a high price for your consumer electronics goods.  And what we got was better quality product.  Now we have cheap product, but it's poor quality and the jobs associated with it have gone elsewhere.  I think that's a bad thing, and I think the consequences (in terms of unemployment and future prospects) now far out-weigh the benefits (cheap goods for all of us).

That said, I don't see the situation changing any time soon.  Consumers have grown used to paying bottom price for electronics goods.  There's no way they're going to accept paying more now.  And even if they were amenable to it, which company is going to budge first? None of them are going to want to be the first to give up their low prices.  They'd all have to pull out together.  Fat chance of that!

AH.