68k library DVD for Natami MX

[wawrzon]

@vox: a member of the team, i think the name was schoenweiss, was already gathering software to be released with natami. there even was a web page for it but it is lost now. if you are willing to help, why not register on their forum and volunteer? for what i see everybody is welcome. just do not let you get carried away about it like about os4, its only what i say.

[vox]

@vox: a member of the team, i think the name was schoenweiss, was already gathering software to be released with natami. there even was a web page for it but it is lost now. if you are willing to help, why not register on their forum and volunteer? for what i see everybody is welcome. just do not let you get carried away about it like about os4, its only what i say.

Intersted, but I am interested working in behalf all 68k software, especially in compiling last versions that can work emulated but yet half native (GUI, libs etc.) under MOS and OS4. Do you get it now?

Also AROS 68k software, does that exist at all?

[wawrzon]

no, i dont really get whats this fuss about. you want all the 68k software on one dvd? you want help with something? or do you just want to go on talking?

[fishy_fiz]

I must admit Im still a bit sceptical about Natami. I think there's a reasonable chance of it arriving at some pont, but apart from the ability to perhaps be an alternative to classic amigas and minimig I just cant see it doing much. Where's the new software coming from for one thing ? Apart from maybe a release title or 2 I cant see people being in a big rush to create new software for it. There's already significantly more powerful amiga like options out there than natami, and has been for many years, but even they dont have any new software (apart from open source ports). Not to mention that Natami wont even run some 68k software as well as exisiting 68k machines. (will quake 1 or 2 run well on them for example ('060 + voodoo3 runs Q2 acceptably, something Im very dubious of natami). I personally have emailed the Natami team a few times, being interested in developing for it but have received absoultely no responses. The whole thing reeks of an excercise in engineering with a bunch of hanger-ons wanting to big note themselves by calling themselves part of the "team" (and there's actually a few people involved I *know* are exactly like that, but I wont name names).

[commodorejohn]

It's new hardware, though, and a significant improvement over any baseline Amiga. That said, yeah, software might be a problem. On the other hand, it looked from some other threads like they were already porting SDL projects to it around a year ago, so that opens up a sizeable number of options from the open-source software world (doubly so if they can port one or two of the common interface toolkits.)

Yeah, it might not be as powerful as your 060+GPU setup, but on the other hand, it doesn't rely on a base system that's getting increasingly old and worn-out, and that's something right there.

[Franko]

@ fishy_fiz

I don't get this "where's the new software coming from" thing, to me the main purpose of the Natami (should it ever arrive) would quite quite simply be an end to having to take your chances on the like of eBay buying old second hand Amigas or hardware in order to keep using it...

If (and lets say if) the NatAmi were to take off and do reasonably well for itself the I would be one of the ones writing new software for it, as at least you would then be able to write stuff that you knew everyone could use based on the NatAmi's lowest specs...

Plus the new GFX modes should open up a whole new opportunity to create some new and unique software once again, the last thing I want to do on an Amiga is run ports of Microsoft or Apple based software, the Amiga is a very different machine to all the others out there and to me that's the way it should remain...

[fishy_fiz]

SDL software wont be an option for 68k software. Even an '060 struggles with all but the most simple (ie. space invaders/pacman style) SDL software. As for the new screenmodes, the modes it provides (and higher) have been available to the amiga for many years.

[Franko]

SDL software wont be an option for 68k software. Even an '060 struggles with all but the most simple (ie. space invaders/pacman style) SDL software. As for the new screenmodes, the modes it provides (and higher) have been available to the amiga for many years.

Firstly... What's SDL software

[fishy_fiz]

SDL is an open source, multiplatform api that can deal with gfx, audio, io, cdrom, etc.  Basically (for conversations sake) it wraps itself around a host oses apis. The advantage being it's typically easy to port software using it to a platform that supports it, the disadvantage being it's not very efficient, especially in it's amiga incarnations.

[Franko]

SDL is an open source, multiplatform api that can deal with gfx, audio, io, cdrom, etc.  Basically (for conversations sake) it wraps itself around a host oses apis. The advantage being it's typically easy to port software using it to a platform that supports it, the disadvantage being it's not very efficient, especially in it's amiga incarnations.

Ok... Understood...

But you miss the point here of the NatAmi, it's designed with being able to write programmes for it in native Motorola 68K Assembler, it would be pretty pointless in writing software for it using the api you mention as this would simply not get the best from it unlike writting in native Assembler...

You also mention that the enhanced modes (ie:32 Bit TrueColour) have been available on the Amiga for years, by that I take it you mean RTG boards, again though your missing the point how many current Amiga hardware users own an RTG GFX board, not many I'd reckon, and most likely the reason why not very much was ever written to take advantage of them...

The way I see it is the default configuration of the NatAmi would become the de-facto standard for writing new stuff for it in good old M68K Assembler which it has been designed to make best use of...

It would be pretty pointless in the designers spending so much time and effort in making the NatAmi 100% backwards compatible with the M68k series of processors if all folk were going to do was write stuff for it using the kind of thing you mention, you be as well just buying Amiga Forever and writting stuff that way...

[vox]

I must admit Im still a bit sceptical about Natami. I think there's a reasonable chance of it arriving at some pont, but apart from the ability to perhaps be an alternative to classic amigas and minimig I just cant see it doing much. Where's the new software coming from for one thing ? Apart from maybe a release title or 2 I cant see people being in a big rush to create new software for it. There's already significantly more powerful amiga like options out there than natami, and has been for many years, but even they dont have any new software (apart from open source ports). Not to mention that Natami wont even run some 68k software as well as exisiting 68k machines. (will quake 1 or 2 run well on them for example ('060 + voodoo3 runs Q2 acceptably, something Im very dubious of natami). I personally have emailed the Natami team a few times, being interested in developing for it but have received absoultely no responses. The whole thing reeks of an excercise in engineering with a bunch of hanger-ons wanting to big note themselves by calling themselves part of the "team" (and there's actually a few people involved I *know* are exactly like that, but I wont name names).

Even anyone have right to be sceptical about Natami, 68k emulation such as UAE,AmiKit and OS4 and MOS users would benefit for updated 68k DVD oriented at applications, OS libraries and updates, not ADF game libraries.

We dont need to call it Natami DVD even,
how about "Amiga can do it"

[fishy_fiz]

I'd say probably 1/3rd or more of current 68k amiga users have an rtg board of some description. Once upon a time it would have been more, but I think a lot of the "power users" moved on to MOS/OS4/aros. In addition to this I guess the vast majority of UAE users (the biggest part of the amiga user base these days) all have access to rtg modes). As for SDL software, I wasnt advocating it, in fact I was saying it wasnt a good idea on the back of someone else saying that some Natami people had been working on SDL ports. I think you also over estimate just how much stuff is written in 68k asm, its more or less a dead language, even to those that are still developing for the amiga.
The thing is though, why make a machine with enhanced hardware when all its going to do is drive up price and run exisiting software? Something like minimig + fpgarcade seems much more attractive if the idea was simply to offer alternate hardware to actual classics. They offer the same sort of benefits, with a much lower price and without being surrounded by so many clowns.
Another thing to consider is that the compatibility isnt even known yet. It's potentially an awful lot of money to take a gamble on.

[vox]

SDL software wont be an option for 68k software. Even an '060 struggles with all but the most simple (ie. space invaders/pacman style) SDL software. As for the new screenmodes, the modes it provides (and higher) have been available to the amiga for many years.

Idea of this DVD is NOT to explore what 68k can do with new CPU and custom chipset, but to find apps that are most likely to work everywhere, in their latest editions. I believe 1-2$ should go to copyright and software owner, and such contract could be make only if someone would be interested to "organize & centralize" (and earn the benefit for selling such DVD to everyone).

With Amiga Classsic filesizes double layer DVD 8.5GB could contain everything
most important and best. Including best ECS and AGA demos not in AVI.
Some tribute and few dolars yes to Amiga scene, to buy new hardware.

[vox]

I'd say probably 1/3rd or more of current 68k amiga users have an rtg board of some description. Once upon a time it would have been more, but I think a lot of the "power users" moved on to MOS/OS4/aros. In addition to this I guess the vast majority of UAE users (the biggest part of the amiga user base these days) all have access to rtg modes). As for SDL software, I wasnt advocating it, in fact I was saying it wasnt a good idea on the back of someone else saying that some Natami people had been working on SDL ports. I think you also over estimate just how much stuff is written in 68k asm, its more or less a dead language, even to those that are still developing for the amiga.
The thing is though, why make a machine with enhanced hardware when all its going to do is drive up price and run exisiting software? Something like minimig + fpgarcade seems much more attractive if the idea was simply to offer alternate hardware to actual classics. They offer the same sort of benefits, with a much lower price and without being surrounded by so many clowns.
Another thing to consider is that the compatibility isnt even known yet. It's potentially an awful lot of money to take a gamble on.

On such DVD we need separated AGA and RTG software. Who wants Natami will get it, because its their Amiga 6000 and let them enjoy it, just like SAM 460 is PCI-E, DDR2 and 1GHz+  SOC CPU for OS4

[Franko]

@ Fishy_Fiz

I'd say your 1/3 or more figure is way off the mark, I wouldn't even put it as high as 1/4 more like an 1/8 (and that's being optimistic), anway, if it's advertised as 100% backwards compatible and it turns out not to be then it will be one hell of a big fail if that was the case...

Most Amiga stuff was written in 68K Assembler, the poorer quality stuff that ran not to the Amigas full potential were written mostly in C. Plenty of folk still write their own code in Assembler for the Amiga and it will most likely be they who write the new stuff for the Natami as well as those who prefer C...

Again you seem to miss the point here, it's not just about running existing software it's about being able to purchase a brand new bit of kit that's easy to add things like HDs, DVD Drives, USB etc... without having to rely on purchasing old second hand stuff that you can't guarantee will actually be working or how long it's going to last...

[desiv]

SDL software wont be an option for 68k software.

Don't tell Novacoder that.  Just let him continue on with his ScummVM ports.

:-)

desiv