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Offline arnljot

Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #59 from previous page: July 04, 2008, 10:15:41 AM »
seems like the thread died just as it got interesting :)
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Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2008, 08:37:36 PM »
@arnljot:

Maybe this thread just quieted down. :)

To keep Amiga alive, new software releases are necessary - for the 68K platform. Since UAE runs under Windows, Linux (Mac also?), there is plenty of hardware to enjoy "Amiga experience" on even today.

The real question is, what kind of applications have a market for Amiga? Games only? Video/audio processing applications? Productivity software? If Linux has such a broad user base, there is no reason why Linux+UAE should not have a broad user base. Games alone are the reason to "switch." Given the nature of software market for Amiga (abandonware in digital format - no floppies for most part), piracy would most certainly be an issue to a degree.

As I mentioned before, Amiga has some options today, although it seems that it has none. AROS is one possibility, Linux+UAE/Windows+UAE/Mac+UAE another. NatAmi is also a possibility but there is no timeline on that project yet. Minimig looks very good although it is not clear to me if that's just a motherboard or a fully functioning A500-clone.

Yes, "real hardware" is "missing" but the experience of every platform out there is *very* software-driven. Vista is a good example. You can have the best machine to run it on, and people will still perceive Vista as second-rate because of its quirks.

Although I mentioned before that 68K software development is not the best way forward, software is written in C and could be targeted to 68K or whatever other platform. Since UAE has a 68K emulator built in, this is not a showstopper. However, for a New Wave of software packages, Amiga would have to step out of the 68k shell.

Would it  be possible to run Firefox or StarOffice on Amiga (at least in theory)? Very likely, but limitations of 68K architecture remain a constraint.

Which brings me to another thought: what if 68K emulation in UAE allowed for a bigger address space, with either extended command set or an intelligent memory manager?

In this case, 68K language would become something like IL in .NET (low-level language which allows just in time compilation). 68K assembler even looks like a higher-level language :) NatAmi project seems to be using same or similar approach. With memory bounds extended, UAE really could become a new Amiga Operating System in its own right which would run on top of the Linux/Windows/Mac platform.

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Offline persia

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2008, 02:26:41 AM »
I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity.  There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.

In a way I think AROS provides a real option for the future.  AmigaDos is closed source, if KMOS win they will bury the Amiga forever and we will be without a future.  Even if Hyperion win they're going to lock into PPC, which means few options and higher prices and a limited future.  With AROS you have a chance to break free of special hardware and closed source.  
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2008, 07:28:27 AM »
Quote

persia wrote:
I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity.  There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.

 


I always thought PPC was a mistake.  Sure there were some performance advantages over x86 at the time, but Amiga went PPC mainly because they wanted to create a closed-hardware design, where AmigaOS4 wouldn't run easily on generic x86 hardware,  This was ofcourse designed to maximize profits for the hardware developers.  It helped that there was a very anti-intel attitude held by most Amigans at the time, meaning they didn't need to be convinced to go PPC.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2008, 08:04:02 AM »
Quote

stefcep2 wrote:
Quote

persia wrote:
I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity.  There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.

 


I always thought PPC was a mistake.  Sure there were some performance advantages over x86 at the time, but Amiga went PPC mainly because they wanted to create a closed-hardware design, where AmigaOS4 wouldn't run easily on generic x86 hardware,  This was ofcourse designed to maximize profits for the hardware developers.  It helped that there was a very anti-intel attitude held by most Amigans at the time, meaning they didn't need to be convinced to go PPC.


Actually The PPC made perfect sense in about 1996/97... where is was more powerful than the x86, and produced less heat for a given CPU fabrication process... By 1999, it was on shaky ground... both Motorola and IBM were having problems moving it to better fab processes... and by 2001, the very idea of the PPC was crazy... note that this is about the time when Apple started to maintain an x86 build.

You are correct, the hope of A Inc. with the PPC was to lock devs into a hardware platform, not for any technical advantages... instead it killed the platform dead.

Offline stefcep2

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2008, 09:57:13 AM »
Quote

persia wrote:
I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity.  There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.

 


I always thought PPC was a mistake.  Sure there were some performance advantages over x86 at the time, but Amiga went PPC mainly because they wanted to create a closed-hardware design, where AmigaOS4 wouldn't run easily on generic x86 hardware,  This was ofcourse designed to maximize profits for the hardware developers.  It helped that there was a very anti-intel attitude held by most Amigans at the time, meaning they didn't need to be convinced to go PPC.
 

Offline uncharted

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2008, 10:13:04 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

and by 2001, the very idea of the PPC was crazy... note that this is about the time when Apple started to maintain an x86 build.


I think I should add that unlike AmigaOS, OS X has always been designed as platform neutral.  NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP were 68k and x86 before they were PPC, and Darwin has always been available for x86 too.  

What really happened around 2001 (although there has been speculation that actually, this is not really the case) is that someone was actively pulling these parts together and tidying up.  The actual groundwork, the real work, was already done because the NeXT engineers were sensible, forward-thinking guys (if only that were true elsewhere in the industry)

Also note, that unlike Windows, as time has gone on, OS X has become less and less compatible, dropping legacy stuff as it has gone on. With quite a lot of success.  There is even speculation that Snow Leopard will drop PPC compatibility, as part of it's drive to be mean and lean.  This simply doesn't happen elsewhere.  For example, the system I'm currently employed to replace, was originally a Windows 3.1 app.

So to bring this back on topic, AmigaOS was never designed to be independent of the hardware, in particular the CPU and doing that kind of work will take a massive effort.  Secondly, to really move a platform to different hardware there has to be sacrifices made to legacy compatibility to really produce anything worthwhile.  This just could never properly happen on the Amiga. 99% of the software out there will never be replaced.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2008, 10:24:28 AM »
Quote

uncharted wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

and by 2001, the very idea of the PPC was crazy... note that this is about the time when Apple started to maintain an x86 build.


I think I should add that unlike AmigaOS, OS X has always been designed as platform neutral.  NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP were 68k and x86 before they were PPC, and Darwin has always been available for x86 too.  

What really happened around 2001 (although there has been speculation that actually, this is not really the case) is that someone was actively pulling these parts together and tidying up.  The actual groundwork, the real work, was already done because the NeXT engineers were sensible, forward-thinking guys (if only that were true elsewhere in the industry)


Well... that's what I said... am I having difficulty expressing myself today?

Is was around 2001 where Apple Engineers started to maintain an x86 build... that doesn't mean that Darwin didn't already exist on the x86... but it does mean that the x86 source tree is kept in sync with the PPC version.

Quote

Also note, that unlike Windows, as time has gone on, OS X has become less and less compatible, dropping legacy stuff as it has gone on. With quite a lot of success.  There is even speculation that Snow Leopard will drop PPC compatibility, as part of it's drive to be mean and lean.  This simply doesn't happen elsewhere.  For example, the system I'm currently employed to replace, was originally a Windows 3.1 app.


I expect Snow Leopard will drop PPC support, it's nothing more than a streamlined version of Leopard... if you need to run Leopard on a PPC.. well then run Leopard :-)

I expect Leopard to be the last of the PPC OSs from Apple... the next one OS X 10.7 "Mange Ridden Tabby", will be x86 only...

Quote

So to bring this back on topic, AmigaOS was never designed to be independent of the hardware, in particular the CPU and doing that kind of work will take a massive effort.  Secondly, to really move a platform to different hardware there has to be sacrifices made to legacy compatibility to really produce anything worthwhile.  This just could never properly happen on the Amiga. 99% of the software out there will never be replaced.


All very true...

Offline uncharted

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2008, 10:35:31 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Well... that's what I said... am I having difficulty expressing myself today?

Is was around 2001 where Apple Engineers started to maintain an x86 build... that doesn't mean that Darwin didn't already exist on the x86... but it does mean that the x86 source tree is kept in sync with the PPC version.


Don't stress mate, I was elaborating on the situation, not disagreeing with you. :-)  OS X is more than Darwin (or BSD with a pretty windows manager as some around here like to call it), and the point I was trying to elaborate was that a large chunk of other stuff was already x86 as well and that it wasn't a huge upheaval to maintain.  

There is some indication that the whole "started in 2001" thing is bowl-locks anyway, and that there has always been an x86 build.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2008, 10:39:06 AM »
Quote

uncharted wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Well... that's what I said... am I having difficulty expressing myself today?

Is was around 2001 where Apple Engineers started to maintain an x86 build... that doesn't mean that Darwin didn't already exist on the x86... but it does mean that the x86 source tree is kept in sync with the PPC version.


Don't stress mate, I was elaborating on the situation, not disagreeing with you. :-)  


Deep breaths... they are not out to get me...

Quote

OS X is more than Darwin (or BSD with a pretty windows manager as some around here like to call it), and the point I was trying to elaborate was that a large chunk of other stuff was already x86 as well and that it wasn't a huge upheaval to maintain.  

There is some indication that the whole "started in 2001" thing is bowl-locks anyway, and that there has always been an x86 build.


Makes for a nice story though... and Apple is good at selling stories!

Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2008, 04:34:27 PM »
Apple's revival is based on Stevie's Return (to the Dragon's Nest) and purchase of NEXT. NEXT OS was a decade ahead of its time when it came out (around the same time when Amiga started making waves). Does this sound familiar? It was based on, gasp, 68K architecture but designed in a platform-independent way because it grew out of FreeBSD (Mach). Stevie was taking advantage of open source before anyone else knew what it meant *and* he was keeping the OS portable. Portability and clean design (software and hardware) are at the heart of Apple's philosophy. I am by no means a hard-core Apple fan, but I have learned a lot from them :) and their products.

As of OS 4 (and 4.1 if it is really in the works), I tend to ignore it because it does not offer any tangible advantage over OS 3.9. PPC is a dead platform and I do not intend to throw a lot of money after an obsolete Blizzard/Cyberstorm card. Instead, I will just buy another Macbook Pro because I can actually *use* it. Amiga in its present situation, let's face it, is merely a curiosity from the 68K era. With a lot of games :) Productivity applications seem very dated. Platform is largely without support from a major corporate entity. This is why it is so puzzling to me that AROS did not take stronger hold. But, not all things Amiga make sense all the time :)

Can someone post a short list of OS 4/4.1 advantages over OS 3.9? PPC card costs about as much as a half (!) of a top-of-the-line MacBook Pro and I *really* want to know the *real* price of the upgrade. For a monitor connection, I found a great RGB-to-SCART cable which produces a very nice picture on somewhat expensive LCD TV. The "good picture" alone will cost you about $500 on Amiga (with or without flickerfixer witchcraft). Talk about having a choice how to burn five Benjamins.

In another post, I wrote that Amiga's pricing was always an issue. It was just too expensive towards its "demise date" -in comparison with competition. I don't know about others on this forum, but I do look to spend a *reasonable* amount on hardware/software (for selfish and business reasons). This is why I did not buy a Mac G3/G4 when it was released, but much later when it was a bit vintaged. Mac G3/G4 machines offered little more than a colorful plastic shell, with the same sluggish OS. I understand that Apple had to do what it had to do to keep money flowing in for further development, at the time when Woz was too busy with Kathy Griffin and writing his book which left no time to help out with motherboards.

For my money, OS X Leopard is the first *serious* OS from Apple in years because, for once, its timing was perfect, platform fast and secure for the near and mid-term future (going multicore) and SDK simply the best out there. Nothing on IntelMac is half-a$$ed, semi-done or experimental. It is the real deal, the pinnacle of decades of semi-finished, very cool and underpowered products. Stevie is a genius because he made so many mistakes along the way and capitalized on them while keeping the Cool going.

The biggest issue with Amiga may not be the hardware but software. Without a software market, there are no new applications and no need for new hardware. It is a vicious circle, a catch-22 in a Devil's Kitchen (in einer Teufelskueche - this is just for bloodline :)

If German (electrical) engineering could not save Amiga hardware platform, who can? German industrial design saved Apple because it provided a template for the "new" Mac look (of which I have "Braun's" originals laying around in my home). But they are not easy to "copy".

Did anyone manage to copy the BMW ("beemer")? How about a Porsche? PPC Blizzard/Cyberstorm cards? You get my point :)

And we know that Stevie even enjoys German-made washing machines because they have such a cool user interface.

Real artists ship. And steal. In quantities. Amiga needs a good "thief". It also needs to move out of her (evil) dad's basement after all these years, get a haircut, fake boobs , whatever it takes to get "stolen."
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Offline bloodline

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2008, 09:15:50 PM »
Quote

codenetfx wrote:
Apple's revival is based on Stevie's Return (to the Dragon's Nest) and purchase of NEXT. NEXT OS was a decade ahead of its time when it came out (around the same time when Amiga started making waves). Does this sound familiar? It was based on, gasp, 68K architecture but designed in a platform-independent way because it grew out of FreeBSD (Mach). Stevie was taking advantage of open source before anyone else knew what it meant *and* he was keeping the OS portable. Portability and clean design (software and hardware) are at the heart of Apple's philosophy. I am by no means a hard-core Apple fan, but I have learned a lot from them :) and their products.


Steve just did with NeXT as he has always done... He has a possibly unique ability to see which bit of the latest technology is actually useful for peoples lives... picked up the latest tech and put together a great system...

Quote

As of OS 4 (and 4.1 if it is really in the works), I tend to ignore it because it does not offer any tangible advantage over OS 3.9. PPC is a dead platform and I do not intend to throw a lot of money after an obsolete Blizzard/Cyberstorm card. Instead, I will just buy another Macbook Pro because I can actually *use* it. Amiga in its present situation, let's face it, is merely a curiosity from the 68K era. With a lot of games :) Productivity applications seem very dated. Platform is largely without support from a major corporate entity. This is why it is so puzzling to me that AROS did not take stronger hold. But, not all things Amiga make sense all the time :)


The answer to this is twofold...

1. You don't have to justify AROS... With your Expensive custom PPC board and expensive ported OS... you've shelled out a lot of cash... after that there is no way you can admit your are wrong about your choice. With AROS, no such emotional investment is required.

2. The flaws in the idea of  AmigaOS making a return show up more clearly with AROS than on a PPC... Firstly it becomes clear how little NG software is actually available and in fact likely to appear...  You realize that the only thing you really need the Amiga for is old games (which need the Hardware not the OS... and thus UAE is better) and one or two old 68k apps... which run brilliantly in UAE for free... Secondly, limitations in AmigaOS design show up... why bother running a single user, no memory protection, non posix OS when you can run a modern OS for free...


Quote

The biggest issue with Amiga may not be the hardware but software. Without a software market, there are no new applications and no need for new hardware. It is a vicious circle, a catch-22 in a Devil's Kitchen (in einer Teufelskueche - this is just for bloodline :)


Vielen Dank.

Quote

If German (electrical) engineering could not save Amiga hardware platform, who can? German industrial design saved Apple because it provided a template for the "new" Mac look (of which I have "Braun's" originals laying around in my home). But they are not easy to "copy".

Did anyone manage to copy the BMW ("beemer")? How about a Porsche? PPC Blizzard/Cyberstorm cards? You get my point :)

And we know that Stevie even enjoys German-made washing machines because they have such a cool user interface.



Well, Jonathan Ive... is really rather English... but yeah, he has a "Germanisch" eye for form and lines :-)


Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2008, 10:02:44 PM »
@ bloodline

Jonathan Ive was looking at products designed by Braun (German company, makes appliances) back in the 60s and early 70s. Virtually ALL Apple's designs (casing) for G3/G4/G5 iMacs, iPod are not just inspired but almost straight copies of Braun's timeless design. If you google "apple design braun" or "apple design bauhaus" I am sure you will find a lot of interesting articles. Braun has drawn its inspiration from Bauhaus - THE school of industrial design from all the way back in the 1930s. It is said that even legendary Dr. Dipl. Ing Ferdinand Porsche has "stolen" some curves from Bauhaus. He did however improve on it by punching holes in the metal, to reduce weight without sacrificing structural strength of the design. Many of these sources and articles are available in out-of-print books and in German only.

Apple's G5 desktops feature "punctured metal", first featured on early Braun/Grundig/Telefunken AMFM radio receivers. Does anyone even remember Grundig and Telefunken?

Form und Funktion - das Grundprinzip der Bauhaus-Designschule. In Chicago, everywhere you look you can see great examples of same influences applied to architecture, particularly in designs by Frank Lloyd Wright. Not to mention stunning Art Deco designs :)
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Offline bloodline

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2008, 10:14:17 PM »
Quote

codenetfx wrote:
@ bloodline

Jonathan Ive was looking at products designed by Braun (German company, makes appliances) back in the 60s and early 70s. Virtually ALL Apple's designs (casing) for G3/G4/G5 iMacs, iPod are not just inspired but almost straight copies of Braun's timeless design. If you google "apple design braun" or "apple design bauhaus" I am sure you will find a lot of interesting articles. Braun has drawn its inspiration from Bauhaus - THE school of industrial design from all the way back in the 1930s. It is said that even legendary Dr. Dipl. Ing Ferdinand Porsche has "stolen" some curves from Bauhaus. He did however improve on it by punching holes in the metal, to reduce weight without sacrificing structural strength of the design. Many of these sources and articles are available in out-of-print books and in German only.

Apple's G5 desktops feature "punctured metal", first featured on early Braun/Grundig/Telefunken AMFM radio receivers. Does anyone even remember Grundig and Telefunken?

Form und Funktion - das Grundprinzip der Bauhaus-Designschule. In Chicago, everywhere you look you can see great examples of same influences applied to architecture, particularly in designs by Frank Lloyd Wright. Not to mention stunning Art Deco designs :)


Trust me, you are preaching to the choir here :lol:

Offline codenetfx

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2008, 02:46:17 AM »
I may be "preaching to the choir" but I am still trying to figure out why Amiga OS is stuck in 68k world (and PPC world) when Linux (for example) has little trouble attracting people to further develop the platform. Had it not been for UAE (and WinUAE in particular), Amiga would be in an even worse shape.

For now, Amiga's future depends on UAE and AROS - both open source projects.

I am also trying to find out how Amiga Inc. and Hyperion GmbH employees are making it when they do not have a large market. In other words, I am trying to understand the business model behind companies who have cornered themselves out of the market and continue to work on a software product for which nobody (at least it seems that way) is developing software anymore and for which there is little or no hardware to run it on.

There are still two pieces of vaporware to discuss: AmigaAnywhere and OS 5 (which should be "better than OS X and run on any hardware platform"). Amiga Inc. even hired some guy (it says so on the home page) who wrote a software development IDE which runs under OS 4. Again, I am trying to understand how Amiga Inc and Hyperion can sustain themselves in the situation where there is no market for the OS and for Amiga. There is a lot of interest of course and there are, what, maybe few thousand PPC cards out there. Very puzzling.

I am sticking to OS 3.9. At some point I may even "retire" my Amiga collection for good. Yes, I have games but I am not really a gamer (hunter & gatherer. Or, in German, Jaeger und Sammler :) but more of a software afficionado :) The PPC thing reminds me of collecting expensive art pieces: you spend a lot of money on it and hang it on the wall. Not the best thing to do if you like software.

Maybe the only worse thing to do would be to go to amiga.com/shop and browse a "random selection" for games for ... for frigging Windows OS :)))))

Amiga is through the Windows. There is your direction. However you slice it and dice it, Amiga goes through (or out of) the Window(s) :)))))

And we have two Bills to depend on; one is retired and chasing World Peace and the other cannot deliver anything but a press release.
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Offline B00tDisk

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2008, 03:59:01 AM »
Quote

codenetfx wrote:
I may be "preaching to the choir" but I am still trying to figure out why Amiga OS is stuck in 68k world (and PPC world) when Linux (for example) has little trouble attracting people to further develop the platform. Had it not been for UAE (and WinUAE in particular), Amiga would be in an even worse shape.


It's hard to imagine the Amiga being in worse shape than it is now.  A userbase that numbers in the high hundreds (maybe).  Zero up to date applications.  And I mean really and truly up to date.  Holes in the OS big enough to throw a toxic building site in PA through.  

But I digress:  The Amiga OS is stuck in 68k world because of one legal issue after another.  That and it died as a commercially viable platform in the early 1990's, thanks to C='s bankruptcy.  All the good intentions and sincere wishing in the world won't make software companies - Electronic Arts, Microsoft, hell even AOL - stick around once the body corporate dies.

There's two ways forward: forget this nonsense.  There's no "future" for the Amiga beyond fond memories and fun tinkering.  Two: cut all ties with the remaining userbase - both ppc and 68k - and forge ahead with something completely different, running on x86, and only "Amiga" in that it has the name.

AInc in their typically half-assed way attempted number two and failed miserably.  A slew of PoP motherboard manufacturers and they sided with the one that ... well, words fail me.  Rather like A1's fail users.
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