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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Software News => Topic started by: chris on July 20, 2019, 01:50:52 PM

Title: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on July 20, 2019, 01:50:52 PM
NetSurf 3.9 features support for CSS Media Queries (level 4) and improvements to JavaScript handling. Also included are many bug fixes and improvements. We recommend all users upgrade to NetSurf 3.9.

Download for AmigaOS 4 (https://www.netsurf-browser.org/downloads/amiga/)
Download BETA for AmigaOS 3.5+ (http://aminet.net/package/comm/www/netsurf_os3) (check version before downloading as it has only just been uploaded)
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on July 21, 2019, 10:55:23 PM
thanks! Anything special with 68k version? Has it got lost speed back?
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on July 22, 2019, 08:32:22 PM
I haven't made any OS3 specific changes since the previous discussion. Also I haven't fixed whatever was broken because nobody actually told me what needed fixing (the discussion fizzled out before coming to any concrete identification of the cause of the crashes)
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on July 22, 2019, 10:36:33 PM
OK, need check what I can do. Log didn't help?

It is just slow, bog slow with both of my machines. Reverted back KS3.1 other machine, see if problem was KS3.1.4. It din't help. I made a lots of logs to previous thread and situation is about a same.

With

A1200, Blizzard 68060, KS3.1.4 and Mutools installed running, it starts and displays welcome page without images and freezes.
A1200, Apollo 68060, KS3.9, it starts OK, displays images etc. going to amiga.org OK, freezes when I try to go forums.I thing this is some how time related?

Both amiga has same versions of (wich has always worked) guigfx and render libraries.

I

Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Matt_H on July 22, 2019, 11:45:18 PM
Thanks for keeping this maintained, Chris!
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: QBit on July 23, 2019, 05:10:32 AM
Works for me on an 68030 Amiga 1200.. but is slow as hell to a point it's unusable!
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Dynamic_Computing on July 23, 2019, 06:39:39 AM
I really want to love this software, but just never really works for me. I have been playing with it on my A4000 for about a year now. Currently a 68060 / 80 MHz, 96+ MB of RAM and RTG graphics. Occasionally it might load a website, bit then usually just gets stuck and won't do anything... And I go back to iBrowse.
I will try the new version and see if it works better for me. I would love to report the bugs, but the bug for me is that it just does not work. 😢
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on July 23, 2019, 04:08:09 PM
Quote
Occasionally it might load a website, bit then usually just gets stuck and won't do anything.

I have same symptoms.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: redfox on July 23, 2019, 09:05:46 PM
Saddly, this new version of NetSurf is very slow on AMIGA.org ... I get alot of busy pointer activity as the browser is trying to render.  Also have to shut off anti-aliasing when I am attempting to post.  Otherwise, characters disappear as I am typing along the line.

I will most likely go back to NetSurf 3.8 ...

---
redfox
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: redfox on July 23, 2019, 09:41:26 PM
As I mentioned in my previous post, this version of NetSurf is very slow for me on AMIGA.org.
I get alot of busy pointer activity as the browser is trying to render the main list of posts as well as individual threads.

Just for comparison, I tried my other Amiga web browsers ...
AMIGA.org is very slow on Origyn Web Browser 3.31 (Pukapuka), AWEB APL 3.5.12 and IBrowse 2.4.

Better on NetSurf 3.8
Better on TimberWolf 4.0.1 (RC3).
Best on Odyssey Web Browser 1.23

---
redfox
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on July 24, 2019, 12:45:31 AM
As I mentioned in my previous post, this version of NetSurf is very slow for me on AMIGA.org.
I get alot of busy pointer activity as the browser is trying to render the main list of posts as well as individual threads.

Just for comparison, I tried my other Amiga web browsers ...
AMIGA.org is very slow on Origyn Web Browser 3.31 (Pukapuka), AWEB APL 3.5.12 and IBrowse 2.4.

Better on NetSurf 3.8
Better on TimberWolf 4.0.1 (RC3).
Best on Odyssey Web Browser 1.23

---
redfox

Are you running it on OS4?  Maybe try switching JavaScript off?
If it's not that I'm curious to know the cause.

There is mention of it being slower on OS3 but I figured that was because it is buggy on OS3 anyway.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: redfox on July 24, 2019, 04:15:35 AM
Update ...

It is actually the "progress pointer" (arrow with stopwatch) that I am seeing most of the time on AMIGA.org ...

This progress pointer shows up at the same points during download of info as a progress bar shows up when I am using another web browser.  The total time to download this particular forum thread is about the same as when I use much older web browsers.

Running NetSurf 3.9 on the public version of AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 1

System= MicroA1-C with IBM PowerPC 750 GX CPU and 256MB RAM

Progress pointer shows up in all forums on amiga.org, while info is downloading to the display.

My actual "busy pointer" (cloud with ZZ in it) also shows up while scrolling through a thread on the amiga.org forums.

The main www.amiga.org site where you select Forums, Developer, Wiki, Facebook, Store renders ok.

---
redfox

 
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: redfox on July 24, 2019, 05:50:03 AM
Update ...

The following issues appear to be related to something on the AMIGA.org forum site:
- excessive appearances of "progress pointer" while info is coming down to my browser window.
- excessive appearances of "busy pointer" while scrolling up or down using mouse scroll wheel.
- slow jerky movement of the "hand pointer" as I move my mouse across the browser window.

I don't see any of these problems on Amigaworld.net forum site.

I didn't have time to check Amigans.net forum site.

Please note, I also see the progress bar alot using Origyn Web Browser on AMIGA.org forum site.

---
redfox
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on July 24, 2019, 11:35:14 PM
@redfox
Can you go into prefs and check that cache native bitmaps is set to "scaled". I think the option is in the rendering tab.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: redfox on July 26, 2019, 04:14:00 AM
Thanks Chris.

It was set for "none".  Now set to "scaled".  No longer experiencing excessive appearances of the "progress pointer".
Still get a few appearances of "busy pointer" as I scroll up and down the web browser window.

Very satisfied now with accessing Amiga.org forums.

Thanks,
redfox
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Rotzloeffel on July 26, 2019, 07:31:01 AM
Works for me on an 68030 Amiga 1200.. but is slow as hell to a point it's unusable!

On these slow machines, I recommend to use a small Raspberry PI with SSLSTRIP installed. You are then able to use the PI as a Proxy-Server with port 10000 on your Amiga. The Raspberry will "decode" the SSL-encryption and you can use normal http:// instead of https:// with gives you much more higher Performance on the Amiga.

also usefull for faster machines :)
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Primax on July 27, 2019, 05:08:47 PM
This actually is not a solution (at least for me) because I want to use the browser on my real Amiga.
I do also have an Amiga1200 with Blizzard 1230-IV, 128 MB RAM and SSD.
I have been playing around with Netsurf since the early versions. And I must agree with QBit: This version is by far the most slowly one.
But first the good points: https-support again works! This is very important otherwise not usable.  Thank you very much for fixing it!
And: Netsurf is very stable - except the the Guru message which appears after quitting Netsurf.

In order to have figures which are comparable I always test which time Netsurf takes to load amiga-news.de and the Aminet website.
Loading the Aminet website takes - like the previous versions - about 35 seconds. Of course loading animations and any kind of pictures disabled.
But for loading amiga-news.de - a https connection - now Netsurf takes more than 110 seconds.

Except for the loading time: If I have scrolled the website - the Aminet website I have to scroll vertically and horizontally while amiga-news.de at least I have only to scroll down - it takes several seconds for displaying the final view. This is sobering.

Please do not get me wrong: I know I have an old and slow system. And I am really delighted that I get this new browser running on my system at all. I would use it more often if e.g. such a "simple text website" like Aminet (html 4, no pictures, no animations) would be loaded in at least 10 seconds.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on July 28, 2019, 12:50:57 PM
I've just remembered that there is a patch I put on locally for 020 optimisation. This won't have that. I'll have to push it to master.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on July 28, 2019, 11:53:20 PM
I've just remembered that there is a patch I put on locally for 020 optimisation. This won't have that. I'll have to push it to master.

Next build after 4720 hopefully will have the speed back again.

I'd completely forgotten I'd made a local change which never made it to the repo.  I think I was warned off it because the compiler should be built with the correct default options, but as nobody could tell me how to do that I never managed to figure out how.  Hence this optimisation got a bit lost  :-\
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Primax on August 03, 2019, 10:53:28 AM
I just installed the latest build 4769. But I must say that I could not notice any speed improvements (Aminet 35 seconds, amiga-news.de 110 sec).
Have you already added the optimisation?
By the way: Is there any changelog for each single build?
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 05, 2019, 10:19:34 PM
It is faster with 68030 than 68060.  Tested Blizzard 68060 os 3.1.4 installed top of 3.9 and Apollo 68060 os 3.9.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Kawazu on August 06, 2019, 08:57:17 PM
Would love if this browser would "work" its just to slow compared to iBrowse, locksup on 9/10 pages i try and i just super slow.
A3000T
CSPPC 72mhz/233mhz 128mb
Prometheus
Voodoo 3
PCI NIC
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 06, 2019, 10:43:45 PM
Quote
Would love if this browser would "work" its just to slow compared to iBrowse, locksup on 9/10 pages i try and i just super slow.

It used to be fast with 68060, now it is as you say super slow. I have very similar experiences with it.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: vince_6 on August 09, 2019, 03:35:44 PM
I know it's slow but there is no comparison with IBrowse.
The second loads 5% of a page and most of the times completely wrong.
It is a miracle that this works in an 030.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 09, 2019, 10:22:43 PM
:D and it is faster with 68030 than with 68060. Some times I get to amiga.org forums, some times not. But it renders forums frontpage 3-5 minits if it doesn't give time out or just get unresponsive.

It used to be 23-30 seconds.

Comparing just pure CPU power and your results, amiga.org should render about 23-30 seconds, like it used to do.

iBrowse just doesn't renders pages, it has very limited html support these days and I 99% sure that these results woun't get much faster.

Netsurf 68k would require some "special love", in current form it is useless. Though I haven't tested it with UAE.



Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on August 10, 2019, 12:34:19 AM
I just installed the latest build 4769. But I must say that I could not notice any speed improvements (Aminet 35 seconds, amiga-news.de 110 sec).
Have you already added the optimisation?

Yes, and all the libs look to be rebuilt  :(

Quote
By the way: Is there any changelog for each single build?

Yes, you can get them by clicking the build number on Jenkins. eg, https://ci.netsurf-browser.org/jenkins/view/NetSurf/job/netsurf/4818/ is the info for 4818.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: treqie on August 13, 2019, 09:09:29 AM
Weird thought, how about a long listing of features in the engine, where you could enable/disable stuff? So you can, at your choosing, break and/or speed up the loading of a website.. :p
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on August 13, 2019, 11:46:01 PM
Weird thought, how about a long listing of features in the engine, where you could enable/disable stuff? So you can, at your choosing, break and/or speed up the loading of a website.. :p

I think that's the "Enable JavaScript" toggle in the menu.

Incidentally, scaling has now been moved to the core. Not sure if it has affected speed, but there's a chance that it now isn't trying to do floating point maths at times when it may have before.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 14, 2019, 04:48:13 PM
I think that it is just like it used to be with 68030, but considering my and others 68060 users results, it seems that 68060 cpu support is f*cked some how.

Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: NovaCoder on August 15, 2019, 12:41:33 AM
I think it should be compiled for 040+FPU at a minimum because there is no point trying to get NetSurf running on anything less.



Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 15, 2019, 09:05:06 AM
Novacoder is right, 68040 is absolutely minium for this. And every possible way to get more speed is needed to get this as usefull as possible.

Realistic minium for CPU and ram is 68040 with 32mb ram. It surely start with basic installation OS 6030 with 16 mb ram. Netsurf takes about 10,5mb when started.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Primax on August 16, 2019, 07:10:26 AM
I have to disagree!
Then you could also say: Use a emulator. But actually many users have an Amiga with 030 accelerator board.
I would suggest: Please optimize it for a minimum of 64MB RAM, better 128MB.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 16, 2019, 07:46:24 AM
Quote
I have to disagree!
Then you could also say: Use a emulator. But actually many users have an Amiga with 030 accelerator board.
I would suggest: Please optimize it for a minimum of 64MB RAM, better 128MB.

Do you understand what you are saying? 68030 is just not enough. When talking about web browser ram is matter of usage, not for optimization.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Rotzloeffel on August 17, 2019, 12:16:54 PM
I am trying the 68 k Version and it allways reminds me for having the guigfx.library installed. It is installed! What else du I need ? I can not see any specials in Snoopdos.

Thanks
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 18, 2019, 12:05:23 AM
jos you have guigfx.library on libs? You would also need render.library

http://aminet.net/package/dev/misc/guigfxlib
http://aminet.net/package/dev/misc/renderlib31

Are you sure that you have 68k version of guigfx library installed?
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Rotzloeffel on August 19, 2019, 09:50:08 AM
jos you have guigfx.library on libs? You would also need render.library
Are you sure that you have 68k version of guigfx library installed?

Yes, the render.library did the trick :) Thanks... The Errormessage allways said, that guigfx.library is missing.... but after installing render.library everthing is working.... but extreamly slow! 3.7 is 4 times faster....
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 19, 2019, 10:59:28 PM
Intresting, are you sure that four times is enough. ;) What kind of Amiga you have? I ques that 68040 or 68060 because 68030 doesn't seem to get that genera slow down.

But in preferences in images settings cache native version is it on and java disabled?
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: Rotzloeffel on August 20, 2019, 08:38:35 AM
four times was just a "Feeling". I Checked with Startpage of a1k.org ... in 3.7 it Needs 18 Seconds in 3.9 60,2.. so 4 times is not that much incorrect.... And on this page there is nothing Special....
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: chris on August 20, 2019, 11:54:31 PM

Yes, the render.library did the trick :) Thanks... The Errormessage allways said, that guigfx.library is missing.... but after installing render.library everthing is working....

That's because guigfx needs render but NetSurf only needs guigfx, it doesn't know about render.

Quote
but extreamly slow! 3.7 is 4 times faster....

The source code is available if somebody actually wants to try fixing this issue rather than just whinging about it on a forum.

As it happens, it appears that I've used -m68020 everywhere and although I don't recall changing this, at some point in the past I'm fairly sure I used one of the more compatible options.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: NovaCoder on August 21, 2019, 02:06:41 AM
I recently compiled NetSurf 3.9 on Linux and it was pretty bloody slow even on my PC so maybe the problem is that NetSurf has simply got too much for low powered machines?   

Unfortunately this tends to happen with large open source projects as more features are added it becomes harder to run ports on older machines, ScummVM is a good example of this (try running version 2.1 on an 030!).

I appreciate your AmigaOS porting efforts Chris  8)
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on August 21, 2019, 08:09:00 AM
NovaCoder: There are plenty of settings to tinker. Disabling java speeds up 68k version a lot (or at least it used to do) In preferenses image settings cache native versions all also speeds up. etc.

Could you consider to help Chris with this? This was really near to be usefull with real amigas. Practical hardware minium was 68040 with 32b ram. This site used to render about 20 seconds.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: nbache on August 21, 2019, 11:57:26 AM
@chris:

Quote
That's because guigfx needs render but NetSurf only needs guigfx, it doesn't know about render.
This confusion has hit users many times before (including myself) and is a common issue in forum posts.

Maybe the error message could be changed to say "... guigfx.library (and/or render.library) ..." or something?

Best regards,

Niels
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: NovaCoder on August 23, 2019, 01:38:16 AM
NovaCoder: There are plenty of settings to tinker. Disabling java speeds up 68k version a lot (or at least it used to do) In preferenses image settings cache native versions all also speeds up. etc.

Could you consider to help Chris with this? This was really near to be usefull with real amigas. Practical hardware minium was 68040 with 32b ram. This site used to render about 20 seconds.

I'm not doing much in the way of Amiga coding these days and to be honest this is not my area of expertise so I doubt I'd be of much help anyway.
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: treqie on September 12, 2019, 09:35:54 AM
I tried artis port of netsurf (on a 1200/060). And it felt a lot faster? Do the ports differ that much? or is my configuration for chris port in need of some setting?  :p or should they be somewhat on par with eachother?
Title: Re: NetSurf 3.9 web browser released
Post by: utri007 on September 12, 2019, 01:04:51 PM
It used to be much faster than Artis fork. About 2x. Something has happened and speed is lost.

You should try 3.6 etc