Amiga.org

Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: Papa6 on November 21, 2017, 12:37:19 AM

Title: Request about OS Development
Post by: Papa6 on November 21, 2017, 12:37:19 AM
I'm a user from the Amiga500 days. I got my one and only Amiga500 in 1989/90'ish.

I have Amiga forever & I bought a licensed, legal version of AO 4.1 FE.

This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?

I know the OS is coded for a different architecture. But an x86_64 version, I could enjoy multibooting into the OS on my system at home.

:lol: just a thought I had is all.

-p6
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on November 21, 2017, 01:05:13 AM
Good luck with this request. I think devs. think that if you run AmigaOS on intel world will end. Running AmigaOS on cheap and fast HW. Never.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: giZmo350 on November 21, 2017, 01:24:21 AM
Quote from: Papa6;833382
I have Amiga forever & I bought a licensed, legal version of AO 4.1 FE.  

This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?


-p6

NO! That's what all the fuss is always about here! :roflmao:
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on November 21, 2017, 02:02:41 AM
To do "development" requires two things: developers and money. Both of which are in short supply. :(
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: giZmo350 on November 21, 2017, 02:30:36 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;833390
To do "development" requires two things: developers and money. Both of which are in short supply. :(


Or perhaps a third option? Papa6, can you write up an "RFP"?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: LoadWB on November 21, 2017, 02:33:55 AM
You must be new around these here parts.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: giZmo350 on November 21, 2017, 02:42:53 AM
Quote from: LoadWB;833393
You must be new around these here parts.

:roflmao::lol::roflmao::lol::laughing:
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: rshimada on November 21, 2017, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: Papa6;833382
This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?

There have been attempts.

One project that isn't dead yet is http://www.aros.org/introduction/
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: pVC on November 21, 2017, 06:24:49 AM
Quote from: Papa6;833382
This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?


You would lose backwards binary compatibility with old Amiga software then, that's the major point why we are using PPC.

And backwards compatibility has been the major issue why AROS hasn't got more popular over all these years...
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: LoadWB on November 21, 2017, 06:30:39 AM
Eh, PPC doesn't run 680x0 natively, does it?  Doesn't MorphOS and AmigaOS4 have an emulation layer for this?  Why can't AROS?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on November 21, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: Papa6;833382
I
This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?

Well, this would make more sense than PPC, but - on an absolute scale - is still not a very sensible thing to do. Using x86 instead of PPC would have been an "ok" choice back then when porting the Os to another architecture seemed like a good idea, like 15 years ago, but nowadays, it looks simply insane to me.

Frankly, there are many better operating sytems for x86_64 on the market than AmigaOs, and given the non-availability of software for Os 4.x anyhow, why would one want to shrink the software pool once again by going to another platform (again).
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: bloodline on November 21, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: LoadWB;833398
Eh, PPC doesn't run 680x0 natively, does it?  Doesn't MorphOS and AmigaOS4 have an emulation layer for this?  Why can't AROS?
AROS is "AmigaOS" on x86_64, and it is a really fun project, I have learnt so much from it and a really recommend trying it out!

Thomas is correct though, from an architectural pint of view the design goals of AmigaOS are far removed from what is needed in an operating system in 2017.

As for adding an inbuilt 68k emulator to a x86_64, I tried it, and hit two problems: endianess (which was quite easy, but very time consuming to solve) and address space size. Unfortunately as soon as the OS and the app operate in different size address spaces they can no longer share data structures, which is a a key architectural design feature of AmigaOS (other operating systems are far more strict about control of the address space).

You can read my issues here: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72059
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: LoadWB on November 21, 2017, 02:17:32 PM
Obviously there's a difference in man-power and funding, but has anyone done an analysis of how Apple moved MacOS from PPC to Intel and the application of those ideas to AmigaOS?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on November 21, 2017, 03:30:07 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;833414
Obviously there's a difference in man-power and funding, but has anyone done an analysis of how Apple moved MacOS from PPC to Intel and the application of those ideas to AmigaOS?

Well, you kow how to become a millionaire? Be a billionaire, and inverst the billions into Amiga development - it's really so easy. Apple had money, funding, and a paying customer base. Now look. See the difference?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on November 21, 2017, 04:22:01 PM
Quote from: bloodline;833404
AROS is "AmigaOS" on x86_64, and it is a really fun project, I have learnt so much from it and a really recommend trying it out!

Thomas is correct though, from an architectural pint of view the design goals of AmigaOS are far removed from what is needed in an operating system in 2017.

As for adding an inbuilt 68k emulator to a x86_64, I tried it, and hit two problems: endianess (which was quite easy, but very time consuming to solve) and address space size. Unfortunately as soon as the OS and the app operate in different size address spaces they can no longer share data structures, which is a a key architectural design feature of AmigaOS (other operating systems are far more strict about control of the address space).

You can read my issues here: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72059

Who really cares about an inbuilt, seamless emulator for 68K apps on x86_64 AROS?  Are the folks who use x86_64 AROS really using 68K software?  That's a rhetorical question and the answer is no.  They're using AROS native apps.  So what's wrong with using the non-seamless UAE on AROS if they really, really want to run 68K apps on AROS?  That's what x86_64 users have been doing on Linux, MacOS and Windows for years and it works great.  So the argument that we shouldn't adopt the x86 architecture in order to retain 68K legacy compatibility is ridiculous.  You have to let go of the past to move forward.  Microsoft did....you can't run DOS apps on the current Windows nor Win16 apps without emulation or virtual machines.  Same goes for Apple.  You can't run classic OS9 or PPC apps on current Macs....both parties now rely on emulators or virtual machines for legacy support....DOSBox, VMWare, UAE, VirtualBox, etc...This obsessing over legacy compatibility has led to a dead end street.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on November 21, 2017, 04:34:43 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833417
Well, you kow how to become a millionaire? Be a billionaire, and inverst the billions into Amiga development - it's really so easy. Apple had money, funding, and a paying customer base. Now look. See the difference?

You're definitely not a programmer who I'd want on my team if you believe that money is the solution or even a substitute for real analysis and engineering.

Funny how Linux is free and it's been ported to every architecture under the sun.....best thing that could happen for OS3 and OS4 is that they be open sourced, but that won't happen....too much greed going on with what's left of the Amiga legacy.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on November 21, 2017, 04:38:06 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;833419
You're definitely not a programmer who I'd want on my team if you believe that money is the solution or even a substitute for real analysis and engineering.
But it can be a pretty good incentive to reach out for engineers, and let them do what your product needs.

Quote from: ferrellsl;833419
Funny how Linux is free and it's been ported to every architecture under the sun.....
Then, if Linux suits your needs, why complain about AmigaOs? Don't worry, I'm using linux,and I'm also contributing a bit, so don't worry.

But if you want the answer on the question how Apple could manage that, then this answer is very simple: Money. You don't need to like it, but that's how it worked.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on November 21, 2017, 05:33:42 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;833398
Eh, PPC doesn't run 680x0 natively, does it?  Doesn't MorphOS and AmigaOS4 have an emulation layer for this?  Why can't AROS?


You can get big endian PowerPC chips, you can't get big endian x64 chips.

It's possible to create an x64 compiler which deals with the endian conversion (bonus points if you can figure out how to make it only do the endian conversion for data that really matters).

This is how amithlon added support for native code. Recreating it with the ability to use Amiga OS 3.1 and the 68k PCI libraries to use network/graphics cards etc would be a start. Then duplicate the way of switching from 68k to x86 from amithlon & you can start replacing 68k libraries with x64 versions (potentially from aros).
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: polyp2000 on November 21, 2017, 06:11:30 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;833398
Eh, PPC doesn't run 680x0 natively, does it?  Doesn't MorphOS and AmigaOS4 have an emulation layer for this?  Why can't AROS?


Isnt this what JANUS is for on Aros ?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on November 21, 2017, 06:17:43 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;833418
 You have to let go of the past to move forward.  Microsoft did....you can't run DOS apps on the current Windows nor Win16 apps without emulation or virtual machines.  Same goes for Apple.
So did most users. They moved forward, ditched AmigaOs and got a serious system. So what exactly is "forward" for you?

Somehow, you seem to believe that we "only" need to port AmigaOs to x86, and everything else will come by itself. That, however, is a big misconception. This ship sailed away a long time ago. Approximately 20 years ago.

Quote from: ferrellsl;833418
This obsessing over legacy compatibility has led to a dead end street.
No, you just haven't understood what this market is about. If you are serious about breaking compatibility, then many users have already made the step and bought a new machine. PC, Apple,  you name it. So what exactly is it that keeps people interested in Amiga, if not old applications?

It's called "retro computing", and it is a completely different market. A market, where legacy compatiblity is of utmost importance.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: olsen on November 21, 2017, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;833419
You're definitely not a programmer who I'd want on my team if you believe that money is the solution or even a substitute for real analysis and engineering.
In my experience, money can help shrinking a fair lot of those tricky bits. You are going to pay for that in the long run, though.

Quote
Funny how Linux is free and it's been ported to every architecture under the sun.....best thing that could happen for OS3 and OS4 is that they be open sourced, but that won't happen....too much greed going on with what's left of the Amiga legacy.

Aside comparing two very different pieces of work, created through very different processes, what always strikes me as odd is that the seeming simplicity of AmigaOS and its hardware platform suggests to many critics that everything about the troubles operating system and platform went through might have been caused by simple events which should be simple to sort out. Such as singling out greed as a significant contributor to the troubles.

If only it were greed, or shortsightedness, management failure, absense of a technically inclined founder, or the initial technical edge slipping away because Commodore's controlling shareholders didn't feel like spending any money at all whatsoever on anything, or just about anything else you could reasonably expect to get your head around. Something, anything that could be measured in humanly understandable terms as a handful of events conspiring against the Amiga.

There is no single cause of failure, or a small set of causes which led to failure. It's a frustratingly large number of events battering the Amiga, death by a thousand cuts, stretched over 9-10 years, followed by more grief and tragedy over the next ten years, etc.

Strangely, the Amiga was tested by tragedy and somehow did not disintegrate. To me that's much more interesting than to look for a convenient choice of possible causes, none of which allow us to learn from the past and find a better way for the Amiga to continue to stick around.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: LoadWB on November 21, 2017, 07:49:21 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833417
Well, you kow how to become a millionaire? Be a billionaire, and inverst the billions into Amiga development - it's really so easy. Apple had money, funding, and a paying customer base. Now look. See the difference?

I already conceded to your point, and that's not what I asked in the first place.  I realize the flights of fancy surrounding the imminent resurgence, rebirth, and market domination of Amiga can get people overly sensitive to the question, but that was not my intention and normally I wouldn't even go through this amount of explanation were it not for the level of respect I have for those still developing on Amiga.

I simply asked if anyone had done an analysis of what Apple did and realistically applied it to what could or would need to be done with AmigaOS.  Apple really hasn't kept things secret since the move was done.  Seriously.  People analyze stupid shyt all the time and make hour-long YouTube videos and lengthy tech blog posts, so it would stand to reason that someone might have done such an analysis, if only to put it to bed forever.

It's easy to dismiss the whole idea as "not enough money, not enough people, not enough time," but the technical aspect alone I would imagine would intrigue someone.  While it does intrigue me, I lack the necessary experience and knowledge to break it down the way it deserves.  I know there are a number of lengthy, in-depth write-ups of the Apple move to Intel, and while I understand while reading much of what gets put out there I would be lying to the universe if I said I had the necessary skill-set to do a proper analysis.

EDIT: I also realize we would be looking at a three-fold move: first from the old OS9 way of things on PPC including running 68k, the move to BSD-based OSX with OS9 compatibility, then the move to Intel.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on November 21, 2017, 08:14:31 PM
Quote from: olsen;833426
In my experience, money can help shrinking a fair lot of those tricky bits. You are going to pay for that in the long run, though.



Aside comparing two very different pieces of work, created through very different processes, what always strikes me as odd is that the seeming simplicity of AmigaOS and its hardware platform suggests to many critics that everything about the troubles operating system and platform went through might have been caused by simple events which should be simple to sort out. Such as singling out greed as a significant contributor to the troubles.

If only it were greed, or shortsightedness, management failure, absense of a technically inclined founder, or the initial technical edge slipping away because Commodore's controlling shareholders didn't feel like spending any money at all whatsoever on anything, or just about anything else you could reasonably expect to get your head around. Something, anything that could be measured in humanly understandable terms as a handful of events conspiring against the Amiga.

There is no single cause of failure, or a small set of causes which led to failure. It's a frustratingly large number of events battering the Amiga, death by a thousand cuts, stretched over 9-10 years, followed by more grief and tragedy over the next ten years, etc.

Strangely, the Amiga was tested by tragedy and somehow did not disintegrate. To me that's much more interesting than to look for a convenient choice of possible causes, none of which allow us to learn from the past and find a better way for the Amiga to continue to stick around.



Interestingly enough, AROS, both the x86_64 and 68K versions, were also written for free.  So again, if anyone thinks money is the cure for the Amiga's ills, they're sorely mistaken.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Fats on November 21, 2017, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;833414
Obviously there's a difference in man-power and funding, but has anyone done an analysis of how Apple moved MacOS from PPC to Intel and the application of those ideas to AmigaOS?


If I remember correctly they used fat binaries; e.g. the programs just included a PPC and a x86 version in the same file. I'm not sure much Amiga minded guys get warm for such bloat.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on November 21, 2017, 09:31:46 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;833432
Interestingly enough, AROS, both the x86_64 and 68K versions, were also written for free.  So again, if anyone thinks money is the cure for the Amiga's ills, they're sorely mistaken.

And how many of the legacy amiga applications does it run without problems, with which performance, and what is the user count on this?

Again, nothing against AROS, but you're comparing apples and oranges. AROS is there to make AROS programmers happy. AmigaOs is there to make retro-users happy.

Different goals, different rules.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Hans_ on November 21, 2017, 10:16:50 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;833432
Interestingly enough, AROS, both the x86_64 and 68K versions, were also written for free.  So again, if anyone thinks money is the cure for the Amiga's ills, they're sorely mistaken.


Sure, money alone solves nothing. However, imagine what would happen if everyone with AmigaOS development expertise could work on it full-time.** Progress would be a lot faster. What would it take to make that happen? Yep, that's right, they'd need to be paid so they can work full-time & still be able to buy food and put a roof over their head.

Hans

** Of course, I'm talking about focused development with well thought out priorities. Haphazard development rarely gets things moving in the right direction.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on November 22, 2017, 12:09:28 AM
Quote from: Hans_;833437
Sure, money alone solves nothing. However, imagine what would happen if everyone with AmigaOS development expertise could work on it full-time.** Progress would be a lot faster. What would it take to make that happen? Yep, that's right, they'd need to be paid so they can work full-time & still be able to buy food and put a roof over their head.

Hans

** Of course, I'm talking about focused development with well thought out priorities. Haphazard development rarely gets things moving in the right direction.


... and this will never happen, since AmigaOS is nothing anybody (with exception of hobbyist) cares about and wanted to pay money for. AmigaOS is nothing to stand in line overnight to get, there is no feature that makes it better then popular OSes.

Financial support can only be provided by Amiga hobby st/fanatics ;), that are willing to pay for greatly limited OS and hardware. End of story.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on November 22, 2017, 12:10:53 AM
Quote from: Hans_;833437
Sure, money alone solves nothing. However, imagine what would happen if everyone with AmigaOS development expertise could work on it full-time.** Progress would be a lot faster. What would it take to make that happen? Yep, that's right, they'd need to be paid so they can work full-time & still be able to buy food and put a roof over their head.

Hans

** Of course, I'm talking about focused development with well thought out priorities. Haphazard development rarely gets things moving in the right direction.


... and this will never happen, since AmigaOS is nothing anybody (with exception of hobbyist) cares about and wanted to pay money for. AmigaOS is nothing to stand in line overnight to get, there is no feature that makes it better/wanted then popular OSes. Even non-user friendly Linux gives more options and software that people could use.

Financial support can only be provided by Amiga hobbyist/fanatics ;), that are willing to pay for greatly limited OS and hardware. End of story.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on November 22, 2017, 12:32:29 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833436
And how many of the legacy amiga applications does it run without problems, with which performance, and what is the user count on this?

Again, nothing against AROS, but you're comparing apples and oranges. AROS is there to make AROS programmers happy. AmigaOs is there to make retro-users happy.

Different goals, different rules.



They run just fine using Janus UAE for AROS:   https://sourceforge.net/projects/janus-uae/

or E-UAE:  http://aros.sourceforge.net/documentation/users/applications/euae.php

And for seamless emulation on AROS, the best emulator is AmiBridge which is part of the IcarosDesktop distro:  http://vmwaros.blogspot.com/p/amibridge.html

So no, I'm not comparing apples to oranges.  Someone asked why the Amiga hadn't moved away from a dead CPU architecture and the response was "We need a sh@t load of money to make that happen" and "We need to maintain 100% legacy compatibility".  Those are both fallacies perpetuated by folks who still want to monetize a dead OS called OS3.x and OS4 isn't far behind it.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on November 22, 2017, 12:37:20 AM
Quote from: Hans_;833437
Sure, money alone solves nothing. However, imagine what would happen if everyone with AmigaOS development expertise could work on it full-time.** Progress would be a lot faster. What would it take to make that happen? Yep, that's right, they'd need to be paid so they can work full-time & still be able to buy food and put a roof over their head.

Hans

** Of course, I'm talking about focused development with well thought out priorities. Haphazard development rarely gets things moving in the right direction.


That's pretty funny because people pay a LOT of $$ for OS4 and NG hardware yet both are  still stuck in 2003.  OS4 has rough feature parity with Windows 98 and I have cell phones that outperform NG PPC hardware.  So yep, that's right, charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware hasn't panned out like you suggest.

As for trying to make a living coding for dead platforms one should lower their financial expectations or look for another line of work.  FYI, no one is making a living coding for the C64 or the Spectrum ZX-81 anymore either.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Hans_ on November 22, 2017, 01:01:54 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;833450
That's pretty funny because people pay a LOT of $$ for OS4 and NG hardware yet both are  still stuck in 2003.  OS4 has rough feature parity with Windows 98 and I have cell phones that outperform NG PPC hardware.  So yep, that's right, charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware hasn't panned out like you suggest.
Where did I suggest "charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware?" I didn't use those words anywhere, nor did I imply it.

I'm simply pointing out that money could in fact help... if you found a suitable source of funds and used it for full-time "focused development with well thought out priorities." Where exactly you get those funds from is beside the point.

Hans
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on November 22, 2017, 01:31:27 AM
From my perspective AmigaOS4.x doesn't bring nothing new to my "Amiga" experience (sure, it is nice, there are few other things, I will share my experience later). ALL software I want/can use was written for AmigaOS3.x and actually it works even WORST under AmigaOS4.1 (glitches etc.). Sure, there is few games, "new" calendar... etc. There is no any software that "needs" AmigaOS4.x. Only difference between OS3.x and OS4.x is NEW hardware (expensive and "if" available), so system is faster, but from productivity point of view not much changed in last 10 years of OS4.x.

I have no idea why PPC was selected as a future CPU for AmigaOS, AmigaOS4.x is NOT "compatible" with any AmigaOS3.x software (as far as I can tell)! What would be a problem to "emulate" compatibility in the same way as today on AmigaOS4.x but do this on intel CPUs?

Sure, someone invested 10+ years of work/money into AmigaOS4.x, but it looks for me as a DEAD end, in next 10 years PPC will be obsolete and AmigaHW WILL be dead with it.

Considering that AmigaOS is super niche system, we should have HW platform that is CHEAP and AVAILABLE. AmigaOS should be like a virus that can be installed on the most common "host" to create base of users that will be attached to SYSTEM, no hardware.

Ask how many MacOS users cares about intel CPU vs. PPC vs. Motorola, not many. During AmiWest I heard that best Amiga to UAE Amiga...
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on November 22, 2017, 01:56:06 AM
Quote from: Hans_;833451
Where did I suggest "charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware?" I didn't use those words anywhere, nor did I imply it.

I'm simply pointing out that money could in fact help... if you found a suitable source of funds and used it for full-time "focused development with well thought out priorities." Where exactly you get those funds from is beside the point.

Hans

My point is that there won't be any funding sizable enough to sustain one's lifestyle let alone enough revenue to create a sustainable business when it comes to the Amiga and its legacy.  Hyperion has been on life support for years.  And even the Vampire finds its appeal limited to original Amiga enthusiasts so there's no market to be had beyond those folks who have already owned classic Amigas and look to replace or enhance their aging systems.  To believe that Amigas will somehow go mainstream (classic or NG) in the future and support businesses with programmers writing new and useful apps is simply delusional.  The Amiga is dead, both the 68K and PPC varieties.   So all this talk about people needing to pay up and support Amiga programmers and businesses is a bit ridiculous.  You'll have about the same level of success convincing people to pay for apps being written for MS-DOS.

As for money helping, I'd counter that the money would be there if there were compelling products that people actually wanted to buy.  Delivery dates missed by years and broken promises doesn't instill consumer confidence, so prospective buyers take their money elsewhere.  Yes, I'm talking about device drivers, office suites, multi-user security, modern web browsers that support SSL, SMP, 64-bit support, etc....until OS4 steps into the 21st century its user base will continue to shrink to where even the fanatics here won't buy it anymore.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Papa6 on November 22, 2017, 04:58:26 AM
I never intended to upset anyone. this is just a thought I had is all.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on November 22, 2017, 06:01:02 AM
Quote from: Papa6;833463
I never intended to upset anyone. this is just a thought I had is all.

I don't think anyone is upset here.  We just have differing opinions.  With the exception of 3-4 people on this site, most are great people and I respect their opinions even though I may disagree with those opinions.

The ones who upset me are those who can't offer any constructive criticisms or support their own opinions with any type of logic so they start calling other people names.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kolla on November 22, 2017, 06:24:27 AM
Quote from: LoadWB;833414
Obviously there's a difference in man-power and funding, but has anyone done an analysis of how Apple moved MacOS from PPC to Intel and the application of those ideas to AmigaOS?


Apple never did this "move", the OS was running on Intel since NeXTStep days. It was ported *from* Intel *to* PowerPC through the days of Rhapsody, released as OSX once port was done. And for how many years was OSX as product PowerPC only? Very few, just enough for third party developers to move away from old MacOS.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: pVC on November 22, 2017, 06:37:05 AM
Quote from: LoadWB;833398
Eh, PPC doesn't run 680x0 natively, does it?  Doesn't MorphOS and AmigaOS4 have an emulation layer for this?  Why can't AROS?

MorphOS and OS4 only emulate the CPU, but nothing else. They are otherwise API compatible with AmigaOS 3 and old software run under PPC native OS without recompiling. Old programs use PPC native libraries, GUI toolkits, etc, which makes them really fast comparing to UAE environments that emulate the whole Amiga machines/OS/components. This kind of solution is only possible efficiently because PPC and 68k have the same endianness, and that's not the case with x86/x64.

On AROS (x86) you have to use UAE based solution for classic software. It is slower because it emulates the whole machine, and what is worst in my opinion, is that 68k programs run isolated from the main OS. You can't use 68k libraries, device drivers, shell commands, etc under AROS like you can do with MorphOS/OS4. Programs can't interact with ARexx etc.

On AROS you have to re-compile everything you want to run under AROS itself, and I think that's the main point why AROS had so slow start despite the lead of years, because there just weren't source codes available for all you need. On MorphOS and OS4 we had to use a lot of 68k binaries to fill the gaps on native software selection. Nowadays less, but I still use pretty much 68k stuff in my everyday system. But without this kind of transparent integrated compatibility MorphOS and OS4 wouldn't have got anywhere ever, and it's still what appeals many people and makes these operating systems feel like real continuity to classic Amiga, and not being just yet another UAE boxes.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Kronos on November 22, 2017, 02:58:46 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;833419

Funny how Linux is free and it's been ported to every architecture under the sun.....


Take any given HW that does not have a financial interest behind it and see how fast things fall apart.....


Linux may be free to use, but very little of it is actually done for free.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on November 22, 2017, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;833428
I simply asked if anyone had done an analysis of what Apple did and realistically applied it to what could or would need to be done with AmigaOS.


The first thing they did was write an emulator, the first version http://apple.wikia.com/wiki/System_7.1.2 only contained 10% native code.

You'd start with a UEFI bootable x64 68k emulator which only emulates the hardware well enough for os legal software to work.

Then allow the emulator access to real hardware and start writing replacements for things like serial.device, scsi.device etc and use Remus to create a custom kickstart.

You hit problems running native code if you want to target little endian (x86/x64) which apple didn't have to deal with for the PowerPC versions of MacOS. So you'd need to build a compiler that deals with it (you're essentially recreating Amithlon)

When they switched to intel they threw out MacOS and replaced it with MacOSX. This it the equivalent of installing Linux with an Amiga themed window manager and running AROS Hosted on it.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: bloodline on November 22, 2017, 09:30:19 PM
Quote from: psxphill;833489


When they (Apple) switched to intel they threw out MacOS and replaced it with MacOSX. This it the equivalent of installing Linux with an Amiga themed window manager and running AROS Hosted on it.


Which is exactly what should have happened to the Amiga 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Rob on November 22, 2017, 09:32:44 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;833432
Interestingly enough, AROS, both the x86_64 and 68K versions, were also written for free.  So again, if anyone thinks money is the cure for the Amiga's ills, they're sorely mistaken.

I wonder what USB support would be like on AROS were it not for the nearly $4000 given to Chris Hodges to port Poseidon to AROS i386.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Rob on November 22, 2017, 09:38:05 PM
Quote from: bloodline;833493
Which is exactly what should have happened to the Amiga 20 years ago.


It would have if Amiga International hadn't  blown the deal with QSSL.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kolla on November 23, 2017, 12:46:27 AM
Quote from: Kronos;833477
Take any given HW that does not have a financial interest behind it and see how fast things fall apart.....


Linux may be free to use, but very little of it is actually done for free.


Got any example of such an architecture?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kolla on November 23, 2017, 12:52:15 AM
Quote from: psxphill;833489

When they switched to intel they threw out MacOS and replaced it with MacOSX. This it the equivalent of installing Linux with an Amiga themed window manager and running AROS Hosted on it.


Again, no. OS-X was when porting *to* PowerPC was finished, not porting to Intel. Sigh.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: Hans_ on November 23, 2017, 01:42:27 AM
Quote from: kolla;833497
Got any example of such an architecture?


AMD pays their own developers to work on the Radeon drivers & Linux kernel for their hardware. IBM pays developers for the Power architecture. Intel also has an open source team.

The organisations behind Linux distros like Red Hat & Ubuntu also pay developers to work on Linux (paid for by things such as enterprise support contracts).

Heck, Android is based on Linux and also has paid developers working on it.

A lot of money gets spent on Linux development.

Hans
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ne_one on November 23, 2017, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: bloodline;833493
Which is exactly what should have happened to the Amiga 20 years ago.


And exactly what should still happen.

We've heard the same non-sensical arguments about endian orientation, preserving compatibility, limited resources, lack of qualified developers, non-existent funding and how alternative solutions relegate AmigaOS to the scrapheap for 2 decades.

In the meantime, a significant amount of money has been invested in developing the A1222, X1000 and X5000 - all of which are outdated, expensive and have suffered significant shortfalls in software support.

If you peel back the litany of excuses it ultimately comes down to two things: fraudulence and ineptitude.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on November 23, 2017, 10:57:00 AM
Quote from: ne_one;833503
In the meantime, a significant amount of money has been invested in developing the A1222, X1000 and X5000 - all of which are outdated, expensive and have suffered significant shortfalls in software support.
Yes, and I personally never quite understood this move. Just for the records. The people the build the hardware are not the same that worked on the software. The problem is that the market is too small to create a competative hardware that is cost-efficient, So in essence, switching the architecture "pulled the rug" under the development. Not enough users because the hardware was too expensive, and the hardware was so expensive because there are not enough users.

Quote from: ne_one;833503
If you peel back the litany of excuses it ultimately comes down to two things: fraudulence and ineptitude.
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on November 23, 2017, 12:47:24 PM
Quote from: kolla;833499
Again, no. OS-X was when porting *to* PowerPC was finished, not porting to Intel. Sigh.

You're a drama queen, my point is valid. MacOS X always ran on Intel, they just didn't sell it. MacOS X was essentially a reskinned NextStep, it ran on x86 before it ran on PowerPC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQaqDQx3Lo8

MacOS X didn't need 68k & x64 structures to be compatible as the 68k code was running in an emulator. In classic MacOS they were able to keep all memory structures compatible because they were both big endian CPUs.

Quote from: bloodline;833493
Which is exactly what should have happened to the Amiga 20 years ago.

AROS is more than 20 years old. It's biggest problem was that people hated x86 back then, people even made Intel Outside stickers. It was too late by the time the user base had conceded defeat on the CPU. Apple had the revenue, nobody else did.

The "if commodore had survived, they would have .... " argument is also kinda difficult to make. IMO if they had paid the xor patent fee so that they could import CD32 into the US and then be able to pay the factory who made them then they might have survived for a little longer. But the PlayStation would have eaten their lunch. Commodore didn't really know what to do after they launched the a500.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kolla on November 23, 2017, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: Hans_;833502

A lot of money gets spent on Linux development.


Sure, but you kinda came with a reversed answer :)

I was interested in architectures that have lost kernel support due to lack of money.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kolla on November 23, 2017, 05:35:54 PM
Quote from: psxphill;833512
MacOS X always ran on Intel, they just didn't sell it. MacOS X was essentially a reskinned NextStep, it ran on x86 before it ran on PowerPC.


Exactly, this time you got it right :)
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on November 23, 2017, 09:39:50 PM
Quote from: kolla;833518
Exactly, this time you got it right :)


So getting me to expand my answer for your pedantry was worthwhile?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kolla on November 24, 2017, 05:08:43 AM
Quote from: psxphill;833523
So getting me to expand my answer for your pedantry was worthwhile?


Sure, because what you said first was wrong, simple as that.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: wizzard_o on November 24, 2017, 07:13:32 AM
Port OS4 to "#?" Processor arguments are moot, PPC = OS4, AROS = x86 & OS3 = 68K.

I have several Sun Sparc stations but do you hear me bleating on about porting OS4 to it, noooo.... :lol:

Wizz.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: bloodline on November 24, 2017, 08:23:03 AM
Quote from: psxphill;833422
You can get big endian PowerPC chips, you can't get big endian x64 chips.

It's possible to create an x64 compiler which deals with the endian conversion (bonus points if you can figure out how to make it only do the endian conversion for data that really matters).


Hi psxphill, if you read my earlier post, I link to my inline 68k emulator. Endian issues are annoying but not a huge problem. They simply require a translation layer. In my 68k emulator the emulated 68000 is allowed access to the x86 address space, when running on AROS, all the OS data structures an Amiga App running in that space expects to find will be present and so the App will run (just as it does on 68k AROS). The big problem comes when trying to run the 68000 App on a 64bit processor like the x86_64, then the Amiga App can only see the first 4gig of memory, but all the the OS data structures and even the Application itself could be anywhere in a multi terabyte address space (this is address space, not simply installed RAM)... so it will fail and there is no way around this.

The 68k Amiga is firmly trapped in a 32bit world.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on November 24, 2017, 10:11:53 AM
Quote from: bloodline;833534
when running on AROS, all the OS data structures an Amiga App running in that space expects to find will be present and so the App will run (just as it does on 68k AROS).

How do you solve the problem of

DWORD x=0x12345678;
char *y=hello";

char a = [(char *)&x)[0];
char b = y[0];

a is different on a big endian cpu to a little endian cpu.

Have you essentially created a little endian 68k so it will work with native AROS structures when accessing the data with the same size as it was defined? That might work in some situations, but it's trivial to create an example where it would fail.

[QUOTE="bloodline;833534]The big problem comes when trying to run the 68000 App on a 64bit processor like the x86_64, then the Amiga App can only see the first 4gig of memory, but all the the OS data structures and even the Application itself could be anywhere in a multi terabyte address space (this is address space, not simply installed RAM)... so it will fail and there is no way around this.

The 68k Amiga is firmly trapped in a 32bit world.[/QUOTE]

Where the OS structures are is irrelevant, they will contain 64 bit pointers so the offsets will be all wrong. You could however create an x32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI AROS build.

This would have most of the benefits of x64 (see previous link) but still allow 68k code to run, potentially as well as legacy Power PC apps (if you write another emulator). If you have solved the endian issue (and I'm looking forward to your explanation) then you might be able to throw in a way of switching to x86 code as well as supporting this on x86 builds of AROS, otherwise you need an x32 big endian ABI.

You could create another method for allocating memory > 64gb for ramdisk & file system caches where you can guarantee the pointers won't need to be accessed outside the task. Which could be used on x32 builds and x86 builds using PAE.

Apple & Microsoft have gone through similar issues.

Also, how did you handle switching between x86->68k->x86 because it would be nice if exec/SetFunction could be used from both x86 & 68k code and have it be called transparently.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on November 29, 2017, 05:11:46 PM
What more to add, AmigaOS should run on PC without any type of emulation and populate any single PC like a virus, spread as much as possible. That way AmigaOS would become accessible for people. Cheap hardware would give it a chance. After that the REAL problem would be lack of any type of productivity software, but I would worry about this LATER, when I can run AmigaOS on my PC.

BUT situation above would be viable only when we start thinking about AmigaOS as system that actually is USEFUL for most of people, at this point AmigaOS is purely hobby. Considering prices of Amiga HW this type of expense will not be justified by anybody, but AmigaOS fanatics or alternative universe fans.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on November 29, 2017, 06:12:24 PM
Quote from: kreciu;833615
AmigaOS should run on PC without any type of emulation and populate any single PC like a virus, spread as much as possible.
And why exactly should it do that? Os development did not stop 25 years ago. AmigaOs is illl-designed for modern requirements. I always call it a "toy operating system" because it lacks any services that would be important today. Even if - the market works today different than it did 25 years ago.
Back then, computers were used by hobbyitsts, hackers, gamers, freaks... today, they are a commodity. You cannot expect a "modern user" to know what a .info file is, or how to "lay out" icons. It's all the wrong concept.


Quote from: kreciu;833615
That way AmigaOS would become accessible for people. Cheap hardware would give it a chance. After that the REAL problem would be lack of any type of productivity software, but I would worry about this LATER, when I can run AmigaOS on my PC.
Yeah, right. And this "worry about the pesky details later" approach was exactly the reason why the PPC experiment is right now where it is. "PPC is the future, let's worry about the applications later".

You need to understand that *today* the market works differently. Nobody worries about the hardware anymore. You have it anyhow. The apps are what matters. Commodity for the user. You don't buy a computer today because it is "cool hardware". You buy it because "it looks nice" and "it runs the stuff I need". It is reduced to things the average user understands: "How thin is it" (that is currently what people seem to want) and "does it do what I need".

AmigaOs cannot do that. The Amiga story as a "useful computer" ended last century already - as I say, this ship sailed away a long time ago.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on November 29, 2017, 08:23:11 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833617
And why exactly should it do that? Os development did not stop 25 years ago. AmigaOs is illl-designed for modern requirements. I always call it a "toy operating system" because it lacks any services that would be important today. Even if - the market works today different than it did 25 years ago.
Back then, computers were used by hobbyitsts, hackers, gamers, freaks... today, they are a commodity. You cannot expect a "modern user" to know what a .info file is, or how to "lay out" icons. It's all the wrong concept.


I know, but somewhere behind my head I have this sentiment that AmigaOS could takeover whole world :). I feel like 25 years ago when you actually could get Amiga500 in the store. It is somehow hard for me to think about AmigaOS as a pure "hobby" (even if it is for me... hobby!).

I actually did real work on my beloved A600 back in time.


Quote
Yeah, right. And this "worry about the pesky details later" approach was exactly the reason why the PPC experiment is right now where it is. "PPC is the future, let's worry about the applications later".


Really? From my perspective I did not see it, maybe from dev. perspective PPC was the future. I liked more AmigaOS, not necessarily as a best OS, but it was nice and CHEAP alternative to PC.

Quote
You need to understand that *today* the market works differently. Nobody worries about the hardware anymore. You have it anyhow. The apps are what matters. Commodity for the user. You don't buy a computer today because it is "cool hardware". You buy it because "it looks nice" and "it runs the stuff I need". It is reduced to things the average user understands: "How thin is it" (that is currently what people seem to want) and "does it do what I need".


Exactly, nobody cares about HW, but there is boatload of PC hardware and it will not go away "tommorow", and asking to pay $2000 for HW that can run AmigaOS in a relatively well is a LOT of money AND based on number of various motherboard revisions for AmigaOS4.x idea of having proprietary HW to run AmigaOS4.1 is simply BAD. Now, we have like few versions of AmigaOS4.1 for each HW? Strange.

OK. If not PC, why not to make it run on old MacPPC hardware. This "old" HW is way better  then NEW and I can get PowerMAC G5 as a scrap metal price. Wait. I have old completely unused iBookG4 in my storage. That move would not require 100% "rewrite" of AmigaOS. Is that right? So why not?

Quote
AmigaOs cannot do that. The Amiga story as a "useful computer" ended last century already - as I say, this ship sailed away a long time ago.


This is a statement, that depend on attitude of person saying it :). Let say idea of "useful computer" based on AmigaOS is gone.

Why can't I install AmigaOS on MacPPC? You just wrote that nobody cares about hardware they use. Apparently people who own rights for AmigaOS care about $2000 mobos that is slower(?) then PowerMAC G5  and promise hardware for months or years.

It is taking about 2 years to release A1222. How long it will take to adapt AmigaOS for MacMini, PowerMac etc. It is funny how MorphOS "jumped" on new AmigaOS hardware and somehow MorphOS dev. could adapt it FROM Mac to new HW, quite fast.

Linux on PowerMAC, simply great speed:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so35SrThHUs
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: number6 on November 29, 2017, 08:45:21 PM
Quote from: kreciu;833618
OK. If not PC, why not to make it run on old MacPPC hardware. This "old" HW is way better  then NEW and I can get PowerMAC G5 as a scrap metal price. Wait. I have old completely unused iBookG4 in my storage. That move would not require 100% "rewrite" of AmigaOS. Is that right? So why not?

Why can't I install AmigaOS on MacPPC? You just wrote that nobody cares about hardware they use. Apparently people who own rights for AmigaOS care about $2000 mobos that is slower(?) then PowerMAC G5  and promise hardware for months or years.

It is taking about 2 years to release A1222. How long it will take to adapt AmigaOS for MacMini, PowerMac etc. It is funny how MorphOS "jumped" on new AmigaOS hardware and somehow MorphOS dev. could adapt it FROM Mac to new HW, quite fast.


Consider the possibility that contracts and agreements exist that, at this time, are still in place and need be honored.

#6
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on November 29, 2017, 08:50:54 PM
Quote from: number6;833619
Consider the possibility that contracts and agreements exist that, at this time, are still in place and need be honored.

#6


IF that is true, then we can't do nothing about it, but IF it is not... then I don't know why not.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: number6 on November 29, 2017, 09:03:10 PM
Quote from: kreciu;833620
IF that is true, then we can't do nothing about it, but IF it is not... then I don't know why not.


Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions from public information that exists.
In that vein, if you devote the time to read what follows, you might conclude there are yet
other factors involved:

Source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=41775&forum=2&viewmode=flat&order=0)

I outline in latter pages, where applicable, certain important dates that are on the horizon which might affect change.
Regardless, enjoy your hobby. This series of filings merely illustrates that some people are forced to spend both their time and money on "other" things currently.

#6
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on November 29, 2017, 10:25:20 PM
Quote from: kreciu;833618
I know, but somewhere behind my head I have this sentiment that AmigaOS could takeover whole world :).


According to Commodore UK there were 5 million Amiga sold in UK and USA.

Sony sold 100 million PlayStation, 155 million PlayStation 2, 80 million PlayStation 3, 67 million PlayStation 4.

Amiga has no hope of taking over anything.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: AmigaNG on November 30, 2017, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: psxphill;833624
According to Commodore UK there were 5 million Amiga sold in UK and USA. Sony sold 100 million PlayStation, 155 million PlayStation 2, 80 million PlayStation 3, 67 million PlayStation 4.
 Amiga has no hope of taking over anything.


I do think some people aim way to high for the amiga market, I think if we could get the community back to where it was in the 90s it would be victory, which is now regarded a small community and would only make up around 1% of the computer market today, but still be a thrive little community for us to have and I think there is still a small chance that such a community could be built.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: stefcep2 on November 30, 2017, 11:13:18 AM
Quote from: AmigaNG;833633
I do think some people aim way to high for the amiga market, I think if we could get the community back to where it was in the 90s it would be victory, which is now regarded a small community and would only make up around 1% of the computer market today, but still be a thrive little community for us to have and I think there is still a small chance that such a community could be built.


1%?  I seriously doubt it is that high.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on November 30, 2017, 07:00:24 PM
Quote from: AmigaNG;833633
I do think some people aim way to high for the amiga market, I think if we could get the community back to where it was in the 90s it would be victory, which is now regarded a small community and would only make up around 1% of the computer market today, but still be a thrive little community for us to have and I think there is still a small chance that such a community could be built.


Do you have any idea how large 1% of the current computer market is today?  You obviously don't because it's in the millions.  Linux has 3.37% of the entire market currently and in 2014 there were an estimated 14 million Linux users.

There can't be more than 5,000 Amiga users worldwide at the moment, so either you need to brush up on your math skills or bring your expectations back down to the real world.

It would be different if the Amiga had something to offer the general consumer, but it doesn't.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on November 30, 2017, 09:49:25 PM
Quote from: AmigaNG;833633
I think there is still a small chance that such a community could be built.


Build it and see. But how will it be different to Linux?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: gregthecanuck on December 01, 2017, 12:58:16 AM
Quote from: psxphill;833645
Build it and see. But how will it be different to Linux?


I think that we need to let this play out. There are a lot of people looking for a simple desktop experience. Other operating systems (i.e. Windows) are getting huge and piggish.

The snappiness and compact setup of Amiga operating systems is attractive... especially with the new Vampires coming soon with 512MB memory and full HDMI support.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: ferrellsl on December 01, 2017, 03:35:22 AM
Quote from: gregthecanuck;833651
I think that we need to let this play out.



It's like an old gold mine that played out years ago.  There's nothing left but a few scraps....
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: gregthecanuck on December 01, 2017, 06:24:45 AM
Now where did I put my 'grumpy old man' GIF....   ;-)

It appears AmigaKit just sold out their most recent batch of Vampires in one day... again. When the standalone comes out that will start another wave of adoption.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: polyp2000 on December 01, 2017, 10:04:09 AM
Quote from: Papa6;833382


I have Amiga forever & I bought a licensed, legal version of AO 4.1 FE.

This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?


Yes it can , only Hyperion dont think thats a good business plan.
Quote from: Papa6;833382

But an x86_64 version, I could enjoy multibooting into the OS on my system at home.


You any many others desire this , but due to the Hyperions stance on this the only way you are going to be able to achieve this is using AROS . An Open Source implementation of AmigaOS.

In the long run AROS will still be standing when Hyperion are dead and buried as the source code is legally available and distributable to the public. Theres also the fact that commodity X86 hardware is much less expensive. This makes the barrier to entry a much more reasonable proposition .

But Hyperion dont care about that nor listen to the wishes of the Amiga Community.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: stefcep2 on December 01, 2017, 11:17:52 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833617
And why exactly should it do that? Os development did not stop 25 years ago. AmigaOs is illl-designed for modern requirements. I always call it a "toy operating system" because it lacks any services that would be important today. Even if - the market works today different than it did 25 years ago.
Back then, computers were used by hobbyitsts, hackers, gamers, freaks... today, they are a commodity. You cannot expect a "modern user" to know what a .info file is, or how to "lay out" icons. It's all the wrong concept.



Yeah, right. And this "worry about the pesky details later" approach was exactly the reason why the PPC experiment is right now where it is. "PPC is the future, let's worry about the applications later".

You need to understand that *today* the market works differently. Nobody worries about the hardware anymore. You have it anyhow. The apps are what matters. Commodity for the user. You don't buy a computer today because it is "cool hardware". You buy it because "it looks nice" and "it runs the stuff I need". It is reduced to things the average user understands: "How thin is it" (that is currently what people seem to want) and "does it do what I need".

AmigaOs cannot do that. The Amiga story as a "useful computer" ended last century already - as I say, this ship sailed away a long time ago.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a16010/30-year-old-computer-runs-school-heat/
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: sim085 on December 01, 2017, 11:32:54 AM
Is there any OS feature which is better in AmigaOS than in Linux or Unix? And I am not speaking about the 80s. I mean now; something that Amiga OS still does better than the other more developed operating systems out there. Something which is fundamental to AmigaOS and done differently in other operating systems and AmigaOS way of doing this is still better than how the other operating systems are doing it.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: wawrzon on December 01, 2017, 11:35:10 AM
Quote from: gregthecanuck;833657
Now where did I put my 'grumpy old man' GIF....   ;-)

It appears AmigaKit just sold out their most recent batch of Vampires in one day... again. When the standalone comes out that will start another wave of adoption.


as others said. amiga is good for what it does, because of legacy and backwards compatibility. and it applies to vampire/apolloas much if not more then to the other options.

now, throw out shared memory space and messaging by pointers in order to get some memory protection..

throw out amiga os legacy balast for contemporary features, you will lose that compatibility and will get some sort of linux distribution. already enough genuinely missing components of amiga os, such as networking are just ports from other systems, for instance bsd. i cant imagine a realistic way to achieve a new "amiga os" other than simply putting together a choice of existing open source software. btw, it will become as bloated according to the features you expect. there are poeople that complain aros takes 10mb disk space (without fonts) and doesnt run on bare 68000, you know?

considering above, there are the vlid options:

1. stay with what you have or follow the consevative improvement patch based on ganuine sources, as proposed by thor and olsen.

2. design an open os as compatible with the genuine and incorporating as much modern features as possible, which is aros.

all else is insane.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: gregthecanuck on December 01, 2017, 11:57:33 AM
@wawrzon

Well the hardware has to come first. As more Vampires ship there will be more pushes to advance the operating system... and finance updates.

I am backing both the Thor/Olsen OS3.x updates AND the AROS updates as much as possible. I think in the long run there is opportunity for cooperation. I would suggest Hyperion start experimenting with open-sourcing parts of OS3.1.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: NorthWay on December 01, 2017, 12:55:52 PM
If you insist on going "modern" I'd take a deep breath and wait and see what you can achieve when/if Mill Computing delivers their new architecture. I find them extremely interesting.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: number6 on December 01, 2017, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: polyp2000;833658
Yes it can , only Hyperion dont think thats a good business plan.


You any many others desire this , but due to the Hyperions stance on this the only way you are going to be able to achieve this is using AROS . An Open Source implementation of AmigaOS.

In the long run AROS will still be standing when Hyperion are dead and buried as the source code is legally available and distributable to the public. Theres also the fact that commodity X86 hardware is much less expensive. This makes the barrier to entry a much more reasonable proposition .

But Hyperion dont care about that nor listen to the wishes of the Amiga Community.


It might be wise to consider alternative points of view to "business plan":

Source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40622&forum=2&start=600&viewmode=flat&order=0#771394)

#6
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on December 01, 2017, 03:19:11 PM
Quote from: sim085;833661
Is there any OS feature which is better in AmigaOS than in Linux or Unix? And I am not speaking about the 80s. I mean now; something that Amiga OS still does better than the other more developed operating systems out there. Something which is fundamental to AmigaOS and done differently in other operating systems and AmigaOS way of doing this is still better than how the other operating systems are doing it.

Not really. Everything was designed to work within the confines of the hardware.

If you don't have access to an mmu then you can't make use of it, so you may as well make the most of all programs being able to read and write all memory. Now you have an MMU, that falls apart.

If today's hardware was available in the 80's then you wouldn't design amigaos the same way.

The one feature I used to miss was drive names rather than letters and being able to use volume labels instead. But there are issues with the way amigaos did that as well, it's greatest use was with using removable media for working storage & we don't tend to use that now.

Quote from: stefcep2;833660
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a16010/30-year-old-computer-runs-school-heat/

You'll always find examples like that. I knew someone who had been using a BBC micro for running a custom lighting rig for 30 years. Like the amiga running an air conditioner, it didn't really make much sense. You could use something more modern, more reliable, more supportable.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on December 01, 2017, 03:30:15 PM
Reading about all this legal issues etc. it only shows that "Amiga Community" is like any community without it head/leadership (at this point it is hard to call it COMMUNITY, only common things is name "Amiga" somewhere at the back of the head...). "Amiga Community" is in a some sort of vegetative state. It is not expanding, but it is not dead. Individuals are trying to push it in various directions of development, that only wastes resources/time on unfinished, buggy HW/software that feels as it is always in "beta". There is so many ideas what Amiga is as many users.

I'm thinking of getting A1222, but now I started to think: who is going to provide any type of support for this computer? Nobody cares anymore about ClassicPPC users, nobody cares about Sam user or even X1000 users... We definitely need like 50 different motherboards running AmigaOS4.x so devs. can spend they free time developing new ethernet drivers every time new mobo surface.

Have you ever seen chicken "running" without head?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on December 01, 2017, 03:40:07 PM
Quote from: sim085;833661
Is there any OS feature which is better in AmigaOS than in Linux or Unix?
Not really.

There are a couple of nice features, though. The way how AmigaOs (or rather Tripos) handles removable media is much simpler than it is on Linux. There, removable media detection and handling has to go through quite a stack of software layers, starting from udev up to the dbus-system and finally the desktop. Unix has no native concept of "removable devices" and hence has to go through hoops to get something like it (it is constructed as a server system, not as a user system, and you feel it). AmigaOs handles this quite nicely within the Os.

Also, directory access on Amiga can be transferred between physical devices. So for example,type in "list DF0:" on the shell, hold the output with ^S in the middle, then remove the disk, insert it into "DF1:" and continue listing from there. Do not try this with Linux or Windows.

The drawback is the complexity of implementing the required logic on the file-system basis. EXAMINE_NEXT (the corresponding command) is a horror for any author of a file handler, and it took years to get this done correctly in the Ram-Handler (or so I hope).

Also, the dos.library (aka Tripos) is (BPTRs apart) a nice "virtual file system" whereas on Linux, the file system is rather a subroutine call from a process perspective and isthere scheduled between processes, which requires an amount of overhead due to inter-process locking and communication. Writing *a simple* filing system on the Amiga is simpler as this type of process locking does not exist - there is a single process per file system. Unfortunately, it also means that writing a well-performing filing system is harder since it has to do all the threading itself. FFS does that, but is also notoriously hard to maintain.

Low-level primitives such as "message passing" are nice, but not quite on par with the requirements of today, namely isolation between processes. One would never do it this way today. It was simple, effective, but is also completely insecure.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on December 01, 2017, 03:42:37 PM
Quote from: kreciu;833670
It only shows that "Amiga Community" is like any community without it head/leadership-

Have you ever seen chicken "running" without head?

Hold on! Have you seen any leadership in Linux-land lately? It is "a new distribution every five months, but still no working printing system", essentially.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: wawrzon on December 01, 2017, 04:48:04 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833671
Low-level primitives such as "message passing" are nice, but not quite on par with the requirements of today, namely isolation between processes. One would never do it this way today. It was simple, effective, but is also completely insecure.


but this is, for better or worse, one of still unique characteristics of amiga system, change all that to whats considered modern, and youll get some kind of linux or similar.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: wawrzon on December 01, 2017, 04:51:06 PM
Quote from: kreciu;833670
Have you ever seen chicken "running" without head?


as thor writes, some chickens can run without a head for some while.
you might as well consider "democracy" a chicken without a head for the lack of strong leadership.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on December 01, 2017, 05:02:59 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;833674
as thor writes, some chickens can run without a head for some while.
you might as well consider "democracy" a chicken without a head for the lack of strong leadership.

Community selects leader that serves this community = democracy. The better leader, the better community (and opposite). Leader: General, Capitan, President, CEO, PI, Boss, Capitan Picard... having "bad/good" leadership will not equal - lack of it :).

Who is in charge of this what is happening with AmigaOS? I can't identify ONE person that is responsible for "direction" of development. What are GOALS in AmigaOS development? Did I missed something? Saying "it is a hobby" will simply create more and more dilutions of efforts. It is called entropy :).
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: kreciu on December 01, 2017, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833672
Hold on! Have you seen any leadership in Linux-land lately? It is "a new distribution every five months, but still no working printing system", essentially.


Yes, I just installed MacOS High Sierra and all my printers work, including that 20 years old.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: wawrzon on December 01, 2017, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: kreciu;833675
I can't identify ONE person that is responsible for "direction" of development.


if you refer to os4 as amigaos, then the responsible are the owners of hyperion entertainment.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: NorthWay on December 01, 2017, 06:47:28 PM
Quote from: sim085;833661
Is there any OS feature which is better in AmigaOS than in Linux or Unix?

I would nominate datatypes. The unix side lacks the whip swinger to introduce it at the higher ends of the display stack and make it standard - anything visual is contributed by so many parties. And don't forget all the other files types it handles which can be taken care of by non-display parts.
This is a whole-OS interface and your average unixen typically only extends to the kernel and possibly the display render/compose. You could expect Apple to be able to introduce an equivalent.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: polyp2000 on December 01, 2017, 07:14:59 PM
Quote from: NorthWay;833682
I would nominate datatypes. The unix side lacks the whip swinger to introduce it at the higher ends of the display stack and make it standard - anything visual is contributed by so many parties. And don't forget all the other files types it handles which can be taken care of by non-display parts.
This is a whole-OS interface and your average unixen typically only extends to the kernel and possibly the display render/compose. You could expect Apple to be able to introduce an equivalent.


This is very much a personal preference / viewpoint thing . From another angle it could be seen as a negative thing that AmigaOS has them so close to the display stack. I suspect if it was developed today that wouldnt be the case.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: number6 on December 01, 2017, 07:17:26 PM
Quote from: kreciu;833675
Community selects leader that serves this community = democracy. The better leader, the better community (and opposite). Leader: General, Capitan, President, CEO, PI, Boss, Capitan Picard... having "bad/good" leadership will not equal - lack of it :).

Who is in charge of this what is happening with AmigaOS? I can't identify ONE person that is responsible for "direction" of development. What are GOALS in AmigaOS development? Did I missed something? Saying "it is a hobby" will simply create more and more dilutions of efforts. It is called entropy :).


The last post I can locate from Hyperion Entertainment CVBA director Costel Mincea on AW:
Source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40882&forum=14&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#777586)
Title in sig still shows "AmigaOS4 development team member"

Whereas:
Source (http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2264)
Title in sig shows "AmigaOS Development Team Lead"

Hope that helps re:AmigaOS4.x

#6
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: guest11527 on December 01, 2017, 08:31:27 PM
Quote from: NorthWay;833682
I would nominate datatypes. The unix side lacks the whip swinger to introduce it at the higher ends of the display stack and make it standard - anything visual is contributed by so many parties.

Oh, there are certainly abstraction layers for such data types. Unfortunately - and this is a typical Linux thing - so many multiply different that solve so many multiply different problems that it is close to useless. There is some datatype system in the LibreOffice world. There is one in the Gnome world, and the gnome-streamer system, there is a mime-type system, that is - how typical - only used inconsistently, so you have one selection mechanism for the desktop, and another one in the browser.

That's the problem, everybody develops "the best plugin system", without looking left or right, re-inventing the wheel. Sounds familiar?
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: gregthecanuck on December 02, 2017, 12:42:28 AM
And let us not forget logical volumes!

Windows tried to do it with "libraries" but in true MS fashion made it complicated/unusable from command-line.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: BozzerBigD on December 02, 2017, 12:57:18 AM
Wow, multiple partition booting in MacOs is tedious! Bootcamp does not support more than one Mac partition separating into one Mac partition plus one Windows partition!!! If anything goes wrong with a multi-partition system created AFTER the Bootcamp set up then there is no way to get Bootcamp Assistant to aid in the Partition Table repair!! That really sucks. There are guides on the internet but hacking away at TestDisk PDisk and Gdisk to save your system and data is NOT fun! Plus the chances of destroying you partition table is VERY high if you decide to change the sizes of any partition even though in theory it's a supported feature! I hope the AmigaOS handles multi partition booting with Linux better than the Mac does with Windows :-( Plus Apple stops you installing Snow Leopard on a virtual machine by demanding you buy the £150+ server edition DVD rather than the standard 'client' version that came free with Macs from that era!!! Evil empire me thinks :-(
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: stefcep2 on December 02, 2017, 06:36:52 AM
Quote from: psxphill;833668


You'll always find examples like that. I knew someone who had been using a BBC micro for running a custom lighting rig for 30 years. Like the amiga running an air conditioner, it didn't really make much sense. You could use something more modern, more reliable, more supportable.


So what if its more "modern".  Do you need a more modern hammer?

The A2000 running the heating and cooling for 30 years.  Needed a scsi drive changed twice and they wore out a couple of mice.  The software was written in C by a student of the school with very little down time. Can't complain the reliability

To replace it the quote is $1.5 million to $2 million.  When asked why it hasn't been replace a spokesman said "because it just works".  I hear that said about Linux, but this time it really is true.
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: psxphill on December 02, 2017, 08:55:23 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833691
Unfortunately - and this is a typical Linux thing - so many multiply different that solve so many multiply different problems that it is close to useless.

Amiga datatypes have the same problem, as soon as you go out of their scope then you have to reinvent the wheel.

Quote from: stefcep2;833704
To replace it the quote is $1.5 million to $2 million.  When asked why it hasn't been replace a spokesman said "because it just works".  I hear that said about Linux, but this time it really is true.

"the computer and the associated system will be replaced at a cost of around $2 million"

It's the radio modems between the 19 sites that are the problem. According to the article it doesn't "just work" at all.

Quote
"Because they share the same frequency as our maintenance communications radios and operations maintenance radios - it depends on what we're doing - yes, they do interfere," Hopkins said.

If that happens, "we have to clear the radio and get everyone off of it for up to 15 minutes."

It would be possible to replace the modems with something like a raspberry pi which takes the data from the amiga and transmits the data over the internet instead, but then why do you need the amiga at all?

They are currently reliant on an ex pupil who set it up, that happens to still live in the area.

Without a breakdown of what they are going to spend the 2 million dollars on, it's hard to know whether it's value for money. The Amiga replaced an earlier computer, so it's very likely that a lot of the equipment is much older & also in need of replacement.

If a salesman comes in and says we can replace it all for 2 million dollars and we'll support it, or if you want to keep individual parts then you better write us a blank cheque and any problems will be on your own head then most people will pay the 2 million. The people making the decision are probably sick of the "sorry can't do any work, got to wait 15 minutes because of the air conditioning computer".
Title: Re: Request about OS Development
Post by: polyp2000 on December 03, 2017, 04:27:25 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;833662
as others said. amiga is good for what it does, because of legacy and backwards compatibility. and it applies to vampire/apolloas much if not more then to the other options.

now, throw out shared memory space and messaging by pointers in order to get some memory protection..

throw out amiga os legacy balast for contemporary features, you will lose that compatibility and will get some sort of linux distribution. already enough genuinely missing components of amiga os, such as networking are just ports from other systems, for instance bsd. i cant imagine a realistic way to achieve a new "amiga os" other than simply putting together a choice of existing open source software. btw, it will become as bloated according to the features you expect. there are poeople that complain aros takes 10mb disk space (without fonts) and doesnt run on bare 68000, you know?

considering above, there are the vlid options:

1. stay with what you have or follow the consevative improvement patch based on ganuine sources, as proposed by thor and olsen.

2. design an open os as compatible with the genuine and incorporating as much modern features as possible, which is aros.

all else is insane.


Amen to this!