Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Desktop Audio and Video => Topic started by: orb85750 on December 10, 2008, 06:50:11 PM
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Is some manifestation(s) of Amiga capable of modern, pro-quality video production, say from straight
documentary production all the way up to art film with specialized effects, etc. (Wasn't Amiga the original artists' computer?) What hardware/OS and specific software is available?
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In the 90's Video Toaster made quite a splash in production as a very affordable editing system.
However... Modern in the 90's... not modern 'today'.
Nowadays putting one together would be quite expensive and underpowered compared to other alternatives.
If you want to play with such a system just to capture the nostalgia... to see what you can do with an older system (I'm guilty of that myself programming a classic in 68k when I could do things faster and better in flash) then more power to you! Enjoy!
If you're looking to actually do professional work in the industry - your dollars are better spent elsewhere.
(I expect a fair amount of flak for saying that - but it's the truth - based on using various systems in professional video and film production for the last 15 years).
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The original Classic Casablanca is a non-linear video editor based on the Amiga.
I used (still have it but don't use it much nowadays) it up until a few years ago when I moved over to DVCAM filming. I now use my PC as my editor and DVD writer.
Hence my handle on the various boards :-)
Dave G 8-)
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(http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/laughing22.gif)(http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/laughing7.gif)
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>>>>>>Nowadays putting one together would be quite expensive and underpowered compared to other alternatives.>>>>>>
Can you elaborate a bit on what is available, if one does not mind spending the extra money, due to my aspirations for Amiga loyalty? Thanks.
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how do you want me to elaborate?
The video toaster at its base level is an A/B roll mixer pretty much... requiring now archaic hardware to use - and at the end of the day you're going to be slaved to decks with a bunch of outdated wipe and mix effects.
Todays systems are faster, cheaper, more reliable, easier to use, and afford many more options in the way of effects, color correction, and compositing capabilities.
You could spend even more money for the flyer and get rudimentary non-linear capabilities.. but again - slow, outdated, and will cost you even more when the near 20yr hardware fails.
Forget about HD or non standard formats.
Forget about any of the advantages to new technology used by things like XD cam (where I treat the deck itself like a harddrive and bypass digitizing all together)
Forget about using firewire too...
Forget about doing any kind of modern compositing effects - that have been made trivial to todays editors with programs like after effects.
Not to mention storage... being slaved to old small drives slung in a tower case when you could get many many many times the storage capacity for your projects much much cheaper today.
I mean if you want to tinker around with home vids - more power to you, but professional..... Forget it.
A handful of years ago I'd have suggested the toaster as a cheap alternative if you wanted to do live switching.. but I can't even do that anymore with switching boards going as low as 500 that work with modern systems..
as for whats available - fire up google and type 'video editing'
theres everything from low end software for small PC's from Avid, Adobe and others, all the way up to high end Avid and Final Cut systems.
There's too many available for such a wide range of prices-power-needs to list.
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If you can locate a complete toaster/flyer/ImageFX/camera/deck setup for cheap, go for it. It'll have a nostalgia factor and you have basic capabilities for video production.
As much as I wanted to go that route, I've had to go with PC/Pinnacle Studio12 (or Win Movie Maker)/cheap digital camera to produce hobby videos for YouTube.
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OK, so there is no digital option of any kind available for any kind of Amiga-compatible set-up? Is that correct? Thanks.
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orb85750 wrote:
OK, so there is no digital option of any kind available for any kind of Amiga-compatible set-up? Is that correct? Thanks.
The Amiga predates the digital world.
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bloodline wrote:
orb85750 wrote:
OK, so there is no digital option of any kind available for any kind of Amiga-compatible set-up? Is that correct? Thanks.
The Amiga predates the digital world.
Right, but just wondering if *anything*
has become available in terms of digital
video for Amiga (even public domain) since
the good ole days.
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orb85750 wrote:
bloodline wrote:
orb85750 wrote:
OK, so there is no digital option of any kind available for any kind of Amiga-compatible set-up? Is that correct? Thanks.
The Amiga predates the digital world.
Right, but just wondering if *anything*
has become available in terms of digital
video for Amiga (even public domain) since
the good ole days.
Digital Video work requires Hispeed Harddrives, Powerful CPUs and 32bit GFX all of which never made it to the Amiga.
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@orb85750
Right, but just wondering if *anything* has become available in terms of digital video for Amiga (even public domain) since the good ole days.
No
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The commercial tapes for the VT say something about attaching a couple of VCR's as part of putting your television studio together. VT was invented to handle real-time whatnots, and nobody was doing non-linear until the Flyer came around. I'd say that the Video Toaster will be still useful as a broadcast quality switcher/real-time editing thingamabob until the current standard definition video becomes obsolete.
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weirdami wrote:
The commercial tapes for the VT say something about attaching a couple of VCR's as part of putting your television studio together. VT was invented to handle real-time whatnots, and nobody was doing non-linear until the Flyer came around. I'd say that the Video Toaster will be still useful as a broadcast quality switcher/real-time editing thingamabob until the current standard definition video becomes obsolete.
The VT and subsequent Flyer were very instrumental in bring the power of video editing to new levels of functionality and affordability, and nothing is ever going to change it's place in history
...however I do feel compelled to dispute some of the mis-information that appears at A.org with some regularity.
The first TRUE non linear editor was the CMX 600 in 1971..
although nowhere near as functional as what would follow it - it does have the distinction of being first.
LucasFilms Editdroid did come closer - in the early 80's
Quantel took it further around 1985 with a video effects editor
In 1989, however, the EMC2 and the Avid/1 (the first in the Media Composer line) were released.. it would be hard to dispute these as non-linear editing systems by todays standards.
This was before the Toaster came out (1990) - let alone the Flyer that would bring non linear editing to it.
Further - Adobe Premier was released in 1991 (although the initial version was far from useful...)
If someone already HAD one - I'd say sure, great cheap garage solution for switching.. maybe doing some editing... however, I couldn't (and wouldn't) recommend anyone wanting to buy or build a system going anywhere near the hardware.
It would be a very very poor choice and they'd end up wasting time and money.
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Who ever said that VT was the first non-linear editor?
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Well you're saying that noone was was editing non-linear until Flyer...
Which taken one way is of course absolutely false...
and giving the benefit of the doubt and taking the other way implies you thought flyer was the first.
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The Draco and the DracoVision had an optional DV card. It converted DV to Draco's own format, which is a very high quality version of motion JPEG. This is all in the digitla domain. It's said that some small loss of quality occurred when converting between the 2 codecs though...
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The Draco video workstations used the MacroSystem VLab Motion card, a non-linear broadcast quality video editing card. They were a Zorro II card, and when combined with a Toccata sound card, a 030-060, RTG card and a fast SCSI (or something more modern perhaps) hard drive, they're a brilliant little video editing system. Editing video on the fly is instant, the only processing time is when it needs to render the wipes and other special effects. They handled MPEG and Motion-JPEG, but I guess the max resolution they can do is PAL and NTSC video res, so for editing DVDs they'd be fine, but for anything HD you'd be out of luck.
I used a VLab Motion Amiga system many times in the past as well as many earlier PC and Mac editing systems and the Amiga was a dream compared to those systems. Times have changed though, sure, but for its day it was the best. The VLab also connects directly to the Video Toaster, and ran this awesome software called Movie Shop.
For more information, check this link - http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=303
I'll tell you what, it sure impressed all the other kids in high school when they were presenting their assignments on big bits of cardboard, or a speach, or a slide projector if they knew how, and I was bringing in fully digitally edited videos with special effects, wipes, titles, animations, 3D landscape fly-throughs, and all those other cool things that were so simple to do on an Amiga.
My friend who owned the Amiga with the VLab edited several videos professionally, including some surfing videos (I can still buy some of these on DVD in the shops now), TV ads and educational videos for kids.
I'm hoping somehow we get some new video editing software for AmigaOS4, maybe a new version of Movie Shop or something ported from another system, as long as they support whatever modern cards are out there that can be plugged in.
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I just thought I might add, one of the cheapest, easiest and most fun things you can do with an Amiga and video is to get a Genlock and play around with it. Plug a video camera into the Genlock, the Genlock into the Amiga and overlay some graphics over the video signal, output it to a TV or monitor.
Kids love it, they can look straight at the screen and paint on their face with a paint program. You can play animations over video, like an animation of some fire burning at the bottom or around the edges of the screen, and anyone who looks at the screen sees their face in the middle of the flames (a trick I set up in the window on Halloween). One time I made a DOOM-style panel and gun, placed them at the bottom of the screen and genlocked a video I took walking through my house, my friends thought it was cool at the time. And of course, there are HEAPS of video titling programs out there for overlaying animated, scrolling, bouncing, 3D titles with all sorts of effects.
Genlocks go pretty cheap on eBay these days too.
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Thanks Rebel! Very much appreciated. I'm totally new to the video hobby idea (as you probably can tell by my questions), so I want/need to read more about what is possible on an Amiga. And, yes, hopefully something new will come along for use with OS4.x or MOS. -Dave
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sigh... I wish I could say that a Toaster/Flyer set-up could take care of pro video production today... but it's a lot of hassle, and time to do it on an Amiga. It's sad, really, the Amiga used to rule desktop video, in fact, it practically invented the term... But the sad fact is, it's cheaper and easier to do it with other platforms. The Flyer internally could handle up to D2 quality, VTU mag. mentioned a 'promised' update to the Flyer software that would allow D2 quality recording, that would've handled HD, and them some ... :cry:
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Shouldn't an AmigaOne or a Sam be able to manage modern video editing?
Varthall
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i had a digital broadcaster32 non-linear edit card.
this monster cost £12,000 new, and i got it, an AD516, and an opal vision card for a tenth of that. and was capable of standard definition recording/playback, from component, s/vhs, and betacam S/P. both PAL and NTSC.
you needed a seperate sound card to use it tho, ok, so i had an AD516, and could use the SMPTE timecoding with movieshop, but i wanted a SoundStage, as the soundstage had DSP chips that could help accelerate the FX rendering/character generation, not to mention handle alot more than 8 channels of 20bit audio.
could also attach timebase correctors and comb filters needed for pre-digital video sources.
why did i sell it? why why why :headwall:
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Interesting read about Amiga & video etc:
http://tech-head.com/amiga2.htm
bounties and news about getting Amiga video editing going again:
http://www.discreetfx.com/press.html
and for example:
Chicago, Illinois – November 30th, 2007
Now that Amiga OS 4.0 is available for Classic Amiga, Visual FX company DiscreetFX LLC Inc., is willing to work with select members of the Amiga OS 4.0 development team to insure future compatibility with the Video Toaster 4000 card. This includes free Video Toaster 4000 cards to members of the team that have Amiga 4000/T computers running Amiga OS 4.0 and have an available video slot.
DiscreetFX's CEO stated:
"It's great news that Amiga OS 4.0 is now available for Classic Amiga's with PPC cards. What would be even more exciting is if the Amiga Video Toaster 4000 also worked on OS 4.0." The time is at hand for the Amiga to reemerge as a video editing/desktop video platform. The release of the Amiga Video Toaster source code was step one. Amiga OS 4.0 for Classic Amiga was step two. Now lets go on to step three."
and I think there has been digital video editor under development for MOS, but I did not spot any link to that now ...
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Varthall wrote:
Shouldn't an AmigaOne or a Sam be able to manage modern video editing?
Varthall
A more appropriate question would be 'Is anyone going to program a modern video editing system for the AmigaOne or Sam'
I've used Avid Media Composer on a Mac G3 doing News Promo's and a 1 hour weekly real estate show several years ago - so you could say it *COULD* be done.
Will it though? That's another question entirely.
For the amount of work that would be required to go into it, it would have to be commerciallly viable - which means competing with products available today.
Not easy, but not impossible.. Final Cut has been able to do this. Not too many years ago it wasn't taken very seriously at all - a lot of places I've worked with and for considered it a 'toy' for home use only. This year we have replaced 3 out of 4 edit bays with Final Cut Pro.
Mind you that would involve looking at what is available, and improving on it. Again this isn't impossible. Avid had the foresight to design its interface around people who actually edit - which although not immediately intuitive, once you actually do the work is a joy to use - hotkeys are placed logically in groups based on frequency of use in actual editing.. they understood that your one hand will leave the keyboard to use the mouse and other such things.
Final Cut is more designed by programmers - my hands 'cross over' - things that can slow you down..
On the flipside Final Cut is a dream to work with when going back and forth between things such as photoshop and after effects. it's clip manipulation on the timeline I think is better and easier to use as well.
If a new program were to be made, its designers would do well to find these things that seem to work well on one system or another system and bring these features together.
This being said, there seems to be a near bullish resistance to change when it comes to the Amiga nowadays, and if the solution were simply a rebadged and tooled toaster - it would be doomed to failure - NOBODY wants to go back to the 'bad old days' of scopes and mixers. The paradigm has changed....for the better.
In fact my boss came to me several months ago, knowing I was a Amiga enthusiast from the old days and put it to me 'Could you imagine still using Video Toaster for this?'
My reply was 'If you ever made me - I'd slit my wrists and bleed out on the edit bay floor'.
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@Rebel-CD32
That's not correct. The Draco used the Draco Motion card, check on amiga-hardware for Draco and DracoVision. The Draco motion was an updated version of the VLabMotion for the Draco bus with added capabilities and faster throughput.
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Sig999 wrote:
Well you're saying that noone was was editing non-linear until Flyer...
Which taken one way is of course absolutely false...
and giving the benefit of the doubt and taking the other way implies you thought flyer was the first.
I guess context means nothing these days. :roll:
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weirdami wrote:
Sig999 wrote:
Well you're saying that noone was was editing non-linear until Flyer...
Which taken one way is of course absolutely false...
and giving the benefit of the doubt and taking the other way implies you thought flyer was the first.
I guess context means nothing these days. :roll:
Ok, so the former then I take it?
In context.... your statement is false. From right after you mentioned hooking decks up to the end.
That makes it much simpler.
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@orb85750
Don't listen to some of these People.
The Amiga can do 480i 1440 x 480 (its called Super HiRes mode)
Just put it in Overscan
But this mode is best suited for Slide SHows and Overlaying Graphics, lower Thirds and animated logos over Video with a Genlock.
Listen Carefully: Get SCALA MM300, 400, or InfoChannel 500 and a SuperGen SX genlock and a CHROMAKEY PLUS if you can get it.
All Cheap. You will be amazed! and YES you can do DIGITAL Video (Not internally) but externally with Amiga Hardware and a 3CCD Digital8 or MiniDV Camera that has S-Video input.
this allows you to professionally record Amiga's output as well as the Video that is being Genlocked onto professionally in Digital Format. You can then Edit it further if you like with iMovie. (I try to d everything on the fly in Amiga)
@bloodline
quote:
Digital Video work requires Hispeed Harddrives, Powerful CPUs and 32bit GFX all of which never made it to the Amiga.
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Wrong.... Digital Video only requires a Digital Recording Device... both for genlocking and Recording a Master of all Amiga's output.......it doesnt have to be an INTERNAL Harddrive in the Amiga...it cna instead be external like a DV Camera or Deck with S-Video inputs.
@orb85750
Look at this Video I did with an Amiga 1200 with Genlock, ChromaKey, SCALA MM300, and Converted www.digitaljuice.com bakgrounds. The Dancers I hired. No Special Video Card....just an A1200 with a Blizzard 1240 and 128mb RAM (will work the same with 16mb)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hEbs6FX0cM
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"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hEbs6FX0cM"
hi!
i cant download the video nor with getvideo (Sorry can't get expected data.) nor with tubexx (it finds the video by url but unable to download and play it). i even search for your username also for the video name but no hit.
please, i really wanna see this video!
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it should be working....it works for me....just play it right on YouTube
anyways i prefer you Don't download it, as the dancers didnt want this up on YouTube.
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KimmoK wrote:
Interesting read about Amiga & video etc:
http://tech-head.com/amiga2.htm ...
Thanks, although we all need to take time out to
laugh at this quote from tech-head:
"Amiga Inc is on the right track and is moving the Amiga forward once again to the forefront of computing."
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leirbag28 wrote:
it should be working....it works for me....just play it right on YouTube
anyways i prefer you Don't download it, as the dancers didnt want this up on YouTube.
But screw them, you're going to show off anyway, right?
Nice.
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leirbag28 wrote:
@orb85750
Don't listen to some of these People.
The Amiga can do 480i 1440 x 480 (its called Super HiRes mode)
Just put it in Overscan
But this mode is best suited for Slide SHows and Overlaying Graphics, lower Thirds and animated logos over Video with a Genlock.
Listen Carefully: Get SCALA MM300, 400, or InfoChannel 500 and a SuperGen SX genlock and a CHROMAKEY PLUS if you can get it.
All Cheap. You will be amazed! and YES you can do DIGITAL Video (Not internally) but externally with Amiga Hardware and a 3CCD Digital8 or MiniDV Camera that has S-Video input.
this allows you to professionally record Amiga's output as well as the Video that is being Genlocked onto professionally in Digital Format. You can then Edit it further if you like with iMovie. (I try to d everything on the fly in Amiga)
@bloodline
quote:
Digital Video work requires Hispeed Harddrives, Powerful CPUs and 32bit GFX all of which never made it to the Amiga.
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Wrong.... Digital Video only requires a Digital Recording Device... both for genlocking and Recording a Master of all Amiga's output.......it doesnt have to be an INTERNAL Harddrive in the Amiga...it cna instead be external like a DV Camera or Deck with S-Video inputs.
@orb85750
Look at this Video I did with an Amiga 1200 with Genlock, ChromaKey, SCALA MM300, and Converted www.digitaljuice.com bakgrounds. The Dancers I hired. No Special Video Card....just an A1200 with a Blizzard 1240 and 128mb RAM (will work the same with 16mb)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hEbs6FX0cM
Very Nice. Goes to show that often its lack of talent and creativity thats the limiting factor, not necessarily the hardware or software you use. So what exactly was done on the A1200? I'm assuming the background moving images were, but what software did you use to animate the bacgrounds?
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Sig999 wrote:
Varthall wrote:
Shouldn't an AmigaOne or a Sam be able to manage modern video editing?
Varthall
A more appropriate question would be 'Is anyone going to program a modern video editing system for the AmigaOne or Sam'
Yes, I am. Unfortunately I have other things to do first, so it's going to take a while.
Hans
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@stefcep2
Quote:
Very Nice. Goes to show that often its lack of talent and creativity thats the limiting factor, not necessarily the hardware or software you use. So what exactly was done on the A1200? I'm assuming the background moving images were, but what software did you use to animate the bacgrounds?
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The Animated backgrounds are Running in SCALA MM300 in Anim8L format and HAM8. They were NOT created on the Amiga.... But I do hae other backgrounds they were in some of my videos. The ones in that video I purchased from www.digitaljuice.com <-----highly recommended. They Started in the industry by Creating Toaster Flyer Motion backgrounds. They still support the Toaster Flyer is some ways.
THe video was done with Dancers dancing infront of a Bluescreen........then the Amiga's ChromaKey Plus, and Supergen SX can add aany Amiga Graphic behind the dancers and whereever there is the Color Blue on the screen. This is done instantly and live and recorded to DVD on the Fly or DV and then transfered to DVD via FireWire (My Standalone DVD recorder has FireWire input.
I worked at a Club as a VJ (Video Jockey) using my CD32/SX32 Pro at the time, throwing up and mixing visuals live on the projector screens for 4 hours straight non stop! gotta have a darn lot of content. But luckily I have the SUPER rare MindEYE for the Amiga. Generates Visuals on the fly (kinda like WinAMP or iTunes Visualizer but more 8-bit looking). Elan Performer and SCALA is what I mostly used to throw Visuals up Quickly.
Elan Performer was Amiga's Motion Dive Tokyo in the 80's.
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Great stuff, very impressive. Needless to say, Amiga isn't so useless for video after all!
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Jose wrote:
@Rebel-CD32
That's not correct. The Draco used the Draco Motion card, check on amiga-hardware for Draco and DracoVision. The Draco motion was an updated version of the VLabMotion for the Draco bus with added capabilities and faster throughput.
I was waiting for someone to be anal about this. It's practically the same card, just changed a slight bit. I just didn't feel like elaborating at the time.
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stefcep2 wrote:
leirbag28 wrote:
@orb85750
Don't listen to some of these People.
The Amiga can do 480i 1440 x 480 (its called Super HiRes mode)
Just put it in Overscan
But this mode is best suited for Slide SHows and Overlaying Graphics, lower Thirds and animated logos over Video with a Genlock.
Listen Carefully: Get SCALA MM300, 400, or InfoChannel 500 and a SuperGen SX genlock and a CHROMAKEY PLUS if you can get it.
All Cheap. You will be amazed! and YES you can do DIGITAL Video (Not internally) but externally with Amiga Hardware and a 3CCD Digital8 or MiniDV Camera that has S-Video input.
this allows you to professionally record Amiga's output as well as the Video that is being Genlocked onto professionally in Digital Format. You can then Edit it further if you like with iMovie. (I try to d everything on the fly in Amiga)
@bloodline
quote:
Digital Video work requires Hispeed Harddrives, Powerful CPUs and 32bit GFX all of which never made it to the Amiga.
------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong.... Digital Video only requires a Digital Recording Device... both for genlocking and Recording a Master of all Amiga's output.......it doesnt have to be an INTERNAL Harddrive in the Amiga...it cna instead be external like a DV Camera or Deck with S-Video inputs.
@orb85750
Look at this Video I did with an Amiga 1200 with Genlock, ChromaKey, SCALA MM300, and Converted www.digitaljuice.com bakgrounds. The Dancers I hired. No Special Video Card....just an A1200 with a Blizzard 1240 and 128mb RAM (will work the same with 16mb)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hEbs6FX0cM
Very Nice. Goes to show that often its lack of talent and creativity thats the limiting factor, not necessarily the hardware or software you use. So what exactly was done on the A1200? I'm assuming the background moving images were, but what software did you use to animate the bacgrounds?
Alternatively - because all the stuff from digital juice has alpha channels imbedded in their graphics (I use them too) - you can just do the whole thing in your editing software (even avid dv can do this) - its like including the amiga in the loop serves only to slow down the workflow and add a level of unneeded complexity.
But hey - if thats what floats your boat, all well and good... I'd hardly call it 'professional'.
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Assuming I can get my hands on a decent non-linear digitizer card for a classic OCS machine, what is the most flexible editing software available? Are there a few strong options?
I presume that I may also need a new accelerator card for a stock A2500? (I also own a stock A1200 -- not in towerized form.) Thanks, -Dave
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There are excellent open source tools out there that could be ported to AmigaDos 4.1 or MOS
Kino (http://www.kinodv.org/)
Cinelerra (http://cvs.cinelerra.org/)
DVD Styler (http://www.dvdstyler.de/)
It's almost as good as Mac and PC stuff and it's free and open source...
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persia wrote:
There are excellent open source tools out there that could be ported to AmigaDos 4.1 or MOS
Kino (http://www.kinodv.org/)
Cinelerra (http://cvs.cinelerra.org/)
DVD Styler (http://www.dvdstyler.de/)
It's almost as good as Mac and PC stuff and it's free and open source...
Exactly how good are they? A few years ago I went ahead and tried every open-source video editor that I could find. Kino and Cinelera couldn't even open my video files that I had (they were DV format only). Jahshaka crashed every other minute and had the most disorganized GUI that I have ever seen. They were all so unusable that I ended up using Windows Movie Maker and an old copy of Cyberlink Power DVD for the project I had at the time. After that I bought Premiere Elements.
Things may have changed, but I didn't see a single editor that I thought was worth using as a basis for anything.
Hans
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Here (http://www.linux.com/feature/131342) is a link about the state of Linux video processing.
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persia wrote:
Here (http://www.linux.com/feature/131342) is a link about the state of Linux video processing.
Nice article - pretty objective.
I remember trying out a demo version of Main Actor on linux years ago - and it was quite polished.. shame they stopped working on it.
I remember reading somewhere that originally it was being developed on the Amiga before Linux - but I've never seen even a demo so I cant substantiate it.
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The Toaster 4000 Flyer combo isn't as outdated as you might think. At least for SD video. You would be hard pressed to find a real time switcher and composite system on the Mac or PC under $5000. I use Pinnacle System's Studio 9 Plus on my Windows XP system, which is certainly good but every thing has to be rendered. Most videos don't need a lot fancy transitions and layers anyway.
However you could add updated effects or create your own to spice things up using Lightwave 3D or Image FX etc. If you already have a big box Amiga you could now get A Toaster and Flyer boards for probably less than $250 now. In some cases less than $200. I paid only $60 for Video Toaster 4000.
Finally with digital DVD recorders and other digital equipment I don't think you really need to rely on Time base correctors to sync your video sources anymore. :-D
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You don't find analogue sources very much anymore but yes the Toaster still allows you to mix analogue video. Of course it's 4x3 and all video nowadays is 16x9.
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Hans_ wrote:
Exactly how good are they? A few years ago I went ahead and tried every open-source video editor that I could find. Kino and Cinelera couldn't even open my video files that I had (they were DV format only). Jahshaka crashed every other minute and had the most disorganized GUI that I have ever seen. They were all so unusable that I ended up using Windows Movie Maker and an old copy of Cyberlink Power DVD for the project I had at the time. After that I bought Premiere Elements.
Things may have changed, but I didn't see a single editor that I thought was worth using as a basis for anything.
I have used Open Movie Editor on Linux, it has some drawbacks but otherwise it's a solid and well working editor. I have started to port on OS4 the dependencies it requires (libsamplerate (http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=development/library/audio/libsamplerate.lha) is the first I have ported, I'll recompile it as a shared object now that the new SDK is out), and later will try to port the application itself. The GUI uses FLTK, we already have an old port of it but all the ports of FLTK apps I have tried don't work, I have the sources from the original porter and I will try to fix it as well. I haven't set any release date yet, as this port is still in its early stages.
Varthall
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I am using Kino from time to time (on FreeBSD and Ubuntu) and am quite happy with it. The major drawback IMHO is that it doesn't have any timeline system which makes overdubbing the audio a real adventure. The website claimed that some TV stations use it for preproduction so it can't be that bad.
@Varthall: Open movie editor looks awesome, gotta try that one on my BSD box. I'm really looking forward to your port. Oh, and forgive me for asking, but maybe you can try to compile it for AROS aswell? ;-)
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Colani1200 wrote:
@Varthall: Open movie editor looks awesome, gotta try that one on my BSD box. I'm really looking forward to your port. Oh, and forgive me for asking, but maybe you can try to compile it for AROS aswell? ;-)
Not for now, unfortunately, because of my limited time I can only focus on one platform, and besides this project is a pretty demanding one :)
Varthall
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Hmm Open Movie Editor does look interesting. Wonder how it compares to Final Cut?
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Sig999 wrote:
... It would be a very very poor choice and they'd end up wasting time and money.
Well, I suppose I made those poor choices and am wasting time and money, but I sure am having a blast doing it!
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Do you want and need very cool video editing software for Amiga OS 4.1, MorphOS 2.2 & AROS? Why not just remove hardware dependencies from the software at the following link?
www.openvideotoaster.org
The GUI, feature set and ease of use are still awesome even after all these years. This is one very good video editing system with CG, Paint, Editing & Effects. And the code is already Amiga code.
FYI
We are now making the full ISO file available to any Amiga programmer that asks for it via FTP. This was not done before.
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@Sig999
Don't forget the Flyer card for the Amiga Video Toaster. Then decks are no longer needed and the dream of real time tapeless editing is at hand on Amiga OS.
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I sure someone takes up this offer. Better than porting open source stuff, this at least was professional and can be improved again. But then again porting may seem less work ???
I still think this would have to be a commercially viable thing.
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persia wrote:
You don't find analogue sources very much anymore but yes the Toaster still allows you to mix analogue video. Of course it's 4x3 and all video nowadays is 16x9.
Again with using DVD recorders, you don't need rely on analog devices as long as you can connect with composite cables. Many DVD recorders have Fire wire and one button recording so it is easy to transfer your digital video to DVD. Then into the Toaster/Flyer, as for the 16x9 ratio I believe there is a simple way to adjust the resolution for that. Also the video could be used online in the 4x3, many online videos are no more than 320x240. :-)
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Are the toaster/flyer manuals available somewhere online? Available anywhere in hardcopy form?
Pyromania wrote:
@Sig999
Don't forget the Flyer card for the Amiga Video Toaster. Then decks are no longer needed and the dream of real time tapeless editing is at hand on Amiga OS.
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Also to reinforce what Pyromania said, the Flyer is a high quality non-linear editor part. It bypasses the Amiga mb buss and plugs directly into it's own dedicated SCSI-2 drives, and of course into the Toaster. :-D
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orb85750 wrote:
Are the toaster/flyer manuals available somewhere online? Available anywhere in hardcopy form?
Good question, I need to get a Flyer manual.
Here is a link to Newteks Amiga/Toaster forum http://www.newtek.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47
:-)
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I am sorry, but DVD crecorders is so yesteryear :)
USe HD or Blueray.. you can have much better quality and store much bigger movies...
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In theory:
Could it be possible to do SW emulation of Video Toaster Flyer HW, so that Video Toaster Flyer SW could be used on PPC Amigas?
In real life:
How huge task it would be? :-? :crazy: :-?
AND THE NEXT STEP:
How big task it would be to redirect/route VTF Zorro I/O over ethernet, so that VTF-HW could be on some other "Amiga" or done by SW emulation on another x86 computer.
AND PERHAPS:
Re-implement the VTF HW in FPGA?
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True 320x240 is the resolution of a typical phone or web broadcast, but it would look pretty bad on your 1080 TV.
Also analogue video has a bit of a mushy look compared with the clean signal of digital.
So the question is, is it harder to port a modern video editor (Open Movie Producer) to the various Amiga platforms (AROS, OS4.1 Pegasos) or to take an already Amiga program, make it work on modern Amiga platforms and add modern video features?
AmigaPixel wrote:
persia wrote:
You don't find analogue sources very much anymore but yes the Toaster still allows you to mix analogue video. Of course it's 4x3 and all video nowadays is 16x9.
Again with using DVD recorders, you don't need rely on analog devices as long as you can connect with composite cables. Many DVD recorders have Fire wire and one button recording so it is easy to transfer your digital video to DVD. Then into the Toaster/Flyer, as for the 16x9 ratio I believe there is a simple way to adjust the resolution for that. Also the video could be used online in the 4x3, many online videos are no more than 320x240. :-)
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@orb85750
Sadly no one has spent the money or time to convert the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer manuals into PDF's.
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Pyromania wrote:
@orb85750
Sadly no one has spent the money or time to convert the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer manuals into PDF's.
In the absence of a manual, are there any decent resources for learning how to use it? Thanks.
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To be honest, the only thing that amiga does and does well (even today) is live graphics over video. Something like an SD realtime (live) titler, except you can add as many graphics as you want.
So, if you are intrested in that, get a A1200, 4MB RAM, an HD, ScalaMM400 and a Neriki or G2 component genlock and you are ready :-P
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yssing wrote:
I am sorry, but DVD crecorders is so yesteryear :)
USe HD or Blueray.. you can have much better quality and store much bigger movies...
Huh? I don't know who you are, but you ain't Steve Spielberg :)
VideoCD - maybe not all the resolution you want, but all the resolution you NEED!! :-D
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(http://www.militarysos.com/forum/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif)
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persia wrote:
True 320x240 is the resolution of a typical phone or web broadcast, but it would look pretty bad on your 1080 TV.
Also analogue video has a bit of a mushy look compared with the clean signal of digital.
I have been told by Toaster/Flyer users that as long as you have a good DV source it scales up very nicely on a HDTV. The Toaster uses 752x480 with overscan.
Obviously if you want to work with pure digital and HD video, then currently the Mac and pc are the only way to go until some one ports the software over to OS4.1. I was hoping that If OS 4.1 and the Sam 440ep start selling more, even as a nich market that Newtek would port over the new VT5 to Amiga OS. Or allow a third party to do it. It doesn't seem like it would be to hard for a skilled programmer, especially since the new Amiga hardware has PCI slots. Speed Edit alone would be a prize on the Amiga, it is resolution independent. :-D
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And I should be able to plug a 12 cylinder engine into a mini cooper and race it in Formula One. After all it is a car.
A port of Open Video Editor would be a thousand times more useful than VT5. How many people want to edit live video streams? What would be useful is the ability to edit digital video sources, the TV is digital, all my cameras are digital, I only have DVDs, I haven't seen a VHS tape is so long I doubt I would recognise it if I did. AND the internet id full of digital video.
We're 20 years on from the age of Amiga and NewTek. The computer market has changed and with it NewTek's market.
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persia wrote:
And I should be able to plug a 12 cylinder engine into a mini cooper and race it in Formula One. After all it is a car.
A port of Open Video Editor would be a thousand times more useful than VT5. How many people want to edit live video streams? What would be useful is the ability to edit digital video sources, the TV is digital, all my cameras are digital, I only have DVDs, I haven't seen a VHS tape is so long I doubt I would recognise it if I did. AND the internet id full of digital video.
We're 20 years on from the age of Amiga and NewTek. The computer market has changed and with it NewTek's market.
I wonder where the driver would sit? :-D
Indeed your are right though it has changed. Newtek has done well to keep up with and even advance the digital video market on the PC platform. The beauty of The VT both past and present is that it could serve different needs. Many never even really use the live switching and streaming, but instead use it for post production editing and special effects. While others , mostly television studios use it for either or both. The Tonight Show used it for years. The advantage over other software only solutions is the complete integrated suite of tools including Lightwave 3D and the possible direct hardware connections. The new VT has digital as well as analog switchers. Again your right it probably is a lot more than most would need.
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I am pretty happy with Pinnacle systems Studio 9 Plus and look forward to getting Studio 12 Plus. But if I had the money for toys I would get a VT5.
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Pyromania wrote:
@Sig999
Don't forget the Flyer card for the Amiga Video Toaster. Then decks are no longer needed and the dream of real time tapeless editing is at hand on Amiga OS.
That 'dream' has been my reality for over a decade.. and standard practice on any modern system. I think the money and time spent tracking one down isn't worth it, for something that is considered standard in this day and age.
Especially considering the topic of this thread.. PRO video production. Now with things going over to HD, doubly so - money and time better invested in a FCP system with a KONA card if you ask me.
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hardlink wrote:
Sig999 wrote:
... It would be a very very poor choice and they'd end up wasting time and money.
Well, I suppose I made those poor choices and am wasting time and money, but I sure am having a blast doing it!
And more power to you - however I'm sticking to the topic of the thread 'PRO VIDEO PRODUCTION'.
I mess around programming in asm on my Ami 2000 constantly - but I'd never put it down as 'Professional Programming' anymore.. 20 years ago sure!, now, no.
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Sig999
If you love ASM programming why not take a peak at the ASM parts of the Open Video Toaster code?