Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: on January 11, 2005, 08:12:20 PM
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I know this is sacriledge, but if it looks as cool as the image seen on this page (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000590026982/), I will be buying one ASAP.
It will be $499 with a 1.25GHz G4 processor and 40GB hard drive, and $599 with a 1.42GHz CPU and an 80GB drive.
looks like EVERYONE was right about the price. If Hyperion or the MorphOS guys want to survive, they'd better get on board..
Wayne
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Take a look here too..
http://www.apple.com/macmini/
http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
Another thing that threathens my A1 purchase.. :D
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It looks so cool.
Definitely, a great looking system for anyone that's interested in giving Mac a try.
EDIT:
I agree that OS4.0 ported to this little baby would be soooo sweet.
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That looks awesome.
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This is the fist time I've ever thought a Mac was cool... this IS cool!!!
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As both an Amiga user and a Mac user, I must say that I like Apple's products. They got some sort of Amiga feel over them (although some people sees them as the enemy, but any company that produces a great, working OS with Workbench references looks good in my eyes.)
So if anyone is considering getting a easy-to-use computer for their parents or relatives or themselves (nah, we love our Amigas. :)) that has to have programs of modern standard, try this one out.
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I know this is sacriledge, but if it looks as cool as the image seen on this page, I will be buying one ASAP.
So... Guess it's time for www.maciga.org ? :-D
At any rate, see here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9653&forum=17) ,hardly sacriledge.. :-)
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If there's any chance AROS is ported to this, I'll get one. Heck - if Hyperion ports OS4 to the Mac I'll pay $150 easily.
The BFTB is so much better than A1 or Pegasos, it looks pretty much like a waste of time to develop the hardware...
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OK 1 problem how can you sell it new without a mouse or keyboard???? Give me a break
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It's definitely a nice looking box, however, other than RAM, hard drive, and networking related options, this thing seems to boast absolutely no expandability. No card slots, no audio in... I feel like that will be a problem.
Still, might be a fun little box to throw LinuxPPC and MOL onto ;-)
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OK 1 problem how can you sell it new without a mouse or keyboard????
What's hard to believe? I would personally prefer to keep my own USB ergonomic keyboard and USB laser mouse than use any mandatory mac component. This appears to be the reasoning behind it. Very "Amiga-esque" mentality really. Give users the basics, let them decide what THEY want.
Wayne
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Matt,
Keep in mind that it's 100% expandable, but not in the way that you have grown accustomed to as a PC or Amiga user. The Macs depend on USB and firewire 100% for expansion, pretty much exactly like the old 500 used to rely on that one connector slot on the side. There are LOTS of expansion parts for the Macintosh, but again, it's left up to the USER to buy only what THEY need.
Wayne
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I wondered when people were talking about the Mac MINI if they were talking about this..
The original Mac Mini..
(http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Entex/Entex-MAC.jpg)
Does Apple know it stole another product name??
The Real Mac Mini (http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Entex/MAC.htm)
PS Why would want want an apple mac mini, with such lame built in graphics.. 32 megs and a radeon 9200.. It's a little behind the times.. It won't stand up to games that use a lot of texture memory. This is like buying a PC that's graphics is DirectX7 or 8 compatible, when people regularly buy something that is 9 and above. and I am sorry 1.2 Ghz? I'd rather buy a Mini ITX motherboard and build for myself..
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Good to see Apple doing something in the value end** segment.
**Close enough to PC’s 'value end' definition.
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This looks cool. If it's quiet enough I'll probably get one for general browsing/email use. The G4 iMacs and eMacs were fairly noisy. I was looking for an AMD PIC but this will probably be more interesting in the long run.
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DonnyEMU wrote:
I wondered when people were talking about the Mac MINI if they were talking about this..
The original Mac Mini..
Does Apple know it stole another product name??
The Real Mac Mini (http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Entex/MAC.htm)
PS Why would want want an apple mac mini, with such lame built in graphics.. 32 megs and a radeon 9200.. It's a little behind the times.. It won't stand up to games that use a lot of texture memory. This is like buying a PC that's graphics is DirectX7 or 8 compatible, when people regularly buy something that is 9 and above. and I am sorry 1.2 Ghz? I'd rather buy a Mini ITX motherboard and build for myself..
This Apple box should be able to handle XBOX style game ports. ATI's 9200 is a DirectX 8 class VPU.
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adolescent wrote:
This looks cool. If it's quiet enough I'll probably get one for general browsing/email use. The G4 iMacs and eMacs were fairly noisy. I was looking for an AMD PIC but this will probably be more interesting in the long run.
PC system unit for $499 is slightly different fish when compared to AMD’s PIC**(~$249) i.e. its aimed at third world countries.
**Reference design i.e. manufactured by companies such as Samsung.
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Yes a good point directx 8 vs 9... The big difference is the lack of capability to do HLSL style shaders above a version 2.0 shader.This means no cinema quality graphics fx (sort of like sticking a mac with a Geforce 3TI200 or Gforce 4MX instead of a GeForce FX card. Even Nvidia's CG, and ATI's current shader technology are improved for hardware rendering. Speaking of the XBOX.. The Xbox itself has a better graphics engine than this puppy..
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Wayne wrote:
Matt,
Keep in mind that it's 100% expandable, but not in the way that you have grown accustomed to as a PC or Amiga user. The Macs depend on USB and firewire 100% for expansion, pretty much exactly like the old 500 used to rely on that one connector slot on the side. There are LOTS of expansion parts for the Macintosh, but again, it's left up to the USER to buy only what THEY need.
Wayne
Not quite 100% expandable e.g. I don’t think one could replace the GPU card, unless it uses mini-AGP cards in certain modern laptops.
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Donny,
Keep in mind that at the current time, the Mac (ttbomk) doesn't really have any games or applications which would substantially stress a 9200. Not my choice of video either, but I understand why it was chosen.
If you need more than a 9200 video card will offer, you really wouldn't be looking at a $499 mac in the first place.
Wayne
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Hammer,
I wasn't thinking internal expansion, I was thinking external expansion, like memory readers, printers, etcetera.
Wayne
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bloodline wrote:
This is the fist time I've ever thought a Mac was cool... this IS cool!!!
Come on it can´t be the first time?
Colour Classic?
Powerbook 540c? Dont say you didn´t wanted to run WB3.1 on that?
Although not Apple: Umax Pulsar? With a theoretical maximum of 8 CPUs!!!!
So Macs have been cooler before. 8-)
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DonnyEMU wrote:
Yes a good point directx 8 vs 9... The big difference is the lack of capability to do HLSL style shaders above a version 2.0 shader.This means no cinema quality graphics fx (sort of like sticking a mac with a Geforce 3TI200 or Gforce 4MX instead of a GeForce FX card. Even Nvidia's CG, and ATI's current shader technology are improved for hardware rendering. Speaking of the XBOX.. The Xbox itself has a better graphics engine than this puppy..
Even with an improved GPU core (closer to NV25(Geforce 4 TI)) compared to Geforce3; XBOX’s NV2A performance is about same as Geforce3 TI-200 due to shared memory bus.
The said Apple box has the benefit of a real CPU compared X-BOX’s Celeron/Pentium III hybrid i.e. comparable to throwing in an Athlon XP/Sempr0n instead of a Duron.
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As much as I like the fact that Apple is yet again tempting into the low-end market, my point is there is a certain level of graphics standard that most current even value pc's keep to functionality. My point is, you can get a much nicer "value" pc at that price.. The $499 is also hype if you add in a dvd burner (nice one) and wireless..
-Don
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Donny,
I have no doubt it's all hype, but it will be enough to get thousands (who're either curious about OSX or pissed off at Windows spyware and virii) to try the Mac. That's all they want, even if it's a cost loser.
It's the "the first hit is free" drug sales mindset.
I think the bigger thing will be that it pretty much squashes any idea that either Genesi or AI/KMOS ever had about building some mystical PPC motherboard to run Linux on. Why would anyone (other than a system integrator like Tivo) buy a $700 motherboard when they can just buy a mini-mac and put the guts in their own case for $500 (probably much less in qty, or later as the hype settles).
Wayne
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I agree with you. The smartest thing they could ever do is just SELL OS/4 to Mac users.. Even mini-mac users..
-Don
PS Ewwe did I let that slip as a freudian? I mean of course AmigaOS 4 (not OS/2 4.0)
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This has to be the best thing to happen to Apple since the iPod.
I can see this little baby selling quite well.
Obviously not enough to compete against the market as a whole (or at least yet), but it is a long strain up hill. But this certainly is beneficial to the Macintosh platform as a whole I think.
I for one am looking forward to its release, and I'm playing with the idea of getting one as a second-Mac, as I'm sure the millions of other Mac fans around the world are too. I agree with Wayne about it putting a nail in the Amiga's coffin, however it may encourage Amiga hardware manufacturers to start rethinking their strategies and make stricter price targets. If that is the price of hope for a more diverse computer industry then it is ok with me for I am sick of it being nearly 100% x86/Windows.
Heck, even if the Mac had 95% market share I would still like some level of serious competition (as it stands market share/popularity of other OS's against MS is laughable at best.. at least in the HOME market.)
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@Wayne
Note that, TiVO (for PMP device) has recently went for AMD Alchemy Au1200 (SoC Enhanced-MIPS32 core), while Series2™ TiVo ® DVR* are MIPS based (NEC and BCM/Broadcom). BCM7040 still handles encoding side for both Series1 and Series2.
Nemesis for PPC in the embedded space would be MIPS and ARM based.
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by Zac67 on 2005/1/11 16:20:37
If there's any chance AROS is ported to this, I'll get one. Heck - if Hyperion ports OS4 to the Mac I'll pay $150 easily.
There is a bounty (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/bounty_details_15.html) for getting AROS running hosted on OS-X. How much of a jump from hosted to native on a Mac, I really couldn't tell you.
Dammy
TeamAROS
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Dan wrote:
bloodline wrote:
This is the fist time I've ever thought a Mac was cool... this IS cool!!!
Come on it can´t be the first time?
Colour Classic?
Powerbook 540c? Dont say you didn´t wanted to run WB3.1 on that?
Although not Apple: Umax Pulsar? With a theoretical maximum of 8 CPUs!!!!
So Macs have been cooler before. 8-)
You are right, I do like the PowerBook G4, but it's not as attractive as the MiniMAC
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My point is, you can get a much nicer "value" pc at that price.
You can probably get a faster PC if you build it yourself but other big brands just offer Celerons sometimes at *higher* prices. Some of the PCs I looked at were actually lower specced.
The PCs had graphics so exciting they completely failed to list them (i.e. probably built-in Intel stuff which make even low end ATI or Nvidia kit look like stellar performers).
However the Mac includes OS X and iLife 05. Adding a software bundle of that grade to the PC will put it's price well above the Mac. It's not a high end machine but it's very good for it's price, even compared to PCs.
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As for expandability, generally in the past you needed expandability to add things like audio, video, network cards etc. This is all built in now so unless you have some particular need for a special device you'll find USB or Firewire mean it's expandable enough for most people's needs.
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What I find quite amazing is that this machine is priced *below* what the A500 was at at the height of it's popularity.
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I feel the lack of an audio input port (mic or line level) is annoying, but I would even consider a mac to fool around on at this price. To remedy the situation of no audio in, you could use one of these: http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic/
I have used them before and if I remember right they are only about $35. Very nice audio capture capabilities.
-Jamie
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All of you bashing this as low end and the video not being up to speed need to keep in mind that its not meant to be a game machine, its a entry level, low cost Mac intended for users that want to move music to and from the ipod, surf the net, send email and work on some basic things. It can do some nice games. I have a slower iBook with the same 9200 chip in it. Its got 1.25GB of RAM sure, but I can run Unreal 2004 on it just fine. This will be a great machine for those wanting to try a Mac at a low price entry point.
Video with Steve Jobs showing the new Mac mni HERE (http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tvradio/playerfull.asp?guid={5A20C460-1E86-4448-8606-F6CFAA1E9A4C}&siteid=mktw&dist=emailBB
)
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Like I said, I'm not putting it down at all, I'm just trying to figure out how to buy one.
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Is it bashing to point out performance issues, especially when you have advertising on apple.com saying the exact opposite (showing Pixar game footage?).. I think it's cute and I am not saying if you like it you shouldn't go out and buy it.
I am just saying it's not an exciting performer compared to spending $500 to $600 on another platform (and you would get a keyboard/mouse and a display) there..
Something you could set the record straight for me on is just how much RAM does OS X like to have so the OS isn't paging to the hard drive all of the time..
Now if the new wireless iMac was $600 with screen I'd be buying one tomorrow..
PS And you don't think people will use it for games?
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Mini ITX motherboard
(http://peertech.org/hardware/viarng/image/dual-c5p-mini-itx.jpg)
Mac Mini motherboard..
(http://images.apple.com/macmini/images/designhands20050111.gif)
Nearly the same dimensions nearly the same cpu speed, one intel one G4..
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I think the bigger thing will be that it pretty much squashes any idea that either Genesi or AI/KMOS ever had about building some mystical PPC motherboard to run Linux on. Why would anyone (other than a system integrator like Tivo) buy a $700 motherboard when they can just buy a mini-mac and put the guts in their own case for $500 (probably much less in qty, or later as the hype settles).
Agreed. :) The mac will run out of the box linux distros that are not even yet supported for the A1/Pegasos. On my current mac I've run Yellow Dog 3 and 4, Gentoo 2004, Debian Woody and Sarge, Mandrake and SUSE. Now for $499 there is a computer that already runs all of them right out of the box. The bundled OS and software are worth most of the price of the computer.
:-)
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I agree with you. The smartest thing they could ever do is just SELL OS/4 to Mac users.. Even mini-mac users..
What are the advantages of AOS/4 over OSX? Why would a mac user want that? Would it require a ROM firmware flash? Not my mac! :-D
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Eh, all the distros you mentioned are available on the Pegasos... It's officially supported by all of them but two, mandrake and suse. Suse dropped the PPC port.
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t's officially supported by all of them but two, mandrake and suse. Suse dropped the PPC port.
Exactly my point - all but two. For $499 you can get all of them supported. Not bad. There are others - OpenBSD, NetBSD, Darwin, OSX, FreeBSD.
I don't want to discredit the Peggy's geek factor...I have a Peggy and I like it and I know what it will do and there are things coming that will make it even better - but - if I was to spend $600 on another PPC platform, this time around it'd be a Mini Mac. Now all that will need to happen is mass production of Pegs or A1's at a price of about $400 or so in order to compete.
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Wayne wrote:
Like I said, I'm not putting it down at all, I'm just trying to figure out how to buy one.
Just click the "Buy Now" button. :lol: I'm in the same boat. I have to convince my wife that the computer I bought in November was "last year". I don't think it will work. Anyone want to buy a CSMK2?
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Well, it sure is tiny...
And, unlike the old G4 cube, they have the price-point right. Unfortunatly, that appears to be the only problem from the G4 cube that they addressed. It's still a small non-expandable motherboard wedged into a case that looks like it may be a ventilation nightmare. Also, those darn costly and jam-happy slot load DVD drives...
I had read on one of the rumor sites it might have some TV/PVR capabilities. Those would have been useful. I could probably justify replacing my old series 1 TiVo with something newer easier than I could justify purchasing yet another novelty PC, even if it is quite a reasonable price and performance.
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Wayne wrote:
Donny,
Keep in mind that at the current time, the Mac (ttbomk) doesn't really have any games or applications which would substantially stress a 9200. Not my choice of video either, but I understand why it was chosen.
If you need more than a 9200 video card will offer, you really wouldn't be looking at a $499 mac in the first place.
Wayne
Yep..
For Average gamer.. Getting both Ps2 and Xbox would be cheaper and even left money for purchasing good games on them.. And for those Hyper-high end gamers? Mac? G4? with Radeon9200.. :-D :-D
But.. IMHO this one looks really good as a First-time Mac .. I've been looking alternativies for windowse years.. (been using Linuxes,Os/2,BeOs,Mos etc) and this one definitely looks like nice offer to get closer look of Mac OsX...
Secondly.. Fisrt time in years: This on looks about the right machine I could recommend for my parents (both over 65) who never had any computer on their own. Compact, nice looking, had plenty of usefull SW bundled in with (allmost) bulletproof OS.
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I could say a lot, but it's all fairly obvious, and will go back and forth for hours. One interesting theory nobody's mentioned is that the warranty is void if you crack it to expand the RAM, unlike other models -- if so, remember to include the appropriate 'tax' up-front.
There's only one thing that's really been overlooked:
Wayne wrote:
looks like EVERYONE was right about the price.
...Don't forget, that's before the student discount. Which, whether you're groaning or cheering or just kind of surprised they saw another almost-sensible product to fruition, leaves them in a rather comfortable place.
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Wayne: If Hyperion or the MorphOS guys want to survive, they'd better get on board..
*Quietly seethes*
Wayne: If you need more than a 9200 video card will offer, you really wouldn't be looking at a $499 mac in the first place.
Yeah, it's designed for day-to-day stuff. What part of "budget" don't people get?
I still think it's dumb that the machine doesn't come with a keyboard and mouse. PC keyboards are not identical to Mac keyboards, so most people will probably buy an Apple keyboard, anyway. I'm sure Apple plans on that.
Heh. I remember when the official Apple Desktop Mouse and keyboards were $80 each. :-)
DonnyEMU: As much as I like the fact that Apple is yet again tempting into the low-end market, my point is there is a certain level of graphics standard that most current even value pc's keep to functionality. My point is, you can get a much nicer "value" pc at that price..
Yeah, but still not as small. It's always tough to make a GPU choice, too, as it has to be soldered on the board and offering alternate, more powerful choices is difficult.
Still, Apple is infamous for underpowered graphics and charging WAY too much for GPU upgrades. I remember when the Geforce3 first came out. The PC version was just under $300, but Apple was chargine $350 *extra*, which means on top of the built-in graphics that came with the machine (much like how auto manufacturers sell automatic transmissions). Total cost? Way too freakin' much.
Wayne is right. Apple is counting on people buying this and buying more Macs later. That's the whole principle of proprietary hardware: don't upgrade... replace the whole damn machine. That's why I really dispise Macs. Even the high-end tower computers can't be upgraded much or have the motherboards replaced.
With a trap-door and a PC-Card slot, even the A1200 is more expandable than the iMac. That's progress.
Wayne: Why would anyone (other than a system integrator like Tivo) buy a $700 motherboard when they can just buy a mini-mac and put the guts in their own case for $500 (probably much less in qty, or later as the hype settles).
This is the very reason I was mad when the AmigaOne was announced. People think the only way to sell software is bundled with proprietary hardware, or retail. Selling pre-built systems using off-the-shelf components is how all low-volume equipment resellers function. Why can't Amiga do that, too? The AmigaOne Micro is a real dog compared to this Mac Mini, and not even as small.
DonnyEMU: The smartest thing they could ever do is just SELL OS/4 to Mac users.. Even mini-mac users..
Why do people keep suggesting this? Apple wouldn't cooperate in the slightest. Linux gets a chance because Apple would reap hell for stifling open-source developers (on which even Apple depends), but commercial companies like Amiga would be in for trouble. Forget it.
HopperJF: If that is the price of hope for a more diverse computer industry then it is ok with me for I am sick of it being nearly 100% x86/Windows.
Do you believe the reason why that is so is because of Microsoft's anti-monopolization tactics, or the fact practically the whole industry is too stupid to make something better than Windows and MacOS? Given that Linux runs more than half the Internet but has less than 1% desktop share, I vote for that latter.
minator: You can probably get a faster PC if you build it yourself but other big brands just offer Celerons sometimes at *higher* prices. Some of the PCs I looked at were actually lower specced.
Thank you. What people fail to remember about cheap PCs is that you build them yourself. You don't get the convenience of a prebuilt machine, a warantee, an OS, a software bundle, tech support, etc.
I build machines myself and think that's the best way to go, so Macs are not for me. But for a pre-built system that someone isn't going to upgrade every year, Apple is getting much better and more competitive than they used to be.
I still wish they were more upgradable, though. iMacs should come with at LEAST one expansion slot.
minator: The PCs had graphics so exciting they completely failed to list them (i.e. probably built-in Intel stuff which make even low end ATI or Nvidia kit look like stellar performers).
That annoys you too, huh? They never tell you what chipset the machine uses, or what graphics card. "ATI 32 Megabyte" is not exactly a good indicator, other than it probably sucks.
minator: What I find quite amazing is that this machine is priced *below* what the A500 was at at the height of it's popularity.
True, but the Amiga came with a keyboard and mouse, and didn't need a seperate box to plug into a TV. I tried to get a price for the TV box, but Apple didn't have it listed in the store. :-)
DonnyEMU: PS And you don't think people will use it for games?
To be perfectly honest, I expect people will spend a lot of time playing on the web with Flash and Java games. I repair other peoples' computers on a regular basis, and very, very few people actually have any serious 3D games on their machines -- they have lots of IE plugins, weather tickers, and other little bits of junk, instead. Weird.
dslcc: What are the advantages of AOS/4 over OSX? Why would a mac user want that?
Good point. People buy Macs to run MacOS. So much for the "BeOS died because Microsoft controls the bootloader" theory.
Ilwrath: It's still a small non-expandable motherboard wedged into a case that looks like it may be a ventilation nightmare
Yeah, just like all the PlayStations with choppy video problems. The PPC is cool but not THAT cool. I recall Apple had huge problems with Cubes overheating because the hard drive was too close to the CPU/GPU or something. Even a 1000 RPM fan would be completely silent.
Floid: Don't forget, that's before the student discount.
Well, lots of companies offer K12 discounts, too.
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Something you could set the record straight for me on is just how much RAM does OS X like to have so the OS isn't paging to the hard drive all of the time..
256MB. But that's with the whole whazzam of the Quartz graphics engine on the desktop. Still it's not slow and multitasking works just great. A little application can turn of all the eyecandy (like the shadows etc) and then you are down on memory usage under 100MB.
But different to lets say a Windows machine, adding memory to a mac actually speed things up drastically. I could barely run UnrealTournament 2004, Neverwinter nights (with all expansions) and Warcraft III on my iBook G4/800, but after plunking in a stick of 512MB RAM all of those games are VERY playable. And all are run on a 800MHz processor and one "crappy" 9200 card with 32MB RAM.
What you fail to see is that OS X doesn't do things the way Windows does, and thus can run 3D games at lower specced hardware, and ofcourse on PPC.
So don't be so quick to bash the hardware, don't underestimate what these machines can do before you've tried them out thoroughly yourself.
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Just to clear something up about the Warrantee question:
I called Apple today. I talked to a manager and he says Apple's "official position" with memory installation with the Mini is if you break the computer while installing the memory you aren't warrantee covered, but just putting memory in will not, in itself, void the warrantee. Also any authorized service provider or Apple Store could install your 3rd party RAM for you for a price.
How about a Beowulf cluster of these little babies. :-)
(http://images.apple.com/macmini/images/designstack20050111.gif)(http://www.duoh.com/cms/images/uploads/mini.jpg)
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I could see one of these in the living room as part of the entertainment center. When I first looked at this my thought was "This should be an Amiga".
To me the Mac is becoming more and more what I think the Amiga would be like if Commodore hadn't gone under due to the management.
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Argo wrote:
I could see one of these in the living room as part of the entertainment center. When I first looked at this my thought was "This should be an Amiga".
To me the Mac is becoming more and more what I think the Amiga would be like if Commodore hadn't gone under due to the management.
You know what... if the MAC Mini was based on an Athlon64 (but everything else the same), I would have an order in today.
I agree, this is what the Amiga needed to become, but it needed to do it 6 years ago....
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But different to lets say a Windows machine, adding memory to a mac actually speed things up drastically. I could barely run UnrealTournament 2004, Neverwinter nights (with all expansions) and Warcraft III on my iBook G4/800, but after plunking in a stick of 512MB RAM all of those games are VERY playable. And all are run on a 800MHz processor and one "crappy" 9200 card with 32MB RAM.
The games mentioned don’t quite stress the modern DX9 PC systems e.g. UT2003's boxed requirements 733Mhz Athlon or 1Ghz Pentium III, 32MB Video Card and 256MB of RAM. My down clocked A64 @800Mhz (via forced PowerNow) plays those games pretty well (when not searching for crazy FPS and resolutions). They are hardly the next generation DX9c class games.
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The games mentioned don’t quite stress the modern DX9 PC systems e.g. UT2003's boxed requirements 733Mhz Athlon or 1Ghz Pentium III, 32MB Video Card and 256MB of RAM. My down clocked A64 @800Mhz (via forced PowerNow) plays those games pretty well (when not searching for crazy FPS and resolutions). They are hardly the next generation DX9c class games.
True, but then again the macintosh isn't really a gaming machine. It won't run games like FarCry but still it runs most mainstream games good enough.
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minator wrote:
My point is, you can get a much nicer "value" pc at that price.
You can probably get a faster PC if you build it yourself but other big brands just offer Celerons sometimes at *higher* prices. Some of the PCs I looked at were actually lower specced.
Note that HP and Lenovo offers AMD Sempr0n based systems
(renamed K7 Athlon XP T-bred/Thornton core or K8 Paris cores) at $~499 USD price target.
Includes(for AMD HP box);
AMD Sempron(TM) 3000+ operating at 2.0GHz
9 in 1 Card Reader, 3 USB, + Front Audio Ports.
3.5 in. 1.44MB Floppy Drive
64MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce FX 5100, TV-Out
Keyboard & Scroller Mouse
Microsoft(R) Works 7.0/Money 2004/MSN Encarta Plus
I recall AMD’s based PC market share is totally kills Apple’s PC share.
The PCs had graphics so exciting they completely failed to list them (i.e. probably built-in Intel stuff which make even low end ATI or Nvidia kit look like stellar performers).
Note the NVIDIA Geforce FX 5100 with the HP box.
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True, but then again the macintosh isn't really a gaming machine. It won't run games like FarCry but still it runs most mainstream games good enough.
Note, FarCry is a mainstream game i.e. sales chart breaker.
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bloodline wrote:
Argo wrote:
I could see one of these in the living room as part of the entertainment center. When I first looked at this my thought was "This should be an Amiga".
To me the Mac is becoming more and more what I think the Amiga would be like if Commodore hadn't gone under due to the management.
You know what... if the MAC Mini was based on an Athlon64 (but everything else the same), I would have an order in today.
It would be a waste if a desktop capable CPU family is just thrown into the embedded markets due to the incompetence of its stake holders.
Price sensitive PearPC audience may actually like Apple mini-Mac...
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Acill wrote:
All of you bashing this as low end and the video not being up to speed need to keep in mind that its not meant to be a game machine, its a entry level, low cost Mac intended for users that want to move music to and from the ipod, surf the net, send email and work on some basic things. It can do some nice games. I have a slower iBook with the same 9200 chip in it. Its got 1.25GB of RAM sure, but I can run Unreal 2004 on it just fine. This will be a great machine for those wanting to try a Mac at a low price entry point.
Video with Steve Jobs showing the new Mac mni HERE (http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tvradio/playerfull.asp?guid={5A20C460-1E86-4448-8606-F6CFAA1E9A4C}&siteid=mktw&dist=emailBB
)
One could repackage it as iBOX... ;)
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Hammer wrote:
Acill wrote:
All of you bashing this as low end and the video not being up to speed need to keep in mind that its not meant to be a game machine, its a entry level, low cost Mac intended for users that want to move music to and from the ipod, surf the net, send email and work on some basic things. It can do some nice games. I have a slower iBook with the same 9200 chip in it. Its got 1.25GB of RAM sure, but I can run Unreal 2004 on it just fine. This will be a great machine for those wanting to try a Mac at a low price entry point.
Video with Steve Jobs showing the new Mac mni HERE (http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tvradio/playerfull.asp?guid={5A20C460-1E86-4448-8606-F6CFAA1E9A4C}&siteid=mktw&dist=emailBB
)
One could repackage it as iBOX... ;)
:lol:
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Hammer: The games mentioned don’t quite stress the modern DX9 PC systems e.g. UT2003's boxed requirements 733Mhz Athlon or 1Ghz Pentium III, 32MB Video Card and 256MB of RAM. My down clocked A64 @800Mhz (via forced PowerNow) plays those games pretty well (when not searching for crazy FPS and resolutions). They are hardly the next generation DX9c class games.
The point to a good 3D engine is to make it versitile. I've yet to come across ANY game that runs poorly on a GeForce3 -- with all the detail turned off. It's not a matter of framerates, or at least it shouldn't be. It's a matter of how good you want it to look.
I get annoyed when people talk about graphics. 3DMark 2004 gives me about 5 FPS on my Radeon 9800 Pro, which is still a damned fast card, and I don't think that demo looks anywhere near good enough to be getting framerates like that. That shows the enormous inflexibility of their 3D engine in favor of detail. "Real" engines, like the one in Doom3, are perfectly happy running on four-year-old hardware at full speed. The game logic accounts for only a fraction of the total power needed to run the game, so any graphics card will work.
And, no, Mac Mini people will not expect to run Doom3. Although if they do, it will still work fine. :-)
Hammer: One could repackage it as iBOX... ;)
Just as a side note, I think it's interesting that the Mini uses a flat memory model for its graphics, just like the XBOX.
...or did I hear that wrong?
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Waccoon wrote:
Hammer: The games mentioned don’t quite stress the modern DX9 PC systems e.g. UT2003's boxed requirements 733Mhz Athlon or 1Ghz Pentium III, 32MB Video Card and 256MB of RAM. My down clocked A64 @800Mhz (via forced PowerNow) plays those games pretty well (when not searching for crazy FPS and resolutions). They are hardly the next generation DX9c class games.
The point to a good 3D engine is to make it versitile. I've yet to come across ANY game that runs poorly on a GeForce3 -- with all the detail turned off. It's not a matter of framerates, or at least it shouldn't be. It's a matter of how good you want it to look.
I get annoyed when people talk about graphics. 3DMark 2004 gives me about 5 FPS on my Radeon 9800 Pro, which is still a damned fast card, and I don't think that demo looks anywhere near good enough to be getting framerates like that. That shows the enormous inflexibility of their 3D engine in favor of detail. "Real" engines, like the one in Doom3, are perfectly happy running on four-year-old hardware at full speed. The game logic accounts for only a fraction of the total power needed to run the game, so any graphics card will work.
And, no, Mac Mini people will not expect to run Doom3. Although if they do, it will still work fine. :-)
The strength ID’s DOOM3 licensing activities illustrates the inclination for 'effective' 3D engine for game content providers.
Hammer: One could repackage it as iBOX... ;)
Just as a side note, I think it's interesting that the Mini uses a flat memory model for its graphics, just like the XBOX.
...or did I hear that wrong?
[/quote]
Well, Apple did state ATI Radeon 9200. As you may already know; MS's XBOX is dual memory channels based NB i.e. P6's ~1GB consumption is shared within NV2A (basically nForce IGP)’s ~6.4GB bandwidth. NV2A IGP has two Vertex Shaders i.e. just like Geforce 4 TI but clocked lower @250Mhz.
It would be nice IF the mini-Mac has a GameCube sandbox virtual machine (non-standard CD not factored).
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Mini ITX motherboard,
Mac Mini motherboard..
Nearly the same dimensions nearly the same cpu speed, one intel one G4.
Not quite, the VIA CPUs are very weak compared to, well, everything. At the same clock speed the G4 will kick it's ass.
--
Something you could set the record straight for me on is just how much RAM does OS X like to have so the OS isn't paging to the hard drive all of the time..
256MB should do fine providing you're not into heavy multi tasking.
My machine is currently using 309MB and thats running Safari (8 tabs open), iTunes, mail, SETI, 2 finder windows, Activity monitor & a desktop pager.
OS X is not Windows XP...
--
Cheap HP machines:
I compared prices at an online shop and some of the machines were HP - complete with Celerons.
Levono had a Celeron with 256MB, XP Pro, CD-ROM (not DVD) and "Intel graphics" for £20 more.
I wonder if some companies have suddenly put some machines on offer because they know people will be comparing prices?
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I compared prices at an online shop and some of the machines were HP - complete with Celerons.
Refer to
1. HP's Compaq Presario SR1000Z series for AMD based systems (www.shopping.hp.com).
2. http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P1534
AMD already out sells Intel in certain PC desktops segments.
I wonder if some companies have suddenly put some machines on offer because they know people will be comparing prices?
HP’s Compaq Presario SR1000Z have been already been selling for awhile now i.e. before Apple's Mini-Mac.
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Waccoon wrote:
Floid: Don't forget, that's before the student discount.
Well, lots of companies offer K12 discounts, too.[/quote]
I was thinking of the college discount; fewer companies offer that, it's more obfuscated from the PC vendors that do, and by that point, students are usually making their own purchasing decisions.
As to keyboards... PC USB keyboards are said to work, and generic USB mice definitely do. Someone once said that Option (Alt) and Command (Apple) trade places, but I just ran back and forth comparing layouts, and that means the 'positions' are Mac-correct when plugged into a Mac -- you'd just want to pop your keycaps around. (Or buy a cheap MacAlly keyboard instead of the official Apple one... Or this para-ruggedized thing (http://matias.ca/tactilepro/) someone showed me the other day.)
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DonnyEMU wrote:
I am sorry 1.2 Ghz? I'd rather buy a Mini ITX motherboard and build for myself..
That's EXACTLY what i thought when i saw it...
i mean...buy one of the ready made cases [which most people who've played lego will be able to assemble], or even shove it into anything you want (a mac mini case? :-D )....
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the mac mini is all and including the price tag what the amigaone should be.... if this had been the amigaone with the finished aos4.0 it would be a massive success... but as usuall its not the reality... i am still sitting on the fence and i will still be sitting there for a 5 years at least before i do anything amigashoping, i got my classic maybe i get one of them new ppc cards, so at least i can try out aos4.0....
:-(
________
Nice tits live (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/medium-tits/)
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Looks like this house is getting TWO of those in a few weeks.
I'll have a second Mac for portability (its smaller than a laptop for crying out loud) and my parents are sick of Wintel so I'll get them one too. :-)
/me can see these babies selling like hot cakes.
Looks like with the iPod, Apple are really opening up to the masses.
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Argo wrote:
I could see one of these in the living room as part of the entertainment center. When I first looked at this my thought was "This should be an Amiga".
To me the Mac is becoming more and more what I think the Amiga would be like if Commodore hadn't gone under due to the management.
I agree
iMac Mini vs A500/A1200
OS: You can use the GUI or commandline as you like, WB and OSX is simliar in this. OSX gets bonuspoints for including a full POSIX-enviroment from start.
Software:Pretty similar Garageband,iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie vs Soundtracker, DPaint,
Ram:Buyers will soon want extra ram, same for both. Biggest mistake on the A1200 no easy way of adding ram. A500 wins on easyness to add more.
Tv-out:Both requires an adaptor(mac mini) or special cable(A500/A1200). A1200 superior here. A500 had the adapter included in price.
Sound in: both needs a sampler.
Other expansion: All can add external hardrives pretty easy. Videodigitizers can used(firewire/side-expansion/par). USB+Firewire is pretty much the same as par, serial,diskdrive and expansionbus of the amiga.
PricePretty much the same.
So it is very an Amiga for the 21-century.
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Granted,
and that is one of the main reasons why this little wonder has much mass appeal. Evidence of this? Well in the short time this machine has been heard of I know a hell of a lot of people who want one, and that includes even the most hardcore x86 fanatics. I think this is mostly down to the price although after a few months of using the machine I am sure they will realise why the Mac is such a great, under-rated machine (much like the Amiga was).
Today.. I have converted about 10 of my friends to the Mac, almost by accident. I never had to persuade, or push or anything. They just seen it, and the price, and decided they were going to GET one.
I think it will sell very well.
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minator wrote:
Mini ITX motherboard,
Mac Mini motherboard..
Nearly the same dimensions nearly the same cpu speed, one intel one G4.
Not quite, the VIA CPUs are very weak compared to, well, everything.
Not Geodes :-P
At the same clock speed the G4 will kick it's ass.
No doubt.
Something you could set the record straight for me on is just how much RAM does OS X like to have so the OS isn't paging to the hard drive all of the time..
256MB should do fine providing you're not into heavy multi tasking.
My machine is currently using 309MB and thats running Safari (8 tabs open), iTunes, mail, SETI, 2 finder windows, Activity monitor & a desktop pager.
OS X is not Windows XP...
I don´t see much difference in terms of memory usage?
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Also, those darn costly and jam-happy slot load DVD drives...
The same kind of costly and jam happy mechanism thats been working fault free in my car stereo for the last 5 years?
Ahem, anyway, TBH this is everything I wanted from a MicroA1 or Peg2, ready built with no worries. Apart from an Amiga (ish) OS.
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Holley wrote:
Ahem, anyway, TBH this is everything I wanted from a MicroA1 or Peg2, ready built with no worries. Apart from an Amiga (ish) OS.
I'll second that.
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I think it will be hit in the educational market. Both with schools and students. And OSX is really cheap and easy when it comes to unixes/posix/bsd whatever. thats a huge benefit in this market
And it´s back to the original iMac concept of trying to compete with PC at PCs pricelevel.
I think its time to do this (http://mini-itx.com/projects/mac-itx/) rigth :-D
I almost consider getting one just to run this http://www.kallisys.com/newton/einstein/ (http://www.kallisys.com/newton/einstein/)
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13456 (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13456)
But I wouldn´t have minded if it was higher and had regular DDR DIMM and a 3,5" HD instead of SO-DIMM and 2,5" HD. What would a little more height mattered compared to the price difference? :-?
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The same kind of costly and jam happy mechanism thats been working fault free in my car stereo for the last 5 years?
Yep.... Those very same CD load mechanisms. (http://www.atpm.com/8.07/strikes2.shtml?print) Of course, the one in your car has an EJECT BUTTON.
I particularly like the part after step 5 in the CD removal procedure.... (And why should I need a 5 step CD removal procedure, anyhow? Is asking for a stinking BUTTON too much??)
If none of these tricks work, you’ll probably need to call for help.
And don't expect that call to be covered under any warranty....
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Excuse me sir, but what makes you think a button will make much difference?
I have had CD's stuck in a PC many times, and pressing the button was useless and of course with it being a tray load there was no way to pull it out.
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Have any of you critisizing minimac thought something like QUALITY ?
I belive not ...
QUALITY is a way of life . and belive me it cost LESS! and I will explain: Computers are TOOLS not investments, tools for your entairtainment, tools for your work, Imagine a dremel tool for cutting holes, the QUALITY tool cost twice than a cheap tool but is CHEAPER because it works most of the times for more than twice holes than the cheap one. And have you observed any of you that the CDROMS,HDs, etc has the apple logo on top of the logo of the brand that produces them? its because apple gets the A+ quality compoments and most of the other inventors (cause of price competence) get Bs like me and you that we built our own computer. I own a computer company that sales hardware and support for both mac and PCs and belive me the SAME models that apple use in their product has more HBF (hours between failure) than the same models I use for builting our PC's (And my company is not a cheapPC assembler) and NOONE mac until now came with problems on arrival, but many MANY compoments for the PC about 1\10 came problematic. Also Don't forget the design that apple always has , apple CREATES FASHION remember coloured computers,semi and clear cases etc... AND SIZE DOES MATTER!!!! SMALLER IS BETTER (and more expensive!). And just think if you want a more beautifull furniture for your room, more beautifull clothes that lasts longer and ALL that in a very PRACTICAL way...
Don't forget that the OS with a REALY big bundeled software are include in that price, stability and beauty, and NO virus and exploits, you realise that its not at all a bad price! I have a faster machine for about the same money BUT... its BIG, its not as stable,makes NOISE!, always a risk of virus and a big hard drive full of ?BLOATWARE???
Expandability ???? a friend of mine having a 4 years mac (cube) is waiting for his dual G4@1800Mhz card.. 4years OLD!!! can you find something for a P3 now without changing the ENTIRE computer (including the power supply!!!)???
Only amiga is more expandable than mac.. a '92 machine with expansions for PPC, PCI, soon coldfire and another PPC solution...
You may be evangelist for the one firm of the other but the conclusion is only one:
If you (like me) don't need computers for job (my job is to fix them not to use them!!!) and want to feel the creativity feeling then get a bunch of cards with that money spend some time to built and test and be happy but never fool yourselves: a mac with the same money and lesser efford will ALWAYS be a better product.
Minimac will be my first owned mac and it will reside between my 2 (FAST)PC's and my 2 working and Highly expanded amigas. (My previous mac, a powerbookG4 12' was a present from me to my wife)
Always be HAPPY and..... smarter!
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Excuse me sir, but what makes you think a button will make much difference?
Well, at least it's a start. :P
I have had CD's stuck in a PC many times, and pressing the button was useless and of course with it being a tray load there was no way to pull it out.
Tray loads are easy to fix. Stick a paperclip in the hole and rip the tray out. If that fails, it's a cheap commodity part to replace. A big negatory on both counts there for the Mac, though.
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@StormLord
Apple has never been known for it's quality. Your statement about A+ quality components and MTBF (HBF as you say it) is hogwash. Please supply some real sources to back this up.
No viruses or exploits. Then why is there Antivirus software and system patches? No system is perfect, they all have flaws.
The only reasons that Macs cost more than equivilent PC are: 1) people are willing to pay, 2) Apple has a hardware monopoly, and 3) Apple uses illegal price fixing strategies to eliminate dealer competition.
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Floid: I was thinking of the college discount; fewer companies offer that, it's more obfuscated from the PC vendors that do, and by that point, students are usually making their own purchasing decisions.
Well, I assume Apple relies more on K12 than other companies. My college required me to buy Machintoshes for our newspaper office because they had a "discount" deal with Apple. I really wanted to convert the office to the PC, instead. I must point out that this was back in '96, before OSX existed and Macs crashed every 15 minutes when running Photoshop and Quark Express. God, I hated those Macs. Today I wouldn't object so much.
Dan: I don´t see much difference in terms of memory usage?
Me neither. I have 512MB in my system, and my Win2000 system idles at 200MB usage. I'm running Apache, MySQL, and Norton Antivirus (Apache uses about 7MB, the other two use 25MB each). Firefox uses between 10MB to 100MB of memory, and I've seen it use 310MB, once.
Holley: The same kind of costly and jam happy mechanism thats been working fault free in my car stereo for the last 5 years?
More room in the car dash. I assume the disc loaders in the iMac and Mac Mini use smaller laptop-quality components.
At any rate, I think it's dumb. I flipped out when I saw the ultra-flimsy laptop CD drive in the iMac, so I don't have high expectations for whatever is in the Mini.
HopperJF: Excuse me sir, but what makes you think a button will make much difference?
Well, eject buttons don't work like they used to. Today they're all software controlled, and the drive / OS can "lock" the button if they feel like it. It's really fun when you reboot the computer, try to take the CD out, and the drive closes automatically, crushing the disc.
Things like this are why I refuse to drive an automatic transmission or use the "auto" setting on my car's climate control system. I don't like gizmoes. I like buttons that do what I tell them to do. :-)
HopperJF: ...being a tray load there was no way to pull it out.
I've never seen a tray-load that didn't have an emergency eject that can be pushes with a straightened paperclip. Auto-loading CDs, however, don't have that. I would never willingly purchase such a drive.
Stormlord: the QUALITY tool cost twice than a cheap tool but is CHEAPER because it works most of the times for more than twice holes than the cheap one.
Indeed. But, try explaining that to a marketeer or a manager.
Two things to consider when designing a product: the people who buy a product are often not the people who use the product, and you can't logically explain quality control to a manager. :-)
Stormlord: ...can you find something for a P3 now without changing the ENTIRE computer (including the power supply!!!)???
Of course you can. But, it's so cheap to buy stuff you can afford to replace everything. Years ago, the best thing you could do to improve an old PC's speed was to put in a fast hard drive and leave the CPU alone. If I want a new ATA100 hard drive controller for an old PC, I can spend $25. If I want one for an old Mac, it will run just shy of $200.
It helps if you CAN replace only what you want. A PC allows you to replace the motherboard, power supply, and case. A Mac allows you to replace the whole damn machine complete with built-in monitor, including parts that don't need to be replaced often, like the CD drive. Even pre-built PCs with proprietary cases often use standard ATX motherboards and graphics on a card.
Ilwrath: Tray loads are easy to fix. Stick a paperclip in the hole and rip the tray out. If that fails, it's a cheap commodity part to replace. A big negatory on both counts there for the Mac, though.
Yeah, but I must still applaude Apple's decision to use SerialATA for the DVD. I wish PC vendors would wake up and banish all these damned ATA cables! Internal USB floppies that don't cost $55 would be nice, too.
Then again, being able to boot of a flash card would be excellent. Most PC BIOSes don't support that, though.
Adolescent: Apple has never been known for it's quality
I back this up 100%. At least if you get screwed over by one bad PC vendor, you have dozens of others to choose.
Adolescent: The only reasons that Macs cost more than equivilent PC are: 1) people are willing to pay, 2) Apple has a hardware monopoly, and 3) Apple uses illegal price fixing strategies to eliminate dealer competition.
1. - Yup. People have more control than they realize, but they never boycott -- they always suck it up and pay. I believe the same rules apply to Microsoft's product activation and copy protection on games and DVDs.
2. - Yup. But then, so did Atari and Commodore, so we should talk. BTW, those two went out of business. :-)
3. - That "illegal" price fixing is not so unusual. Many electronics companies do that. For example, if you try to sell a Canon camera or Sony Camcorder below their fixed price, you will lose your license to sell their products. I used to work in a small camera store, and trust me, they tell you EXACTLY how to run your store. It's pitiful.
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Dan wrote:
Tv-out:Both requires an adaptor(mac mini) or special cable(A500/A1200). A1200 superior here. A500 had the adapter included in price.
Sound in: both needs a sampler.
Other expansion: All can add external hardrives pretty easy. Videodigitizers can used(firewire/side-expansion/par).
You've hit on the reason there's no TV out; Apple's in the TV (Studio Display) business now. Why should they take pains to be compatible with the competition -- both at the physical layer and in content?
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The only reasons that Macs cost more than equivilent PC are: 1) people are willing to pay, 2) Apple has a hardware monopoly, and 3) Apple uses illegal price fixing strategies to eliminate dealer competition.
Had to laugh here...sounded like a McEwen many slide presentation in St. Louis about dealer pricing, os bundled with hardware, etc. :-D
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I used to work for a "Commodore Authorized Education Dealer".. From the C= Pet to Amiga days.. I will just say this about Apple.. They have superior marketing and in the past exhibited very close to monopolistic practices.
Before Apple opened the Apple stores (like gateway and others in the past going direct), they had a dealer network much like Commodore did.
When trying to sell Amigas to schools we ran up against "but we get this HUGE discount from Apple and free machines".. Which is all hype because the discount just brought them down to what they should be paying in the first place for that level of hardware. Also, Apple would donate machines just to get schools to remove other brands from their labs. This practice Commodore couldn't keep up with because of the low margins it had on it's own products and the high pressure to make profit (based on their financial situation).
Commodore couldn't wrap it's mind around the idea that the idea of "donating" machines for free would gain them marketshare, because the US subsidiaries couldn't "loose money" to make money..
It seems like Apple is again trying this tactic with the low end mac.. They don't care if they make money on it, if it gets them marketshare over PCs..
PS I spent my $499 today, but not on a Mac Mini.. I bought an AMD64 3000+ cpu with 512MB DDR memory, A DVD burner, a sleak black tower case with a 400 watt power supply. It has 8 speaker AC97 audio, built in LAN, Firewire, USB 2.0 SATA, IDE, IDE/SATA RAID and a Geforce FX 5900 ultra.. It's also BYOKMD (Bring your own keyboard mouse display) and it hooks right into my HDTV.. I will race anyone with a Mac Mini, or a G4 AmigaOne any day with this unit.. And I have Windows XP 64 bit edition installed by the way..
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@DonnyEMU,
Yea,
Leave that vanilla PC plugged into the network for a little while. Then I'll race you with a MacMini. :lol:
Seriously though,
I just ordered one as a back up machine that I can actually leave hooked up online while my "Wintel editing machines" stay isolated in fear of me losing all my data.
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Dang you all!
I already own a PowerMac G5, why are you making me want to go out and buy a Mac Mini?
...I've had to talk myself out of it 3 times, and thats just today alone, not even talking about yesterday.
baby steps...baby steps...
I also have a 500 pc, that will smoke anything, speedwise...(did the previous poster include the cost of windows xp in that price though?)...in any event, if it doesn't run mac os x, then it may still be a fast machine, but just remember...it aint got a thing if it aint got that schwing.
no, I did not just say that....baby steps....baby steps.
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You can order one here:
long link edited by admin -- click here (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72203/wo/9023h5nJrv173sEUlc8V2xPzCbn/10.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.3.1.0.0.0.1.0)
Coming out Jan 22nd.
If you want Audio in, you need to buy an USB adaptor for that, hopefully you don't need to buy the expensive on Apple sells.
The 1Gb RAM upgrade is WAY over priced as one might expect from Apple. I wonder if you can use some standard Kingston RAM?
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The Mini is just the beginning.
Apple will move to the next level and take a role similar to that of Sony. Just like Pixar is the new Disney, Apple will out-Sony Sony. MS is not the target but it will finally have serious competition.
The Mini's specs aren't all that hot but with a half gig of RAM it will run fantastic. A cheap could be had for cheaper from a PC vendor but it would always be just another scrappy system with low quality mobo, integrated graphics and a 500Mb RAM limit. Yes you could build your own decent PC, and you will, but millions won't want to. On the software side there would be no comparison to the shear number of high quality applications you get with the Mac. Many Windows users are looking for greener pastures and Mac OS X is a delight. Many just want to hook thier relatives up with something that won't require so many tech support calls. I've been checking many PC Tech boards for reaction on this. The response is often "no more recommending Dell".
You Amigans should be happy about this for more reasons than one. Because by solidifying an alternative platform you not only have one more non MS choice but also platform dependencies in things like the Web and file formats will be kept to a minimum allowing the future entry of further alternative platforms.
P.S. The RAM is user upgradable standard RAM you would would buy for a PC. You do not void the warrantee by successfully adding RAM yourself. It will work with either an LCD, a CRT or your Telly, but only one display at a time. Apple has a long time reputation for quality products and responsive customer service. A 1.2GHz G4 is plenty fast, even with the next version of OS X. The best reason not to buy is to wait for Tiger to come out so you get that free too - it would be wrong to just copy it from a mate just because Apple doesn't include any copy protection.
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Yes you could build your own PC, and you will, but millions won't.
$495.82 USD (without GST) pre-built (with OS) via national level PC vendor (e.g. pluscorp.com.au). This is with AMD Sempr0n 2800+ (@2.0Ghz), ASrock K7S-41GX, PC3200 256MB, 40GB HD, combo DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive, ATX case and PSU.
PS; Mac-Mini cost $611.591 USD in Oz.
Apple has a long time reputation for quality products
They have their own hiccups. Refer to http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17981
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@Hammer
How much more will you need to actually get that 470$ PC to equal AppleWorks suite. AppleWorks is a world ahead of MS Works and it will open/save MS Word files. How about iLife; iMovie, iPhoto, iDVD, iTunes, Garage Band? Many of these have no equivalent on a PC bundle and would cost a dearly to replace.
Without OS X, among other niceties, you would lack Zero config networking (including wireless), a good bluetooth implementation, The most advanced OS level display system and system security.
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Hi
i don't know if is a good or a bad thing.
Only a thing is 100% sure . . .all over the world is speaking about of this new Apple product.
Radio, tv, net . . . all over around.
Will be a great success, you can bet ;-)
.
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How much more will you need to actually get that 470$ PC to equal AppleWorks suite plus iLife; iMovie, iPhoto, iDVD, iTunes, Garage Band?
Already matched it with American HP's SR1000Z series.
Plus you would be stuck with Windows
Actually, there are campers who likes Windows NT architecture e.g. ReactOS campers.
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Since you can add your own RAM, then I wonder if they will offer them without RAM? Then again I could use the mini Mac stick in my PC...
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1337DOG wrote:
Would you get Zero config networking (including wireless)?
Refer to "Universal PnP".
A good bluetooth implementation?
Define good. PS, Bluetooth implementation was updated in Windows XP SP2.
System Security?
For new vs new, refer to Windows XP SP2 OEM-RTM.
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@Hammer
Refer to "Universal PnP".
Is that the message Windows gives you when you try to connect to a wireless network the first time? :-D
I know Windows XP is not bad but in many ways Mac OS X is better. This Mini thing is not meant to sell to someone who is satisfied with MS.
This is a $500+ iMovie studio or Final Cut studio or something to write a Word document on, surf the net, open email attachments free of concerns.
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AppleWorks is a world ahead of MS Works
Since this PC vendor vs PC vendor i.e. factor in HP's "MS Works Suite 2005" (includes MS Word 2002).
Microsoft Works Suite 2005
_MS Word 2002
_MS Encarta Encylopedia Standard 2005
_MS Works 8.0 which includes Spreadsheet, Database, _Calender, Address Book
_MS Money
_MS Photo Premium 10
_Microsoft AutoRoute 2005
HP's add-ons(HP's SR1000Z series)
_Apple iTunes
_RealPlayer
_InterVideo® WinDVD® 5 player (in models with DVD drive)
_Intervideo® WinDVD Creator (in models with DVD writers)
_RecordNow (in models with CD writers or DVD writers)
_Intuit Quicken New User's Edition 2005
_Adobe® Acrobat Reader 6.0
_Adobe® Photoshop Album STE
_Adobe® Photoshop Album Starter Edition
_Compaq Organize
_Microsoft® Software Jukebox
_WildTangent GameChannel
Config shop to match Mac-mini target with
_MS Windows XP Pro SP2
_AMD Sempr0n 3000+ @ 2.0Ghz
_256MB DDR PC2700
_40 GB UDMA HD
_CD-RW/DRD-ROM Combo (48x32x16x48x)
_9 in 1 Card Reader, 3 USB, + Front Audio Ports (can't deselect)
_Compaq Keyboard & Scroller Mouse (can't deselect)
_Microsoft(R) Works Suite 2005 includes Word 2002
I/O ports
_USB 2.0: Six (2 front and 4 back)
_FireWire (IEEE 1394): Two (1 front and 1 back)
_Headphone: One (front)
_Microphone: Two (1 front and 1 back)*
_Line in: Two (one front, one back)* Parallel: One (back)
_Serial: One (back)
_PS/2 Keyboard: One (back)
_PS/2 Mouse: One (back)
_VGA: One (back)**
_Line-out : One (back)*
Results: USD $479.99
In terms of general performance, AMD Sempr0n 3000+ pretty much kills its Intel Celeron counterpart.
AMD vs Intel PC desktop market share refer to
http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P1534
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PS I spent my $499 today, but not on a Mac Mini.. I bought an AMD64 3000+ cpu with 512MB DDR memory, A DVD burner, a sleak black tower case with a 400 watt power supply. It has 8 speaker AC97 audio, built in LAN, Firewire, USB 2.0 SATA, IDE, IDE/SATA RAID and a Geforce FX 5900 ultra.. It's also BYOKMD (Bring your own keyboard mouse display) and it hooks right into my HDTV.. I will race anyone with a Mac Mini, or a G4 AmigaOne any day with this unit.. And I have Windows XP 64 bit edition installed by the way..
What build of XP64 are you using I have 1069 here, I'm just waiting for my Motherboard to arrive (due on Monday!) and I plan to install it! :-D
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1337DOG wrote:
@Hammer
Refer to "Universal PnP".
Is that the message Windows gives you when you try to connect to a wireless network the first time? :-D
UPnP supports zero-configuration networking and automatic discovery.
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by Hammer on 2005/1/13 4:56:08
UPnP supports zero-configuration networking and automatic discovery.
But does it "Just Work"? Have you tried it?
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only $14 a month...
Also if you put your own RAM in...
...guess what? You void the freaking warrenty. So basically Apple wants you to spend $320 extra on $100 RAM. On the other hand you can get the 512 upgrade for pretty cheap, use that for a while, then upgrade later when you are secure that your mini is not going to break down.
GFX chipset and RAM is NOT upgradable upon order.
TV Adaptor only $20 extra.
Student discount is only $20 off (LAME).
All units sold, you will not get one on the 22nd, but it will be around up to 4 weeks later.
Think that's all.
See, now if Amiga would just die, then KMOS or who ever could then take Amiga OS, port it to these, and we would not need the damn memory upgrade, but no Amiga must be owned by some idiots who are once again going to kill the platform by not allowing the OS to run on affordable hardware for a change. :(
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You're missing the point. The mac Mini isn't intended for geeks who worry about opening their hardware and expanding it. It's aimed at moms and pops who want their computer to "just work". If you want more, buy more than the mac mini. If, like me, the mac mini meets all your needs, go for it.
Even though I tend to like Windows XP, $499, or in my case $744 (1.42 version with 512mb) is a hell of a lot more enticing to be rid of Windows than their earlier and much more expensive options. Remember, I'm one of the adult crowd that just doesn't enjoy futzing with computers to GET them to work, so before someone states what they think is the obvious, Linux is not for me.
Sorry, but given the choice, there's no way in hell I (and I bet most) will spend $600 or more on a MOTHERBOARD with the same general specs just to run the unsupported AmigaOS.
Like I said, it's not my intention to piss people off here. I'm just stating what I think of as facts, but IMHO if Hyperion hopes to survive, they'd better rethink the whole proprietary hardware thing and scuttle Eyetech.
Wayne
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1337DOG wrote:
Yes you could build your own decent PC, and you will, but millions won't want to. On the software side there would be no comparison to the shear number of high quality applications you get with the Mac. Many Windows users are looking for greener pastures and Mac OS X is a delight. Many just want to hook thier relatives up with something that won't require so many tech support calls. I've been checking many PC Tech boards for reaction on this. The response is often "no more recommending Dell".
You Amigans should be happy about this for more reasons than one. Because by solidifying an alternative platform you not only have one more non MS choice but also platform dependencies in things like the Web and file formats will be kept to a minimum allowing the future entry of further alternative platforms.
And at last, someone manages to unleash the truth and some sense upon the ney-sayers.
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Like I said, it's not my intention to piss people off here. I'm just stating what I think of as facts, but IMHO if Hyperion hopes to survive, they'd better rethink the whole proprietary hardware thing and scuttle Eyetech.
Wayne
I have felt this way all along, and many people are coming to realise that, thanks to this machine.
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You Amigans should be happy about this for more reasons than one. Because by solidifying an alternative platform you not only have one more non MS choice but also platform dependencies in things like the Web and file formats will be kept to a minimum allowing the future entry of further alternative platforms.
oh, well, you know, you can see the positive side of anything, if you try hard enough!
But, I would say that it's the proliferation of Firefox and openoffice.org that are ahead of the curve in promoting standards, right now, even a moderately successful alternative web browser or file format that runs on the windows platform, is more of a concern for the developer than if it runs on the Mac platform...its just sheer numbers.
Just as iTunes is relevant because it runs on Windows, and 98% of all quicktime downloads are done by windows users, according to apple.
so, I mean, quite frankly, the mac mini is a great thing that will help with standards proliferation, but then again, the real work in that arena, is, usually always fought on the windows platform itself, even by the most ardent of non-windows companies (like apple)
anyway...I hate to be a naysayer, but I wouldn't hang my hat on a proliferation of standards to help the Amiga in anyway...The amiga isn't positioned to take advantage of this trend, as the amiga isn't a platform based on modern web or file format standards anyway.
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I have felt this way all along, and many people are coming to realise that, thanks to this machine.
Let me reiterate something here. I think Hyperion will be able to squeak by selling AmigaOS on the AmigaOne to dedicated, hardcore Amiga geeks. I also think that -- if he's able to get the price down severely -- Alan (and Genesi) will be able to sell a few motherboards to Linux geeks. The game however has just changed dramatically and let's face it. There are only so many Amiga geeks left, most of which have already bought their choice of platform.
Despite it's apparently limited expandability INSIDE THE BOX, the Linux geeks interested in running PPC-based Linux would run YDL on the Mac Mini before they'd go out of their way to spend MUCH more on pretty much an identically specced motherboard.
Besides, both the AmigaOne and Pegasos are just as non-expandable where the CPU is concerned. You can't plop a higher speed CPU into either without modifying it. There's no indication anywhere that the CPU in the mac mini ISN'T socketed, since there are two different ones, $100 apart.
That leaves the video card support the ONLY part of the Mac Mini that's really debatable. Not sure that matters either, because if they wanted to, Apple COULD do upgrade plans as needed later.
Wayne
{edit: later thought... What if the Video chip on the mac mini were flashable, meaning it could be upgraded to higher functionality and reallocate memory as needed?}
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{edit: later thought... What if the Video chip on the mac mini were flashable, meaning it could be upgraded to higher functionality and reallocate memory as needed?}
You must know that's not actually possible... right?
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You must know that's not actually possible... right?
No. Remember, I've long-since outgrown my technogeek phase, so I'm not at all sure why it wouldn't be possible. Don't bore me with technical reasons, because I don't really care. It was just a thought, and considering my lack of knowledge in that area, I'm fully willing to accept "it's not possible" as an answer
:-)
Whereas computing is concerned, I very much feel like Danny Glover... "I'm gettin too old for this s*it". I just want a computer that's supported (even if not to the level of Windows) and that "just works". I do e-mail, web work, and a few games. The Mac Mini pretty much should fit the bill for me. Your mileage may vary.
Wayne
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Wayne wrote:
You must know that's not actually possible... right?
No. Remember, I've long-since outgrown my technogeek phase, so I'm not at all sure why it wouldn't be possible. Don't bore me with technical reasons, because I don't really care. It was just a thought, and considering my lack of knowledge in that area, I'm fully willing to accept "it's not possible" as an answer
:-)
Whereas computing is concerned, I very much feel like Danny Glover... "I'm gettin too old for this s*it". I just want a computer that's supported (even if not to the level of Windows) and that "just works". I do e-mail, web work, and a few games. The Mac Mini pretty much should fit the bill for me. Your mileage may vary.
Wayne
Shame, I though you might have stumbled upon a legal, cheap and plentiful supply of safe halucinagenic compounds which you were willing to share :-D
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It looks like the hardware is just about exactly what the new MicroA1s should be - if OS4 was made available for it it would be a dream come true. I have my A3000 for messing around on, getting one of these would just be for serious work ... it's so tempting!
ps. I've always wanted a slot-loading CD drive, I still think my car CD player is neat :-D
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Holley wrote:
It looks like the hardware is just about exactly what the new MicroA1s should be - if OS4 was made available for it it would be a dream come true. I have my A3000 for messing around on, getting one of these would just be for serious work ... it's so tempting!
ps. I've always wanted a slot-loading CD drive, I still think my car CD player is neat :-D
Well, I gues we'll just have to plop AROS on there and show 'em how it's done :-D
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MarkTime wrote:
Just as iTunes is relevant because it runs on Windows, and 98% of all quicktime downloads are done by windows users, according to apple.
Quicktime is shipped with OS X that could well be why..
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Holley wrote:
It looks like the hardware is just about exactly what the new MicroA1s should be - if OS4 was made available for it it would be a dream come true. I have my A3000 for messing around on, getting one of these would just be for serious work ... it's so tempting!
ps. I've always wanted a slot-loading CD drive, I still think my car CD player is neat :-D
The new iMac G5 also has a slot loading drive, and it is mounted on the side of the machine, much like the wedge Amigas had their disk drives :-)
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Floid wrote:
You've hit on the reason there's no TV out; Apple's in the TV (Studio Display) business now. Why should they take pains to be compatible with the competition -- both at the physical layer and in content?
Studio Display a TV? Really, most tvs is still CRTs around here. Only real geeks and rich snobs go for lcd and plasma.
But you could sell a cheap projector to Svensson. :-)
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What?
There IS TV out!!
There will be a cable available separetly.
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http://www.macnews.de/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=16&page=1 has a few photos of the machine in-the-flesh, to peek at. It's cables galore there, which is something I'm not used to seeing on a mac :).
However - further along in the gallery are photos of the logic board. Judging by the size of the case (6" by 6") it looks like it's right in between mini-itx and nano-itx in size.
The photos don't show all of the interior however, just the motherboard. I'd like to see how the HD fits in, the heatsinks, the bluetooth/airport slots. I know they'd be mounted a little above the motherboard on a framework somehow - the geek in me wants to see it all :D.
(the non-geek in me who just likes to use a computer like Wayne has been saying, is just happy with this eMac... for now :D
dana
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But does it "Just Work"? Have you tried it?
With an UPnP capable 4 port ADSL NAT router and 4 UPnP capable PCs. Refer to http://www.upnp.org/
UPNP initiative has been with us since the middle of 1999.
Also refer to;
1. http://presslink.dlink.com/pr/?prid=151
2. Purpose for Intel's Centrino PR.
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Many Windows users are looking for greener pastures and Mac OS X is a delight. Many just want to hook thier relatives up with something that won't require so many tech support calls. I've been checking many PC Tech boards for reaction on this. The response is often "no more recommending Dell".
MacOS X has its fare share of *issues* i.e. refer to http://www.macfixitforums.com/
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@HopperJF
Sure, it was just that somebody thought the Apple monitors was TVs. Not at that price :crazy:
Hammer wrote:
MacOS X has its fare share of *issues* i.e. refer to http://www.macfixitforums.com/
So does most things, heck even my TI-86 graphing calculator had one(1.0 ROM).
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Hammer wrote:
Many Windows users are looking for greener pastures and Mac OS X is a delight. Many just want to hook thier relatives up with something that won't require so many tech support calls. I've been checking many PC Tech boards for reaction on this. The response is often "no more recommending Dell".
MacOS X has its fare share of *issues* i.e. refer to http://www.macfixitforums.com/
We never denied that Hammer, but why not approach the computer with an open mind rather than a "defend x86, destroy Mac" attitude?
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Wayne wrote:
Besides, both the AmigaOne and Pegasos are just as non-expandable where the CPU is concerned. You can't plop a higher speed CPU into either without modifying it. There's no indication anywhere that the CPU in the mac mini ISN'T socketed, since there are two different ones, $100 apart.
It be just like the Cube, but you might have to remove the DVD to fit a dual-cpu accelerator:-D
That leaves the video card support the ONLY part of the Mac Mini that's really debatable.
Nothing wrong with the video, I say the so-dimm(I assume?) is the worst part. 1GB is *#£$€&€# expensive. I guess Apple realized that getting lots of RAM is you run newer OSes on outdated machines. This won´t run OSX Puma or OSX Lynx or whatever.
Not sure that matters either, because if they wanted to, Apple COULD do upgrade plans as needed later.
Wayne
But thye won´t, thats the whole point, switch to Mac and then upgrade to a faster, bigger more expensive machine the next time. That´s why they didn´t put two regular RAM-slots on. Never underestimate Jobs loathing of the users( see the Newton-thing).
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Why wouldn't a Crusoe type thing with a GPU work?
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It's a great little chip, I have had one in my PC for about a year now, and have yet to find ANY game that really hurts it (admittedly I've not got Doom 3 or Half Life 2, but I suspect that a slightly lower frame rate and medium detail settings would suffice). Halo? No problems, smooth as silk at 1024x768 with all the trimmings. Medal of Honour, again 1024x768 with all the trimmings it kicks out a consistant, smooth output that defies much of the grumbling about this choice of gpu.
Admittedly my 9200 has 256mb of its own ram, but the way many people have slagged off the 9200, you'd think they were talking about an S3-Virge with an axe wound or something!
This system, with 512Mb of ram will fly playing all but the most recent big name games if my own experiences with similarly powerful systems in the x86 world are anything to go by. I can see this being a great portable BattleField 1942 gaming rig :-D
Hopefully if the Insurance company pay out what they should, the missus will be getting one of these for her birthday :-D
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Despite it's apparently limited expandability INSIDE THE BOX, the Linux geeks interested in running PPC-based Linux would run YDL on the Mac Mini before they'd go out of their way to spend MUCH more on pretty much an identically specced motherboard.
I'm curious about this. My impression is that a platform is made by its software, so what's the point of buying a Mac Mini and putting on PPC Linux, instead of buying one of those other MiniITX systems and putting on x86 Linux? It's the same thing, just a different CPU -- and maybe an attractive case.
I don't see the Mac Mini as a cheap computer, I see it as a cheap Mac. The hardware itself is basicly a laptop without a screen, keyboard, and touchpad.
Dan: Studio Display a TV? Really, most tvs is still CRTs around here. Only real geeks and rich snobs go for lcd and plasma.
Still, you're hard pressed to find CRTs in stores these days. People like the idea of trading bulky size for inferior picture quality and wonky colors. :-)
I worked in a photo store, and nearly flipped when my boss started replacing all the monitors with LCDs. Color accuracy is impossible!!!
Danamania: It's cables galore there, which is something I'm not used to seeing on a mac :)
Whoa... even my PC is cleaner than that because I've got all my input devices plugged into a hub under my monitor.
HopperJF: "defend x86, destroy Mac"
Yeah, that ticks me off, too. It's not x86 vs Mac, it's Microsoft vs Mac! Almost everybody screws this up, and it's why Amiga has restricted themselves to "Anti-x86" hardware even after the announcement of the architecture-independent "DE."
Dan: There's no indication anywhere that the CPU in the mac mini ISN'T socketed.
I think the internal photos show a BGA chip as the CPU. My guess is that the two CPU choices are pin-compatible and irreplaceable.
Dan: 1GB is *#£$€&€# expensive.
What else is new? Apple makes money on hardware, not software. $65 for a wired keyboard and mouse?
the_leander: (admittedly I've not got Doom 3 or Half Life 2, but I suspect that a slightly lower frame rate and medium detail settings would suffice).
Interesting how medium detail will work, and not low. That's fine for the moms-and-pops Wayne mentioned. :-)
the_leander: This system, with 512Mb of ram will fly playing all but the most recent big name games if my own experiences with similarly powerful systems in the x86 world are anything to go by.
Wow. 512MB in a mom-and-pop machine. Who knew Macs were so efficient with memory? ;-)
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Wayne wrote:
There's no indication anywhere that the CPU in the mac mini ISN'T socketed, since there are two different ones, $100 apart.
The pics I've seen show the CPU directly mounted on the board. They just make two motherboards. It's much more cost effective, reliable, and space concience this way.
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Adolescent: The pics I've seen show the CPU directly mounted on the board. They just make two motherboards. It's much more cost effective, reliable, and space concience this way.
That makes more marketting sense. Why make a budget machine upgradable?
Now, an iMac without expansion slots is less forgiveable.
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HopperJF wrote:
Hammer wrote:
Many Windows users are looking for greener pastures and Mac OS X is a delight. Many just want to hook thier relatives up with something that won't require so many tech support calls. I've been checking many PC Tech boards for reaction on this. The response is often "no more recommending Dell".
MacOS X has its fare share of *issues* i.e. refer to http://www.macfixitforums.com/
We never denied that Hammer, but why not approach the computer with an open mind rather than a "defend x86, destroy Mac" attitude?
Notice the context in the targeted quote.
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I dunno, I am REALLY excited about getting this new piece of hardware (the dvd rom BETTER not be crap!!!!), but I will never get over the fact that by simply lifting the lid, dropping on some RAM and closing it, you break warrenty. Also Mac is royally screwing over un-aware customers by charging $300 over the 1Gb RAM stick's worth. That is INSANE!!
Can't wait to try UAE on it, hope the Mac port is up to par with the winblows version.
Also as a side note and possible omen, Bungie just released Marathon 1-3 for free today. Which makes me wonder,"has Aleph-One beeb ported to the Amiga yet?".
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AmiXDel wrote:
I dunno, I am REALLY excited about getting this new piece of hardware (the dvd rom BETTER not be crap!!!!), but I will never get over the fact that by simply lifting the lid, dropping on some RAM and closing it, you break warrenty. Also Mac is royally screwing over un-aware customers by charging $300 over the 1Gb RAM stick's worth. That is INSANE!!
I don't think anyone knows the warranty yet. In the past Apple let you install things like memory without voiding your warranty. In fact, if you price a custom system on Apple's website they go out of their way to say that the AirPort card is dealer installed only, but don't mention this when it comes to memory.
Regarding the price, it's about $200 off based on Crucial's prices, not $300. Although the 512MB is actually cheaper through Apple.
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Dan wrote:
Nothing wrong with the video, I say the so-dimm(I assume?) is the worst part. 1GB is *#£$€&€# expensive. I guess Apple realized that getting lots of RAM is you run newer OSes on outdated machines. This won´t run OSX Puma or OSX Lynx or whatever.
I've seen some internal shots; it's a regular DDR DIMM, crammed in on the left? side. Standard height, Apple likes to use cheap commodity parts where the user can't tell the difference.
Not sure that matters either, because if they wanted to, Apple COULD do upgrade plans as needed later.
Wayne
But thye won´t, thats the whole point, switch to Mac and then upgrade to a faster, bigger more expensive machine the next time. That´s why they didn´t put two regular RAM-slots on. Never underestimate Jobs loathing of the users( see the Newton-thing).
While it's fun to knock them for this, I assume they didn't put two regular slots on because this is the new integrated Freescale wunderchip, and the pin count/loading characteristics don't allow it with ease. (Anyone know if I'm right?)
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ok, $200 - $300 I'll give you that much, but STILL! Man, screw apple, they are no better than M$ in that respect.
http://www.pricewatch.com/m/mn.aspx?i=33&f=1
As for Warrenty...
...I'm going by what the Apple rep told me on the phone today.
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Waccoon wrote:
Dan: Studio Display a TV? Really, most tvs is still CRTs around here. Only real geeks and rich snobs go for lcd and plasma.
Still, you're hard pressed to find CRTs in stores these days. People like the idea of trading bulky size for inferior picture quality and wonky colors. :-)
I worked in a photo store, and nearly flipped when my boss started replacing all the monitors with LCDs. Color accuracy is impossible!!!
Sigh, I was talking TVs :smack:
But you are right about monitors.
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Can't wait to try UAE on it, hope the Mac port is up to par with the winblows version.
There's JIT so not yet. This could speed development up a bit though as the port may get more interest.
I assume they didn't put two regular slots on because this is the new integrated Freescale wunderchip, and the pin count/loading characteristics don't allow it with ease. (Anyone know if I'm right?)
No, it's a 7447A (same bus speed, cache size), The "wunderchip" isn't out for some time yet. The next Freescale chip due is the 7448 which should turn up in iBooks / PowerBooks if they still haven't got the G5 cool enough yet.
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Waccoon wrote:
the_leander: (admittedly I've not got Doom 3 or Half Life 2, but I suspect that a slightly lower frame rate and medium detail settings would suffice).
Interesting how medium detail will work, and not low. That's fine for the moms-and-pops Wayne mentioned. :-)
Are you trying to be funny (if so you're not succeeding) or just trolling? Obviously if a game runs in medium or higher levels of detail then by definition it will run that same game at low detail, just a damned sight faster. What I was trying to get accross is that the 9200 is no slouch and is more then capable of playing modern games at medium - high levels of detail settings at high resolutions.
the_leander: This system, with 512Mb of ram will fly playing all but the most recent big name games if my own experiences with similarly powerful systems in the x86 world are anything to go by.
Wow. 512MB in a mom-and-pop machine. Who knew Macs were so efficient with memory? ;-)[/quote]
512Mb is pretty much a necessety if you plan on playing modern 3D games on any computer these days, do try to keep up 007 :-P
But you do have a point, the 256Mb's of ram is the absolute minimum you'd want to run OSX with (or windows 2000/XP for that matter) and that is sad. Modern OS's are hogs, even Zeta (BeOS R5.1 derivitive) struggles with "only" 64Mb of Ram. :lol:
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512Mb is pretty much a necessety if you plan on playing modern 3D games on any computer these days, do try to keep up 007
Now, be nice. I just get tired of everyone bashing Windows for using so much memory, while all the other Operating Systems out there use the same amount.
Of course, a good OS will always have a high memory usage at idle. If you've got it, you should use it, and they use it mostly for caching, which is all disposable. There's no telling how much memory an OS "actually" uses, save for the typical marketting boloney.
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Waccoon wrote:
512Mb is pretty much a necessety if you plan on playing modern 3D games on any computer these days, do try to keep up 007
Now, be nice. I just get tired of everyone bashing Windows for using so much memory, while all the other Operating Systems out there use the same amount.
Of course, a good OS will always have a high memory usage at idle. If you've got it, you should use it, and they use it mostly for caching, which is all disposable. There's no telling how much memory an OS "actually" uses, save for the typical marketting boloney.
Heh, it seemed funnier when I typed it at the time. But whilst you do have a point about caching, you can get a good idea about what the OS in question is comfortable as a bare minimum. Zeta for example will be happy with 64Mb's of ram and whilst will operate at a stretch with 32, it isn't pretty. Windows 2000 likewise is ok for use in office apps with as little as 128Mb's of ram, the moment you want to play games however you'll need 512Mb's of ram, 256Mb's just doesn't cut it (been there, done that).
WindowsXP however to get the same sort of responsiveness as win2k with 128Mb of ram, you need 256Mbs, and for games at the same sort of speed as win2k with 512Mb's you'll need about the same, but will have less ram to spare playing the same game then if you ran win2k. Mostly because of differences in the GUI, extra services and extra bloats.
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Also Mac is royally screwing over un-aware customers by charging $300 over the 1Gb RAM stick's worth. That is INSANE!!
Well, they're screwing their customers but not in the way you think. The motherboard only has a single RAM socket, so you need to use one single module. And, that module is NOT a standard SDRAM, it's a SODIMM like a laptop would take. The price is quite competative for what those actually go for.
Is it insane? Yes.... But it's the design that's insane, more than the upgrade price. (same with the tiny hard drive....)
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I've seen some internal shots; it's a regular DDR DIMM, crammed in on the left? side. Standard height, Apple likes to use cheap commodity parts where the user can't tell the difference.
DIMM0/J21:
Size: 256 MB
Type: SDRAM
Speed: PC100-222S
DIMM1/J22:
Size: 256 MB
Type: SDRAM
Speed: PC100-222S
DIMM2/J23:
Size: 256 MB
Type: SDRAM
Speed: PC133-333
DIMM3/J24:
Size: 64 MB
Type: SDRAM
Speed: PC100-222S
This is how my mac ram is reported in OS X system profiler. The top two are good sticks that I bought from OWC. The third was taken out of a PC, and the bottom one came with the mac. The lower latency ones are better (the top two and the bottom -2225). In this case Mac supplied the better ram. Doesn't always happen though. Mac sometimes uses the higher latency memory. It is possible to tell what the ram is like without opening the case.
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I've seen some internal shots; it's a regular DDR DIMM, crammed in on the left? side. Standard height, Apple likes to use cheap commodity parts where the user can't tell the difference.
Good point (http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html) I stand corrected.
I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet. :lol:
So it's back to an insane price, but a slightly more sane design. :-)
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There are couple really clean and nice pictures of mothernoard linked at Mini-itx site news article. http://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/
That DDram socket looks Huge on that board :-o
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Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't this forum, just by it's name, all about the Amiga ? We should all be intereted in what's going on in the Amiga community instead of what's going on with the Mac or Microcrap. I may be in the minority here but I could care less about those other OS's. Being an Amiga owner since the day when I first saw and purchased an Amiga 1000, for me the other systems could never even come close to the multitasking environment of my trusty Amiga.
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Rbby wrote:
Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't this forum, just by it's name, all about the Amiga ? We should all be intereted in what's going on in the Amiga community instead of what's going on with the Mac or Microcrap. I may be in the minority here but I could care less about those other OS's. Being an Amiga owner since the day when I first saw and purchased an Amiga 1000, for me the other systems could never even come close to the multitasking environment of my trusty Amiga.
This is an Amiga community forum, however, given Eyetech's release of the microA1, this new mac could seriously negatively effect sales of hardware to people not interested in the AmigaOS, specifically NetBSD and Linux PPC fans. That fact alone merrits discussion.
As for other OS's comming close to the Amigas multi tasking, I know it'll annoy a lot of people, but BeOS/Zeta does it better. :-P
As with many things, if Amiga are to re enter into the mass market they are going to have to offer the things people have come to expect, if it is to go into a niche as I suspect it will, then it has to be on at least an equal footing with the competition, with the arrival of the mini mac, the microA1 looks decidedly underpowered and overpriced... It's all well and good to say, lets ignore MS or Apple, but the fact is that simply ignoring the market will eventually land you in a possision where companies in our little community will say goodbye and go on to greener pastures. Not unlike today in that regard.
I've loved Amiga, I learned to push the hardware and software well beyond their supposed limitations, but if I had the cash to buy a microA1 now that the new mac is out, I would be hard pushed to justify the additional cost for the Amiga. Computers ultamately are tools, right now Amiga cannot offer me a good enough incentive to buy (back) into the market, especially with the software that comes bundled in with the mini mac no matter how slick the multitasking is in the OS. I suspect the public at large would make a similar decision based on the above train of thought.
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Ilwrath wrote:
I've seen some internal shots; it's a regular DDR DIMM, crammed in on the left? side. Standard height, Apple likes to use cheap commodity parts where the user can't tell the difference.
Good point (http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html) I stand corrected.
I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet. :lol:
So it's back to an insane price, but a slightly more sane design. :-)
Then people will just buy the 256MB version and then buy a 1GB stick from pc-store.Remove the 256MB mem and put it in a free slot in a desktop and the 1GB in the MacMini.
First mac-user lesson don´t buy it from apple unless you have to! :-D
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Dan wrote:
Ilwrath wrote:
I've seen some internal shots; it's a regular DDR DIMM, crammed in on the left? side. Standard height, Apple likes to use cheap commodity parts where the user can't tell the difference.
Good point (http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html) I stand corrected.
I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet. :lol:
So it's back to an insane price, but a slightly more sane design. :-)
Then people will just buy the 256MB version and then buy a 1GB stick from pc-store.Remove the 256MB mem and put it in a free slot in a desktop and the 1GB in the MacMini.
First mac-user lesson don´t buy it from apple unless you have to! :-D
Don't say that!!! Then no one would buy a Mac!!!
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bloodline wrote:
Dan wrote:
First mac-user lesson don´t buy it from apple unless you have to! :-D
Don't say that!!! Then no one would buy a Mac!!!
Many people want Mac just not an Apple Mac, that´s why Jobs killed the clones. Mac gained marketshare like crazy back then but Apple lost.
Apple would have been in a much better position without Jobs.
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Dan wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Dan wrote:
First mac-user lesson don´t buy it from apple unless you have to! :-D
Don't say that!!! Then no one would buy a Mac!!!
Many people want Mac just not an Apple Mac, that´s why Jobs killed the clones. Mac gained marketshare like crazy back then but Apple lost.
Apple would have been in a much better position without Jobs.
I have to disagree... Apple would be gone if it were not for Jobs. The Mac Cone makers probably would have developed cheaper/better compatible PPC hardware and BeOS would have ruled a very active PPC market.
The PPC market would have turned into another PC market, then M$ would have brought out Window98 PPC... and that would be the end of the story :-D
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the_leander wrote:
As with many things, if Amiga are to re enter into the mass market they are going to have to offer the things people have come to expect, if it is to go into a niche as I suspect it will, then it has to be on at least an equal footing with the competition, with the arrival of the mini mac, the microA1 looks decidedly underpowered and overpriced...
Well, Apple's Mac-Mini is manufactured by Foxconn (refer to Leadtek and Winfast brands)....
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bloodline wrote:
Dan wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Dan wrote:
First mac-user lesson don´t buy it from apple unless you have to! :-D
Don't say that!!! Then no one would buy a Mac!!!
Many people want Mac just not an Apple Mac, that´s why Jobs killed the clones. Mac gained marketshare like crazy back then but Apple lost.
Apple would have been in a much better position without Jobs.
I have to disagree... Apple would be gone if it were not for Jobs. The Mac Cone makers probably would have developed cheaper/better compatible PPC hardware and BeOS would have ruled a very active PPC market.
The PPC market would have turned into another PC market, then M$ would have brought out Window98 PPC... and that would be the end of the story :-D
Aside from Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 and Windows CE 2.X PowerPC edition, SoftWindows 95 would be closest to the real Microsoft Windows 95 PowerPC Edition since this product was licensed from Microsoft’s Windows 95 sourced code.
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I have to disagree... Apple would be gone if it were not for Jobs. The Mac Cone makers probably would have developed cheaper/better compatible PPC hardware and BeOS would have ruled a very active PPC market.
I agree. Apple did this because they didn't know what else to do to stop hemhorraging money. If not for Jobs, Apple would likely have gone into bankruptcy. Not like that makes me like or respect him any more, mind you. ;-)
Today, Apple's business plan is the opposite of Microsoft. They make little money on software (at least OSX), and make it all on hardware. Bear in mind more and more PC magazines are recommending Apple displays for use on PCs.
This also happened before the release of OSX, or even the GUI freshening of OS8. Be was making many plans to appeal to Mac users, and would probably have walked all over Apple in the long run (if they had acquired any sense of interface design, that is).
Would clones have helped the Mac market? Well, Apple customers weren't used to that marketting model, and they didn't like it very much. Apple could've lost a LOT of loyal customers who thought the Mac was just going to turn into another loosely-standardized PC. The same would have happened if Apple had gone x86. That would surely have killed them, even if it would have improved the overall quality of the hardware, as the clones certainly did.
Well, Apple's Mac-Mini is manufactured by Foxconn
I'm not sure why you're pointing this out as a response to the_leander (no offense). It is noteworthy that most major companies outsource their work. No sense making it yourself when you can get a company that has a HUGE amount of experience to do all the low-level stuff for you. A part of me is glad that the original AmigaOne is just a Teron reference board. Who knows what it would've been if Amiga had tried to actually design and manufacture it themselves?
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Bear in mind more and more PC magazines are recommending Apple displays for use on PCs.
Keep in mind that Apple doesn’t build their TFT displays e.g. Apple's Studio Display LM151X3 (B3AP) is powered by 'LG.Philips' LCD alliance.
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Hammer wrote:
Bear in mind more and more PC magazines are recommending Apple displays for use on PCs.
Keep in mind that Apple doesn’t build their TFT displays e.g. Apple's Studio Display LM151X3 (B3AP) is powered by 'LG.Philips' LCD alliance.
Apple will still get revenue coming in from this.
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Wayne wrote:
looks like EVERYONE was right about the price. If Hyperion or the MorphOS guys want to survive, they'd better get on board..
Too damn right, not that it's revolutionary news that Macs are cheaper and better than what's sold as "AmigaOnes".
I'll just refer to my signature this time. :)
As for MorphOS, if it's true that >=1.5 isn't owned by the company selling Pegasoses, then I think my suggestion could apply to MOS as well. Get on board.
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Right this minute I'm downloading some indie music on LimeWire through cable internet, playing 160kbps MP3s with software equalize and sound enhancement turned all the way up through a high end home system, burning a VideoCD through Toast, and surfing the net with dual displays (extended desktop) all at the same time. Not uncommon maybe but I'm on a 4 your old 400Mhz PowerBook with 8mb video card, OS X 10.3 (Panther) with all of 384Mb RAM with all eye candy turned on. Reminds me of the good ol days on my A500.
/ A happy camper. :-)
How to crack a Mini: Video on this site (Click) (http://www.smashsworld.com/2005/01/taking-apart-mac-mini-how-to.php)
Mini undergoing exploratory surgery Here (http://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/)
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I just wanted to add a few pics of my mini to the thread:
http://homepage.mac.com/blakespot/PhotoAlbum25.html
I've got the machine in use, KVM'ed to my Dell CRT, at the office. 1GB RAM on the way.
blakespot
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Wow, I mean I knew that the mac mini was small, you could tell that by the pictures, but by the looks its about the same size as early diskmans!
With luck the missus will be getting hers before too long, though hers will only have 512Mb of ram and the smaller cpu/hd setup. (Ok, I admit it, I'm cheep).
Damned impressive stuff is that!