Licensing vs certification (part deux)

[bhoggett]

@Rassilon

Yes, you are right in theory. However, look at it more closely:

As a vendor, would you have access to all the technical documentation of the hardware, including all the low level stuff?

Can you provide sales forecasts for the entire platform, or must you restrict yourself to your own sales only? The latter I suspect, and if so how likely is it those won't be hight enough to justify the port alone. Note also that no figures or levels are announced as to what would and what would not be acceptable. This means any vendor or proposal could be turned down even if it matches the criteria of one that has been accepted. Who's to know, since these proposals are usually under NDA?

What I'm saying is that the licensing scheme currently in effect is designed for political control, and not for technical or commercial reasons alone.

At the very least the licensing conditions that need to be met should be fully publicised in detail, and Amiga Inc should commit to accepting any proposal which satisfies them, irrespective of who it comes from.

[Wilse]

Even if someone got a license to sell Pegasos+AmigaOS bundles, you wouldn't be allowed to buy AmigaOS for your Pegasos. It's not AmigaOS licensed/bundled/dongled, and it's not bought from an artificially created "Amiga" market.

This is not certain. If stand alone versions can be released for Blizzard, theoretically this could also happen for Peg.

Is my point clear yet?

Not really, no.
And even if there was no license, that doesn't mean it would automatically be ported.
Otherwise, why ain't MOS ported to the A1 yet?

[Kronos]

@Wilse

the OFFICIAL word is that the CS/Blizzard-Version(s) are the only ones to
be sold seperatly, all other MUST be bundled with a (newly bought) mobo.

That is what the whole ruckuss is about, you know  ;-)

[bloodline]

Just a quick question, how do current AmigaONE owners get a copy of OS4?

Is it sent to them on a CD-R, with a few photocopied sheets of install info?

[bhoggett]

@Wilse

This is not certain. If stand alone versions can be released for Blizzard, theoretically this could also happen for Peg.

No it can't. It's been made abundantly clear that no stand alone versions (except for "Classic" Amigas) will be licensed for sale. Fleecy has just confirmed that once more in his statement. It will be impossible to buy AmigaOS4 unless you are buying it as part of a complete hardware+software system.

Even if Genesi got a license, those people who already own a Pegasos would not be entitled to buy AmigaOS4 without buying a whole new hardware system.

Hyperion seem to contracdict that when they mention dongles, but that does not tie in with Amiga Inc's statements.

It won't happen any more than MOS being made available for AmigaOnes. The reasons are political on both sides.

[Seehund]

Wilse wrote:

Even if someone got a license to sell Pegasos+AmigaOS bundles, you wouldn't be allowed to buy AmigaOS for your Pegasos. It's not AmigaOS licensed/bundled/dongled, and it's not bought from an artificially created "Amiga" market.

This is not certain. If stand alone versions can be released for Blizzard, theoretically this could also happen for Peg.

Hey, quit stealing my arguments!

Yes, of course AmigaOS must also be sold "shrinkwrapped" to be installed on already owned hardware, and on hardware bought wherever and in whatever way the user damn well pleases. It's none of the software vendor's business.

If AInc's compulsory licensing/bundling/dongling scheme isn't changed/dropped, as currently a thousand people including me are publicly asking them to, this will not happen. Not even theoretically. AmigaOS will not be for sale separate from hardware.

Of course AmigaOS will be available illegally sooner or later, circumventing the hardware monopoly checking mechanism, but what good does that do AInc, Hyperion, AmigaOS, and us who want to buy the OS? The alternative would be to make money on sales of the product. *shock horror*

And even if there was no license, that doesn't mean it would automatically be ported.

Of course not. Just as the existence of a license applicant doesn't make software write itself.

Otherwise, why ain't MOS ported to the A1 yet?

I suspect it has something to do with that, in contrast to AmigaOS/AInc/Hyperion, it's the same company that develops, makes and sells both MorphOS and (software) and the Pegasos (hardware).
OTOH, since Genesi is in control over their own hardware development, and if they manage to keep up with the hardware competitors, I'd think that MorphOS for other hardware would be a good thing. A larger userbase and potential future Pegasos customers.

Ask Genesi.

[Fats]

There is a precedent against Microsoft bundled software already. If you buy a system which includes bundled Windows in the price, but you do not want Windows, you are entitled to a refund for the price of the software. Why should Hyperion/Amiga Inc be treated any differently?

To my knowledge you can buy A1 without OS4. You can't buy OS4 without a licensed motherboard though. So your comparison is faulted.

[bhoggett]

@Fats

To my knowledge you can buy A1 without OS4.

Nope. Alan did say he intended to make the motherboard available without AmigaOS4, but that is not the case yet. Even if it did become available, it cannot be called an AmigaOne, because both Alan and Fleecy confirmed that the name is tied to the bundle.

Furthermore, if you did buy such a motherboard without AmigaOS4, you cannot later buy AmigaOS4 for it. You will have to buy a whole new system.

The equivalent is Microsoft telling you that if you don't buy Windows bundled with your hardware, you can't buy it at all.

What is strange is that Eyetech have, AFAIK, sold AmigaOnes without AmigaOS4. The customer is comitted to buy AmigaOS4 when it is released, but they haven't been charged for it yet and it is questionable just how enfoceable such a condition is under law.

Whichever way you look at it, it's a "unique"scheme.

[reflect]

Everyone who bought an AmigaOne has been charged for OS4. It was included in the price. Every A1 owner will get OS4 "for free" since they signed up for the EarlyBird offer.

[Swoop]

bhoggett wrote:
The point is that you must contact the hardware manufacturer or the system vendor first, and they have to evaluate the problem and manage the issue, even if you know beyond a shadow of doubt that it is a software problem related to the OS and has nothing to do with the hardware. This is normally a task for either the developers (Hyperion) or the publishers (Amiga Inc).

There are three elements to any system, the hardware, the OS and the application. In case of problems, the majority of users would contact the dealer from whom they purchased the application. (first line of support). if this was not able to be sorted out by the dealer, you would be directed to the application publisher, or more likely the dealer would follow it through himself, in the first instance.  

I have, unfortunatley, to use a PC for my accounting needs, and use Sage Software. If I had a problem with Sage software, I would not expect to contact Microsoft direct to get the problem sorted, and even if I had a problem with windoze, I wouln`t expect to contact MS direct, I would go back to my dealer. If I had a problem with the hardware I would also contact my dealer, or where ever I had aquired the hardware. At no point has the user had any direct contact with Microsoft. If it becomes obvious that there is an OS or OS/Harware related problem, the dealer/publisher/distributor relates the problems back up the chain to Microsoft, who then evaluate the problem, and if it is an OS problem they then provide fixes, not directley to the end user, as this targets only one user, but through the dealer/publisher/distibutor chain, so that all users get the solution.

Microsoft doesn`t provide direct support to individuals, there is always a middleman, that isn`t to say that the individual isn`t supported by microsoft, he/she is, just through the distribution chain.  In the same manner, Hyperion/AInc will support the end user, not on a one to one basis, but through their distribution chain. Which by default means Hyperion is essentialy, the second line of support.

[bhoggett]

@swoop

What you are talking about is the corporate/business model of support.

In these cases the "dealer" is not just selling you a box with the software or hardware, but an entire support package. This is quite normal and how most businesses work.

However, what you are talking about in the Amiga context is someone buying something over the counter of a shop and then expecting that shop to handle all his problems. Small vendors cannot operate this way, because they simply cannot absorb the immense costs, unless you think AmigaOS should cost $2000 a copy or so. Furthermore, a vendor can only provide that support if you only use the kit he sold you and nothing else. As soon as you start upgrading your system with off the shelf components, the vendor won't want to know.

The reality is that neither Amiga Inc nor Hyperion have the support infrastructure to support a product of the complexity of an operating system. Hyperion's support is mostly carried out by the coders themselves and sufficient for their games, but not for complex applications, while Amiga Inc's support is of the "fob 'em off with some BS" variety, or at least that's my personal experience.

The proposed licensing arrangements are designed to benefit one side only, while leaving the other party to carry all the expense and responsibility. Eyetech are happy with this because they were involved in the formulation of the conditions and the unpalatability ensures they get a monopoly. No one else agreeing to the deal thereafter would get that.

I repeat: when I have a software problem with my OS I don't go to my hardware manufacturer. I go to the software publisher whom I have registered my product with.

[Swoop]

@bhogett

I appreciate what you are saying, but the conditions of your point do not exist.

A1`s are only sold through dealers, not over the shop counter, and as previously stated, if I had a problem with an application, I like you would also go back to the software publisher, but not the OS provider, until it was found out that the problem was with the OS.

Again, in your scenario,  Hyperion would still the second line of support.

Now if I had a problem running one of Hyperion`s games (the application), then they are the first line of support, but only because they published the application, and not because they wrote the OS.

[Floid]

The sheer amount of BS and misinterpretation generated by all sides over this is amazing.

Which is why it felt like a bad idea in the first place.  But hey, maybe everyone deserves each other.

[olegil]

Nice. The man links to his own comment on moobunny that doesn't add ANY info on the posting he links to on ANN.

Why not just link to ANN in the first place?

[f94sbu]

@Bill

I find it pretty amusing that you seem to think that the computer industry works totally different from the rest of the commercial industry.

First thing, support is always the responsibility of the person/company/entity that sold you a product and since MS never has sold me a product directly, it is never their responsibility to support me. Support is supposed to go through the retailer. Why else would they be allowed to add 30% on the price of a product?

Second, if you think that you can go and ask for a refund of the licence price, try to figure out what the licence cost really is. Cost is never a fixed number, it varies quite abit depending on volume. So, you will never be able to determine the cost of the non OEM part in that case.

regards,
Stefan

ps.
Regarding the superbundle, you said that Genesi owns the software. What? Doesn't the superbundle contain lots of different software licenced from lots of different developers. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your logic doesn't work here imho.

[bloodline]

I just want to confirm that those who have already bought the AmigaONE DO have some kind of legaly biding document which states that they WILL recieve a copy of AmigaOS 4 free? Or was that not what they paid for, I'm really confused...