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Author Topic: Os 3.2 development preview  (Read 135971 times)

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guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #419 from previous page: December 07, 2019, 08:04:44 PM »
Can there be a way to invoke the border scrollers and arrows in a similar way, by adding WFLG_WBborderscrolls or something?
Scrollers are probably not quite as generic as the remaining system gadgets, so I do no t yet see them as such useful.

And, on another topic, is it possible to implement a late-mount for devices that has been powered up while the system is already running, and are not swappable?
Yes, is possible and already done. I'm just not there yet with the update report. SYS:System contains a new tool "Mounter" that will do that. It will also use the new ACTION_DIE to safely shut down running file systems. That is, all the changes to the FFS became necessary to make the "Mounter" design more robust.
 

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #420 on: December 07, 2019, 08:07:30 PM »
Just to be clear: it is not like the old Mounter that mounts partitions, but a real mounter that scans the bus(ses) again?

Regarding the border scroll gadgets:
it is about the images. if i dont have to take care of the appearance it would be much easier to add those gadgets, whatever idcmps they may deliver.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 08:09:31 PM by TribbleSmasher »
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #421 on: December 07, 2019, 09:43:11 PM »
The mounter does scan the bus, but whether the underlying device is willing to recognize a physical device that had been added after booting the system is, unfortunately, up to the device and beyond control of the mounter. There are typically vendor-specific tools that trigger such a rescan at device level as there is no generic interface for it.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #422 on: December 08, 2019, 07:57:52 AM »
@TribbleSmasher

Why not just use “ACTIVE=0” (or was it ACTIVATE, aka MOUNT iirc) in the mount entry? Because you need to rescan the bus?
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #423 on: December 08, 2019, 08:23:09 AM »
More news, today on the workbench.

First, a couple of bugs we had discovered. In case you have an assign that, for some reason, became part of the hidden device list, the workbench would show and hide this assign "as if it would be a device" every second, so it would pop up, then vanish, then pop up again. This happened if you used the HappyEnv-handler, had ENV: removed from the workbench, but then changed that to an assign later on (probably because RAM: can handle this smoothly now anyhow and the Env-Handler is no longer needed).

Then, if the workbench was reopenend, the repositioning of the "left-out" icons was not quite correct as icons were placed such that they became visible, but the icon text was potentially not, i.e. it could happen that the icon text was beyond the edge of the (smaller) new screen.

Concerning re-opening the workbench, there is another small change in IPrefs which lists now the titles of the windows that block the workbench from re-opening. This is hopefully more useful than to say "please close all windows", without knowing what the windows are.

Another bug was which devices the workbench scanned for inserted disks as the logic is here quite strange. The workbench makes a list of devices (not volumes) at start-up time, but this list is never refreshed later on. That is, if you mount a device later, you'll get a volume icon for the device, but the workbench does not show the device icon if the device is not formatted - so it depended on the mount time of a device whether the workbench checked or not. This changed now, the workbench also adds new devices it discovers during its running time.

We also had bugs in displaying the file size of files larger than 2GB in the "view by file name" view. They were also sorted incorrectly if you sorted by size. Strange, I would have believed I fixed all these signed/unsigned bugs in 3.1.4, but this one was left over.

We also have new features as the window title bar can now be freely configured, including a couple of strings that list free memory, graphics memory (as before), version, revision, CPU model, largest free memory block, percentage of free memory, FPU model, MMU model, and probably some other things I forgot.

 
The following users thanked this post: Tygre

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #424 on: December 08, 2019, 11:27:21 AM »
Files are allowed to be bigger than 2GBytes? Never knew this. :o
 

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #425 on: December 08, 2019, 11:56:26 AM »
@kolla
You say you don't see anything bad about Cloanto taking over.  I must say I beg to differ with you. Firstly, Cloanto has made it abundantly clear that if they win the court case 3.1.4 will be discarded. He has said this quite publicly on numerous occasions,and very firmly I might add. There are a few other things he has said that have my eyebrows on the ceiling.

I don't really see this as a bad thing, I see this as a necessity.

Quote
but 3.1.4 is by far and away the most important.  In fact they have almost rectified the damage they have done in the past.

Not at all, I disagree - OS3.1.4 (and this new 3.2) now shows all signs of falling in the same path as OS4 - how is that a good thing?

It was supposed to be a bugfix and update of 3.1, instead it pulls in components from 3.5/3.9 as well as OS4 and introduces tons of new bugs and issues.

To make matters worse, many of these bugs are in the kickstart chips that still are being sold.

3.1.4.1 fixes many, but far from all these bugs, and 3.1.4.1 will be the last "free update", as 3.2 will be another product, and one with a vast amount of changes that go well beyond what OS 3.9 did, more and more becoming "OS 4 for 68k". Which brings me to...
Quote
OS 4.x is a terrible mess
Exactly.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline nbache

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #426 on: December 08, 2019, 12:10:25 PM »
@Thomas Richter:

Quote
IPrefs which lists now the titles of the windows that block the workbench from re-opening
Oh, sweet! Wonder why nobody has thought of doing this before. Guess we just got immune to this old annoyance over the decades.

(Off to write an enhancement BZ for OS4 ;-)).

Best regards,

Niels
 

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #427 on: December 08, 2019, 01:19:42 PM »
Guess we just got immune to this old annoyance over the decades.
Speaking of... Workbench menu, would be nice if "Update all" not just re-position icons in open windows, but also the icons on the Workbench desktop.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline CBH

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #428 on: December 08, 2019, 02:00:48 PM »
OS4 is a pile of steaming shit (and i have a copy of it), but I don't think it's fair to compare the new 3.x development to it yet. Maybe heading that way (wanting reaction etc) but not yet.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #429 on: December 08, 2019, 02:38:18 PM »
I don't really see this as a bad thing, I see this as a necessity.
And why is that? And what is wrong with the direction?

It was supposed to be a bugfix and update of 3.1, instead it pulls in components from 3.5/3.9 as well as OS4 and introduces tons of new bugs and issues.
As in "which"? Just to give you ideas, what is wrong with a printer.device that prints correctly, an animation datatype that multitasks correctly and a CD file system that supports UDF? All these components came somehow into 3.1.4 through integration of 4.x components, just ,reviewed and bug-fixed to the amount necessary.

The 3.x series is a very conservative approach to the development, quite unlike 3.9 was and much less than 4.x attempted to be.

In fact, you really bewilder me: At the one hand, you ask for experimental components like 4-way adapter support, which we cannot test to the amount necessary to make it a product as robust as I would like to have it, at the other hand, you deny any development of components you don't appreciate and that are not even central to the Os experience. For example, the GUI will still be gadtools-based, thus rather lightweight, so why do you speak so hateful about reaction as it does not impact you at all. It may, however, improve the experience of other users that wait to have it.

You seem to have a very one-sided view on the development. "Only what I want, everything else is shit". The truth is that every Os development is a matter of compromises. Here it is "well, some people want reaction, so let's deliver it, but bind it very lightly into the Os, so we don't ruin the experience on low end machines".

I don't know what is wrong about this.



To make matters worse, many of these bugs are in the kickstart chips that still are being sold.
Oh, worse, Cloanto sells 3.1 ROMs or 3.x ROMs ("developped without a license" (tm)) with even more bugs in it. Why isn't that bad? I believe it is actually worse, selling the old shit again, with the old bugs in it.

We all understand, and you should appreciate this as well, that with a small developer group and - more important  - a small group of beta-testers, our means are limited, yet we try the very best to fix what we broke. In 3.2, the System-Startup was designed to limit the impact of ROM bugs as many RAM components can be upgraded from disk without requiring the installation of a new ROM, and without requiring a reboot.


3.1.4.1 fixes many, but far from all these bugs, and 3.1.4.1 will be the last "free update",
Apparently, you know more about the 3.1.4 updates than I do.


as 3.2 will be another product, and one with a vast amount of changes that go well beyond what OS 3.9 did, more and more becoming "OS 4 for 68k".
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Don't you think it is necessary to advance the 3.x line a bit? It is a less radical update than 3.9, the GUI stays pretty much the same. Though what is wrong with a GUI that is no longer based on topaz.8, without the complexity of reaction? What is bad about iconification gadgets in system tools? What is wrong with windows you can drag out of the screen? What is wrong with TAB-expansion in the Shell?

None of these changes are radical, just slight tweaks, without impacting the overall "feel" of the Amiga.


Which brings me to...
Quote
OS 4.x is a terrible mess
Exactly.
I do not know, and I do not care too much. The reason why I don't care about 4.x is that I never understood what a re-development of a retro-os on another outdated CPU platform is supposed to become. I do not understand AROS for the same reason. If I would develop an Os from scratch, I would certainly not re-implement all the design errors of AmigaOs from scratch - so what's the point? There are better open portable operating systems than Amiga.

The only point in the 3.x development is to get rid of the "rough edges" of 3.1 and to integrate functionality into the Os that was otherwise provided by patches and hacks, with all the instabilities these provide. This is not about "creating a new operating system for 68K", because if I would want that, I would certainly not start from something as absurd as AmigaOs.

 
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Offline rxxic

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #430 on: December 08, 2019, 03:19:46 PM »
OS4 is a pile of steaming shit (and i have a copy of it),

why, all so often, such exaggerations?   
 

Offline LiveForIt

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #431 on: December 08, 2019, 04:09:49 PM »
I checked my source code, and your right there is no WFLG_ICONIFY in AmigaOS4.x.
But if it’s done on AmigaOS3.x it be nice to see the same changes on AmigaOS4.x so do not have to work different incompatibilities.
 

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #432 on: December 08, 2019, 04:21:33 PM »
You could already build it in and wait for support in the future.
 

Offline LiveForIt

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #433 on: December 08, 2019, 04:26:39 PM »
Files are allowed to be bigger than 2GBytes? Never knew this. :o

32-bit. This means that the number is represented by 32 separate one’s and zero’s. 32 bits of 2 possible states = 2^32=4,294,967,296 possible values.

Integer meaning that only whole multiples of one are accepted.

Signed meaning that negative values are accepted. This halves the number of possible positive values (roughly), so the largest number you can represent is 2^31–1=2,147,483,647, but instead of 0, the smallest number you can represent is -2,147,483,648. An unsigned 32-bit integer, by contrast, can represent anything from 0 to 4,294,967,295.

Using unsigned int32 is a minor improvement over old design, as it only gives you 1 more bit compared to signed int32, and now you allowed to use full 32 bits instead of only 31 bits as used before, the problem however is that does not give the possibility to make ISO of 32GB hard drive. So my complaint here is that they did not add support for large files (64bit large files), like AmigaOS4.x has. That’s also another incompatible way to solve it, and it does solve it fully..
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 04:30:15 PM by LiveForIt »
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #434 on: December 08, 2019, 04:28:28 PM »
I checked my source code, and your right there is no WFLG_ICONIFY in AmigaOS4.x.
But if it’s done on AmigaOS3.x it be nice to see the same changes on AmigaOS4.x so do not have to work different incompatibilities.

The sources are on the AmigaOs subversion. Whoever from the Os 4 team wants to pick them up from there, or ask questions about its implementation, is certainly welcome to do so.