Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: DiskDoctor on January 16, 2009, 03:03:17 PM
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Hi. there.
I just got a suggestion that somebody (not Hyperion, not AInc nor vendors like Acube) should get this amazing thing finished.
Arguments:
- it ALMOST works so we're pretty close to the end
- when done, one might MAKE Amiga Inc support this and any reseller might start shipping PPC Mac OS4 CD
- I managed to boot it on my Mac Mini so I'm horny until I have it all working
- highly low budget cost; despite of the eventual cost of the official CD to be, the hardware is cheap and available (50% of sam440 cost, minus hard and cd drive)
What is needed:
- all the specs possible (available) that is
- - hardware (sam, amigaone, pegasus, mac PPC
- - software (os3, os4, os4.1, morphos)
- some coding manpower (some three should do it)
- time and patience
- tests on every PPC spec around
The aim:
- to get AOS4.0/4.1 roughly functional on e.g. MAc Mini PPC
- - drives
- - internet
- - sound
- - necessary graphics
- - any other things would be cool
- spreading it throughout (AmigaInc?)
That's my point.
Any comments?
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DiskDoctor wrote:
What is needed:
- all the specs possible (available) that is
- - hardware (sam, amigaone, pegasus, mac PPC
- - software (os3, os4, os4.1, morphos)
- some coding manpower (some three should do it)
- time and patience
- tests on every PPC spec around
You are missing one little thing here. Guess yourself...
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@DiskDoctor
I look forward to your completion of this project.
:roll:
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@ Colani1200
Well let's assume I didn't guess.
I can surmise that you're suggesting it cannot be done.
Did I ever say that it is doable?
Please enlight me then. I really want to know.
I suppose I quickly mentioned all the things considered mandatory here.
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- I managed to boot it on my Mac Mini so I'm horny until I have it all working
Ewww! you should keep that stuff to yourself!
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I'd tried suggesting the iBook as a suitable "Amiga laptop" a few years ago to the official licensing contacts. They weren't interested in allowing it to be done. But, for those interested in collecting specs/documentation for hte PPC mac hardware...
http://amigamac.wikispaces.com/
Though considering how very very very very little was contributed by anyone other than myself (I did copy/paste a couple small things from an email or two, but I did have to do that much too) I doubt it's really worth it at this point. And I would absolutely LOVE OS4 on a laptop. So much I've been trying to figure out other altarnatives for years. Ain't an easy problem to solve...
P.S. Why all the jonesin for the Mac Mini? It's still tethered to a particular location. I want something portable.
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@billt
There's less variation in specs of the minis, so they're easier to support.
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@DiskDoctor
I think Colani1200 might mean you don't have the source code for os4 or permission to make a port. Although who you are supposed to get permission from is still to be decided in the courts...
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@ Ruud
That's what I thought of, too. Legal stuff.
OS4 source cannot and MUST NOT be retrieved, what I meant was reverse engineering some driver parts, compared against Mac stuff (OSX and Darwin available knowledge combined), plus morphos, pegasus... This is all connected. Everything is connected in IT. Though they differ much, both Windows and Unix seem POSIX system, don't they? But, still, it's a sin, I know.
Yes, OS4 copyright owner (and any rights to hack it heavily) is not decided today, despite of the fact there EXISTS one virtually, which I am NOT at all.
What I meant to do/planned was a kind of a prank development in a legal sense. It's like...
(...)
A couple continues arguing whose car is some, say, Ford Scorpio of theirs. The radio in the car is broken. Meanwhile, I simply break into it (not crashing anything) and fix the radio. Then I knock at the door and say "Hey, I fixed Your radio. You can sell it on ebay now 'cause it's highly profitable. If not, keep it, fine, I'll just tell my friends how to fix such problem if occurs..."
**
Well, messy comparison but the point is obvious; eventually AInc/Hyperion could thrash the project (some policy I suppose) but hey, I meant fun, not business. If someone seizes selling something, the decision may turn right or completely stupid.
But that is not my problem.
Or am I wrong?
Am I a thief thinking of that idea already?
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Legally an AmigaPPC emulator might be safer?
The whole idea ,shared by both Apple Computer and Amiga Inc,that they can force you to use the software only on hardware approved by them is repugnant.But apparently legal.
Ever read the labels on spray cans for instance,amazingly,U.S. federal law dictates that you must use products only as labeled.So don't be using that spray can of automobile touch-up paint on your Amiga case!
Will Shakespeare had a good idea.
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@ DiskDoctor
Why bother when there is an alternative: MorphOS will support the Mac Mini with the next major release.
Maybe even the Powerbook (no official word about the Pb yet).
Okay, MorphOS is not OS4 and taste differs, but even if you prefer OS4 MorphOS comes very close. And you don't have to deal with fishy licenses or doubtious hacking.
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There is no legal problem and why would you need the source code.
You can run whatever software you like on whatever hardware.
All that is missing is drivers. You dont need the source code to write drivers.
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A couple continues arguing whose car is some, say, Ford Scorpio of theirs. The radio in the car is broken. Meanwhile, I simply break into it (not crashing anything) and fix the radio. Then I knock at the door and say "Hey, I fixed Your radio. You can sell it on ebay now 'cause it's highly profitable. If not, keep it, fine, I'll just tell my friends how to fix such problem if occurs..."
Laws are probably different for computer files, but you being in my car without permission is tresspassing. Someone went through my car a couple months ago when I forgot to lock it. Don't care that nothing was taken (maybe a dollar in cash, not sure), I do not want strangers in my car again. Maybe it's a repair task I'm waiting to have time to enjoy tinkering myself, and you just took that opportunity away from me. You do not know that entering my car and doing ANYTHING truely is the right thing to do in my peculiar circumstances, maybe I WANT it that way or have a need for it to be that way. You don't need to understand, just leave my stuff alone, and risk my wrath should you do more harm than good. Don' tbelieve there is no chance of you doing harm in your example. Simply telling someone you've just violated their personal space may give them psychological issues for years to come. Or doing it and not telling them. Just being there at all can have bad effects on some people. My dad is unreasonably obsessed with guns and doesn't like to be beyond arms reach of one since someone was in his home a while ago, and he wasn't even there at the time. I'm now a little afraid of my dad.
On to computers, there's places where laws allow reverse engineering, and places that do not. If you live someplace that does, then do what you think needs done.
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You dont need the source code to write drivers.
If you're going to make a good quality driver, it helps to know and understand the API.
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Yes it does. But that a dev kit is available is it not ?
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depends on the driver. The graphics API is not public for example. Not sure about which ones are or are not.
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It's nice to see the discussion, though started by obviously contraversive topic, goes on :)
But to the point...
@ billt
'd tried suggesting the iBook as a suitable "Amiga laptop" a few years ago to the official licensing contacts. They weren't interested in allowing it to be done.
Well times change.
Look at the franchise's landscape nowadays.
AmigaOne is dead, AInc fights with Hyperion and as I can see, the chances are even, and so on...
So you never know. Besides it's just an idea.
@ recidivist
I didn't get the paint comparison completely but this is of minor importance.
My point is yes, I agree, that's why I gave one possible outcome which was that AInc officially releases it.. Then the version codename is OS4 MacMini edition.
So problem solved. Would be.
@ zylesea
I simply don't like alternatives.
I like the core stuff.
But that's nice about morphos you're saying, I didn't know that. Well that's a piece of news, indeed.
@ JJ
I think source is important (not necessarily mandatory, just good to have it or at least to consider) for API driver plugging. I guess or I am just dumb...
About the "whatever on whichever"; as recidivist says... you can do it UNLESS you're told not to do so, sometimes you're told and agree automatically by buying something.
So.. It depends.
@ billt
After my last post... I knew some US guy will crucify me for this dumb comparison I already said was...
Dude, You're 200% right; I'd kill somebody caught red handed on touching my car (or staring at it repeatedly) :)
Yes. The case was silly. There's a difference between private and corporate property. Solid and intelectual. I mean moral, not legal. breaking and entering, thrashing someone else's stuff is EVIL.
But having an adventure with a neglected piece of software... I would.
Eventually I would confess in the court.
My apologies, again. Hope you'll accept it.
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billt wrote:
I'd tried suggesting the iBook as a suitable "Amiga laptop" a few years ago to the official licensing contacts. They weren't interested in allowing it to be done. But, for those interested in collecting specs/documentation for hte PPC mac hardware...
http://amigamac.wikispaces.com/
Though considering how very very very very little was contributed by anyone other than myself (I did copy/paste a couple small things from an email or two, but I did have to do that much too) I doubt it's really worth it at this point. And I would absolutely LOVE OS4 on a laptop. So much I've been trying to figure out other altarnatives for years. Ain't an easy problem to solve...
I'd really like an OS 4 laptop too, but I'm not in a position to help collecting specs/documentation since I don't have an iBook.
Hans
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@Zylesea
Because not all of us want to run MorphOS on a mac mini, some of us would prefer to choose between the Os's, and would run Amiga OS natively on a mac mini, rather than MorphOS natively on mac mini.
BTW, various things on MorphOS remind me too much of Windows, I HATE that. Id rather use Linux, and nw that really does have similarities.
thats what I like about the Amiga OS, it is still, different in many ways versus the Normal approach idea.
Perhaps it is better said, that Amiga OS I am using right now, keeps me stress free whereby when I try to use Morph, Windows, Linux, they remind me toomuch of my enemy, windoze itself.
Again, just IMHO. :roll:
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Well, on the other hand...
PPC Macs are discontinued for three years so the only way to get them is an ebay or sth.
Also, there exists a hardware for OS4 already so actually why bother porting the OS to some discontinued and non-supported platform? We should also wait for the AInc trial outcome, this year maybe? That will, of course, gear up all platform's releases' pace.
Maybe it is better to focus development on something existing and supported? Like OS4 software which is needed, indeed. The more OS4 applications in total resemble an ordinary MacOSX or Windows desktop environment, the more OS4 platform becomes their full substitute...
Yeah also the legal issues, that project wouldn't be clean on that.
So maybe I should divert my efforts into some more applicable branches of support for the franchise and community.
Besides, any of you guys know the source of OS4-compliant software? (proprietary actually)
I got this link:
http://os4depot.net/
but still, more would be great.
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Also, there exists a hardware for OS4 already so actually why bother porting the OS to some discontinued and non-supported platform?
Because there exists not a freakin laptop for OS4.*
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Because there exists not a freakin laptop for OS4.*
Why portable?
MacMini is really small so you can grab it and bear wherever you want. Roughly...
I know your point. Haven't you been thinking on assembling one of those AmigaOne motherboards (or Sammantha, either one) with a LCD/TFT notebook screen and cover? It must be doable since all these are really tiny.
As I was saying... all PPC Macs became obsolete three years ago exactly so in one year maybe, most of the units will become eventually broken.
So there's not really much point investing some year or so in order to have half-legal AOS4 version working on abandoned Mac "Frankenstein" PPCs (if you're lucky).
As for the laptop itself... I am afraid there's no proprietary notebook hardware to be released under the franchise's umbrella because the system itself claims to be more embedded than desktop.
Unless of course, market share hits some visible figure.
So yes, only the do-yourself-at-home attitude would get you a solution you want.
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Why portable? MacMini is really small so you can grab it and bear wherever you want. Roughly...
Laptop sales now outnumber desktop sales in consumer market.
I don't want to be tethered to a monitor or outlet. I want to be able to use it on a bus or at the airport or at my parents' place without having to lug a pile of equipment with me. Mini ain't much useful without monitor, keyboard, etc. I don't see it as an acceptable portable solution, the small size is only a slight improvement to portability over an average sized desktop box.
So there's not really much point investing some year or so in order to have half-legal AOS4 version working on abandoned Mac "Frankenstein" PPCs (if you're lucky).
?? It is your thread & suggestion to get it completed ?? Why the sudden change of heart?
Even these old obsolete PPC Macs offer far superior performance than any "Amiga hardware" ever made even currently today. More features, more choices, PCI-Express in some, convenient portability in laptops. I'm really sick of wondering how long we'll have hardware available, and if there will ever be anything I want to buy (laptop).
I don't understand why making an embedded business model, because there's less demand that everything is Windows that way and thus some potential for a market outside of us, excludes chance of a laptop. All those trendy PC subnotebooks are running embedded chips. Linux is in mor eembedded stuff that not, yet is also quite usable on desktop/laptop, feature set allows that. Why should OS4 not want to scale that way too?
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?? It is your thread & suggestion to get it completed ?? Why the sudden change of heart?
Well... To be honest... My Mac Mini CD drive got broken finally yet yesterday :(
I think that would slow things down actually...
Also, I think when getting OS4 environment is actually POSSIBLE now, one might focus on some other stuff to do about it (I mean software maybe?). This is not the issue to me, whether start making something or not, the point is which should be made so that it provides greatest value added.
I do not say I wouldn't do it. I just said I got my morale lowered; why making MiniPPC port when I won't be able to run it anymore?
I might get into some project as much helpful instead.
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Gebrochen wrote:
BTW, various things on MorphOS remind me too much of Windows, I HATE that. Id rather use Linux, and nw that really does have similarities.
Oh... mophos remnind you too much to windows? and you hate morphos by it?
An OS with better compatibility with friendly OS utilities than amigaOS 4.1... give thanks for morphos to macmini please.
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My ibook is broken also. The LCD backlight went dark, and it became tethered to a desktop monitor for a couple months. This weekend I finally bothered to copy my stuff over to my PC laptop, so I do nto require the iBook for email right now. Since I do not require to use the iBook for things liek that, I can now set my sights on fixing the thing. I've replaced LCD lamps before. It's a pain, it's tedious, and I need to dig very deeply into it to find out what replacement lamp to order. Ugh... But I will get it fixed. It's a nice laptop. I recently put a much larger hard drive into it. (that was a tedious pain too)
Surely you can make time and save money to fix your Mini as well someday?
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Surely you can make time and save money to fix your Mini as well someday?
Someday maybe.
I hate suffering. My local Apple service bills 300$ for a stupid combo drive... I might of course do it myself but... this 300$ seems a missing brick in my purchase of samantha.
If I was to choose now I'd like to have OS4 home as soon as possible.
As I said; I might do something useful as well.
I hope.
But again someday...
Or just try doing as much as possible within this MacPPC project call it, until it needs to boot from a CD.
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Well, what about a cheap external usb CD/DVD drive? The firmware should handle that, so it should be possible to boot from that.
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zylesea wrote:
Well, what about a cheap external usb CD/DVD drive? The firmware should handle that, so it should be possible to boot from that.
I can confirm the intel Mac will boot from any external USB/Firewire CD/DVD drive or Hard Drive or USB stick :-)
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It's really not that hard to replace the optical drive in a mini, have a look here (http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac/Mac-Mini-PowerPC-/Optical-Drive/82/5/Page-1).
Replaced the combo drive in mine with an Optiarc AD-7633A.
Oh... and I only had my mini boot from an external fw drive, not usb.
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Golem!dk wrote:
Oh... and I only had my mini boot from an external fw drive, not usb.
A quick test with my old PowerBook G4, shows that the PPC machines seem to be Firewire boot only... Thank his noodliness for intel macs:-)
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Well... To be honest... My Mac Mini CD drive got broken finally yet yesterday :(
cheap Mini combo drive
http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-iBook-Mac-Mini-G4-CD-RW-DVD-ROM-Combo-8123A-New_W0QQitemZ350081236512QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0
or cheap superdrive
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Apple-Mac-Mini-Super-Drive-Apple-part-678-0555A_W0QQitemZ260333485184QQcmdZViewItemQQptZApple_Drives_and_Media
How to change it out
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac/Mac-Mini-PowerPC-/Optical-Drive/82/5/Page-1
All you need is a little money, some time and motivation. :)
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After reading this thread, I think we shud all just give up and get crappy windoze boxes.
btw, Bloodline, are you a pastafarian??
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/
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Regarding the legal status, take a look here:
Post number 9 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21319&forum=33&11#367076).
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/
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It would be better to build a proper emulator. What are we talking about anyway, some firmware called u-boot and what else? Perhaps a yellow dog or gentoo kernel could be booted to host the emulator?
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zylesea wrote:
@ DiskDoctor
Why bother when there is an alternative: MorphOS will support the Mac Mini with the next major release.
Maybe even the Powerbook (no official word about the Pb yet).
But there are pictures! :-)
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39336
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Gebrochen wrote:
BTW, various things on MorphOS remind me too much of Windows, I HATE that.
Wow, I wonder what that could be that makes MorphOS too similar to Windows?
Is it the Amiga system files structure, with C, S, L, Libs, etc directories?
Is it the Amiga file systems, device names, etc? The RAM: disk?
Is it the fact that the entire desktop and all MorphOS native programs uses MUI, the UI that quickly became the "standard" on Amiga after its release, used by many, many (if not most) Amiga programs?
Is it maybe the integrated Poseidon USB stack, which has defined Amiga's USB standard since... well, since Amiga got USB!
Is it the AHI audio? Or Cybergraphics? Amiga standards in RTA and RTG that has been part of Amiga since ages?
Or is it the many famous Amiga applications that Amigans have got used to during the years, 68k and PPC, that runs just fine at speeds never seen on any Amiga before, in exactly the way an Amigan would expect them to? (MorphOS has the best Amiga compatibility among all NG Amiga OS's)
Well, I can't think of anything more right now that's part of the behavior, interaction with the user, or anything else that could possibly make a user feel like MorphOS equals to Windows in any way.
That comment of yours really made my day! I mean, wow... :roll:
I'll tell you what reminds me of Windows; the installation process of OS4, and having to open various different configuration applications to make system settings that would really have benefited from being set in a centralized manner.
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@DiskDoctor
Also, there exists a hardware for OS4 already so actually why bother porting the OS to some discontinued and non-supported platform?
Hmm, maybe because of this:
OS4 with its only existing hardware (http://www.informatique-imm.lu/catalogue/F_grp_21_25-1.html), using an Efika class CPU, comes at a price that almost equals a Quad-Core PowerStation (http://us.fixstars.com/products/powerstation/) with 2x 2.5GHz "G5" CPU's, 4x CPU cores, 4x Altivec, 8x FPU's, 4x 1MB L2 cache, 1 PCIe x16, 2 PCIe x8, 1 PCI-X, etc, etc.
Absurd if you ask me...
Even the slowest Mac Mini would run circles around the OS4 hardware, it's easily available, and at very reasonable costs.
Was that enough reasonsn? ;-)
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tomazkid wrote:
Regarding the legal status, take a look here:
Post number 9 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21319&forum=33&11#367076).
Possession can't be illegal. Spreading it might, but not owning it.
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Lorraine wrote:
Tension wrote:
After reading this thread, I think we shud all just give up and get crappy windoze boxes.
btw, Bloodline, are you a pastafarian??
Nah, you guys forget the great fsm if you want to show you're serious. Become true followers of the Jedi code, and may the force be with you too. It's way more believable, more fun and with more followers to boot.
They even made a couple of film trilogies about it and everythin' :lol:
I observe and respect the teachings of FSM... But on the 2000 census I did state my Faith as Jedi... Like everyone else I know :-D
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By not porting the OS to PPC Mac hardware they are creating a market for SAM. There would be no market for SAM if a PPC Mac Mini version of OS 4 existed. At work I've junked equipment faster than SAM.
The low end SAM board is equivalent to Mac hardware produced in '99, the "high end" SAM is equivalent to Mac equipment produced in '01. SAM is underwhelming to say the least.
My mobile phone has a 620MHz ARM CPU, only slightly slower than the high end SAM!
Once again is the only thing unique about SAM the uboot firmware?
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@Persia
Finally, someone on this board who has the courage to tell the truth! And I might add that the price for a SAM is freakin' outrageous!
I got flamed for days when I made similar comments on AmigaWorld.net. Made me think that the makers of SAM also have a controlling interest in that web site.
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ferrellsl wrote:
@Persia
Finally, someone on this board who has the courage to tell the truth! And I might add that the price for a SAM is freakin' outrageous!
Unfortunately it's true, unless some kind of promotion as this (http://www.sam440.com/eng/summerfollies.html) happens again, than it is "just" very high.
I think the price is, indeed, stupid from a consumer's perspective. It reminds me of times when I worked in b2b hardware sales. Stuff like printservers or serial converters were 3-5 x more expensive than some other brands' consumer-targeted products with similar specs(!). It is understandable since such items are usually sold in various sorts of tenders worth millions $$ in total, in heavy amounts, being largely discounted, though.
So maybe the case is that ACube maintains industrial/b2b offer (does anybody have a link to some final solution, not necessarily with AOS4 in it?) while simultaneously forgetting/neglecting/scr*wing regular consumers?
Funny, if they dropped the price, say, 30%, they would surely feel the impact. Also, manufacturing and assembling such stuff usually doesn't exceed 20% of the SRP, in this case I'm sure it's below 10%. Or if it is more, why are they not outsourcing the whole thing to China or another freaky place to hit the price down?
What's that margin for while your can hardly make profits out of it?
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@tomazkid
Possession of copyrighted material is not illegal. Redistribution without license, on the other hand....
Regardless, you don't need "Moana." Anyone serious about running OS4 on unlicensed hardware would write their own bootloader and their own drivers. (Let's be clear about the usage of unlicensed here. By unlicensed, I mean hardware not licensed for distribution with OS4.)
Anyone serious about writing Picasso96 display drivers can probably get the latest DDK from the authors--in my experience, they're good folk--unless Hyperion purchased the rights to Picasso96 outright rather than just licensing them.
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Amiga Ones, Sam440s and any future hardware machines are nothing but hardware dongles. They are there to prevent piracy, which would exist if one could just buy mac mini and put in a cd. More than half of folks here would no doubt do it. One has seen piracy on the classic amigas, it is no wonder that a great deal of software developers got pi**ed and left the amiga market (before commodore's demise).
You need Sam440 to keep people honest and buy it with the hardware, instead of just making a copy of the OS. (if you do not like that then get another Amiga alternative OS).
However, I do agree that sam440 is underpowered and something better should be available.
Prices - well, you want real support by real companies? Then yeah they will be higher than for Mac or PC as this Amiga Market is small and has always been dwindling.
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@terminator4
I respectfully disagree. Perhaps if Hyperion, Amiga, et al treated their customers less like thieves and more like customers, they'd have better luck selling them product.
There are some folks involved (or previously involved) with both companies, however, who are quite friendly, quite helpful, and an asset to the community. Let's hope they stay involved in the future, regardless of what becomes of Hyperion and Amiga.
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I personally think Hyperion would have a better chance if they ported OS 4.1 to x86/x64.
Let's face it, Intel hardware is more readily available and would most likely open up a huge user base.
It would also enable developers to make write software for OS 4.1 with minimal outlay. If it ran in Vmware, even better!
Imagine where Linux would be if it could only be run on PPC or some other obscure hardware platform - nobody would bother.
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There would not be any big need for a more powerfull AOS4 HW if we had Clustering SW up-to-date.
Open source clustering:
http://bonsai.ims.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~mdehoon/software/cluster/software.htm
http://svn.oscar.openclustergroup.org/trac/oscar
3D modeller etc should run fine on embedded PPC if the rendering itself is done in a cheap cluster. (like screamernet did in the 90's)
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You'd be much better of running and supporting Linux or some other form of unix on your Mac Mini if you don't like OSX, there's no chance OS4 will be released fully in the future...
The only other OS which I think (hope?) might be released is MorphOS, but i'm skeptical about even that... and even when it is released the license price is extortionate, considering the Euro -> GBP exchange rate is even worse now.
BTW this is coming from the owner of a PPC 1.5ghz G4 Mini, i'd like OS4.x on the Mini as much as the next person but it just isn't going to happen IMHO.
Hyperion would prefer us to buy overpriced underpowered hardware like the Sam440 than port to Efika or Mac Mini and make it accessible for more people... :-(