Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: on May 05, 2003, 09:54:36 AM
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yeah, any comments on the os for the project? i plan to use amiga 4000/040 for the apache, some ftp daemon (which one?) and some telnet access (what server?),
and the most important, where to get an ethernet card that will support such setup and would plug into d-link router corectly? any comments welcome :)
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Although the setup might be somewhat "low" for a web server, I think it'll be ok.
Get an X-Surf ethernet card and you'll be ok.
For ftp you could try wu-ftpd, ditch telnet and setup ssh instead.
Also check out http://www.sixgirls.org/reva.html
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@smok3
yeah, any comments on the os for the project? i plan to use amiga 4000/040 for the apache, some ftp daemon (which one?) and some telnet access (what server?),
and the most important, where to get an ethernet card that will support such setup and would plug into d-link router corectly? any comments welcome :)
Last question first. For ethernet, you can have a C= 4065 (very rare) 2065 (old, but reliable) Ariadne (rare) or an X-Surf. None of these will do greater than 10Mbit. All but the X-Surf are obsolete and would have to be bought secondhand. The X-Surf can be bought online at Jens' Site (http://jschoenfeld.com) and all will need a third party TCP stack. Only one TCP stack (Miami) will handle the DHCP needed by your cable modem, and it can no longer be purchased.
As for the rest of the stuff, most of it is available as public domain software, except maybe the telnet server. I can't offer any advice in this regard as I haven't played with telnet on the Amiga in quite some years.
Try asking the guys at Sixgirls Computing Labs. They run an A4000/060 as a web server. SIXGIRLS (http://reva.sixgirls.org)
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smok3 wrote:
yeah, any comments on the os for the project? i plan to use amiga 4000/040 for the apache, some ftp daemon (which one?) and some telnet access (what server?),
and the most important, where to get an ethernet card that will support such setup and would plug into d-link router corectly? any comments welcome :)
Depending on the level of content you want to serve, you might want to consider a lighter httpd (thttpd, for instance). NetBSD includes ftpd and telnetd, and the OpenSSH suite is available from pkgsrc. (You'd want to do some research to pick a suitably fast cipher for ssh/sftp.) The modern telnetd has some options for encrypted authentication that you'll want to research.
It really depends on the purpose the machine is meant to serve. The native tools may or may not have their flaws, but 'jails' and proper monitoring will likely serve you better than simply picking the package with the biggest security hype.
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i will call it 'experimental' server then, tnx for the answer. (for better picture: i also have fastlane z3 scsi card and some pretty fast scsi drives, maybe that will help a bit, in any case my old a4000 is doing nothing and i cant allowe that ;)
Only one TCP stack (Miami) will handle the DHCP needed by your cable modem, and it can no longer be purchased.
would that mean i cant use netbsd stack? or can i use amiga&miami prior to booting to netbsd?
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Depending on the level of content you want to serve, you might want to consider a lighter httpd (thttpd, for instance).
i need a server with some sort of ssi (dont need perl, php or any active server side language), also i will 'disable' sendmail, since i wont have a lot of time to administer the server. will take a look at thttpd.
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smok3 wrote:
i will call it 'experimental' server then, tnx for the answer. (for better picture: i also have fastlane z3 scsi card and some pretty fast scsi drives, maybe that will help a bit, in any case my old a4000 is doing nothing and i cant allowe that ;)
Crypto, active content (PHP, mod-ruby/rhtml, mod-python or whatever) and software builds will be CPU-limited; everything else will probably be nemory/disk/network-limited... meaning that, lightly loaded, you should certainly see transfers near peak 10baseT rates if the network card is up to it. (I have no idea if the bottlenecks of the X-Surf are in software or hardware, if it has any; the chipset it's based on certainly worked great in the 486s that were *my* experimental boxes...)
Don't let me scare you off Apache if your goal is to have fun with it; it should probably be fine. (Okay, it was fine on a i486DX2-50... an 040/25 seems to be roughly half as fast, so it might be a little cramped, and building it from source might take an extra day or two. Just pretend you're on a PDP-11, or some other Iron of yesteryear. Network servers aren't really complex at all- they *did* run on such hardware.)
Only one TCP stack (Miami) will handle the DHCP needed by your cable modem, and it can no longer be purchased.
would that mean i cant use netbsd stack? or can i use amiga&miami prior to booting to netbsd?
Whoever wrote that was a bit confused- under NetBSD, it's all handled by NetBSD, and dhclient is certainly a part of the base install. That would apply to the Amiga side of things, of course... but if you've got a Linksys box or similar, you could always put the machine on the static "DMZ" address behind the NAT.
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Whoever wrote that was a bit confused- under NetBSD, it's all handled by NetBSD, and dhclient is certainly a part of the base install.
yeah, was my moment of weaknes...
i got some1 offering me a commodore A2065 card, any thoughts on that product?
tia.
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I meant the 'confused' bit for Desmon. ;-)
This reference (http://www.nordicglobal.com/etherrec.html) is the best I could find; no experience, myself.
There's this (http://news.gw.com/netbsd.ports.amiga/3234), but no info on whether he resolved the issue per the suggestion or was up against driver bitrot (the former would be my guess, but then, I would've expected Knoppix's Linux kernel to select the PHY on my HomePNA card properly.).
The manpage for the driver (http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?le+4.amiga+NetBSD-current) lists a few cards of comparable vintage.
Probably fine, if you don't mind 1. using coax, or finding a 10bT transceiver, 2. possibly sticking a 486 fan on it?, and 3. you're paying less than for an X-Surf or more modern card.
This post (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a2065+performance&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=361D325A.MD-0.198.swift%40ieighty.net&rnum=1) mentions 750k/s throughput from a 2065, presumably under AmigaOS.
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Hello there. If you can afford it, you might be better off getting a mediator card and then getting a 100mbit
pci network card., instead of using a zorro based
network card. As for the software try getting Miami-DX
if you can. Miami-DX is the most powerful TCP/IP Stack
on the Amiga. I own Two X-Surf Cards. I might be
willing to part with the second one.
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destro wrote:
Hello there. If you can afford it, you might be better off getting a mediator card and then getting a 100mbit
pci network card.
So far as I know, no Amiga PCI bridges are yet supported by NetBSD, the Prometheus being/having been the one with the best hope for support, given the various manufacturers' takes on developer relations?
That said, it would certainly be a good solution were he to stick with AmigaOS exclusively.
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My A4000T currently runs an FTP server 24/7.
Using MiamiDX and AriadneII ethernet, gives pretty good results.
I'd highly recommend RC-FTPd by Robin Cloutman (look on Aminet). It's easy to configure, has a nice GUI and performs well.
I'm trying to get a web server running as well, but Apache is giving me lots of grief. There are a few other more basic alternatives which I might look into next.
MiamiDX comes with a basic Telnet server and seperate client, but I haven't used it much. You might be better with one from Aminet?
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destro: I own Two X-Surf Cards.
of course iam interested, please send me an offer on 'smoker at email dot si', but remember that this is a low-budget project...
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Castellen wrote:
I'd highly recommend RC-FTPd by Robin Cloutman (look on Aminet). It's easy to configure, has a nice GUI and performs well.
iam familiar with the proggy, have used it in the past, but at that time upload speed was faster than download one, so i guess that is fixed in the later releases?
and yes, iam not aware of any cool www server for the amiga os. (and iam not ready to fiddle with the *nix apache port, i mean why not just use some sort of nix then ;))
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Floid wrote:
I meant the 'confused' bit for Desmon. ;-)
This reference (http://www.nordicglobal.com/etherrec.html) is the best I could find; no experience, myself.
There's this (http://news.gw.com/netbsd.ports.amiga/3234), but no info on whether he resolved the issue per the suggestion or was up against driver bitrot (the former would be my guess, but then, I would've expected Knoppix's Linux kernel to select the PHY on my HomePNA card properly.).
The manpage for the driver (http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?le+4.amiga+NetBSD-current) lists a few cards of comparable vintage.
Probably fine, if you don't mind 1. using coax, or finding a 10bT transceiver, 2. possibly sticking a 486 fan on it?, and 3. you're paying less than for an X-Surf or more modern card.
This post (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a2065+performance&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=361D325A.MD-0.198.swift%40ieighty.net&rnum=1) mentions 750k/s throughput from a 2065, presumably under AmigaOS.
ill do some reading, tnx again :-D
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A couple of comments on this thread...
You can buy Miami TCP/IP commercial version if you look on E-bay, people who no longer use it sell it...
Also, Elbox's Mediator card will give you cheap acccess to a PC ethernet card
"ACCESSORIES:
It works perfectly with the whole range of network, sound, modem and ISDN cards;
MPEG-2, MP3 decoders and TV cards."
---From Softhut
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jeffimix wrote:
You can buy Miami TCP/IP commercial version if you look on E-bay, people who no longer use it sell it..
uhmm, what makes you think iam using amiga os ? (in alternative os forum and when the first word in the thread is netbsd)
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smok3 wrote:
uhmm, what makes you think iam using amiga os ? (in alternative os forum and when the first word in the thread is netbsd)
Thread chatter keeps bumping it to the front page, and it seems everyone would rather you stick with the platform.
Or maybe they don't know what NetBSD is! (http://netbsd.org/Misc/about.html) :shocked:
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i got some1 offering me a commodore A2065 card, any thoughts on that product?
I can't speak to the quality of the bsd drivers for this card, but I have one in my 4000/060 and it works quite well. (Much better luck than I had with a 1st gen X-surf!) Under AmigaOS it's supported in Miami and Genesis. So hardware wise, at least, your in good shape using the A2065 on a 4000.
uhmm, what makes you think iam using amiga os ? (in alternative os forum and when the first word in the thread is netbsd)
Yeah, I think they missed that part. I will ask why you chose netbsd, though... Amiga OS has most everything you'd need for the project you're working on, and really it's just not an Amiga if it isn't running Amiga OS. Besides, didn't netbsd recently drop the Amiga m68k line after lack of interest?
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Ilwrath wrote:
Yeah, I think they missed that part. I will ask why you chose netbsd, though... Amiga OS has most everything you'd need for the project you're working on, and really it's just not an Amiga if it isn't running Amiga OS. Besides, didn't netbsd recently drop the Amiga m68k line after lack of interest?
Well, you can also look at it as a continuation of the AMIX tradition.
NetBSD didn't drop Amiga/68k - that was OpenBSD, and it's an example of the differences between the... three/3.5/four major BSD projects. NetBSD's focus is on continuing/extending the BSD lineage through wide platform support and an open development model. (Read: Major alterations to NetBSD must generally survive on/not break the codebases for the platforms supported.) OpenBSD was forked from NetBSD, and originally chose to preserve the Amiga port, among others- but their focus is on security, and so they've decided to allow the (undermaintained, for lack of knowledgeable volunteers) Amiga port succumb to its bitrot; they (http://deadly.org/article.php3?sid=20030417181810) have (http://deadly.org/article.php3?sid=20030421190834) bigger (http://deadly.org/article.php3?sid=20030422123107) things (http://openbsd.org/press.html) to worry (http://www.benzedrine.cx/pf.html) about (http://kerneltrap.org/node.php?id=573) right now.*
FreeBSD, in turn, began sort of oblong to NetBSD,** and has since taken on a sort of staid, RedHat-like role, supporting i386 (and soon a few other platforms) for what's supposed to be stable, 'production' use... and for now, Darwin attracts those who equate free labor for Apple with Saving the Universe. (Okay, that's a bad joke. A lot of developers seem to enjoy Darwin because 1. many of its outstanding issues are probably 'easy stuff' long-since tackled in the other systems, and 2. it, and the commercial OS based on it, are 'different' enough that people are finding it a playground for ideas that couldn't be made to fit in the other projects, for whatever reason. Plus, Apple does pay their developers (http://people.freebsd.org/~jkh/).)
Perhaps that mudd- er, clears things up? In any case, NetBSD isn't known for dropping projects; at worst, they end up in perpetual stalled development (http://netbsd.org/Ports/hpcsh/) or limbo (http://netbsd.org/Ports/amigappc/) - which *does* mean anyone can jump in at a later point and improve them. (Not that the linked amigappc attempt seems to *have* any code that made it to the tree.) Even OpenBSD isn't removing the code from their server (http://www.openbsd.org/amiga.html); they're just not going to roll new developments into it without anyone to catch integration issues and tell them if it works.
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*Each word is an individual link, there. Know all the deadly.org ones don't make it obvious.
**Bang forehead on link to continue (http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/share/misc/bsd-family-tree?rev=1.72&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup); history of the death/rebirth of the original 386BSD project here (http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/history.html)...and a timeline including BSD and Linux development over here (http://www.robotwisdom.com/linux/timeline.html).
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Bang forehead on link to continue;
I found the BSD *nix timeline here quite informative. (If not confusing -- it looked like a redneck family tree, what with all the inbreeding and such!) But it does, indeed appear that I had my BSD's confused, and it was OpenBSD that recently announced that it wasn't developing a new Amiga release.
But I'd still say it's sacrilidge to run an Amiga without AmigaOS nowadays. ;-)
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At least OpenBSD did :~/
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At least OpenBSD did :~/
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@smok3
and yes, iam not aware of any cool www server for the amiga os.
Surely you must have heard of gW3S? :-)
gW3S Homepage (http://carls.1av10.nu/w3s/)
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Only one TCP stack (Miami) will handle the DHCP needed by your cable modem, and it can no longer be purchased.
would that mean i cant use netbsd stack? or can i use amiga&miami prior to booting to netbsd?
Whoever wrote that was a bit confused- under NetBSD, it's all handled by NetBSD, and dhclient is certainly a part of the base install. That would apply to the Amiga side of things, of course... but if you've got a Linksys box or similar, you could always put the machine on the static "DMZ" address behind the NAT.
Sorry about all the nested quotes, but if you read the original question, there's NO mention of NetBSD at all. I simply thought he was trying to run it all under AmigaOS.
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Desmon wrote:
Sorry about all the nested quotes, but if you read the original question, there's NO mention of NetBSD at all. I simply thought he was trying to run it all under AmigaOS.
Yep. Wasn't trying to be rude, just keeping the facts straight.
gw3s does look quite cool. Anyone know if it survives on Regina REXX? Then he could run the same site off AmigaOS *and* NetBSD. (I've always liked REXX as a concept, but never used it much. Don't have any clue how socket access works, and/or any ARexx vs. ANSI REXX caveats, if there are any.)
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@Floid
I tried to rewrite gW3S v1.0 for Linux using Regina, but the only ways I could think of to execute CGI scripts and sending the query strings was a major security hole.
Source code for the Linux version (http://carls.1av10.nu/w3s/lw3s)
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carls wrote:
Surely you must have heard of gW3S? :-)
gW3S Homepage (http://carls.1av10.nu/w3s/)
whats interesting is this:
The site www.carls.1av10.nu is running Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) mod_become/1.3 on Linux.
:-D
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@smok3
Yeah, I know :-)
I don't have a good enough connection at home (only a Cable Modem) to host my own site - plus I don't like the humming sound of a PSU fan when I go to bed (which probably makes me less of a hacker). So I happily run my site at a friend's hobby-hosting project.
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carls wrote:
I don't like the humming sound of a PSU fan when I go to bed (which probably makes me less of a hacker). So I happily run my site at a friend's hobby-hosting project.
hehe, ok i didnt want to be rude or anything (also i didnt figured that your a dev), anyway i still lack the ethernet card... :-D