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Offline Amiga_Nut

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 12:47:18 AM »
Quote from: save2600;552197
It's always amazed me how much time, energy, R&D, etc. was wasted on things like the C128, C128D, 1581, 1571, C264, C65 and whatever else those dummies (C=) had on their plates when they should have been putting all that effort into the Amiga all along. IMO. Okay, *maybe* not the C128, but that machine was a little too late in its arrival. Guess that happens when you're used to competing with yourself.  lol


The initial brief of what turned into the 264 series was for a $50-70 dollar 16kb full colour machine like a spiritual successor to the old VIC-20. What was released as the Commodore 16 is what this machine was supposed to be....I think we can all agree that had the C16 been $60/£50 combined with the C64 @ $199 and the Amiga 500 style machine launching BEFORE the high price niche A1000 machine then they would have had the strongest line-up of any computer company ever.

Of course Jack left and we ended up with the Plus4 at C64 prices, the A1000 at top end price for mass market (so effectively leaving the market free for Atari ST for nearly 2 years in total) and the Commodore 128D 8bit with no improved SID/VIC-II/1mz 6510 speed for the price of an Atari ST with 8mhz 68k and a superior Mac-a-like than the original $3K monochrome Mac! What a travesty.
 

Offline scuzzb494

Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2010, 12:57:23 AM »
Quote from: KThunder;552304
The 128 was cool, but 85 was totally the wrong time for it. In 85 cp/m was dead, msdos killed it mac buried it and amiga and atari pissed on the grave. In 82 or maybe even 83 a dual boot capable c64 with cp/m would have definitely turned heads. It probably wouldnt have saved cp/m, not by itself but it would have sold.

I thought the plus4 was an interesting design but it was poorly implemented. Better, more up to date software like the plus4 had but on a cart would have been better. The video chip had some good features with lots of colors but it didnt have sprites or a sid chip.


Interesting... I was still using CP/M in 1992 and BASIC... but not on an Amiga. I knew quite a few folk using CP/M. Machines like the Amstrad PCW range which I used in my office had Malard BASIC and CP/M plus Locoscript. Wasn`t a problem... things were different then though.

You can`t blame Commodore for the 264 range the styling with the directional arrows was picking up some of the trends in MSX machines. The C64 was just too popular. Even the 64C  was dumped in Germany cus they liked the old music keyboard that fit over the standard C64 keys. They then bought out the C64G which was the C in the old breadbin

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/a_scuzz_jul2005/a_scuzz_jul30_043.jpg

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/car_0706/car_0706_215.jpg

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/car_0706/car_0706_123.jpg

C64C and C64G

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/amiga_scuzz25.htm

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/amiga_scuzz183.htm

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/addons/a155_addon01.jpg

scuzz

Offline KThunder

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2010, 12:57:38 AM »
People talk about Steve Jobs and some of the crazy stuff he did at apple but the undeniable fact was that he had a vision: the mac. The mac was his future and nothing else could distract him from that. He even purposely killed the apple II because of it.
Atari and especially commodore didnt have that vision so they limped along with half supported systems and computer lines, no vision, no dedication.
IBM didnt need that kind of vision they had dozens of manufacturers building different versions of their system. They could afford to lead or follow or whatever.
Oh yeah?!?
Well your stupid bit is set,
and its read only!
(my best geek putdown)
 

Offline scuzzb494

Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2010, 01:07:08 AM »
Quote from: KThunder;552321
People talk about Steve Jobs and some of the crazy stuff he did at apple but the undeniable fact was that he had a vision: the mac. The mac was his future and nothing else could distract him from that. He even purposely killed the apple II because of it.
Atari and especially commodore didnt have that vision so they limped along with half supported systems and computer lines, no vision, no dedication.
IBM didnt need that kind of vision they had dozens of manufacturers building different versions of their system. They could afford to lead or follow or whatever.


You don`t expect me to agree on that.... :-)  On two counts.

Lets not go there......

Other than to say its one thing to have a vision, its another just to be bloody minded... Even if the idea was crap in the first place. If those guys working with Dave Haynie had been able to complete their work the world of computing would be way in advance of any gimmicky Micantoosh....

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

Offline Hell Labs

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 02:04:36 AM »
Quote from: scuzzb494;552325

Other than to say its one thing to have a vision, its another just to be bloody minded... Even if the idea was crap in the first place. If those guys working with Dave Haynie had been able to complete their work the world of computing would be way in advance of any gimmicky Micantoosh.


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« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 03:31:18 AM by Argo »
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Offline KThunder

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 02:18:33 AM »
Quote from: scuzzb494;552325
You don`t expect me to agree on that.... :-)  On two counts.

Lets not go there......

Other than to say its one thing to have a vision, its another just to be bloody minded... Even if the idea was crap in the first place. If those guys working with Dave Haynie had been able to complete their work the world of computing would be way in advance of any gimmicky Micantoosh....

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com


You might not agree with Job's vision but he had one thing he wanted the mac. he didnt want to develop for the apple II anymore in software or hardware. we wanted the mac. (stephen wozniak wanted the apple II still)
the other companies had no real vision. the vision for the amiga was quickly diluted with new c64 models and pc clones etc. same with atari. Apple had a cleaner break with the past and a more focused intent with the mac.
steve jobs was nutz though
@hell labs
who were you calling a douche? Dave Haynie, Steve Jobs or someone else
Oh yeah?!?
Well your stupid bit is set,
and its read only!
(my best geek putdown)
 

Offline save2600

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2010, 04:05:18 AM »
Just funnin' w/ you Hell Labs  ;)  Cheers!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 02:26:04 PM by save2600 »
 

Offline CommodoreMan

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2010, 06:23:45 AM »
muussssst stooooop waaaaanking !!! FRAP FRAP FRAP!


Quote from: save2600;552371
... content deleted by moderator ltstanfo at save2600 request... reason - offensive / TOS violation ...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 07:37:02 PM by ltstanfo »
 

Offline Arkhan

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2010, 10:47:12 AM »
Quote from: CommodoreMan;552387
muussssst stooooop waaaaanking !!! FAP FAP FAP!



fixed!

Man , if you sound like frap frap frap, you might wanna get that looked at :D
I am a negative, rude, prick.  


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Offline scuzzb494

Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2010, 01:40:28 PM »
Quote from: KThunder;552350
You might not agree with Job's vision but he had one thing he wanted the mac. he didnt want to develop for the apple II anymore in software or hardware. we wanted the mac. (stephen wozniak wanted the apple II still)
the other companies had no real vision. the vision for the amiga was quickly diluted with new c64 models and pc clones etc. same with atari. Apple had a cleaner break with the past and a more focused intent with the mac.
steve jobs was nutz though
@hell labs
who were you calling a douche? Dave Haynie, Steve Jobs or someone else


As I say not sure of that... The Amiga was, is, will always be a quite unique piece of equipment and if you look at the tech rooms featured on the deathbed vigil tapes you can see the extent of research being done. This was more about poor business management and selling the kit and sorting out supply chains. The actual technology was sound and was superior to anything Apple could produce [ novelty-wear is what I call Mac crap ]. Mr Haynie along with all the crew building the Amiga were 'gods' and it was a very sad day for computing the day that Commodore closed the facility. It breaks my heart just thinking about it, cus everything that has flowed from this point is utter junk. And I mean that.

I have no respect for anything codged together by tin box manufacturers and certainly have no time what what so ever for Crapintosh novelty-wear. Sadly the world thinks computing is about, Twitter, YouTube, FaceBook, film and music downloads and other such nonsense. It has become an entertainment facility in homes.....  It can be that... but please give me back something I can really enjoy and get under the hood with... And that means hardwear and softwear. Not emulation or OSs running on archaic outdated 25 year old concepts like the tin box. We can do much better than this. The Amiga was about design, not only of OS but also the hardwear. And they were brilliant at it.  

Anyway... I would never ever be critical of Commodore or Amiga or Dave Haynie. They gave me the best years of my life. And for that I am truly grateful.


scuzz
Still crazy after all these years. And still using his Amiga ' hardwear '.

Offline Skyraker

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 03:05:53 PM »
From Old-computers.com

Among the Commodore news from the Summer CES 1984 was the renaming of the C=264 to Plus/4. This renaming came along with a slight change in the built-in software: you could not choose between many different programs anymore, but each Plus/4 was delivered with the 3-plus-1 software.

The built-in software is not worth the silicon it is etched in: a word processor (only with 40 columns and can manage documents with only 99 lines of 77 columns), a very small spreadsheet (only 17 columns and 50 lines), a poor graph generator program (which can graphically display data from the sheets, but only in text mode) and a small database (999 records with 17 fields each and only 38 characters by field).
Most of these programs can only be used with a floppy drive.

The Plus/4 can use some of the peripherals of the C=64 or the VIC-20, like the famous MPS-801 dot-matrix printer and the 1541 Disk Drive run well with it but it can't use C=64 programs (unfortunately, it cannot use the same joysticks & Datasette as the C=64/VIC-20).

This machine wasn't built to be a competitor of the C=64, but it wasn’t meant to replace it either. It has an improved BASIC compared to the C=64’s, this one features graphic and sound instructions and a built-in assembler, but has lost lots of interesting C-64 features like great sound chip (SID: Sound Interface Device) or hardware sprites.

The Commodore Plus/4 was an error in the Commodore marketing policy and had no success.



Very interesting extra information from Dave Haynie  who designed the Commodore Plus-4:

I was one of priviledged few to actually help develop this little gem. I started work at Commodore in October of 1983, my second job out of college, after four months of boredom at General Electric. I was hired to help out on the "TED" project.

TED, you see, was an all-in-one cheap computer chip. It improved on a number of the things that were done in the C64, so you didn't need extra SRAMs, you got more color, etc. Ok, so the sound sucked. Anyway, this project was started by Jack Tramiel as an answer to the Timex Sinclair, as well as a replacement for the VIC-20 (eg, a real computer that sold for about $100). The basic idea was to sell a 64K computer, or close, to that market. The result was the membrane keyboard version called the C116.

By the time I was hired, big nonsense was in full swing. For unknown reasons, the TED project was split into several machines. There was the C264, which had the full complement of stuff, 64K of RAM, etc. The C232 was a scaled-down version, with 32K and no serial port (TED systems, unlike C64s, has a real 6551 hardware ACIA).

Eventually, there was the CV364, which I was in charge of for the two weeks between it becoming an official, for production unit, and it being cancelled forever. Take the C264, add a new version of the Magic Voice (we called it Tragic Voice) speech synthesizer module, add a numeric keypad, and you have your CV364. I think I still have one of the two units actually made with production plastic (it was shown at the '84 Winter CES, but with mock-up casework).

The TED systems had some advantages over the C64. BASIC 3.5 has real graphics commands in it. It used a dynamic ROM banking scheme, so you got nearly 64K in BASIC (this was later used on the C128). ROM cartridges, and an internal ROM slot, could also be banked. Orginally, the C264 was to be offered with Your Choice of ROM option; EasyCalc, LOGO, etc. Later, it got the horrible 3+1 package, and was redubbed the PLUS/4. Some time later, a scaled down 16K version was introduced as the C16.

All in all, the PLUS/4 wasn't a bad computer, when compared to others at the same price range. What was wrong with it? The C64. Why make an incremental, incompatible step above the C64. Everyone who tried to take on the C64 was laid to waste: Atari, Coleco Adam, Mattel Aquarius, etc. How could the PLUS/4 do any better.

The rational becomes clear when you look at the company politics. Summer of 1983, TED is the answer to Sinclair and replacing the VIC-20. Fall 1983, we have an explosion of TED models. Winter 1984, Jack Tramiel leaves Commodore. Summer 1984, his sons follow him, after pushing the PLUS/4 through. The result: Commodore is left confused about product.
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Offline ltstanfo

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2010, 03:20:19 PM »
Folks,

This is your first and only warning.  Please stick to topic and drop the side comments.  Joking or not, it's too easy for people to misunderstand what you think you are trying to convey.  Any more reports to the admins and this thread will be closed.  Enough said... I hope.

Thanks,
Ltstanfo
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Offline Skyraker

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2010, 03:21:44 PM »
Quote from: ltstanfo;552503
Folks,

This is your first and only warning.  Please stick to topic and drop the side comments.  Joking or not, it's too easy for people to misunderstand what you think you are trying to convey.  Any more reports to the admins and this thread will be closed.

Thanks,
Ltstanfo



Ah you pay peanuts you get monk..... ;)
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Offline JGB

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2010, 04:08:18 PM »
I have a Plus/4.  Shortly after realizing how limited the 3 + 1 software was and buying the better word processing cart, I realized that both the 3 + 1 and the cart were ROM based and I swapped the ROMs.  That made a big improvement.  I had a small TV that I used with the Plus/4 (toted in a milk crate) to give me a portable computer.  There was a great jet fighter game, which included a spoken female voice of the plane advising of the damage taken on, which was really very cool for the time.  I got many hand cramps holding the base of the joystick while I pulled the plane in various directions.
The included BASIC was fun to use.  I even wrote a program to help translate C64 BASIC to Plus/4 BASIC (the main difference being that Peeks and POKEs needed different addresses from one version to the other).
The power supply started dieing while I was finishing my final master's paper, to the point that I would print one single page, turn it off to cool, wait 5 minutes, repeat.  It only took all night to print the 40 - 60 pages!  I finally chiseled my way into the PS and replaced the 7805 5V. regulator.
Now it sits in the original box in the garage.
 

Offline Plaz

Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2010, 12:01:27 AM »
@JGB

That was a great first post.


I for one thought the Plus/4 and C16 were complete wastes of time and effort back in 1984. I recall the C16 being talked about as a cheap competitor for Apple in the classrooms. That sounded like a good idea, but fizzled. On the other hand I thought the C128 was a nice step up from the C64. Unfortunately for the 128, the Amiga was released within months.

Plaz
 

Offline recidivist

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Re: Never seen a C264 Before...
« Reply #29 from previous page: April 10, 2010, 12:47:36 AM »
I,too, wish Commodore had focused the time money and energy of the TED project into getting the C128 out sooner-and including 64VDC as standard would have been good.
 Commodore muddied its own waters;oh and also jumping into make Commodore IBM compatibles was kind of a strange way of committing corporate suicide.