New ppc board by Acube/A-Eon: A1222 "Tabor"

[matthey]

Ridiculous thing to say, modern memory usage is all about data, code is like 1% of it.

eg SketchBlock is 3.5MB unstripped (plus some small libraries and filters) but as I'm working in quad float pixels I can max out on 1.5Gb of free ram when dealing with modern digital camera images.

The AmigaOS libraries and devices are probably 95% code. They have to be counted too. The AmigaOS requirements:

AmigaOS 3.1 no requirement, 2MB recommended
AmigaOS 3.5 4MB required, 8MB recommended
AmigaOS 3.9 6MB required, 8MB recommended
AmigaOS 4.0 64MB required
AmigaOS 4.1 Classic 96MB required

Many classic users consider AmigaOS 3.9 to be bloated but PPC requires another ~60MB of memory. Why does PPC need another ~60MB for "data"?

What kind of floating point range and precision are needed to require quad precision floating point in SketchBlock? If only increased range is required then extended precision should be adequate (both have 15 bits of exponent) but extended precision only has 11 more bits of precision than double precision while quad precision has 60 more bits of precision.

blender needs about 100MB to start but only 10% of that is code.

Data used once, infrequently and streamed shouldn't count as it isn't necessary to be persistent in memory. Code in the AmigaOS which is persistent should be counted as code used.

[itix]

It depends on the programs (streaming data needs little memory and no DCache for example) and sometimes 68k "data" is smaller also because of less alignment restrictions. Code density is more important to processor performance where the 68k can have 40%-50% more code in the ICache and to bandwidths which allow code to be transferred 40%-50% faster.

It doesnt really matter when my PPC is still much faster at executing code (68k or PPC) than a real 68060.

DCaches are rarely larger than ICaches despite some programs using much more data. Memory is cheap now days but even tens of MBs are important to the AmigaOS where 64 bit pointers will break compatibility.

With 68k code you dont save tens of MBs. You could port the latest OWB to 68k and it still would not run well with 128 MB. 68060 is still too slow to run the latest webkit engine, 128 MB is still too little to run the latest webkit engine.

Code density is important enough that most modern 32 bit mobile and embedded devices use ARM with Thumb 2 or Android's Dalvik byte code which have good but inferior code density to the 68k. IMO, it makes sense for the Amiga to leverage all the advantages of compatibility and a small footprint with the 68k using 32 bit for the low end.

But the small footprint is just due to lack of features. Lack of Unicode support, no built-in USB stack, rudimentary GUI toolkit (unless you install MUI but then it is not small footprint anymore), lack of text antialiasing and truetype font support, simple 4 colour icons (versus true color PNG icons) i.e. it is stuck in 90s.

The high end could break compatibility converting to 64 bit pointers while adding SMP and using a sandbox for AmigaOS 3 and 4 compatibility but I don't think there is enough market for it currently and especially with the price/performance and future prospects of PPC. The same technology used to make an enhanced 68k CPU (and learn from it) could be used to make a new 68k like 64 bit SuperCISC ISA and CPU design (if necessary) which is better than x86_64 (an average ISA at best while the CISC advantages giving the most powerful consumer processors in the world are continuously overlooked). It would require some investment but at least the Amiga could control its destiny, standardize and innovate instead of being dependent on the last small customer PPC manufacturer and aging embedded designs.

I dont see point in new super 68k but I get your idea. The PPC is obviously stuck in year 2005 forever.

[broadblues]

Why does PPC need another ~60MB for "data"?

Not sure where you get youtr 60 MB number from but:

3.1 plain backdrop 4 colour icons. 24 pixels square icons, really small HD at most with few disk buffers and no caching

4.1 full colour backdrop 32bit icons 64 bit square, potentially teratbytes of HD space, many more disk buffers per partition, other caching (SFS has write through caching I think FFS2 has cache hooks that may be enabled) etc etc.

What kind of floating point range and precision are needed to require quad precision floating point in SketchBlock?

Sorry not quad precision floats, I meant 4 floats per pixel, ARGBFloat. Size of buffers still mounts up when dealing with modern image data sizes.

[psxphill]

Isn't the P204x much more expensive then the P1xxx dual core ?

Yes, you can buy a p1021 reference design board cheaper.

http://uk.farnell.com/freescale-semiconductor/p1021rdb-pc/reference-design-board-qoriq-p1021/dp/2315643

But the cpu is only one part of the price, so it doesn't make a huge difference.

Reference boards aren't really designed for end users and are low volume. They are only made so you can prototype products where you'll eventually buy a cpu and stick it on your own board. At that point the cost of the cpu is more relevant.

However if you can't compete with the freescale's reference boards on volume then you won't be able to compete with them on price, so you might as well buy freescale reference boards.

[eliyahu]

@psxphill

The high price of the Trebor is not because it costs a lot to make each  board. Reference boards are normally expensive and just used for  prototyping your own devices. The P102x is designed for being used in  printers etc. Quite how they can justify the Trebor price when  freescales own board is cheaper is quite astonishing. They must hope  that their customers really are desperate.

really?! could you point me to where the tabor price has been released? perhaps you should actually find out the price before making accusations about how 'astonishing' it is how they can 'justify' it. it might save you some embarassment later.

-- eliyahu

[psxphill]

@psxphill

really?! could you point me to where the tabor price has been released? perhaps you should actually find out the price before making accusations about how 'astonishing' it is how they can 'justify' it. it might save you some embarassment later.

-- eliyahu

Ok, so I've assumed that the price is going to be in the range here.

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-10-00027-EN.html

If instead they sell it for around 400 euros instead then yes I would have to apologise.

[eliyahu]

@psxphill

the price quoted there is incorrect. it will be lower. and given that you seem to think that tabor will be more expensive than the reference board you linked to -- which is priced at GBP482.60 -- i think you'll need to apologize if it's lower than that, not EUR400.

by the way, i'm not trying to pick on you. i'm just pointing out that there's tons of conjecture out there, much of it based on incorrect information.

-- eliyahu

[psxphill]

@psxphill

the price quoted there is incorrect. it will be lower.

Don't you think that it's pretty stupid that they haven't made an official announcement about it then? Not that this choice of CPU is particularly suitable for AmigaOS even if it is cheaper. A board with a P204x that has double the clock speed and double the number of cores wouldn't be four times the price, it shouldn't even double the price.

For fun. I am not a slave.

You get fun from releasing software that people would like to run but can't because they don't have an FPU, even though your software doesn't really require a FPU? That is twisted.

[eliyahu]

Don't you think that it's pretty stupid that they haven't made an official announcement about it then? Not that this choice of CPU is particularly suitable for AmigaOS even if it is cheaper. A board with a P204x that has double the clock speed and double the number of cores wouldn't be four times the price, it shouldn't even double the price.

no, i don't. it's not for sale yet. i would expect an announcement  when they're ready to make one. i do, however, think it's rather  shortsighted to draw conclusions from conjecture and rumor. even trevor has had to come out to clarify the numbers being passed around were incorrect.

as for it being unsuitable, apparently A-EON disagree, and i suspect they know their market pretty well. if they're going for higher volume than in the past -- and they are, producing at least 1000 boards -- and lower cost than in the past -- and they are -- then it might well have made sense. again, perhaps you should wait a little and see what the finished product is before passing judgement?

-- eliyahu

[psxphill]

again, perhaps you should wait a little and see what the finished product is before passing judgement?

I'll take it for what it is then, a vague vapourware announcement.

As hyperion have admitted that AmigaOS isn't actually working on it yet, then no I don't think A-EON have any idea whether it's suitable. Trevor is an evangelist, not an engineer.

[Yasu]

According to the AmigaOS 4 developer "Cyborg", lack of FPU is a problem, they will fix it with emulation, it will be slow but they have a plan to eventually speed it up a lot with a JIT emulation. Sounds sensible. Maybe we can stop arguing now?

[aperez]

The e200mc (used in the P204x and later) is just missing two instructions from the PowerPC FPU.

This is factually incorrect, though it may be a typo. P2040/P2041 is e500mc based.l

We could all just buy http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/P2041RDB-PC/P2041RDB-PC-ND/4234547 http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1854648.pdf which is likely going to be cheaper than the slower A1222

No, you couldn't, because it's no longer manufactured. See the Freescale page for it. Freescale has legitimate business reasons for only making a finite number of reference development boards. The distributors may have small quantities of stock, but they rarely stock more than one or two, and once they're gone, they're gone for good.

Regardless, this is a thread about Tabor, not about what you think Tabor should have been. If you want to discuss other Freescale parts, start a thread about it, or better yet, don't

[eliyahu]

I'll take it for what it is then, a vague vapourware announcement.

As hyperion have admitted that AmigaOS isn't actually working on it yet, then no I don't think A-EON have any idea whether it's suitable. Trevor is an evangelist, not an engineer.

i see. you know better. i guess that clears that up, then. :lol:

-- eliyahu

[number6]

This is factually incorrect, though it may be a typo. P2040/P2041 is e500mc based.l



No, you couldn't, because it's no longer manufactured. See the Freescale page for it. Freescale has legitimate business reasons for only making a finite number of reference development boards. The distributors may have small quantities of stock, but they rarely stock more than one or two, and once they're gone, they're gone for good.

Regardless, this is a thread about Tabor, not about what you think Tabor should have been. If you want to discuss other Freescale parts, start a thread about it, or better yet, don't

Too late:
Alternatives to Tabor (from New ppc board by Acube/A-Eon: A1222 "Tabor")

#6

[aperez]

Maybe we need a poll. Which of the following choices best applies to the P1022 PPC CPU choice without a compatible PPC FPU for the Tabor motherboard?

1) poor decision
2) bad decision
3) desperation

Listen, trollmaster...statements such as this do not contribute anything of value to this discussion. Give it a rest. Don't you have something more constructive you could be doing?

30% faster integer performance will make some applications feel snappier while others with heavy floating point use (like Blender) will likely run at a fraction of the speed of a PPC with standard FPU. It's kind of like hiring a motivated worker who is missing one arm. He may be a little faster than average at some jobs but is going to have major trouble doing some work.

I'd like to steer this conversation back towards reality for a moment... If someone buys a dual-core PPC32 machine and expects to be running Blender on it, well, that's just crazy. This isn't a machine for that. The recommended hardware for Blender at the moment is a 64-bit, quad-core CPU with 8GB RAM. This is not the type of hardware you would EVER seriously consider running Blender on.

[psxphill]

i see. you know better. i guess that clears that up, then. :lol:

Anybody without a vested interest knows better. I would let Trevor off because it will have been over sold to him.

They don't know anything about how well it will work, because it's not actually working. Making everything they say a guess, their guess is financially influenced and therefore should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

Hyperion have never been very good with guesses anyway.

Regardless, this is a thread about Tabor, not about what you think Tabor should have been. If you want to discuss other Freescale parts, start a thread about it, or better yet, don't

What I said is relevant to Tabor as it is showing how much of a bad idea it is, but enjoy the car crash.... *grabs popcorn*