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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: restore2003 on March 11, 2004, 06:03:05 PM
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Would it be a good idea to form a "driver team", that consist of skilled programmers to write/port drivers for a1/os4 compatible hardware? or is this something that exists already?
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Good idea, but how do you pay them?
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A bowl of rice a day should be enough :-D
No seriously, this is just a suggestion, there always an answer to every question(almost)
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They could get a % share of the hardware sold, which they created a driver for
Lets hear your guys opinions and ideas about this.
:-)
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A bowl of rice a day should be enough
Remember, the peasants only eat millet. Only the samurai get from the rice.
(Kurosawa, 7 samurai)
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> They could get a % share of the hardware sold, which they created a driver for
Interesting idea, but ti don't work that way unfortunately. ATI doesn't want ANY expense involved with AmigaOS drivers for Radeons. Not a single penny. The market is way too small for them to care. They ain't going to be giving any money whatsoever to Forefront or anyone else writing alternative OS drivers. If AmigaOS coders want paid, they have to charge AmigaOS users... We're lucky some of these hardware companies would even consider sharing their documentation, even if it might be very old and buggy at times, rather than everyone doing like NVidia does, who did not even have the courtesy to write back and say "thank you for your interest but no".
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Why? THere's no useable OS4 and it isn't on the radar, so what's the point? At the current speed it's being developed, coding a driver for new hardware cards now will just means the OS will, when* it's released, support outdated hardware.
*=If**
**=it won't be.
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I think I was looking at the AROS project. They offer bounties for creating device drivers, or anything else for that matter.
The bounties look rather small though. $100-$200.
It would have to be a labour of love but if the desire is big enough so is the pot.
Somebody said they were going to start such a bounty scheme.
I don't remember where.
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Why? THere's no useable OS4
Hmmm... thats funny, I could have sworn it was my main OS... I wonder what this operating system Hyperion have given me then? I could have sworn it was AmigaOS 4...
and it isn't on the radar,
The pre-release is coming soon. I know what you probably think of that statement, but this time I think you'll be surprised.
At the current speed it's being developed, coding a driver for new hardware cards now will just means the OS will, when* it's released, support outdated hardware.
I don't know, Davy Wenzler has written some drivers for some pretty damn high-spec sound cards at least.. once again I think you'll be quite surprised.
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If Amiga or Eyetech sold compatable devices such as Video cards and sound cards or whatever else, then wouldn't the device driver problem be solved?
Doesn't this kind of stuff come on the A1 motherboard anyway?
You know.... Maybe I'm just silly. Yeah, I am, but I guess I will end up being a different type of Amiga user to the rest of you.
Ok.... Maybe I'm going to get off topic with the next part.
Sure the hardware in the Amiga wouldn't be the latest if it came standard, however IMHO if you have an Amiga you will never have the latest as its impossible to keep up with MAC and PC hardware. The A1 will be out of date technically by the time its released. So for me its a matter of, why bother. I just want an alternative to bloated windows and the over complex Linux.
I am one of those people who just wants it all to run out of the box like the days of old. I guess we're all going to quibble about device drivers and the like until there is an official cased version of the A1 with components that might become standard.
I don't want my Amiga to be a mix and match PC. I have a PC for that kind of drama.
The A1 won't revolutionise gaming, and it doesn't currently have a killer app. In that case why do I need the fastest hardware in the world. All the games and all the apps will be me-too apps. You have a PC for apps and games and a console for games and the Amiga cannot beat either.
The Amiga, listening to Alan is touted as a leisure computer. To me it'll be my second computer that will be a joy to use. Its a computer for hobbiests which I am. I will always need a PC unfortunately as I need it for work(as a software engineer) and it is the dominant platform. What I want is the original concept, a computer that I turn on, and it works like a console. OS4 is on ROM isn't it? OH, please let it be on ROM like kickstart. I want it work like a device rather than a PC.
That's why I'll probably end up opting for a lite version.
I know that my A1 will always be slower than the PC that I will be constantly upgrading. Actually, I don't bother much with upgrading anymore. I just realised my last 2 PC purchases were for complete systems. I purchase a complete new system every 4 years, new box and new monitor, and notice a performance gain of 20 times, which is just enough for the WOW factor to kick in. It just costs less and is less hassle to do it this way and I always feel better about my purchase. I feel its always better to wait until you feel its slow.
My next Amiga should be an A2 with OS5 in 4 years!!!!!
Hmmmm. But you never know, once I see one....
I could just be talking out of my a$$.
Yeah, this is the stupidest lamest response I've ever seen let alone written and I thought about not sending it but now that I've written it, it is like how I feel.
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restore2003 wrote:
They could get a % share of the hardware sold, which they created a driver for
It's a nice idea, in theory. But how would you actually "skim" the % for the developers? I could run out and buy a Radeon anywhere I like, for example, how does the developer get his share? The hardware manufacturers would never do anything like this, a few thousand extra boards sold to them is so minor it's not even worth the effort. As Bill & I have said before, ATI was very reluctant to even allow us to write a driver for the Amiga. Bill, thankfully, convinced them, but ATI wanted to contribute absolutely no expense or time. In fact, after a few emails to their engineers from us, they started complaining. And they /never/ wanted a phone call or email to their support people about using a Radeon on an Amiga. So, they were willing to contribute absolutely nothing, zero dollars and zero time. Note that I'm not bashing ATI for this, this is a sound business decision on their part -- the fact that they even gave us the documentation was wonderful.
Also, I think you under-estimate the time & effort involved in writting hardware drivers, making the little % they'd receive not worth all the time and expense for the developer. Forefront, for example, would be very happy if we break even on the Radeon driver development costs, but that's not likely to happen.
Unfortunately, as Bill said, the only way to to get paid for driver development is to charge the people who actually want the thing.
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BigBenAussie wrote:
If Amiga or Eyetech sold compatable devices such as Video cards and sound cards or whatever else, then wouldn't the device driver problem be solved?
No, someone still has to write the drivers for this hardware. The Radeon included on the MicroA1 wouldn't be of much use without our Radeon driver (or the SNAP driver in the future). It would just sit there with no way for the OS to actually do anything with it.
Doesn't this kind of stuff come on the A1 motherboard anyway?
Some stuff does, but not other things. What about things like SCSI or Firewire cards, hardware RAID would be nice, TV tuners & capture cards, higher-end sound cards, etc... All these things need the "glue" of a driver to allow the OS to actually use them.
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xeron wrote:
Why? THere's no useable OS4
Hmmm... thats funny, I could have sworn it was my main OS... I wonder what this operating system Hyperion have given me then? I could have sworn it was AmigaOS 4...
I hate to sound trollish, and I'm not trying to be one, but y'know, if a tiny handful of "developers" having something counts as "released", then items like the Tucker automobile, the Moller air-car, Taligent:Pink and other ideas and or inventions have been "released" and are "useable". But it doesn't.
and it isn't on the radar,
The pre-release is coming soon. I know what you probably think of that statement, but this time I think you'll be surprised.
What do I think of it? I wish it were true. But it sounds like "TWO...WEEKS!" and "B I G!", etc.
Believe me, I'd more than like to see it released.
But I just don't see that happening.
(Incidentally, no, I'm not a Morph-OS fan by any stretch of the imagination...)
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B00tDisk wrote:
I hate to sound trollish, and I'm not trying to be one, but y'know, if a tiny handful of "developers" having something counts as "released",
But you said usable, not released.
What do I think of it? I wish it were true. But it sounds like "TWO...WEEKS!" and "B I G!", etc.
I knew thats exactly what you'd think of it, but on my desk at home there is a CD labeled "OS4 beta installer", which is the first revision of the ISO installer for OS4 on the A1. All the major problems of that version are pretty much fixed. I really can't see it taking all that much longer for the pre-release CD to get finalised.
(Incidentally, no, I'm not a Morph-OS fan by any stretch of the imagination...)
I never said, or thought, you were. I didn't assume you belonged to any "camp".
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B00tDisk wrote:
Believe me, I'd more than like to see it released.
But I just don't see that happening.
Your argument reminds me of a famous Dutch professor of law in the 1950's who claimed that space travel (be it manned or unmanned) was impossible. He was able to support his theories with some solid physical reasoning, so managed to hold his ground. Of course, when the Russians and Americans began the space race in 1961, his argument was blown to smithereens. His response: 'Well, having a man-made object in Earth orbit is not what I meant with space travel: it is going to other planets, or even stars!' He got away with shifting goal posts until the Russians took pictures of the other side of the Moon. From thereon, noone took him seriously ever again.
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xeron wrote:
B00tDisk wrote:
I hate to sound trollish, and I'm not trying to be one, but y'know, if a tiny handful of "developers" having something counts as "released",
But you said usable, not released.
Y'know, you're right. I should've said "released". Not "useable". I'm sure some developers have a "useable" OS4 right now. But that doesn't do the folks who just want it any good.
What do I think of it? I wish it were true. But it sounds like "TWO...WEEKS!" and "B I G!", etc.
I knew thats exactly what you'd think of it, but on my desk at home there is a CD labeled "OS4 beta installer", which is the first revision of the ISO installer for OS4 on the A1. All the major problems of that version are pretty much fixed. I really can't see it taking all that much longer for the pre-release CD to get finalised.
I seem to recall someone (maybe here, maybe at Amigaworld.net) saying "They're testing the CD for release now!" about two or three months ago. I just can't get my head around why it could possibly take that damned long to release the thing.
(Incidentally, no, I'm not a Morph-OS fan by any stretch of the imagination...)
I never said, or thought, you were. I didn't assume you belonged to any "camp".
Being critical of Hyperion's feet dragging is a sure way to mark oneself for the snipers 'round the Amiga world, though, you must admit! ;)
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@bootdisk:
Can u please DROP IT! :-x Were sick and tired of guys like u who havent got something USEFUL to talk about, just whining and trying to get everybody moods down :-x
Thanks to you this thread has gotten of track!
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I seem to recall someone (maybe here, maybe at Amigaworld.net) saying "They're testing the CD for release now!" about two or three months ago. I just can't get my head around why it could possibly take that damned long to release the thing.
Well, don't believe me. Thats fine. It just means the pleasant surprise will be that little bit more pleasant and surprising for you ;-)
Being critical of Hyperion's feet dragging is a sure way to mark oneself for the snipers 'round the Amiga world, though, you must admit! ;)
heh.. being critical of the delays of OS4 doesn't mean you don't want OS4... as Mr. Spock would say, "that is, illogical" :-D
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Actually it could, as you know when you really really want something... but over time, you start to lose interest more and more up till the point you don't actually care at all any more....
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xeron wrote:
I seem to recall someone (maybe here, maybe at Amigaworld.net) saying "They're testing the CD for release now!" about two or three months ago. I just can't get my head around why it could possibly take that damned long to release the thing.
Well, don't believe me. Thats fine. It just means the pleasant surprise will be that little bit more pleasant and surprising for you ;-)
Hey, trust me when I say I'd like to do nothing more than go buy an A1 mATX board, throw it into a hand-built custom case and start playing around with it posthaste. But without even a remote indication of when a consumer OS4 might be considered for release...?
Being critical of Hyperion's feet dragging is a sure way to mark oneself for the snipers 'round the Amiga world, though, you must admit! ;)
heh.. being critical of the delays of OS4 doesn't mean you don't want OS4... as Mr. Spock would say, "that is, illogical" :-D
[/quote]
Hey I'd dance the rite of spring if the damn thing was to come out! I've got enough bits and pieces around here to build a system with (drives, RAM, etc.)
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restore2003 wrote:
@bootdisk:
Can u please DROP IT!
No. The conversation was pretty civil until you started whining, y'know.
Were sick and tired of guys like u who havent got something USEFUL to talk about, just whining and trying to get everybody moods down :-x
Thanks to you this thread has gotten of track!
I'll assume you mean "we're" and to that I say: "We're"? What, have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Yeah, nice tag on my questions being an attempt to bring everyone's mood down. Again, things were pretty civil until you started spouting off. Why don't you "drop it"?
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@bootdisk:
Read what the topic says!
And btw the discussion u brought up has been debated to death, so its pointless to discuss it further, os4 will come out when it comes out! :-P
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> I seem to recall someone (maybe here, maybe at Amigaworld.net) saying "They're testing the CD for release
> now!" about two or three months ago. I just can't get my head around why it could possibly take that damned long to
> release the thing.
Have you ever developed any serious software project before as part of a development team? Sometimes bugs sneak up on you and take longer than a day or two to track down and fix. Sometimes this can be a real pain due to vague, inaccurate, or total lack of documentation for something involved with the problem. If this happens with a bug big enough that makes something unpleasant to use (even if actually functional, just unpleasant/buggy), it doesn't make sense to send out even a prerelease that isn't ready. Once the few big things are taken care of, then it's more realistic to share with non-developers. For example, Radeon users really wouldn't have liked the prerelease as it was a month ago, now they should be reasonably happy. It worked a month ago, even a number of months ago, but wouldn't have been very agreeable for most users until now on AmigaOne.
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billt wrote:
> I seem to recall someone (maybe here, maybe at Amigaworld.net) saying "They're testing the CD for release
> now!" about two or three months ago. I just can't get my head around why it could possibly take that damned long to
> release the thing.
Have you ever developed any serious software project before as part of a development team? Sometimes bugs sneak up on you and take longer than a day or two to track down and fix. Sometimes this can be a real pain due to vague, inaccurate, or total lack of documentation for something involved with the problem. If this happens with a bug big enough that makes something unpleasant to use (even if actually functional, just unpleasant/buggy), it doesn't make sense to send out even a prerelease that isn't ready. Once the few big things are taken care of, then it's more realistic to share with non-developers. For example, Radeon users really wouldn't have liked the prerelease as it was a month ago, now they should be reasonably happy. It worked a month ago, even a number of months ago, but wouldn't have been very agreeable for most users until now on AmigaOne.
Yes, yes I have been part of a software development team. Writing JCL for IBM S390's for STAR Systems, Inc. Financial stuff. It was Programming Hell, I tells ya.
So you're not telling me something I'm not already aware of - that alpha code is just that, and that it's hard to quash all the bugs the first time around, and that releasing before it's ready can bite you in the ass. I know what I'm talking about here; I've seen plenty of "jobs" (IBM mainframe parlance for programs) blow up that tested watertight on simulators. Little twenty or thirty line fetches that extracted from a dataset and populated to addressable remote nodes...and they all came crashing down, BOOM.
So yes. I've seen it happen. The point I'm making isn't that "I don't know what's the cause of it's taking so long!" but rather "Why has it taken this long to quash the bugs?"
Oh well.