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Offline AmigaClassicRule

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #74 from previous page: April 03, 2013, 07:20:46 PM »
Quote from: utri007;731138
I'm perfectly happy with my 800mhz Sam, it much more than 060, Workbench is fast, wb surfing is flawless, I can watch my favorite tv series with it etc. So CPU power is more than OK for me.

Flex would be at least 200€ cheaper without those "industrial" features. Talking about x1000 is different thing, it designed with different way, to offer max CPU power for Amiga and money is not a issue.

ACube might make Amiga only mobo, if there would be enough demand to it. I would say that it is possible to make and sell Flex level mobo about 100€, IF it has only needed features. Just 3x PCI, 2-4 USB, and CPU.

I am thinking honestly here that the physical manufacturing of hardware and selling them for even cheap price is not the issue here. It is the software that makes the computer run, when we lack in this area the demand for the hardware decreases unfathomably rendering the prices to go up, manufacturing hardware to be slow and hard to find and it end up nothing more than a hobby for the rich or the insane.

Why is it worth it for me to spend 600 bucks in a classic Amiga than say 800 bucks in a modern AmigaOS 4.x? Well because it is fun squeezing and making the classic Amiga do things it was not intended to do...but also because it's software library exceed that of OS 4.x and it is native and for it! AmigaOS 4.x software library are imports that can be done with Linux for free!


To me..the only time I think it is worth getting an overprice, super expensive, no longer used PPC hardware to run AmigaOS 4.x when AmigaOS 4.x have equivalent amount of software library as Linux and should we say almost 98% the same. Then to me I would rather own an AmigaOS 4.x and then perhaps..other companies may consider AmigaOS 4.x as a suitable business OS due to the user friendliness, lack of viruses, blah, blah that even Ubunutu unfortunately still lacks on.
 

Offline Terminills

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2013, 07:39:53 PM »
Quote from: utri007;731125
If you read specs of Sam Flex or any other Sam boards, you find out that there ar lots of weird features, wich doesn't have any use with average Amiga hobbyist.

Sam Flex :
•2 integrated Ethernet 10/100 ports
•Up to 4 serial ports
•2 I2C interfaces
•SPI interfaces
•64 pin for I/O General Purpose
•FPGA Lattice XP with 80 pin I/O expansion connector

Sam 460 is even more weird.

If ACube could make mobo just for Amiga hobbyists, it could be much cheaper.

So every buyer matters.



I know the Sam460 very well I have one on my desk. :)
Support AROS sponsor a developer.

edited by mod: this has been addressed
 

Offline AmigaClassicRule

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2013, 07:46:36 PM »
Quote from: Terminills;731142
I know the Sam460 very well I have one on my desk. :)

•2 integrated Ethernet 10/100 ports
Would you get double internet speed if you hook them at the same time into the router?

•Up to 4 serial ports
In computer history from the beginning of the very first personal computer have anyone used more than serial port to benefit home users or business alike?
•2 I2C interfaces
Can someone explain to me what is that and what is used for?
•SPI interfaces
Can someone explain to me what is that and what is used for?
•64 pin for I/O General Purpose
Is this even a feature? Can someone explain to me what is that and what is used for?
•FPGA Lattice XP with 80 pin I/O expansion connector
Huh?! Can someone explain to me what is that and what is used for?
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2013, 07:56:48 PM »
The extra parts don't add much to the cost, its all cheap stuff. FPGA would be the most expensive, at around $10-$20 depending on which model it is. (product specs aren't very specific).
 

Offline Methuselas

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2013, 08:03:36 PM »
Quote from: yssing;731136
I don't know half of those programs, but we do have gimp, I only use gimp at work any ways. Blender for 3D.
We could use inkScape on AOS4.x I prefer that over Illustrator

Once again, I run into the problem of software compatibility.

For example. If I'm doing contract work for a game company, I'm using 3DStudio. If I'm doing film or television work, it's typically Maya (or Lightwave, but I stopped using LW a while ago.)

Now, if I'm working on game models that are of the environment type, I *COULD* use Blender and import them into max for my client, but that's extra work on my part and I have applications on the PC side that allow me to cut UVs in seconds, rather than hours. Sure, I can paint my textures in GIMP, but I can instead use Mari, which allows me to paint seamlessly, on the fly, without having to paint, load into my 3D app, check for seams and paint again.

Now, if I am modeling and rigging a character model, I run into serious problems, as most game companies use 3DStudio's CAT plugin (Character Animation Toolkit.) Sure, I could model my character in Blender, then texture it in GIMP (running into the same problems I'd have with seam issues), but I'd still have to load it into 3DStudio to use CAT, 'cos there's no bone compatibility in Blender with CAT. That means, I'd do all my weight painting and binding in 3DStudio, anyway. That's counter-productive for my workload and pipeline, using two, separate machines to do the job one will do, faster and more efficiently.

Also, many of these applications I use, have linux ports, but they're still X86 based, not PPC, which would require a complete re-write of the application, most companies AREN'T willing to do for such a small userbase or run them through emulation, which would choke an already slow processor by comparison.

You see the conundrum? It's not that I DON'T want to use OS4. It's the fact that it's just not capable of what I NEED it to do, on a daily basis and for me, it's simply isn't justifiable to spend over a grand on a computer that I'm only going to turn on, very rarely, as a hobby. That being said, why am I being punished for not wanting to spend the money to purchase a machine I won't get much use out of, if at all?

Hyperion would be smart, if right now, they focused solely on porting OpenGL and getting it fixed, working and up-to-date with current standards, than anything else. When they got that done, they donate a machine or two to companies like ID, Steam, Blizzard, etc in the hopes they *MAY* (*MAY*, mind you) have a former Amiga coder willing to port a game, in his own time to the Amiga standard so Amigan's could download DRM copies of current games they wanted. (You'd be surprised how many digital artists in the game industries, like myself, that actually got their knuckles bloody on Amiga systems.) Sure, you're not going to get a CD/DVD copy with printed manuals and what not, but at least you'd be getting current games.

Quote
And thanks for your kind words on Alien Air Attack, I was not the only one involved in it, Krister made the great music and Kevin made most of the graphics, the good looking any way.
No worries. I wouldn't have said it, if I didn't mean it. I have it bookmarked now, so when I need a quick break. I just go play that for a few minutes to release my frustrations (though, as of late it seems to be making me more frustrated. Some of those levels are HARD! :rofl:)

[EDIT] - And for those griping about all the extra fluff on the SAM's, remember these boards were designed for KIOSKs first, not OS4. Hyperion ported OS4 to an already designed, tested and commercial board. All those "Extra" parts, from a KIOSK standpoint, are quite useable.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 08:20:04 PM by Methuselas »
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Offline eliyahu

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2013, 08:15:27 PM »
Quote from: Methuselas;731146
You see the conundrum? It's not that I DON'T want to use OS4. It's the fact that it's just not capable of what I NEED it to do, on a daily basis and for me, it's simply isn't justifiable to spend over a grand on a computer that I'm only going to turn on, very rarely, as a hobby. That being said, why am I being punished for not wanting to spend the money to purchase a machine I won't get much use out of, if at all?

Hyperion would be smart, if right now, they focused solely on porting OpenGL and getting it fixed, working and up-to-date with current standards, than anything else. When they got that done, they donate a machine or two to companies like ID, Steam, Blizzard, etc in the hopes they *MAY* (*MAY*, mind you) have a former Amiga coder willing to port a game, in his own time to the Amiga standard so Amigan's could download DRM copies of current games they wanted. (You'd be surprised how many digital artists in the game industries, like myself, that actually got their knuckles bloody on Amiga systems.) Sure, you're not going to get a CD/DVD copy with printed manuals and what not, but at least you'd be getting current games.
the software issue has been around since the late-90s. OS3, OS4, MOS, and AROS all suffer from a lack of software which is compatible with software used on mainstream platforms, like windows or linux. it's not just OS4, but OS4 gets the accusation most often because it's commercial.

in any case the good news is that hyperion are indeed working on a current OGL stack. they have been for some time, actually. the warp3D drivers A-EON commissioned are taking time away from that, but hey, money talks. lots of little things are happening behind the scenes to make the platform more attractive to developers, and OGL is just one of them. developer tools, documentation, etc., are also very important. and hardware that is performant enough to be able to even run some of the CPU-intensive applications now normal on PCs. oh, and it has to be at least somewhat affordable as well.

i don't imagine the amiga will 'return' per se, but i think it will become much better than it is today. i enjoy my NG systems because not only do they run workbench, not only do they run my classic amiga applications seamlessly, but they run them much faster. they run new, native software, some of which is terrific. and they let me do what i normally do on my PCs, but in the environment i prefer. if we could get 'em faster and cheaper, hey, that would be awesome. but when you're a hobbyist and have a passion for something, sometimes dollars aren't the most important thing. :)

-- eliyahu
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Offline utri007

Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2013, 08:21:06 PM »
I wouldn't even imagine to us Amiga as a work machine, thats why it is callt a hobby machine ;)

Though it is perfctly possible to use it as a home office and do some "serious" stuff with it. Everything with Amiga requires more or less tinkering, wich I love :) still havent make printing to work, because I really doesn't need it, but it would be fun.

Some basic stuff works out of the box. It was actually surprice for me, I waited that situation is much worse.
ACube Sam 440ep Flex 800mhz, 1gb ram and 240gb hd and OS4.1FE
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Offline Methuselas

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2013, 09:35:57 PM »
Quote from: eliyahu;731148
the software issue has been around since the late-90s. OS3, OS4, MOS, and AROS all suffer from a lack of software which is compatible with software used on mainstream platforms, like windows or linux. it's not just OS4, but OS4 gets the accusation most often because it's commercial.

Oh, I'm not blaming them for anything, I'm just stating an obvious point. AROS has a much better chance of app ports, 'cos it's x86 (though, with Olaf's AROS 68k, I'm tempted to hound Bernie about picking up Umilator again, since it bypasses all his legal and licensing issues. :P) MorphOS has a better chance of a bigger user base, due to cheaper, readily available hardware, via Macs, but that kinda leaves OS4 out in the cold, which is why I don't understand why they don't donate machines to current software companies hoping they'll port their applications to OS4. A good example would be Corel. The Corel Suite is BEAUTIFUL. I love using Painter and the other apps that come with it. It's also less processor and ram intensive than Adobe products. That's a good starting point for getting commercial apps to Amiga. The Corel Suite is EXTREMELY cheap, compared to the Adobe Master Collection and I won't even mention how much I had to spend just to UPGRADE that from CS4 to 6. Yeah, sure they may not port it, but if these people are willing to lose 100k a year in "development" 6 or 7 grand for two working X1000's to an established software company, hoping they'll port their graphics suite to OS4 isn't anything. If I had Corel's suite, plus Open Office (which they claim is on the way, already), dropping a grand on a machine that I could use for storyboard, concept art, office work, browsing the web, along with minor things like watching TV shows, listening to mp3s while I work, etc, would be more feasible for me. Not to mention, Corel wouldn't require any hardware GL components. That's all software based.

Quote
in any case the good news is that hyperion are indeed working on a current OGL stack. they have been for some time, actually. the warp3D drivers A-EON commissioned are taking time away from that, but hey, money talks. lots of little things are happening behind the scenes to make the platform more attractive to developers, and OGL is just one of them. developer tools, documentation, etc., are also very important. and hardware that is performant enough to be able to even run some of the CPU-intensive applications now normal on PCs. oh, and it has to be at least somewhat affordable as well.
Yeah, that's the primary killer, right now, is Open GL. As soon as that becomes an Amiga standard, it's going to help people to start taking notice of it again, 'cos at least from a graphics stand point, it's up to modern standards. GL is also something that needs to be continually updated. Hell, send a box for free to NVidia. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't start writing OS4 drivers, since they're now doing Unix drivers for Macs and Linux boxes. They are a company, first and foremost. They care about numbers.

Quote
i don't imagine the amiga will 'return' per se, but i think it will become much better than it is today. i enjoy my NG systems because not only do they run workbench, not only do they run my classic amiga applications seamlessly, but they run them much faster. they run new, native software, some of which is terrific. and they let me do what i normally do on my PCs, but in the environment i prefer. if we could get 'em faster and cheaper, hey, that would be awesome. but when you're a hobbyist and have a passion for something, sometimes dollars aren't the most important thing. :)

-- eliyahu
Amiga could make a comeback, more along the lines of Linux, if they'd stop dropping the ball, all the time. They need to start LISTENING to their users, but mostly, their potential user BASE. I don't know how many people complained, back in the day, "Cheaper hardware!" or "X86 hardware!" The MorphOS people listened, out of necessity and ported to old Mac hardware. It's cheap and readily available, so their numbers swelled, in a short amount of time.

I really dislike Windows. Windows 7 is great, but XP was by far better, IMHO. My Win8 laptop is atrocious. I hate the interface, it's even more kludgy to me, than Win7, but it's what came with my lappy. I miss the Amiga OS. It was so good for what it was, in the 90s and I'm still spoiled about that. I would give anything to boot my PC into OS4 and double click a Maya icon to start doing work.

But, I'm a realist. ;)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 09:40:41 PM by Methuselas »
\'Using no way as way. Having no limitation as limitation.\' - Bruce Lee

\'No, sorry. I don\'t get my tits out. They\'re not actually real, you know? Just two halves of a grapefruit...\' - Miki Berenyi

\'Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.\' - Dark Helmet :roflmao:

\'And for future reference, it might be polite to ask someone if you can  quote them in your signature, rather than just citing them to make a  sales pitch.\' - Karlos. :rtf
 

Offline utri007

Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2013, 09:58:24 PM »
If we are dreaming tiny 0,001% change that Amiga makes a comback, it is not because of Amiga it will be because of Windows. Windows 8 sucks. Early 2000-centry they were blamed to trying to push workstation OS to phones, now they have good phone/table OS and they trying to push it to desktops...

Windows 7 was great.
ACube Sam 440ep Flex 800mhz, 1gb ram and 240gb hd and OS4.1FE
A1200 Micronic tower, OS3.9, Apollo 060 66mhz, xPert Merlin, Delfina Lite and Micronic Scandy, 500Gb hd, 66mb ram, DVD-burner and WLAN.
A1200 desktop, OS3.9, Blizzard 060 66mhz, 66mb ram, Ide Fix Express with 160Gb HD and WLAN
A500 OS2.1, GVP+HD8 with 4mb ram, 1mb chip ram and 4gb HD
Commodore CDTV KS3.1, 1mb chip, 4mb fast ram and IDE HD
 

Offline yssing

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2013, 10:10:12 PM »
Quote from: eliyahu;731148
the software issue has been around since the late-90s. OS3, OS4, MOS, and AROS all suffer from a lack of software which is compatible with software used on mainstream platforms, like windows or linux. it's not just OS4, but OS4 gets the accusation most often because it's commercial.
-- eliyahu


My point exactly.
The only thing I can think of that windows can do, is domain and multiuser, but I have never used that on any of my home computers any way.
 

Offline AmigaClassicRule

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #84 on: April 03, 2013, 10:13:01 PM »
Quote from: utri007;731161

Windows 7 was great.

What do you mean was it is STILL great....please!!! It is not DEAD yet my friend! It is still can be bought from NCIX and other computer stores and by the way I have upgraded my entire hardware and software part of my compute rand I bought Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit here and I am using it now to post in this website.
 

Offline yssing

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #85 on: April 03, 2013, 10:19:55 PM »
Well going x86 does not mean that software starts magically appearing. It still needs to be ported. Yes there could to some extend be some sort of wine implementation, but AFAIK aros does not have that, yet(?)

"They" are listening to their users, their users are using AOS4.x already. The users who wants an x86, are not really AOS4.x users, but they have the option of aros. Personally I beleiver more in AOS4.x than any of the other amiga like OS's. I would however really like to buy me one of those sweet aros boxes vesalia sold.
 

Offline haywirepc

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #86 on: April 03, 2013, 10:31:15 PM »
aCube manufactures PPC bords for industrial purpose, if they could manu. Lots of useless thing could be removed and make boards more cheaper.facture bords just for just for Amiga user, I would say that price would lower.

Everyone keeps saying that, but everyone has yet to find ONE person or company who bought one of those boards for any purpose other than amiga
os4...


No really, if people are using them for industrial purposes, where?

There are 150 boards for embedded applications that are 1/10th of the price. No one in their right mind would buy these for a manufacturing business, factory,automation, or any other industrial purpose. I CALL BULL**** on these being for anything other than running os4.

And nothing personal, I just call bull**** because people keep saying this but no one in how many years has been able to show me or anyone else
any company or even individual who used one of these boards for industrial applications. Sure maybe someone did, but its not a volume larger
then the volume they sold for os4 users. They won't release sales figures... or even any examples of people using them for their "so called" main purpose.

Why is that?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 10:33:29 PM by haywirepc »
 

Offline yssing

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #87 on: April 03, 2013, 10:47:53 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;731167

Why is that?


You know, they are out to get you. They have special machines with mind-rays or something.



In reality, none of us knows why they don't want to release any numbers, but there could be a number of valid explanations.
That does not mean comspiracy
 

Offline Methuselas

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #88 on: April 03, 2013, 10:53:26 PM »
Quote from: yssing;731166
Well going x86 does not mean that software starts magically appearing. It still needs to be ported. Yes there could to some extend be some sort of wine implementation, but AFAIK aros does not have that, yet(?)

"They" are listening to their users, their users are using AOS4.x already. The users who wants an x86, are not really AOS4.x users, but they have the option of aros. Personally I beleiver more in AOS4.x than any of the other amiga like OS's. I would however really like to buy me one of those sweet aros boxes vesalia sold.


Once again, you're missing the point. What are they actually doing to promote companies into porting their software to OS4? I've seen people complaining about not having an updated SDK. If there's no current SDK, there's no porting of modern software. No commercial company has any incentive to buy a SAM or an X1000 to port their software to a user base of a few thousand. It's just not economically feasible. ESPECIALLY without a current SDK. Therefore, you *GIVE* these companies working machines and HOPE they decide to to it. You *PAY* companies to port software. Like I mentioned before, if these people are losing 100k a year in development dropping a few machines to a company in the hopes they'll port software isn't anything. However, taking 20 grand of that 100k and ASKING them to port say OpenOffice, is a BIG difference.

And while "they" are listening to their users, "they" are NOT listening to their user base, which is ANYONE that still has and uses a classic Amiga or peruses ANY OS4 related website, including Amiga.org. Hey, it's great they're working on SMP for the X1000 users, but that doesn't do anyone any good that doesn't have one. Sure, it's great they're updating OS4.1 Classic, but it's still not doing any good to anyone whom owns a SAM. Insofar, there are 3 types of Next-Gen OS4 machines: Classic PPC, SAM and X1000s, but yet they're all plagued with the same problem and that's they don't have any modern software. That alienates potential USERS from the user base, like myself, as we have no need for purchasing an OS4 machine. I don't need to spend a grand or more on a machine just to go, "Wow.... I'd forgotten how much I loved Workbench. Welp. Time to turn this off and turn on my PC, so I can actually do some work."

If they want to bring in more users, fact is, they need to start focusing on getting 3rd Party software development back to the scene and they're failing miserably in that aspect, with the exception of OpenGL, but that's only going to go so far, as most modern games require a coreDuo at least, to even run.

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Offline koaftder

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Re: Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2013, 10:54:30 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;731167
aCube manufactures PPC bords for industrial purpose, if they could manu. Lots of useless thing could be removed and make boards more cheaper.facture bords just for just for Amiga user, I would say that price would lower.

Everyone keeps saying that, but everyone has yet to find ONE person or company who bought one of those boards for any purpose other than amiga
os4...


No really, if people are using them for industrial purposes, where?

There are 150 boards for embedded applications that are 1/10th of the price. No one in their right mind would buy these for a manufacturing business, factory,automation, or any other industrial purpose. I CALL BULL**** on these being for anything other than running os4.

And nothing personal, I just call bull**** because people keep saying this but no one in how many years has been able to show me or anyone else
any company or even individual who used one of these boards for industrial applications. Sure maybe someone did, but its not a volume larger
then the volume they sold for os4 users. They won't release sales figures... or even any examples of people using them for their "so called" main purpose.

Why is that?


They're probably keeping their real business separated from the Amiga related crap. If they do consulting, they could be selling their kit along with their services and you'd never hear about it.  They have to be making money somewhere, I don't see how they could survive just from servicing the HyperionOS crowd.