Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

[commodorejohn]

Is he serious? Just in case he is, here's a 100% serious answer:

This "Numiga" project or whatever it winds up being called should be 68k-based. Whether that means an FPGA reimplementation like Natami or if there's some particular ColdFire model that doesn't have the existing ColdFire incompatibilities, or even a plain-old-silicon 68k CPU, I don't care. Just give me an 030/040 with an MMU and FPU running at a peppy clock speed.

It should feature audio and video hardware designed in the spirit of the Amiga chipset, i.e. providing capability through general openness and flexibility. I'm not going to get anal about whether it's truly custom or simply an array of existing parts, as long as it provides a similarly flexible-but-friendly approach to use. An OCS/AGA compatibility mode would be ideal, but if that's not possible, then it can be done in software, I guess.

It should not simply be "a Linux box." If CUSA is (as I've heard) legally prevented from bundling AROS with an "Amiga" branded product, they should at least provide the AROS devs with full hardware documentation so it can be easily ported, and direct buyers to check it out on their website and in the manuals (to whatever extent this is legally feasible.)

Above all, it should not be either a PC clone or an attempt to be a "modern" non-PC clone that puts keeping up with the Joneses ahead of being an interesting, elegant, and affordable system.

Give me something that fits those criteria, and I'll be first in line. I mean that.

[commodorejohn]

I want a machine that costs no more than a PS3, but has superior abilities to a £1200 i7 PC gaming rig.

And while we're dreaming, I'd like a pony.

As for people asking for 68k based machine are you also stipulating such a low powered PoS system must cost less than £30? If not then are you on drugs?

Why would I want to run games at the speed of a 386/486 PC in 2011 you loonies!

No, I'm willing to pay a moderate sum for it. As for why, I don't care why you would want to, I want it because I find the idea a million times more interesting than some generic x86 box.

[commodorejohn]

Why not just buy a £200 A4000/030 from ebay then? Why bother.

Because A. I'd like to get actual new hardware that has a potential longer lifespan, and more importantly B. it doesn't have to be just what an A4000 is; NatAmi has already exceeded the capabilities of old Amiga hardware, and they're not even finished yet.

My personal opinion though, apart from making cases and selling them to us, is Commodore USA just don't have the kind of talent in their employment to make a new Amiga. And seeing as this thread exists they don't really have the imagination either as we are being asked to tell them what they should make

Probably not, but as long as we're talking hypotheticals, I'll give a straight (hypothetical) answer.

[commodorejohn]

Making community project secured by community is nothing to lose tactics, while you will not be able to object their main product line that meanwhile goes for advertising, while this project gets NDA. If 500 preorders fails, its the community "is wrong". As CUSA is company that neither designs hardware or software, what  can we believe is that they can rebrand existing products as usual.

Short - many obstacles, little chances of success, win-win of CUSA

Quite, and that's exactly what I imagine the plan is: make the offer, counting on it not going anywhere, and then go "oh, well, you guys had your chance" any time someone complains about the rest of CUSA's behavior.

Just for the record, Leo & Barry, if that is what you're hoping for, don't bet on it. I'm willing to go along with the thought experiment here, but to the people you've spurned and insulted for the last couple years, it's not going to be enough for you to offer one product - you're going to have to change your entire direction.

[commodorejohn]

Nah, it means "final shot at doing something worthwhile, since our other ideas failed miserably."

I hear death-knell!

That's my theory

[commodorejohn]

I can understand the anger and frustration here, but it's based on the fact that Commodore USA haven't delivered on what the community want, correct?

Well, it's as much that they've been openly snide and hostile towards anybody who doesn't agree with their direction - Leo has sneered about how "this is the new future of Commodore, and you just need to get over it," and Barry has...well, you can take your pick of things Barry's said. Even people who come in with honest questions and no axe to grind have gotten this treatment.

[commodorejohn]

And a new OS does not have to be developed from scratch in fact I would say that is also pointless way to go, but rather to base the OS on existing technology ie the Linux kernel. I'm not suggesting that it should be just another Linux distro but to use the kernel would make a great starting point.

Why would you start with the Linux kernel if you don't want Linux? It's not like it's made of unicorn concentrate or something.

No, the Natami team isn't making a new product  from scratch.  They're taking existing classic Amiga technology and  extending it thru the use of FPGA technology.  And they've been at it  for nearly 7 years without anything to show a prospective buyer. As for  what CUSA may deliver, that's the entire point of their survey.  Tell  them what you want and see if they will deliver.  When it comes to  delivering, at least they have a track record.  Obviously quite a few  people have purchased their systems whether you like them or not. Natami  hasn't delivered a thing yet.

They have a track record of delivering 1. sticker brandings of  pre-existing products, and 2. other pre-existing products in a  custom case. When it comes to anything further off the beaten path than  that, they have no track record at all. Natami, on the other hand, has  not shipped a commercial product, but they have developed and  demonstrated real tech in a mostly-working state, which for the purposes  of a project like this is much, much more than CUSA can say.

[commodorejohn]

I disagree.  The products that CUSA has delivered are real and it didn't take them 7 years.  The Natami team hasn't delivered a single product and they won't even provide a release date for anything they are developing.

They are real, yes, in the sense that they are physical objects you can purchase with legal tender that do, more or less, work as advertised. What they aren't is anything much in the "not a PC clone" department. Natami has taken a long time, yes, no question about that, but that's because it's a full computer system being developed by a team of hobbyists. And their rationale for not providing a release date (to wit: they want to take the time and make sure it's done right) is, to my way of thinking, perfectly reasonable.

Unfortunately you don't see CUSA's survey as an opportunity to develop something Amiga users might want.  All you want to do is complain.

That's not true at all. I was the first response in this entire thread, with a completely straightforward and complaint-free answer to BigBenAussie's question. Really, true fact! You can even go back and see for yourself!

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for this to come to anything, but that doesn't mean I'm not intrigued by it.

You don't like CUSA.  We get it.  So why do you have to keep harping about it?  No one is forcing you to buy their products or participate in their survey but you seem to be obsessed with bashing them.  We just got rid of that troll Fanko and now you're doing a wonderful job of filling the vacuum he left behind.

As I've said many times to everybody who has ever come at me with the "why do you keep restating this" line, when I am on an Internet forum and I come across a (active) thread on a subject I hold an interest in, I enter into the discussion and state my relevant opinions. This is how Internet forums work. If you do not like reading websites wherein people express views contrary to your own, you might try starting a blog and disabling comments, or simply go to the logical conclusion and start a website containing your opinions and nothing else.

Alternatively, you could try the ignore-user facility. But that would just be silly.

[commodorejohn]

to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.

Oh, well said. We have to lose this idea that the only acceptable outcome is some kind of mythic return-of-the-king "retaking" of a market the Amiga never owned to begin with. Let's set our sights on something that can actually be achieved, and figure out where to go from there once that's done.

I agree. The best we can hope for are some old users returning to the fold, and those interested in minority hardware/OS's picking one up. Wishful thinking would be some unification of the market, which is small, and split into even smaller camps.

I'm not sure CUSA are the company to do this. They have been actively antagonistic towards the Amiga communities in the past, and it would need a well priced item to attract the people I mentioned above. It would also need all our hardware/software guru's on board, some of whom they have pissed off.

I dunno, maybe they could unify the community in the sense that they've pissed off pretty much everybody equally. You know, in the same sense that the Saxons unified the Britons.

[commodorejohn]

Why does a company with a "projected $30 million marketing budget" need anyone to prepay for their computers?

I'm going to hazard a guess that the fee for Disney's much-vaunted "partnership" was somewhere in the neighborhood of $30 mil

[commodorejohn]

I would like to direct you all to the following site to post your feelings on the subject of a new Amiga

www.the-amiga.blogspot.com

Well, I would, but as my feelings do not lie in the direction of "take a PC clone and call it an Amiga," it would seem that I am incapable of voting my opinions over there.

[commodorejohn]

It sounds like what would be more useful than having CUSA make anything would just be for a bunch of Amiga users to pool some cash together, come up with some case designs and hire a company that does injection mold stuff to make some cases.

There would be a few technical issues in the final construction with keyboards and power supplies, but, overall, this would get people exactly what they want, I would think.

Maybe I am over simplifying, I don't think so though.

That's what I'm wondering. I'm no expert on the subject of electronics manufacturing, but I can't imagine that a company whose sole experience with it consists of "get a custom case made and pay a third party to put standard PC boards in it" has all that much to offer in the way of industry connections that a group of ordinary Amigans pooling their resources wouldn't.

[commodorejohn]

If nothing else, I have to give CUSA credit for staging a pretty fair reenactment of the Judgement of Paris.

[commodorejohn]

Saying that, you have made some valid points earlier about CUSA that I couldn't deny. Yes we had heat issues with our machines…..at least I did with my early C64x Ultimate. And yes certain members who bought CUSA machines didn't have their questions answered, and I was a little bit annoyed by that. I'm not their staff so I do not know what the status of their support is like, but as fellow user I do try to help others when I can when they post something up on C-A.org.

Is it me, or is this a very roundabout way of saying "CUSA hasn't been any help at all, so the users have had to step in and help each other?"

One thing that users couldn't do for sure was add/change a new graphics card in their system like you do in a PC. This, and the fact that the CPUs could be upgraded. I think these were the two killer points if you will, that killed off the Amiga

What? Commodore died because you couldn't upgrade an Amiga's video hardware (except that you totally could) and you could upgrade the CPU? How does that make any sense!?

Since it is now our favourite platform, how about going the full hog with developing AmigaOS/AROS on it? That'll clear up the 'decade old' question for good…..

It's not my favorite platform, or a lot of other people's. The fact that it's the most commonly-used attests only to the Wintel alliance's success in dominating the industry, not personal preference. And any attempt to establish it and "clear up the decades-old question" will do nothing of the sort, it'll only further alienate the non-x86 fans.

[commodorejohn]

Oh so thats what this is about, put this out there so you can blame the community for cusa's failures? After saying we're not their target market then come begging for pre-orders then blame the community when its more BULL**** from cusa and nothing happens.

A-yup. Make an offer you know you won't be called upon to fulfill, and then you can act like everybody else is the *******...