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Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: kamelito on May 29, 2015, 12:55:29 PM
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Hi
Since we have Scalos, Ambient or even Dopus Magellan II I found pretty strange that there's no decision from Hyperion to replace the actual paleolithic WB with one them?
Just curious...
Kamelito
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@kamelito
well, i, for one, like the 'paleolithic' workbench. and i imagine there might be other customers which do as well. since you can easily run dopus5 in workbench replacement-mode on AOS4 currently, i'd rather us be able to continue to use what we each prefer. :)
-- eliyahu
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Most people that prefer OS4 prefer it because of said UI, imo.
For those that don't, DirOpus is always an easy option.
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OS4 already has everything wich scalos has and diropus is from arse, so hopefully current UI wount change to that.
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i must admit i have skipped on scalos till only recently and never actually used magellan as desktop replacement. currently my interest in scalos is based upon the fact that wanderer is still inferior to it in many areas and im seeking to replace it in aros68k for amigas with something actually more usable.
but then these options are still open for os4 users, while replacing workbench as default would cause another drawback on argument about legitimacy and lineage. i think keeping it is a right and understandable decision.
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Hopefully it will happen one day, or not.
http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/itwbarthel_en.php
Kamelito
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Not sure why anyone would be bucking for Hyperion itself to effectively throw away what is pretty much their meal ticket in favor of a UI replacement that no one is really asking for. Why would they? Progress? Why change what works, especially when users can customize the UI themselves anyways *if* they choose to. I'm a big fan of the bare bones, no bells and whistles Hyperion bone stock WB.
That, in some sense - is like wondering why Ford doesn't simply throw away the design paperwork for the Mustang because some guy is shouting that the Pinto is a more apt choice for what is their most recognizable/flagship auto, lol.
If another UI experience is something you'd like, assuming you're even an OS4 user - there's options like DirOpus, many choices for themes, and if you're so inclined, program your own solution for it. Voila.
As for Ambient and MOS, it's an acquired taste. I am a registered MOS user, and I like the OS very much, but I'd be lying if I tried to tell you that I care for the design of it in the least, so I mostly use OS4. That's a matter of personal preference only - many people are the exact opposite.
Were the default OS4 experience to suddenly be retooled to look like an Ambient knockoff, I'd quit using OS4.
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Hope they don't, it is what makes it feel like an Amiga. MorphOS on the other hand doesn't feel or look anything like 3.9 or earlier.
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I am not a fan of OS4, but I see no reason at all to use Scalos or Magellan on it. And Ambient is nice, but it is a totally alien desktop, nothing Amiga-ish in it.
Both Scalos and Magellan on the other hand, are pretty good enhancements for 68k Amigas. I personally have chosen Scalos over Magellan for all my high-end setups. It is a pitty that development on it seems stalled.
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I personally have chosen Scalos over Magellan for all my high-end setups. It is a pitty that development on it seems stalled.
it is open, it has an own repository and is hosted within aros source. so if there was necessity and resources to be developed further it could be.
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The OS4.1 WB IMHO has a beautiful look, has high functionality, and has that classic Amiga feel to it. While this may not appeal to everyone, and there are always people unhappy with "something," I am not sure that Hyperion/A-Eon/Amigakit are willing to write a new interface just for a minority; and in the realm of the Amiga minority, a second subset must really be a minority.
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What would OS3.X have to go through to be on par with OS4.X?
I really do not know how to ask the question.
I do not know how different the two are from each other.
( Let's get ready to rumble! :D )
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What would OS3.X have to go through to be on par with OS4.X?
I really do not know how to ask the question.
I do not know how different the two are from each other.
( Let's get ready to rumble! :D )
OS3.X went through a lot of hard work over many to become OS4.1+, so the question seems to be, "How could I find a new independent version of OS4 also derived from OS3 that went through some other pathway than what Hyperion used?"
Some people would answer MorphOS. I would not myself.
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Hope they don't, it is what makes it feel like an Amiga. MorphOS on the other hand doesn't feel or look anything like 3.9 or earlier.
Thank God for that.
Yes, let Hyperion do as they want.
If you're tied that much to a specific look and feel, you're likely to go with AOS 4.1.
Personally, I couldn't care less. Ambient is a significant improvement that functions similar to Workbench.
Scalos hasn't received enough polish.
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Hope they don't, it is what makes it feel like an Amiga. MorphOS on the other hand doesn't feel or look anything like 3.9 or earlier.
MorphOS can be configured to be very OS3.x-like, and that's how I've got my system configured. The only thing I really miss is that not all of the traditional menu options are available in the pull down menus. They are in the context menus, though.
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Should you be able to choose at installation like a Linux distro? That is good if you can get a UI you like.
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I prefer the Workbench to the others as well. If I need to handle a lot of file related activities I'll fire up DiskMaster2 or something.
@kamelito
well, i, for one, like the 'paleolithic' workbench. and i imagine there might be other customers which do as well. since you can easily run dopus5 in workbench replacement-mode on AOS4 currently, i'd rather us be able to continue to use what we each prefer. :)
-- eliyahu
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I noticed that MUI and Magic Workbench was on the same site, as far as I remember.
Does anyone still use Magic Workbench or have I been living on a different hdd for too long?
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Hi
Since we have Scalos, Ambient or even Dopus Magellan II I found pretty strange that there's no decision from Hyperion to replace the actual paleolithic WB with one them?
Just curious...
Kamelito
If Paleolithic means that WorkBench came from "the early phase of the Stone Age, lasting about 2.5 million years, when primitive stone implements were used," then I really do own some vintage hardware!
So that PET 8032 of mine would be how old?
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The OS4.1 WB IMHO has a beautiful look, has high functionality, and has that classic Amiga feel to it.
You are mixing two entirely different things. Workbench is an applications which look and feel codes from the operating system. One you change the theme in the OS the look and feel in Workbench changes, too.
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I noticed that MUI and Magic Workbench was on the same site, as far as I remember.
Does anyone still use Magic Workbench or have I been living on a different hdd for too long?
They were both from SASG (http://www.sasg.com/), waaaaaaay back in the day. ;) Wonder whatever happened to those guys? From what I recall they stopped taking registrations at least 10 years ago. Shame, since everybody still uses MUI, you'd think they'd want to make at least a little money off licenses, right? :laugh1:
And to answer your second question, I still use MagicWB icons on my A500. I bet a lot of people do! They do have that sort of classic/nostalgic feel to them, compared to more modern GlowIcons/Ken's Icons/etc., as well as lower system overhead. I've actually been thinking about reformatting my A500 with 3.9, because I find more and more I "can't live" without the more modern features, but swapping back MagicWB icons in over-top of the GlowIcons. Just for that nostalgia feeling. :)
Edit: Wait, you can still register MUI (http://www.sasg.com/cgi-sasg/order_info?app=MUI)? Well I'll be damned. At least you could in 2007, LOL. ;)
Edit to my edit: Erm, nevermind (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=37249&page=2). Now you got me thinking about it though, I might as well send him the money that I never could, back when I was a broke teenager. Couldn't hurt!
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Just an honest question: why do you feel Ambient is "so un-Amiga like"? I get it that it looks and feel different but "un-Amiga like"? I find most things very familiar from my Classic days. Unlike any Linux distro that I would really call "un-Amiga like".
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Just an honest question: why do you feel Ambient is "so un-Amiga like"? I get it that it looks and feel different but "un-Amiga like"? I find most things very familiar from my Classic days. Unlike any Linux distro that I would really call "un-Amiga like".
I tend to agree with you, in that all the functions work the same.
Any Amiga user that knows how to reduce, enlarge, or bring a window to the foreground will immediately be able to use Ambient.
I don't understand, unless its only based on casual experience, where did the "un Amiga like" comments come from.
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The AmigaOS 4.x could still keep it's look but can be updated to today standard.
Kamelito
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What are today's standards?
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What are today's standards?
- "path" bar where you can go backward and that told you were you are, in this bar you can click on one part of the path and it will show you a menu with all drawers below and you can select one to go there.
- history of most used visited location
- search bar with fast search based on metadatas
- display documents of any type like an icon. Quick view possible on those documents.
-fast scan of the content of a folder
-unlimited undo/redo of performed actions
-bar with name/modified date type and size all of those can be sorted based on the item you choose ex perform action like file < 100kb
-all of this can be shared
There's more but I need to Watch a movie now.
Kamelito
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I would like to see OS4.1Fe in a 68K edition on a fast FPGA Amiga.
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I would like to see OS4.1Fe in a 68K edition on a fast FPGA Amiga.
I agree they shouldn't have stopped 68k version, they'll get a lot more sell doing so.
Kamelito
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I would like to see OS4.1Fe in a 68K edition on a fast FPGA Amiga.
Now that is a great idea, No need for Hyperion to "sanction" another replacement as you can use what you want anyway.
Chris
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@ Kamelito
Ha, you say like windows, no thanks.
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I'd rather have a more sparse, bare bones OS like OS4 and have the option of adding programs to do things rather than have it built into the OS.
Virtually everything you suggested there Kamelito, I'd never use, it'd be more bloat added to OS4. There's add on programs that do most of that stuff if you wanted it, and all without bloating out a trim, lean little OS. Never understood why people want things more complex than they need to be, especially when add on apps are widely available for those that really love to tweak. I like the fact my SAM boots up from cold to usable status in about 4 seconds - piling more crap onto the OS would hurt that somewhat. There's very little in the way of eye candy or added functionality that a person couldn't add themselves via a simple OS4 Depot or Aminet download, so why clutter up the core OS?
Designers taking liberties to make an OS "Modern" and doing the old "people don't know what they want, so we'll just do this and SHOW THEM what a MODERN OS IS!" has been done. Repeatedly, and it's always failed. See Windows Vista and Windows 8, lol. When you try and do everything, you end up doing nothing well.
Then again, I'm a pretty basic OS4 user. Outside of a DirOpus and CED icon on the WB screen, my desktop is bare. I even get rid of the default installed dock and just live in a CLI window. People like OS4 because of the lean simplicity, imo.
You effectively just described Windows with your "modern features list".
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I've always loved the standard WB mainly because I can set it up whichever way I can possibly imagine:)
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Yes, I love Workbench and would not like to see it replaced or drastically changed. Some updating is ok with me, especially if new workings can be turned off to be more traditional like I like my Amiga. For example, in the newest AmigaOS versions screens can be dragged in any direction if desired, but I prefer the traditional Amiga way of one direction only so limit it to that in the settings. Also, I don't run AmiDock at all -- preferring a simple Workbench. I use addmenu by Alex C. to add Workbench menus for launching frequently used programs (akin to the old Tools Daemon).
That said, must admit DOpus 5 has some nice features. Rather than replacing Workbench with it, I have a dual display setup with my X1000 and run Workbench on the left monitor and DOpus on the right. Suits me.... best of both worlds, and there's good old Workbench. Not being Windows-like. Hehe.
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Is Workbench modular enough to add to it without making great changes?
How far along is Aros 68K?
edit:
I would admit that having a new window to open up each time can be aggravating.
The icons still do not stay put, unless that has been fixed.
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Icons and windows do indeed stay put how you arrange them -- if you snapshop them. That's the Amiga way. The way the universe should be. Hehe. Anything else means corruption by the Windows way has settled in.
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I'd rather have a more sparse, bare bones OS like OS4 and have the option of adding programs to do things rather than have it built into the OS.
Virtually everything you suggested there Kamelito, I'd never use, it'd be more bloat added to OS4. There's add on programs that do most of that stuff if you wanted it, and all without bloating out a trim, lean little OS.
Now that you mention lean, I'd like to point out that the current Workbench is about as far away from that goal as you can possibly get whilst at the same time giving the appearance of offering a restricted set of functionality. It may seem simple and bare-bones, but not by design, only by accident.
Workbench today is built upon code which reaches back to 1985, when it was created under great pressure. That code was overhauled in 1989/1990, reworked in 1998/1999 and has seen numerous changes over the following decade. What did not change in all this time is the basic architecture, which very much restricts what changes are possible in the first place. At its heart the Workbench today is still very much the same thing at it was 30 years ago. What Workbench does today ought to be done with less effort and resources spent: the results should be reflected in how they came about.
I tried my best back in 1998/1999 to open up the Workbench APIs, rework the input and refresh logic, allow for operations to run in parallel, but there was only so much you could do. Workbench is like the world's biggest ball of twine, except when you pull hard on the twine, the ball doesn't unravel, it actually pulls you back with twice the force.
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Very interesting read, and yeah - I always wondered what sort of mess there was internally in OS4 despite the speedy and fairly lean user and performance side us general grunts see with daily use. Sometimes you can put lipstick on a pig, as they say.
A friend I used to work with used to call such things as "A ball of spagetti, held together with about 3000 of those little tiny band aids".
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It appears to me that icons do not stay after snapshot. Unless I missed something.
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@trekej
really? i've never had that problem, either on AOS3 or AOS4. snapshot always works for me. oh, and fyi, if you hold down the right-amiga key when you double-click on a drawer, the parent window will close when it opens a new window.
-- eliyahu
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It appears to me that icons do not stay after snapshot. Unless I missed something.
I've never used OS4, but if this was OS3 or 2 even, then what you're describing is files with no icon image (no associated .info file). Files with no icons cannot be snapshotted as they don't have a real icon in which to save its position. In this case the Workbench uses the default icons depending on the file's type (tool, project, drawer or even disk).
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Sorry, I can not really remember the situation. The Workbench icons do not seem to be aligned, I guess after booting or rebooting. Maybe I just can not remember this very well. It may have been fixed since then. Maybe I am still asleep. :)
I did not now about the Right-Amiga double click. The way Aros can go back up with the Arrow is good for me.
I would like to get documentation on the Amiga OS.
Wikipedia, I believe,talked about the modularity of Amiga OS.
This could be why there was some cool add-ons for the Amiga.
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Icons and windows do indeed stay put how you arrange them -- if you snapshop them. That's the Amiga way. The way the universe should be. Hehe. Anything else means corruption by the Windows way has settled in.
:roflmao:Mike you read my mind bro :pint:
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So all this talk about how the folders open up new windows, etc reminds me of the Nautilus Spatial feature that the Gnome developers tried to release at some point in time.
https://people.gnome.org/~bmsmith/build/nautilus-spatial-mode.html
When it first appeared, I was thinking "sweet, it works just like the Amiga!" but there was so much fallout from that feature being default, they changed it from that to an option. Then they removed it entirely when they rewrote nautilus for Gnome 3. I was kind of sad to see it go.
These are some of the features that kamelito asked for, they're all in Nautilus, explorer, dolphin, etc. I say leave the Amiga the way it is :D
slaapliedje
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MorphOS can be configured to be very OS3.x-like, and that's how I've got my system configured. The only thing I really miss is that not all of the traditional menu options are available in the pull down menus. They are in the context menus, though.
Spent a long time tweaking and changing things but couldn't quite get it to feel like an Amiga. The butterfly doesn't help, miss my boing ball ;-)
The bones of MorphOS is good however, hardware support is better than AmigaOS 4.X. The developers are quicker to release updates and work on driver support. Heck even my 9800pro card works with it on my Pegasos II board.
Warp3d on AmigaOS 4.X is starting to make some improvements but they have side stepped some older hardware, come on support a the 9800pro!!
Hoping for some OS3 love with the warp drivers so I can finally ditch my Voodoo 5 and use the 9200 for more than just a RAM card.
Anyway back OT. Don't go changing the GUI :-)
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Sorry, I can not really remember the situation. The Workbench icons do not seem to be aligned, I guess after booting or rebooting. Maybe I just can not remember this very well. It may have been fixed since then. Maybe I am still asleep. :)
You say you want them "aligned", or to stay in one place? This is two different things. Also older versions of Workbench lacked some of the features of newer. Try MagicMenu, I think it adds even more options. But you can definitely do align, you can even change to something like "show all files" "view by name" (instead of by icon) and snapshot the directory to always display that way. Only hard one is getting the AppIcons to stay in place, because those need to be snapshotted in their original drawer, not in their position on the Workbench. Fun stuff! :)
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I do find it rather funny, I almost always forget to snapshot things, but it is kind of one of those crappy, yet awesome features that I haven't seen in any other OS. Most of them just allow list, icon view, sort alphabetical, ascending, descending, sort by date, etc. But I don't know a single one that just lets you sort them however you damn well please.
slaapliedje
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I think when it boots they are not aligned.
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I do find it rather funny, I almost always forget to snapshot things, but it is kind of one of those crappy, yet awesome features that I haven't seen in any other OS. Most of them just allow list, icon view, sort alphabetical, ascending, descending, sort by date, etc. But I don't know a single one that just lets you sort them however you damn well please.
Tell me about it, man. I'm in the process of replacing all my standard 3.9 GlowIcons with Ken's Icons right now. Looks beautiful, but after six hours of hunting through archives to find "just the right one", copying it over the old one, then "clean up by name", "resize to fit", "snapshot", I think I'm about done! ;) Thank god at least 3.9 supports drag & drop replacement of icons, back in the day I'd have been up all night doing this! ;)
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I think when it boots they are not aligned.
Gonna need more information than that! :lol:
- What version of Workbench?
- What version of Kickstart?
- Which icons, specifically, are you referring to? The main Workbench screen, icons inside a drawer, or somewhere else?
- See the last screenshot in my above post - do you know where those options are? "Window", "Clean up by...", "Snapshot Window", "Snapshot All", etc.
- Are you selecting the icons you want snapshotted when you click on "Snapshot"? Alternatively, if you want an entire drawer of icons snapshotted you should have the parent drawer itself selected
- Are you running MagicMenus? If so, what version?
- Are you running any other hacks or patches or tools that could be interfering with placement of icons?
- Can you post a screenshot?
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I think os3.1 on the workbench. At times the drawers are a mess. I do believe Aros may have the same problem.
It will clean and snapshot. I seem to have to repeat it. I feel like it has been this way since the 90's
plain jane workbench
Unless I am confused with os2.x
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I think os3.1 on the workbench. At times the drawers are a mess. I do believe Aros may have the same problem.
It will clean and snapshot. I seem to have to repeat it. I feel like it has been this way since the 90's
plain jane workbench
Unless I am confused with os2.x
I can't speak for AROS, but you you might want to try again under AmigaOS. It's worked just fine for me (and most other users) since 1985. ;)
I would recommend when you're ready to start troubleshooting this, post a screenshot. I suspect you're not clicking on the right thing. For example if you're telling it to snapshot a window but you don't have any window selected. There are a couple different options and they can be confusing. Am sure it's something simple though. :)
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Bring back P.O.S.! ;)
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Bring back P.O.S.! ;)
The thing I remember about pOS is a breakout game that I've seen in an Amiga faire.
But it could be a good idea depending on the specs.
Since ProDAD still exist we can maybe contact them and do a bounty a bit like for DOpus. (http://www.prodad.com/)
Kamelito
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I've never used OS4, but if this was OS3 or 2 even, then what you're describing is files with no icon image (no associated .info file). Files with no icons cannot be snapshotted as they don't have a real icon in which to save its position. In this case the Workbench uses the default icons depending on the file's type (tool, project, drawer or even disk).
Quoting myself here, but it really does sound like you have drawers and files with no .icon file. Files or drawers without icons will never snapshot. In the window/icons menu untick 'Show All Files' and those files and drawers without icon files will disappear.
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@ _Mike
I do not have a working amiga right now.
The A1000 I have is still in pieces.
I need to finish painting it.
On a side note, is it possible to hook an Amiga 1000 genlock to other Amiga's with a cable?