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AuthorTopic: "Friendly Fire"  (Read 3162 times)

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Offline Karlos

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2007, 11:32:57 AM »
@jkirk

Ah, but you are seemingly missing the depth of cynicism here. I'm suggesting that in light of this it's conceivable that some of these "successes" that have been reported, such as the "elimination" of "groups of insurgents" etc. were in fact just similar blunders made against ordinary Iraqis.

How many reports were there that contradicted said claims of success? Easily brushed off as anti US propaganda (regardless of the news agency reporting it) or occasionally "irresponsible reporting" and the like?

After all, when it comes to the word of an unknown hysterical grieving civillian versus some top general bloke talking about "successes" on enemy "targets", who are the masses at home going to believe?

It would be laughably easy for the military to simply claim they killed a few insurgents *every single time* they make a c0ckup like this and kill a few ordinary people. It's only when they hit themselves or their own allies do you see them struggling to hide it.

Three years of obstruction in an inquiry that has only been revealed in the light of the leaking of the footage.

"There is no video"
"There is a video but it's classified"
"The video is the property of the US government and we can't get it"
"Whoever leaked it was acting illegally"

:roll:
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Offline adz

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2007, 11:34:51 AM »
Quote

jkirk wrote:

my heart goes out to the family of the killed soldier and hope his death was not in vain. :-(


Of course his death was in vain, as are all the casualties in this damned war, if he wasn't there in the first place he would still be alive. Pretty simple concept, well to everybody outside the US it is...
 

Offline jkirk

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2007, 01:04:02 PM »
Quote
Ah, but you are seemingly missing the depth of cynicism here. I'm suggesting that in light of this it's conceivable that some of these "successes" that have been reported, such as the "elimination" of "groups of insurgents" etc. were in fact just similar blunders made against ordinary Iraqis.


i am not debating this is a possibility since there is a damn good possibility that this is true. i am referring to all the minor operations that go off without a hitch by superior leaders. that nobody gets killed(including innocent iraqis). we will never hear about them since it is not newsworthy. in those cases the modus operandi works since it is implemented properly. now if there are no such cases this is very bad for the training of us combat troops. the training of support troops is minimal(i used to be one).
 
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Offline jkirk

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2007, 01:13:21 PM »
Quote

adz wrote:
Quote

jkirk wrote:

my heart goes out to the family of the killed soldier and hope his death was not in vain. :-(


Of course his death was in vain, as are all the casualties in this damned war, if he wasn't there in the first place he would still be alive. Pretty simple concept, well to everybody outside the US it is...


if something positive comes out of this incident. attitudes changed, policy changed, or new training implemented to avoid this in the future he did not die in vain. there would be meaning to his death.

however if he was killed and no positive steps were taken to avoid a repeat of this, he did die in vain.

as long as this issue raises the ire of civilians on both sides there is a chance that something positive will come of this. this is probably why it was leaked in the first place. if this was written off as a fluke and hidden as it appears to have been the person that leaked it probably wanted to draw attention so his death would not be in vain.

these are my opinions of course.
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Offline nadoom

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2007, 04:47:51 PM »
USA military is a blunt instrument, who rely to heavily on technology to achieve its aims, this leads to many civilian casualties and the occasional friendly fire incident.

In their eyes the aftermath is always some one elses problem.

Did he die in vain? all of people who died fighting in iraq are died in vain, not to mention the people who dont even have blood on their hands i.e civilians.
?وإلل وإلل وإلل, وأت د وي هف هر ثهن
 

Offline cecilia

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2007, 05:04:40 PM »
Quote

odin wrote:
Well, war is hell and all the training and precautions can't garantuee that stuff like this doesn't happen. In the end every death is one too many, be it friendly or foe.
that's why you don't start a war......even if it's the "only" choice, i'd still rethink and find another way.
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Offline jkirk

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2007, 05:21:40 PM »
Quote
In their eyes the aftermath is always some one elses problem.


do you have proof of this or are you assuming all military members feel this way?

i don't believe this statement applies to the us military. this may apply to the leadership or some of the troops but throwing around generic statements assuming it is true is wrong.

Quote
USA military is a blunt instrument, who rely to heavily on technology to achieve its aims

very true statement

Quote
this leads to many civilian casualties and the occasional friendly fire incident.

wrong wrong wrong
human error leads to that or even human incompetance.

Quote
Did he die in vain? all of people who died fighting in iraq are died in vain, not to mention the people who dont even have blood on their hands i.e civilians.


i don't think so (at least not yet)i will withhold that judgement until this is over. but i accept you have your own opinions.

The only stupid question is a question not asked.  


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Offline mel_zoom

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2007, 07:48:01 PM »
cecilia:

"even if it's the "only" choice, i'd still rethink and find another way."

Well you are homogametic and therefore common sense is naturally expressed in your makeup. Unfortunately the world is largely ran by people with a common genetic defect - theyre heterogametic. This typically stunts their level reasoning so that it doesnt develop beyond the schoolyard level ;-)

On a serious note though the powers that make the decisions about going to war can rarely see anything beyond their own noses - they simply are happy to wade in with their guns blazing without any thought given to what happens afterwards.
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Offline odin

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2007, 08:15:10 PM »
Quote
On a serious note though the powers that make the decisions about going to war can rarely see anything beyond their own noses - they simply are happy to wade in with their guns blazing without any thought given to what happens afterwards.

I think they can see perfectly clear what's beyond their noses, they just don't give toss. Their care starts and ends with elections.

Offline mel_zoom

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2007, 08:19:29 PM »
odin:

So are you suggesting that basically democracy is flawed when it comes to important decisions?
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Offline Fraccy

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2007, 08:29:52 PM »
Heterogametics tend to be risk-takers; there's an argument that this provides the driving force for our species. Fortunately they're largely expendable too.

Homogametics don't get off so easy though. Without heterogametics, humanity would have stagnated long ago.
 

Offline Fraccy

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2007, 08:35:14 PM »
@mel_zoom

"So are you suggesting that basically democracy is flawed when it comes to important decisions?"

Read the novel "Starship Troopers" by Robert Heinlein (or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_troopers).

Democracy is probably another failed system, like Communism. We'll find out more definitely towards the middle of this century.
 

Offline mel_zoom

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2007, 08:37:09 PM »
fraccy:

"Homogametics don't get off so easy though"

Unlike heterogametics who "get off" far too easily! Often on destructive things :-P
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Offline odin

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2007, 08:55:04 PM »
I'd say it's the least failed government system we've seen so far, but yes, still very flawed. An ideal system would be a dictatorship. With me at the helm ;-).

Offline adz

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2007, 09:20:29 PM »
@jkirk

Nothing has changed in American policy in over 50 years, what makes you think it will change in the future? My late grandfather (who served in New Guinea during WWII) could attest to this as he had a saying;

"Never stand in front of a yank with a machine gun..."

I think that sums it up nicely.