Amiga User Turns to PegasosII

[KennyR]

Wayne wrote:
...but Amiga Forever is faster at emulating the Amiga on my Athlon XP 2800 than my Pegasos G3 is at being one.

I have to say that I don't agree there. An Athlon 2800 leaves a G3 choking in dust, but WinUAE is as slow as a dog, especially where graphics are concerned. I'd still prefer my Peg to UAE, even in just the speed stakes.

[sean_y_bay_b]

Code: [Select]

Wayne:

The difference is, I can actually turn off Amiga
forever and get some actual work done.

Ouch! The Truth!! et tu Brute? I guess we should expect nothing less from the webmaster.

[System]

Ouch! The Truth!! et tu Brute? I guess we should expect nothing less from the webmaster.

{rant warning! :-)}

I never expected that my words would be taken too correctly. I'm not trying to slam the Amiga, classic or otherwise.  I just don't personally see any real use for them, because aside from AO and SpookyChick.com, I work on with a computer.  I don't really game on my computer (now that I have an X-Box).  

I need a computer that's able to do everything possible, without a need for a master's degree to run it.

For me, I have a lot of experience with Windows (all models to date).  I am, in fact -- thanks to one of my former employers -- highly trained in Windows and the Intel hardware platform, up to and including XP.  For me, XP works and works well.  Come to think of it, I now have about as much life experience with the PC as I do with the Amiga.

Never got into Linux, because until recently, they pretty much DID need a master's degree to run it and let's face it.  Once I passed 21 years old, my desire to tinker with, futz with, and learn operating systems has vastly diminished.  

There's a reason I LOVE my Tivo, and no, it's not just because it's a pain in the ass to program the VCR.

Now, getting back to the Amiga.  I'm sorry.  It's not my intent to insult anyone or dissuade you from following your hobby.  Let's be honest here folks.  It's a hobby.  Nothing more.  

I have been writing an in-depth article with a friend of mine examining the future of the AmigaOne platform, but let's just sum up that I believe there are now simply too many "catch-22's" for it to succeed.  This also applies equally to the Pegasos.

- needs buyers to be cheaper
- needs developers to write software to attract buyers
- can't attract developers without giving away hardware
- can't give away hardware because of lack of budget
- can't get a budget because it has limited buyers.

The list goes on, but the trap here is that the Pegasos and AmigaOne have pretty much already sold to as many Amiga users as there are out there.  From the company's perspective they pretend that they have sold these systems (or given them away) to "2,000 developers", but we all know the truth.  

So in the end, again in my opinion, both the AmigaOne and Pegasos are simply ways to speed up the Classic Amiga.  Really nothing wrong with that at all, if that's what you want, but it'll never be successful on the business desktop which is where the money is.  The only possible exception is in the guise of embedded devices (such as Tivos and home networking devices).

AmigaOne people are quick to point out "but AmigaOS runs OS4 applications!!!!".  The problem is -- and it goes right back to the circle of catch-22's -- there really aren't any AmigaOS4 applications yet.  

More power to everyone.  Really.  I just wish they'd get done already..  

Wayne

[JKD]

I think that what you say is a widely held view, or at least I hope I do. Can there really be people out there who still believe AmigaOS (and it's compatibles) are relevant in the outside world?

No, the strategy has to be to try and leverage the hardware with something else (linux, set-top box, dev platform...) in the hope to secure enough money to fund both strategic and marginal development activity. How one does this when facing the biggest catch-22 of them all = the hardware cost, I really do not know.

All I know is that the Pegasos meets my limited hobby goals and piques my interest enough that I'll support the platform in whatever way possible, because I enjoy doing so.

Whither now the Amiga compatibles, beyond the hobby market???

Look forward to your article.

Steve

[Legerdemain]

Now, getting back to the Amiga. I'm sorry. It's not my intent to insult anyone or dissuade you from following your hobby. Let's be honest here folks. It's a hobby. Nothing more.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. It is really what people want it to be, not what you "consider" it to be. You could say the same for Microsoft when they started out, who could have believed that they ever would succeed (bad example since they started out from scratch, but anyways)? Or that Nintendo ever would seem to rise like a phoenix again (well, they have pretty much succeeded in that when it comes to the companies way of regarding the new upcoming handheld).

What I mean is... that, if you chose to make something absolute and non-questionable, you take away ALL the possabilites. I'm not saying that most people don't regard their AMiGA as a hobby computer, or that it is almost impossible for the AMiGA to ever be mainstream again (anybody here that believes that Ace of Base ever will have an U.S. No. 1 again?), but, hobby or not... let it be whatever it is to those involved, not what you consider it to be. Really.

[crown]

About having no use of a Pegasos like Wayne here said, have you looked into the new open workstation concept?

I sold both my Peg 1 and peg 2 because I had no use for an amiga emulator. I simply realised I had no interest in any 3rd party solutuion. MorpOs might be a usefull system some day, when it´s amiga ties doesn't hold it back anymore. That's a natural development, and I think it's clear that MorpOS is slowly leaving the amiga community. But today I agree with Wayne. It´s not usable in the real world.

But as a Linux box, peg 2 is really good. I'm going to order one (again!) for the sole purpose of using it as a low cost server suitable for a already hot enviroment. Supported by IBM and a large group of Linux users, I'd bet money that Pegasos will live on and prosper.

My review would be: Can´t see that I'd ever use MorpOs again, but the Pegasos II is really great!

[System]

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. It is really what people want it to be, not what you "consider" it to be.

Semantics, but time will tell.  I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.  I would ask anyone who honestly believes that the new Amiga will be successful on the desktop to tell me one thing.  How?

You could say the same for Microsoft when they started out, who could have believed that they ever would succeed (bad example since they started out from scratch, but anyways)?

No, you couldn't.  Apples and oranges here, and the PC world of 1981 was a hell of a lot different than it is today.  Something kids today have no concept of.

In 1981, there were no standards for a PC.  No ISA slots, no parallel port standards, not even extended keyboard standards.  Amiga COULD HAVE EASILY become the standard, but failed.  The world was clamoring for standards on the PC and Microsoft/Intel saw this and gave the manufacturers EXACTLY what they wanted.

A way to build a cheap, standard PC that would run the same software on it, regardless of who made the hardware. (Some of you might realize after reading that, that it sounds eerily reminiscent of the mantra behind AmigaDE -- so much for original thoughts eh?).

Back then, the name brand on the PC really DID matter.

Microsoft's DOS product also came with every single Intel-based machine I ever bought, or it was put on every machine I ever hand built.  I tried DR-DOS and a few others, and used to laugh my way through QuarterDeck's MultiView on my early 386 machines, but things today are different.

Hardware is cheap, standard, and omnipresent.  The idea of "oh god, it has to have 128 megabytes of ram to even run" is irrelevant when a 512 megabyte stick of ram is $70 and hard drives are less than a dollar per Gigabyte.  

In contrast, In 1991 or so, I spent $400 on four (yes 4) megabytes of zip ram for my 3000 and $975 on two 155 MEGABYTE hard drives for my BBS, so things are completely different today.

In 2004 (or even 2000), there is no industry that is clamoring for a cheap PowerPC based computer.  Everyone already has Windows, and in most cases -- like it or not -- it comes with the box you buy.

The only realm open to even any sort of desktop revolution is Linux.  The question is, are there enough Linux geeks out there who hate Intel so much that they're willing to invest 3x the cost of a standard PC just to spite their cheaper and faster Intel boxes?

My bet?  Doubtful, but no one, including Alan, really knows at what point they can start offering lower prices.

The fact is folks, the Amiga community was just badly managed "startup gravy" for both companies. Not that they don't have their own interesting problems, but both Amiga Inc and Genesi would be idiots in 2004 to be looking at their Amiga efforts to support them when the Linux community is 100x as strong.

Honestly?  Good luck to both companies, but don't waste any sleep waiting on either "Amiga" alternative.

[GadgetMaster]

Hmm... Windows

I guess I should like it as it keeps me in a job. Keeps the money flowing in. Gets anything you would want to do with a computer done without too much hassle.

erm... Amiga

I guess I should hate it as it is an expensive hobby. Keeps draining my wallet. It is a challenge to get it to a stage where I can impress people.

But then again, we don't always make sensible decisions when it comes these sort of things :-D

I guess that about sums it up (for me at least)

BTW Where I work they can charge up to £55 ($98.51) to reinstall Windows XP for a customer :lol:

/EDIT

I only fix the prolems, I don't set the prices

[System]

But then again, we don't always make sensible decision when it comes these sort of things

No, we don't.  I openly accept and can really appreciate that the Amiga for most people today is a matter of zealotous pride (not saying that as a bad thing).  

You know what?  If I weren't paid (at the time) to learn, support, and operate Windows, I might not have ever gotten over the "Windows is evil" {bleep}.  Windows isn't evil.  Just like the Amiga, it has it's good points, and it's bad points and it's all in what you've gotten used to.

I just guess, in my old age ;-), that I've gotten to a point where I expect that spending obscene amounts of money on a computer had better damned well get you the best computer on the market.  

Whether or not you consider "the best" to be the AmigaOne or Pegasos is really none of my damned business.  Spend away.

Me?  I'd rather have a decent PC (like I have now) and a lot of cool toys -- like digital cameras, laser color printers, or DVD+R drives --to go with it.

For me (age 37), there's really no magic left in computers to discover.  I'd much rather get into creating my own Internet Radio station or operating a Web-based business.  Something that would bring *IN* money rather than me shelling it out for a change.  I guess that comes with age.

[Warface]

Now, getting back to the Amiga. I'm sorry. It's not my intent to insult anyone or dissuade you from following your hobby. Let's be honest here folks. It's a hobby. Nothing more.

Right. But at home I had my Amiga and Pegasos, of which the first died (luckily after I had my Pegasos) - now I have a Pegasos, and nothing else, and it does pretty much everything I want from it. Well, I have to forget the game paradise of Windows, doing serious work at home (well, I could manage to do that with MacOnLinux if I had to, the speed is quite acceptable), but I feel like home, watching movies, ircing, browsing, whatever. Doing my time. And I like it, and I love that there's progress around my chosen hobby.

[AmiGR]

It depends on your needs and your point of view.
I use a P233 PC as an OpenBSD server, this celeron
PC, an AthlonXP 2800+ pc and the Peg1 with MorphOS.
MorphOS really does all I need it to do, I use it
mostly for painless programming of simple stuff
(that will become complex stuff during this summer;-).
If you buy a Peg2 as a server, I find no reason for you not to try out MorphOS 1.5 once it's out.

[sean_y_bay_b]

@Wayne

I meant the comment to be respectful of your honesty. I wasn't asking for an explanation, but since you gave one:

Well said!

[System]

I have a Pegasos, and nothing else, and it does pretty much everything I want from it.

Then that's all you could ever ask for.  Some people's mileage may vary.

[SlimJim]

Guess I should've jumped off the Amiga bandwagon a long time ago if I wasn't so bloody stubborn ... :-)

I use Linux (almost) exclusively these days, both at work and at home. Windows is really not needed for anything important I do, professional or otherwise. I use Windows for exactly one thing, and that is to start it and click on the icon of a game. As soon as I stop playing (and I'm no big gamer either) I close down Windows. That's all I need it for.
 
I fully intend to start using the AmigaOS4 prerelease once it's out though. Because no matter how much use I find in Linux, it's not really "my" OS, I have no real vested emotional interest in its future. I'll be damned if I dropped Amiga now - after all I've grown up with and vocally advocated Amiga for the better part of my entire life, dammit!
.
SlimJim

[pVC]

"Everyone is different. I basically live on the Internet."

Me too. Only things I do with computer is nowadays using Internet, playing mp3 and some little coding occasionally.

"The Amiga, classic or otherwise is pitifully lacking in that arena. Always has been."

I personally disagree with this. I have always found classic Amiga to be best in internet use. Browsing is snappier due the lighter browsers (I agree they don't support latest multimedia crap, but who _really_ needs them. I get everything done without them too.). For IRC, telnet, ssh, ftp etc there are very good programs and Amiga's UI and OS-design makes them better to use than corresponding ones in Windows for example. I find overall net usage much easier and more efficient on Amiga than on other platforms. I have PC with XP too. Sure it supports all the latest browsing things (which isn't big slice of my net usage), but it's pain in the ass to use on internet. Have had Linux on it and Sparc too, but it has never got me to reduce Amiga use.

And I wonder too, how people can give up their Amigas.. no computer has ever served as long as my classic Amiga and will ever serve. I just don't have heart to give up it, even if I'd start using some other platform.

[System]

Like I said, you're welcome to disagree, your mileage vary.  

don't support latest multimedia crap, but who _really_ needs them.

Anyone who gets paid to write Internet applications, that's who.  Most people nowadays have never even heard of the Amiga any more -- or view it as an oddity, like the TI/99.  

As such, when they pay you to develop a Web site, it almost always involves the "multimedia crap" that *I* would consider the most bare of essentials (such as Macromedia's Flash, Java programming, extended Javascript, or even BASIC Cascading Style Sheets).  

It's very difficult to even find any program or Web site these days that doesn't RELY heavily on those rudimentary items to function (This website, out of the box included -- It took a LOT of hard work to strip the CSS out of Amiga.org for you guys and your antiquated systems).

These are basic things that the PC and Apple Internet world have enjoyed for going on 10 years and by now, it's *almost* inexcusable for the Amiga not to support them.  

I say almost, because I honestly believe the browser writers have done a great job considering they can no longer get paid to write Amiga browsers.  The fact that any Amiga browser is updated at all in 2004 is a frickin miracle to me.

If you're happy with the Amiga, more power to ya.  I'm not trying at all to dissuade you.  I'm simply stating my viewpoint.  Since receiving Amiga Forever, I don't even have to have an Amiga to check the site's code any more and to be honest, I need the desktop space for more important things.