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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« on: November 10, 2013, 11:27:05 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;752428
Their sales model is a bit misleading.  It's AROS hosted on top of Linux and then they make of point of saying that they have a hosted version that runs on top of your current OS (Windows or Linux) and a "native" version which runs as a primary OS.

The hosting of a hosted OS as it were.  This isn't offering us anything we don't already have thru IcarosDesktop, AEROS, or any of the other AROS variants, except a price tag.  Yawn.....


I could of course be wrong, but perhaps it's rather "merged" than hosted? I have for example seen references to Anubis, which speaks in favor of this.
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2013, 04:04:18 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;752439
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;752433
I could of course be wrong, but perhaps it's rather "merged" than hosted? I have for example seen references to Anubis, which speaks in favor of this.

That's about as ridiculous as [...]


Really? Well...



Judging from this picture, it seems kind of "merged" if you ask me...

:cool:
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2013, 06:19:08 PM »
@ferrellsl

I may not know much about ARIX yet (and neither do you or anyone else outside "the loop"), but one thing I know for certain is that you have made a complete fool out of yourself in this thread, acting like a clown from the very beginning, making wild claims and accusations  when no info about it was known, and when real info is slowly starting to be released and when people with real life knowledge of the thing corrects you, you don't back down and stand corrected, no, you persist your claims like only a fool would.

:rant:

Why don't you just sit back and wait?

:confused:
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2013, 07:55:20 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;753048






"That's a pretty accurate diagram of a typical Amithlon system."

/Bernd Meyer

http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/243950.shtml

:cool:
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2013, 08:48:47 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;753088
Well, actually I HAVE sat back and waited, only to be shown nothing by the folks behind that ridiculous countdown timer.  How much longer do you suggest we all wait? And at least I've presented an argument while you insist on calling me names.  That's very weak in light of the fact that we were promised some answers when the countdown ended.  Show me some facts......


Well, the "counter incident" indeed seems to have upset you (and others, both here and elsewhere). But really, nothing has been sold, nothing was promised (except *info* at that point in time, which has now slided to "Throughout the week" (and will likely slide even more if you ask me)).

Save the critique to when there is something to criticize, don't go making things up to fit any agendas of yours, or your "beef with dammy" or whatever. Indeed there isn't much info released, despite the "countdown on the webpage". But IMHO, this doesn't (at this time at least) warrant comments like:

  • "lame attempt to scam uninformed Amigans out of some cash"
  • "This is Linux hosting AROS, nothing more, nothing less....except that they want you to pay money for it."
  • "Whether or not they've stripped X from this Linux distro or not, is immaterial, it's still Linux, which I can get for free."
  • "This is the same smoke-and-mirrors marketing used by the guy behind OpenOS4 and Anubis."
  • "Arix will be just another Linux distro or Aros hosted on Linux."


Etc, etc.

I'm not saying you are wrong, because I don't know. But on the other hand, you can't say you are right because you don't know either! That's my point! And the fact is that several people (who claims to *actually know*) has told you repeatedly that in fact *you are wrong*!

These are Open Source developers in the AROS community. They aren't used to deadlines (maybe professionally, but not in their spare time "Amiga" hobby at least), or any kind of management for that matter (again, in their "Amiga" hobby). And nobody has been sold anything, not even promised anything (except that info would be made available when the web countdown reached zero, but that's all).

So maybe cut them some slack? Sharpen that broad-axe of yours in the meantime, but don't go waiving it around in the AROS crowd at this time, OK?

;)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 08:51:01 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;753117
After all, Linux has had SMP support for some time.
What does that suggest?


That ARIX isn't a SMP design?

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38282&forum=2&start=300&viewmode=flat&order=0#722874

;)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 05:52:54 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;753156
that depends on the definition of "SMP design".


The definition of SMP is actually a quite clear. ;)

Quote
It already uses more than one core on system level and they are obviously evaluating ways to use it in other cases.


AMP/ASMP is not SMP though...

Quote
SMP for applications is still in testing/development ("silly SMP") and I think Jason mentioned that it would need 6 months to implement. But it will come do not worry :-)


"Silly-SMP" is just what the name suggest: Silly! It's may be a fun/interesting test or experiment, but even if it will be finished I doubt it will ever be used for real, it simply makes no sense. SMP breaks Amiga, it simply can not exist in an Amiga context without breaking the compatibility. And if you will break the compatibility you would be much better off implementing a *proper* SMP instead. So putting effort into this is indeed silly. ;)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 06:01:53 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;753170
So folk, our first support for multiple cores.


PowerUP was "our" first support for multiple cores (more than one and a half decade ago)! ;)

Quote
And if you expect more than ASMP out of Amiga OS 4.2 you might be too optimistic.


Actually, I think you might be too optimistic if you expect OS 4.2 at all (;)), but given what has been said about "Kernel X" or whatever they call it, it actually aims for SMP.
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2013, 09:57:33 AM »
@OlafS3

Quote from: OlafS3;753176
Perhaps they are better than the Aros devs, who knows...

Who knows, but it doesn't matter; anyone with enough low-level knowledge to make an Operating System from scratch in the first place, can probably create a proper SMP scheduler with the required API to make a proper, multithreaded SMP OS. Much research has been done in this area and much theory and many models about this exist, so evaluate them, choose one, and implement it to the best of your ability. But that was obviously not my point. I never commented on neither the AROS nor the OS4 developers ability to create a SMP OS.

The point is that you could have one of two ambitions/objectives with your "Amiga" OS:
  • Retain the Amiga compatibility (SMP *impossible*, 31-bit memory space, etc)
  • Break the Amiga compatibility (SMP possible, 64-bit, along with a lot of other stuff)

ARIX seems to be about the first option (quotes from the AW.net thread):
  • "It's not an SMP design, rather similar to AMP"
  • "the API is AROS [Read: Amiga]. You can in principle run all AROS software on ARIX"
  • "Yes, without recompiling"
[/I]
Hyperion's "X Kernel" on the other hand is definitely Option 2, thus "inverting" the three bullet points above; "It's a SMP design, the API won't be (legacy)Amiga, you can't run all OS4/Amiga software on 'X Kernel', not without recompiling, including 'fixing' any legacy dependencies and modifying to become as multithreaded/parallel as possible". (BTW, the OS4 "team lead", ssolie, has said he wants to merge the "Exec SG" with "X Kernel" down the line, which of course was a rather amusing thing to say by someone in his position! :lol:)

Your comment...

   "SMP for applications is still in testing/development ("silly SMP") and I think Jason mentioned that it would need 6 months to implement. But it will come do not worry :-)"

...would mean a change in ambition/objective in ARIX from option 1 to option 2. There is no option "1.5", no sliding scale. Legacy compatibility will be lost, and programs will have to be recompiled (etc). It's just that "Silly-SMP" never had the ambition of being the very best (or even a good one at all for that matter) SMP implementation; it's entire point seems to have been an experiment to prove those wrong who claimed that "SMP can't be done in Exec", and it does contains a lot of trade-offs to make it possible; "utilizing the extra cores to *some* degree, is better than nothing, even if being far from optimal or what's actually possible in other models". It may indeed prove those people wrong (we'll see if it gets that far), but "Silly-SMP" does *not* however prove those wrong who claims that "SMP can't be done in an Amiga legacy compatible environment" (and it can't!), so if the ARIX people would indeed change their mind, and opt for Option 2 instead later on, it would be quite silly to use "Silly-SMP" instead of a better, established and tried model.

That was my point.

:)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 04:24:28 PM »
Quote from: vidarh;753210
I seel "Silly-SMP" as an exercise in 1) seeing how far you can get *while* retaining compatibility

No exercise needed to see that it won't be neither binary compatible (had it been running on AROS 68k on non-existent dual CPU 68k HW), and it won't be source code compatible to anything and everything written for AmigaOS3.x either. You would be required to not only recompile the applications, but also adapt the sources (more or less, depending on the app in question).

Have a look at this post in particular, and threads like this and this in general, and you will see that:
1) Full Amiga legacy compatibility is *impossible* to begin with  
2) and *on top of that* there are lots of hurdles to overcome and performance penalties to pay, if you *persist* in going this way despite the fact that you have already broken compatibility and a rebuild of the SW base will be required anyway (hence an opportunity to introduce a SMP model that is more *real world tried* and less "silly").

Quote
2) exposing what code actually needs to be fixed.

What you can "fix" is to overcome as many of the hurdles as possible and trying to make performance as good as possible. This is what real life testing/developing of this concept can provide. But per concept (visible in the first link above), no "code fixes" can make this fully Amiga compatible.

Quote
A lot of the "SMP is impossible" whining in these discussions

Oh please, this is not "whining". Amiga can't be SMP, per design, per concept.

Quote
is based on a "worst case" scenario where Amiga applications runs rampant all over memory and uses every dirty trick in the book all the time *and can't be fixed*.

But here's the thing:

We have a very limited software catalogue. Even on classic. *Most* of those applications are going to interact with the OS in ways that breaks simple approaches to SMP in very limited ways, that can either be worked around, or patched.

Some are going to be very problematic, and you then have a few alternatives: Fix them, especially if you have the source; add hacks to work around them (up to and including "blacklisting" these applications and cause the OS to do nasty hacks when they run, up to and including sandboxing them in some way or another); or accept that they never will work outside of emulation or with SMP turned off.

But the thing is: We don't really *know*. We do know that cache coherency will be an issue for anything that tries to meddle with system structures. We do know that frequent Forbid()/Permit() would be a problem, especially if we're forced to forbid across all cores and flush caches. But we don't have accurate measures of how much software is affected how badly.

No, no, no, either it's 100% compatible, or it's NOT! There is *nothing* in between! It's purely digital, either 1 or 0, it's either fully black or fully white. Purposely building an OS that sits in the grey scale between black and white will mean that its applications will be running in a mine field; Some may perhaps run, some longer than others, but there are no guarantees whatsoever. This is simply not serious, it would be a joke, and any OS developer who thinks that "less than 100% compatibility/stability" is OK and actually something to *aim for*, shouldn't be taken seriously as well!

That doesn't mean that "Silly-SMP" isn't a cool thing or an interesting experiment. Which is its purpose AFAIK - being a research experiment. But it will never be a realistic or good way of bringing SMP to AROS/ARIX.

Quote
It is possible the best approach is to sandbox all old apps in an emulator and let them continue running on a single CPU, and bridge various things to the host OS.

It will be the *only* way to run legacy Amiga/AROS apps in a new, SMP enabled system. Like AROS already does with UAE. Old Amiga 68k binaries can run there, and existing/old AROS/Amiga sources can be compiled for it unchanged. The same will be for Hyperion's "X Kernel", or when MorphOS goes "4.0". When the "NG OS's" goes "NG 2" and introduces things like SMP, 64-bit, etc, this is simply the way it has to be.

But this is slightly off topic in this thread anyway, since apparently, ARIX will not be SMP!
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 05:58:53 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;753234
ARIX isn't SMP at a user level, that's is not to say it can't be in future.

And just like it will be for MorphOS and OS4 if/when they make this "NG 2" transition, it will mark a clear line between "before" and "after". It's nothing you sneak in in an afternoon and nobody will notice. The existing SW base will either have to be adapted and rebuilt for the "NG 2" with SMP, 64-bit, etc, or run in a sandbox (like UAE for example).

Maybe this isn't as dramatic for AROS/ARIX as it will be for OS4 and MorphOS, since the latter two have always had a fundamental focus on Amiga compatibility, not only source level compatibility, but also binary compatibility (which has been a central part). AROS on the other hand has always had a different view on compatibility issues (since it has mainly lived on other archs than 68k and never had a native 68k binary translator), where Amiga apps have always had to be either recompiled, or run in an emulator.

Quote
SMP certainly isn't impossible in the AmigaOS design

It certainly IS impossible if compatibility is a requirement.

If not, then sure...

:)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 06:46:28 PM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 02:24:14 PM »
@vidarh

Well then, this sounds like a plan! Go ahead! :)


@nicholas

Quote from: nicholas;753268
You might want to rethink that statement as MorphOS isn't 100% compatible with Amiga software. ;)


Maybe you meant to say that some Amiga SW isn't 100% compatible to a system that's missing Amiga HW?

;)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Arix
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2014, 07:45:21 PM »
Quote from: number6;766869
some new posts

#6


"I would have rather have had Terminills comment on it but he's still banned for another moon or so."

Their loss! In your face, AW.net! :lol: :p ;)

Good thing he can post here at least (for the moment :nervous:)...

;)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)