Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: CritAnime on November 10, 2013, 03:40:02 PM
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http://www.arixfoundation.com/sample-page/
Arix Foundation Corp was founded in 2012 in the great state of Florida by eight partners, two Europeans and six Americans. What drew the initial group of partners together was a long burning passion for a computer system designed in the 1980s called the Commodore Amiga. After Commodore’s bankruptcy in 1994, a young group of coders believed they could create an open source version of their cherished OS and began coding in 1995. It was under AROS which Arix Foundation Corp’s partners first met and worked to better the fledgling operating system called AROS.
The power of open source is what created and motivated many to contribute to AROS. However, open source is a two edge sword, direction and control is minimal to non existent which hobbled development of a remarkable OS. This is where the partners decided that a commercial fork of AROS had to happen in order to bring forth a truly modern OS that can compete in today’s marketplace.
Today, Arix Foundation Corp partners are still active with the AROS development as both groups will benefit from each others work to some degree. Much like Apple’s relationship with open source community via Darwin.
The Arix Operating System was designed to be a simple, portable and low cost operating solution that brings the user back in control over their many devices. Have you grown frustrated in having to buy multiple apps for you desktop and portable devices and they all slightly work differently with different setup or commands not too mention the cost of buying separate solutions for each device? So have we and that is one of the driving aspects of designing and implementing Arix OS. We knew there is a better way of managing the limited time you have away from work and the grind of daily living and to do it as economically as humanly possible. Our solution which is our passion, is Arix OS.
The Arix Operation System is unique on multiple levels being a virtual operating layer that is designed not only to be hearty standalone OS but also designed for living on top of your favorite desktop or portable device’s native Operating System. Arix OS supports system multi processing environment with memory protection on multiple platforms from X86, X86_64, ARM, and PPC. From a single core, to dual core to 16 or more cores, Arix OS is ready for the job.
For Arix OS 1.x series offers developers a unique capability of offering their application or games via our secure application store which they can target the CPU arch (x86, ARM, or PPC) and not worry about individual computer system requirements. Arix OS’ SDK is rich in porting tools for those who already have applications or games designed for Windows, Linux, Android, OS-X and Amiga OS. Arix OS software engineers made every possible attempt to make porting to Arix as quick and painless as possible offering the software developer a whole new market to offer their wares to.
For Arix OS 2.x series has an aggressive target of universal environment for all CPU architects. This means for developers writing/porting their code to Arix OS starting with the 2.x series, it’s a single target as it will run on all platforms supported by Arix OS.
Arix OS Hosted
Arix OS offers individuals that already are running their favorite OS the capability of running Arix OS on top of their current OS where will live in unison. Arix OS currently supports both 32 bit and 64 bit Windows, Linux, OS-X plus Android. Best part of this is that it’s a free download for individuals.
Arix OS Native
Arix OS native offers a simple and fast solution for your computing needs. No other operating system is needed, Arix OS 64 bit will directly install on your x86 system as well as supported ARM and PPC systems. You may purchase Arix OS native via our application store for a very reasonable price which includes basic support.
So a commercial fork of AROS. I wish them luck.
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So a commercial fork of AROS. I wish them luck.
It's much more than that.
Or so I hear anyway. ;)
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I've been saying for years that open-source is it own worst enemy. :) I wish them well. If it is worthy, I'll certainly give it my time.
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I have been critical of Dammy in the past, because of the CUSA stuff, however if this allows AROS to grow (and by grow I mean mature and get greater hw and sw support) then I do genuinely wish them luck. If they make a easy way of dual booting windows 8 with it, not through vm, then I would happily give it a shot.
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It should, in theory. My understanding is, and it may be faulty, is that it is AROS with the linux kernel at it's core. That should, at least, give them a wider range of drivers.
The tricky part for them is to make it commercially viable. If they can turn it into a profit, then they will have more time to devote to it and more time to make it better. Eventually, if it's successful enough, they can take it in the direction it should go.
That's the biggest obstacle to AROS right now. With no leadership, the only things devs can agree on is AmigaOS compatibility, and that, pretty much, keeps things locked in the past. Open Source can be it's own worst enemy.
But, to be fair, so can commercial enterprises. So, once again, I wish them well. I will be paying attention.
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It should, in theory. My understanding is, and it may be faulty, is that it is AROS with the linux kernel at it's core. That should, at least, give them a wider range of drivers.
The tricky part for them is to make it commercially viable. If they can turn it into a profit, then they will have more time to devote to it and more time to make it better. Eventually, if it's successful enough, they can take it in the direction it should go.
Correct on both parts. It's a wip and shall take time for everything to fall in to place the way it should.
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So a commercial fork of AROS. I wish them luck.
Their sales model is a bit misleading. This is AROS hosted on top of Linux and then they make of point of saying that they have a "hosted" version that runs on top of your current OS (Windows or Linux) and a "native" version which runs as a primary OS. The native version/primary OS is, you guess it, AROS hosted on Linux.
The hosting of a hosted OS as it were. This isn't offering us anything we don't already have thru IcarosDesktop, AEROS, or any of the other AROS variants, except a price tag. Yawn.....
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Not Found, Error 404
What is the difference between this and aros hosted? different name, wallpaper and slightly different set of out of the box applications?
They would need to do an awful lot of actual coding to get anything to be different or meaningful. AROS doesn't need another distro with different wallpapers... But thats just one man's opinion.
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Not Found, Error 404
What is the difference between this and aros hosted? different name, wallpaper and slightly different set of out of the box applications?
They would need to do an awful lot of actual coding to get anything to be different or meaningful. AROS doesn't need another distro with different wallpapers... But thats just one man's opinion.
I agree. This just looks like another lame attempt to scam uninformed Amigans out of some cash. Nothing new here.
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Their sales model is a bit misleading. It's AROS hosted on top of Linux and then they make of point of saying that they have a hosted version that runs on top of your current OS (Windows or Linux) and a "native" version which runs as a primary OS.
The hosting of a hosted OS as it were. This isn't offering us anything we don't already have thru IcarosDesktop, AEROS, or any of the other AROS variants, except a price tag. Yawn.....
I could of course be wrong, but perhaps it's rather "merged" than hosted? I have for example seen references to Anubis, which speaks in favor of this.
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I could of course be wrong, but perhaps it's rather "merged" than hosted? I have for example seen references to Anubis, which speaks in favor of this.
That's about as ridiculous as OS4 being "merged" with Linux, OSX or Windows. This is Linux hosting AROS, nothing more, nothing less....except that they want you to pay money for it.
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... This is Linux hosting AROS, nothing more, nothing less....except that they want you to pay money for it.
Wow, cynical much?
I'd say at the very least, the hosted version runs on top of an existing distro with X11 and Desktop Environment i.e. KDE, Gnome, etc.
And the 'integrated' version runs without X11, and a Linux native Desktop Environment.
So it is different. Which in turn will be more AROS and less Linux.
I'm certainly happy to support them with a purchase of the native version. I agree with the commercial forking path.
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Wow, cynical much?
I'd say at the very least, the hosted version runs on top of an existing distro with X11 and Desktop Environment i.e. KDE, Gnome, etc.
And the 'integrated' version runs without X11, and a Linux native Desktop Environment.
So it is different. Which in turn will be more AROS and less Linux.
I'm certainly happy to support them with a purchase of the native version. I agree with the commercial forking path.
You obviously don't know much about Linux or AROS to make such a comment. The "native version" you're referring to and sold by these clowns is actually AROS hosted on Linux and not a "native" version of AROS in any sense of the term. And Linux with or without the X Windows system is still Linux. So we're supposed pay these guys money for a version of Linux where they've removed X windows? Wow, paying more for less makes so much sense! Or paying for Linux at all for that matter
Whether or not they've stripped X from this Linux distro or not, is immaterial, it's still Linux, which I can get for free. Or here's an idea, just get one of the many other hosted versions of AROS, with or without X for FREE! Why the hell would I pay these clowns for something that's already free?! But as PT Barnum once said, there's a sucker born every minute. Your version of "different" is like saying Ubuntu is sooooo different from Lubuntu because Lubuntu uses LXDE and the other uses Unity for desktop management.....ugh......This is the same smoke-and-mirrors marketing used by the guy behind OpenOS4 and Anubis. So go ahead and send your money...or better yet, send your money to me and I will send you a ton of download links for the many versions of AROS AND Linux. What a bargain!
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All of this thread is just speculation till we see it working. I think phoenixconsole did amazing work with AEROS... Running linux, windows amiga 68k AND amiga ng applications all pretty integrated.
Perhaps this will be just as capable. We should wait and see before we all pass judgement.
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All of this thread is just speculation till we see it working. I think phoenixconsole did amazing work with AEROS... Running linux, windows amiga 68k AND amiga ng applications all pretty integrated.
Perhaps this will be just as capable. We should wait and see before we all pass judgement.
I'm not speculating about anything. I'm referring to the smoke and mirrors marketing spin that came directly off their web site. But they've taken it down now presumably because their smoke wasn't dense enough to obscure all the bullsh@t they're throwing around.
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I'm not speculating about anything. I'm referring to the smoke and mirrors marketing spin that came directly off their web site. But they've taken it down now presumably because their smoke wasn't dense enough to obscure all the bullsh@t they're throwing around.
guess I should reply to this... as you're commenting on placeholder text. It was exactly that. It was text Dammy wrote up for while the layout was being done.
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guess I should reply to this... as you're commenting on placeholder text. It was exactly that. It was text Dammy wrote up for while the layout was being done.
You guys have certainly made a name for yourselves in my book. I'll be sure not to buy anything you or Dammy are associated with in the future. To say Dammy's write-up is misleading would be kind.
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You guys have certainly made a name for yourselves in my book. I'll be sure not to buy anything you or Dammy are associated with in the future. To say Dammy's write-up is misleading would be kind.
Well since the page isn't even live. ;D
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No its not linux hosted AROS.
I personally was disinterested until I noticed who was working on it.
Between them theyve written the aros kernel, ported and enhanced it for x86-64, ppc, arm, bakported enhancements to x86, ported aros to the sam boards, written intel, ati, nvidia, vesa drivers, written aros 3d subsystem and drivers, and a shedload of other stuff that typing on a phone makes me lose enthusiasm for typing.
This is no fly-by-night/marketting operation, but real work done by developers who have helped shape aros into the usable system it is today.
As already mentioned the text on the website is nothing more than placeholder text. Given that the initial releases are soon Id expect it'll be replaced soon with something more accurate.
As a longtime AROS user and software dev. Im personally pretty excited about the potential ARIX brings for AROS, although Im also expecting it to invoke quite some misunderstanding and/or misinformation.
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That's about as ridiculous as OS4 being "merged" with Linux, OSX or Windows. This is Linux hosting AROS, nothing more, nothing less....except that they want you to pay money for it.
If that were true (and it isn't) what would be wrong with the AROS-Team selling their own work?
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You guys have certainly made a name for yourselves in my book. I'll be sure not to buy anything you or Dammy are associated with in the future. To say Dammy's write-up is misleading would be kind.
I'm impressed by your knowledge of this project, especially given how little information had been given.
You maybe correct in your assertions, but until they are confirmed, you would do well to state that everything you have said is entirely your speculation.
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@ Terminills
good to see you back on the forums :-)
I'll gladly buy Arix OS if it will work better than AspireOS on my netbook as I really love having an Amiga netbook on the go. I'm really enjoying AspireOS which is running natively on my netbook so I'm curious to see how ArixOS can make my Amiga netbook experience even better.
btw, any chance we can get an update on gutenprint soon ?
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guess I should reply to this... as you're commenting on placeholder text. It was exactly that. It was text Dammy wrote up for while the layout was being done.
Filler text would be something like Lorem ipsum. Just point that out to Dammy next time so he doesn't get carried away and spouts half truths on a site. ;)
I reserve judgment on this project until I can get my hand on it.
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I'm not speculating about anything. I'm referring to the smoke and mirrors marketing spin that came directly off their web site. But they've taken it down now presumably because their smoke wasn't dense enough to obscure all the bullsh@t they're throwing around.
u mad bro?
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Well this, according to my counter, was supposed to have been launched over 30 minutes ago now.
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I have no idea why people even pay for Windows at all when it is so easy to have it without spending a penny ever :)
They have enough money, do the digital Robin Hood and replace 'the poor' with 'me' haha
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@ferrellsl
some people who you are here calling clowns are still active aros core developers. why so aggressive? you can still have your aros hosted for free, whats your problem if someone proposes commercial fork? perhaps it will have some benefits. perhaps not. im still in favour of open source and have not a partiucular interest in it myself, without rnning around to spread hate in advance.
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The website is now live, but I STILL have no idea what Arix is. The website is virtually empty. I waited a month for nothing.
I feel duped.
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The website is now live, but I STILL have no idea what Arix is. The website is virtually empty. I waited a month for nothing.
I feel duped.
I have no idea why the site is still empty but I do know what ARIX is (I've used it for a few months) and it really is fantastic. It's not what ferrels thinks it is, not even close either.
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The website is now live, but I STILL have no idea what Arix is. The website is virtually empty. I waited a month for nothing.
I feel duped.
I am in no way defending the ARIX project, but to be fair to them, you have not been promised anything... You can't feel "duped", yet :)
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I will say what I said over on AW.Net
We will see what happens. I am interested to see what the outcome is. Yet this needlessly cryptic rubbish we have been seeing is annoying. It all reminds me of CUSA when they would make a announcement, which in turn would be an announcement for a announcement yet to come. Only for them to bugger something up and retract statements. If it had been me I would have scrapped the timer, done the website on a locally hosted machine (using whichever CMS) as to avoid people snooping, had screenshots ready showing off the OS doing stuff that average users would do then just parked the domain ready for the launch with a static image or something. I would have even gone as far as to not put a definite launch date just to be safe. If your wanting to put on a good show to get people interested there are better ways. Now its just comes off amateurish.
But it's time we ignored that, time Dammy and Terminills (also whoever else is involved in the team) actually gave us solid info about the project. I do want to see what the fuss is all about. I want a Amiga like system that will run comfortably on my new i5 system.
Preferably one that will dual boot nicely with windows 8.1 :P
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I have no idea why the site is still empty but I do know what ARIX is (I've used it for a few months) and it really is fantastic. It's not what ferrels thinks it is, not even close either.
Nice to hear someone using it!
I am really interested in this project.
Can you give us something to still our hunger for more info? :)
Dose Arix give us SMP, memmoryprotection for example?
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I will say what I said over on AW.Net
We will see what happens. I am interested to see what the outcome is. Yet this needlessly cryptic rubbish we have been seeing is annoying. It all reminds me of CUSA when they would make a announcement, which in turn would be an announcement for a announcement yet to come. Only for them to bugger something up and retract statements. If it had been me I would have scrapped the timer, done the website on a locally hosted machine (using whichever CMS) as to avoid people snooping, had screenshots ready showing off the OS doing stuff that average users would do then just parked the domain ready for the launch with a static image or something. I would have even gone as far as to not put a definite launch date just to be safe. If your wanting to put on a good show to get people interested there are better ways. Now its just comes off amateurish.
But it's time we ignored that, time Dammy and Terminills (also whoever else is involved in the team) actually gave us solid info about the project. I do want to see what the fuss is all about. I want a Amiga like system that will run comfortably on my new i5 system.
Preferably one that will dual boot nicely with windows 8.1 :P
All valid points, but if the intention was to get people taking about the project (good or bad), then it has if nothing else been an effective tool for that.
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you can still have your aros hosted for free, whats your problem if someone proposes commercial fork?
As long as it mostly or entirely maintains application compatibility, I'm all for it. Though I hope these guys will keep contributing to the open source AROS too.
Consider what commercial Linux distributions have done for Linux. E.g. RedHat has made a huge amount of money on Linux, but they've also invested a lot of money in Linux by hiring core developers and releasing a lot of code back to the community (not that I expect ARIX to turn into a billion dollar company like Redhat did...).
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Well if the product is done right, and released with the right tools, I don't see why there shouldn't be a commercial market for it.
If I can use a LAMP/WAMP variant, with a good editor, office suite, webbrowser, VCS, an easy to use filesharing system, then I would be satisfied to begin with.
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Nice to hear someone using it!
I am really interested in this project.
Can you give us something to still our hunger for more info? :)
Dose Arix give us SMP, memmoryprotection for example?
I could say because I'm not under NDA but I won't yet out of respect for the ARIX developers. I wouldn't want to steal their thunder. ;)
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I could say because I'm not under NDA but I won't yet out of respect for the ARIX developers. I wouldn't want to steal their thunder. ;)
I understand, I just have to wait then. :)
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I am in no way defending the ARIX project, but to be fair to them, you have not been promised anything... You can't feel "duped", yet :)
Really? Dammy posted this at AW on Oct. 18 ...
Questions should be answered in 30 days when the corporate web site launches and we get active with our FB/TW accounts. We only have one chance to do this properly and as such, we intend to do just that.
Based on that post I waited around for a month to find out what Arix was. The website went live on time, but contained NO answers.
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Really? Dammy posted this at AW on Oct. 18 ...
Based on that post I waited around for a month to find out what Arix was. The website went live on time, but contained NO answers.
Ah, so you're getting a dose of the smoke and mirrors that I talked about. You won't be provided any answers because it's already known that you won't like the answers. Arix will be just another Linux distro or Aros hosted on Linux. Otherwise they would have already told you the truth.
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Ah, so you're getting a dose of the smoke and mirrors that I talked about. You won't be provided any answers because it's already known that you won't like the answers. Arix will be just another Linux distro or Aros hosted on Linux. Otherwise they would have already told you the truth.
Just like MorphOS doesn't have 3D graphics drivers eh?
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Really? Dammy posted this at AW on Oct. 18 ...
Based on that post I waited around for a month to find out what Arix was. The website went live on time, but contained NO answers.
oh, some member of he project made a post on forums promissing the answers will be provided, and the are not the very moment he mentioned. even if they were late by a week how does that compare to hype and no information let alone cancelling projects and telling they are live by other companies involved in "amiga" scene?
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Having heard about this project awhile ago, I'd agree with Nik, give them time to present their case.
They have some nice features planned.
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All this talk of an Amiga userland on top of a Linux kernel got me reminiscing about the fabled Umilator. Such a shame that slimeballs in suits killed it before it was born.
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/emulators/umilator_feature.html
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A.R.I.X. = Another Relational Incognito Xtravagance ?
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You guys have certainly made a name for yourselves in my book. I'll be sure not to buy anything you or Dammy are associated with in the future. To say Dammy's write-up is misleading would be kind.
I say let them show us their fruit. It might be very productive of both of us.
As far as I am concern Dammy can be silent. He might not like it. He talks to much. Yes I saw a lot of what he did on here and Cusa forum site. It seemed to me. He is talking out of his butt.
Yes We can't trust Dammy or Terminalls. They need to realize they made mistakes. No offensive to them two. They need to look at what they done to this community.
At least I spent the time trying to see why the Amiga community was mad during that time. And final put all the truth and facts together. It took awhile. I wish I would never join that forum. At least I don't own any products from them. Barry said "Good or bad attention is good for business" In reality it better to live in peace and not start a fight with other groups. Produce products that people can afford.
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The only reason for person to own windows. Windows is consider gaming platform. That going to change soon. Wine not the drink. It getting better. Hopefully they get it where programs run either at the same speed as windows program or better.
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Well, Altman is pretty far off topic, but after talking to the guy I grew to like him.
OK, what he had planned definitely offended purists, but I wish I had a C64x.
That thing is bound to be a collectors item (if it isn't already).
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I could of course be wrong, but perhaps it's rather "merged" than hosted? I have for example seen references to Anubis, which speaks in favor of this.
That's about as ridiculous as [...]
Really? Well...
(http://i.imgur.com/YaywONa.jpg)
Judging from this picture, it seems kind of "merged" if you ask me...
:cool:
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No, the ARIX "OS" and I refuse to call it an OS, is still sitting on top of a Linux kernel in spite of the single ARIX scheduling arrow pointing directly at the hardware. This graphic is misleading at best. Arix will not be scheduling hardware resources directly without going thru the Linux kernel. You must have gotten Dammy to draw this. More smoke and mirrors....This graphic is more at home in a comic book.....
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No, the ARIX "OS" and I refuse to call it an OS, is still sitting on top of a Linux kernel in spite of the single ARIX scheduling arrow pointing directly at the hardware. This graphic is misleading at best. Arix will not be scheduling hardware resources directly without going thru the Linux kernel. You must have gotten Dammy to draw this. More smoke and mirrors....This graphic is more at home in a comic book.....
You are making yourself looking silly. Your comments remind me of a small child not wanting to eat something always saying "no I do not want to eat that"
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No, the ARIX "OS" and I refuse to call it an OS, is still sitting on top of a Linux kernel
Then you don't seem to understand what an OS *is*.
Linux is a Kernel that the OS is built upon, what people refer to as Linux as actually "GNU Linux" and that's the OS.
Or take the fact that you can actually compile Linux with a different kernel than the Linux Kernel, or BSD using Linux or Mach or one of several others.
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@OlafS3
OK, then explain how Arix is supposed schedule and create a resource lock on hardware independent of the Linux kernel? And vice versa.....Explain what happens when Arix and the Linux kernel lock the same resource at teh same time....I'll tell you what happens, you get a disaster, so I find this graphic to be misleading at best, and dishonest at worst.
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OK, then explain how Arix is supposed schedule and create a resource lock on hardware independent of the Linux kernel? And vice versa.....Explain what happens when Arix and the Linux kernel lock the same resource at teh same time....I'll tell you what happens, you get a disaster, so I find this graphic to be misleading at best, and dishonest at worst.
you are part of the dev-team? When not where do you know? Do you think all others have no clue what they do?
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@AJCopland
You're not qualified to tell me what I understand or don't understand as you don't even know me. I actually have a masters degree in computer science from the Univ. of Maryland and a bachelors in the same field from the Univ. of Tampa and I see the bullsh@t that Dammy and terminills have been slinging and it's very misleading and I see lesser informed people here just eat it up like ice cream.
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@AJCopland
You're not qualified to tell me what I understand or don't understand as you don't even know me. I actually have a masters degree in computer science from the Univ. of Maryland and a bachelors in the same field from the Univ. of Tampa and I see the bullsh@t that Dammy and terminills have been slinging and it's very misleading and I see lesser informed people here just eat it up like ice cream.
You seem really to think you are right. I like ice cream btw. You are not very credible because you bashed on it from first minute and then continued to do so. When there are all informations you can still critisize but not from first minute.
you claim that it is a linux app looking like AROS running on it. So when we look at it there is Poseidon, AHI and other amiga-components, on the screenshot there is the DOpus Magellan icon. All are Linux apps? Explain that with or without master degree...
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@AJCopland
You're not qualified to tell me what I understand or don't understand as you don't even know me. I actually have a masters degree in computer science from the Univ. of Maryland and a bachelors in the same field from the Univ. of Tampa and I see the bullsh@t that Dammy and terminills have been slinging and it's very misleading and I see lesser informed people here just eat it up like ice cream.
then try better, because currently you only struck me as an unemployed attacking whoever went in your presumably own field. sure, you can have some "real" argument. (i guess) so why are oyu not using that?
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You seem really to think you are right.
on the contrary!
lets say i have some knowledge of people rather then computers. he completely fiils in what id consider a sole stone blocking the way (because he will). funny enough i have not heard reasonable people from othe "amiga camps" like os4 or mos. who are waiting till there is something to spoil. they are waiting till there is something to contribute towards. fu keyboard fighters.
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@ferrellsl
I may not know much about ARIX yet (and neither do you or anyone else outside "the loop"), but one thing I know for certain is that you have made a complete fool out of yourself in this thread, acting like a clown from the very beginning, making wild claims and accusations when no info about it was known, and when real info is slowly starting to be released and when people with real life knowledge of the thing corrects you, you don't back down and stand corrected, no, you persist your claims like only a fool would.
:rant:
Why don't you just sit back and wait?
:confused:
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@OlafS3
OK, then explain how Arix is supposed schedule and create a resource lock on hardware independent of the Linux kernel? And vice versa.....Explain what happens when Arix and the Linux kernel lock the same resource at teh same time....I'll tell you what happens, you get a disaster, so I find this graphic to be misleading at best, and dishonest at worst.
Rightly or wrong, the graphic clearly suggests that the Linux kernel doesn't touch the resources that the Arix kernel controls directly and that the Arix kernel sends instructions to the Linux kernel and is it's boss.
I'm not passing any kind of opinion here on Arix itself but only on what the graphic tells me, the job of the graphic is to portray information with visual language.
It will be interesting to see how accurate the graphic designer has been in portraying the reality of the matter. Of course, he can only be as accurate as his brief.
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@AJCopland
You're not qualified to tell me what I understand or don't understand as you don't even know me. I actually have a masters degree in computer science from the Univ. of Maryland and a bachelors in the same field from the Univ. of Tampa and I see the bullsh@t that Dammy and terminills have been slinging and it's very misleading and I see lesser informed people here just eat it up like ice cream.
On the subject of "bullsh@t", upon the release of v3.3 you claimed MorphOS lacks hardware 3D support.
You've also been repeatedly told by people who know better than you that your misconceptions about ARIX are also "bullsh@t", yet you continue to argue that black is white.
Not exactly the scientific method is it?
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I've never claimed that MorphOS lacked 3D support! I even had a PegII and I liked it! I have claimed that it lacked the 3D functionality that was available on my PC especially in light of the fact that MOS is hobbled with decades old Radeon cards, just like OS4!
As for the bullsh@being slung here, I think the above diagram was lifted from the paper published at the link below and modified for the sake of "convenience", by dammy and terminills, to add more smoke and mirrors to their argument that they've somehow merged an Aros kernel with a Linux kernel. So to be specific, here's the link which clearly shows that this Arix/Linux merged kernel is bullsh@t!
http://tornasol.datsi.fi.upm.es/ciclope-old/doc/rtos/cache/doc/rtlpro.pdf
And as for scientific methods, a powerpoint graphic without any from of documentation and a lame countdown website announcing something new and groundbreaking doesn't constitute "scientific" in any way shape or form. This is typical grandstanding by Dammy. This is Anubis Part Deux! And, BTW, the paper above has verifiable and reputable sources...pretty scientific.
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I think the above diagram was lifted from the paper published at the link below and modified
http://tornasol.datsi.fi.upm.es/ciclope-old/doc/rtos/cache/doc/rtlpro.pdf
You may well be correct as to the origin of the diagram and thanks for the link, I will read with interest and an open mind.
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I've never claimed that MorphOS lacked 3D support! I even had a PegII and I liked it! I have claimed that it lacked the 3D functionality that was available on my PC especially in light of the fact that MOS is hobbled with decades old Radeon cards, just like OS4!
As for the bullsh@being slung here, I think the above diagram was lifted from the paper published at the link below and modified for the sake of "convenience", by dammy and terminills, to add more smoke and mirrors to their argument that they've somehow merged an Aros kernel with a Linux kernel. So to be specific, here's the link which clearly shows that this Arix/Linux merged kernel is bullsh@t!
http://tornasol.datsi.fi.upm.es/ciclope-old/doc/rtos/cache/doc/rtlpro.pdf
And as for scientific methods, a powerpoint graphic without any from of documentation and a lame countdown website announcing something new and groundbreaking doesn't constitute "scientific" in any way shape or form. This is typical grandstanding by Dammy. This is Anubis Part Deux! And, BTW, the paper above has verifiable and reputable sources...pretty scientific.
I'll say it one last time, "I have used ARIX over the last few months and it is not what you believe it to be."
Don't just take my word for it, actually reply to Dr Schulz over at aw.net and ask him whatever you want.
Forget Dammy, he isn't one of the developers.
Hint: Think Amithlon/Umilator.
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I've never claimed that MorphOS lacked 3D support! I even had a PegII and I liked it! I have claimed that it lacked the 3D functionality that was available on my PC especially in light of the fact that MOS is hobbled with decades old Radeon cards, just like OS4!
As for the bullsh@being slung here, I think the above diagram was lifted from the paper published at the link below and modified for the sake of "convenience", by dammy and terminills, to add more smoke and mirrors to their argument that they've somehow merged an Aros kernel with a Linux kernel. So to be specific, here's the link which clearly shows that this Arix/Linux merged kernel is bullsh@t!
http://tornasol.datsi.fi.upm.es/ciclope-old/doc/rtos/cache/doc/rtlpro.pdf
That's pretty weak. You didn't spend 30 seconds on google to find something to trot out did you? The ARIX breakdown graphic looks more stylistically similar to some of the NTOS kernel high level hierarchy diagrams, which isn't saying much because everybody uses the same style to depict this stuff. You've never seen this kind of stuff before, have you? I don't believe your educational credentials for one second.
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@koaftder
I really don't care if you believe my credentials or not. Nor do I care if you believe anything I've said. But I have given you some real sources. I have NOT set up a grandstanding countdown web-site, made unsubstantiated claims about a dual kernel OS or a "merged" kernel OS, nor posted bogus diagrams having no attributable sources. Dammy has a history of failed claims and "projects", Anubis being one of note. Believe in Dammy and Arix as much as you like.
As for dual kernel operating systems, Arix would be the first one in commercial existence They've been created in labs in the past but have never been successful due to inherent design problems and flaws. So now you'd ask me to believe that Dammy and terminills are the first to deliver a successful dual kernel OS to the world? That these two have somehow overcome all the inherent issues with dual kernel operating systems that teams of programmers around the word haven't been able to overcome? Sorry, but that's not going to happen based on what they've shown to date nor based on Dammy's previous track record.
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(http://i.imgur.com/YaywONa.jpg)
"That's a pretty accurate diagram of a typical Amithlon system."
/Bernd Meyer
http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/243950.shtml (http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/243950.shtml)
:cool:
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@nicholas
I'm willing to accept facts about Arix, but no one is willing to provide any or maybe it's that they're not able to present any facts (due to NDAs, or lack of ability, etc, etc.). I'm the world's ultimate skeptic, especially in light of claims made by Dammy in the past. I actually hope that Arix is what some people are claiming it to be, but I want some proof! A graphic without sources might be ok for some people here, but it will not be sufficient with me nor in a scholarly paper. I will certainly take your advice and forget Dammy! LOL! At least I will try!
I've used Amithlon in the past and it was the bomb! (That's American vernacular for really cool!) Stopped using it because the underlying linux kernel wasn't kept up-to-date with the latest hardware....i.e. 1MB RAM limits, dual core problems, etc...
If it's an Amithlon-like system with Aros binary compatibility, I welcome it!
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@koaftder
I really don't care if you believe my credentials or not. Nor do I care if you believe anything I've said. But I have given you some real sources. I have NOT set up a grandstanding countdown web-site, made unsubstantiated claims about a dual kernel OS or a "merged" kernel OS, nor posted bogus diagrams having no attributable sources. Dammy has a history of failed claims and "projects", Anubis being one of note. Believe in Dammy and Arix as much as you like.
As for dual kernel operating systems, Arix would be the first one in commercial existence They've been created in labs in the past but have never been successful due to inherent design problems and flaws. So now you'd ask me to believe that Dammy and terminills are the first to deliver a successful dual kernel OS to the world? That these two have somehow overcome all the inherent issues with dual kernel operating systems that teams of programmers around the word haven't been able to overcome? Sorry, but that's not going to happen based on what they've shown to date nor based on Dammy's previous track record.
Firstly you are conveniently forgetting the "dual kernel" Amithlon. Secondly Dammy and Terminills haven't created ARIX, (some) of the AROS team have created it, all of them "big name" low level system programmers.
Have you responded to Dr Schulz yet?
ps Your claims regarding MorphOS 3.3 were that it "lacks a useful or STABLE browser" and has an "unacceptable lack of 3D support".
Neither is true.
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@ferrellsl
I may not know much about ARIX yet (and neither do you or anyone else outside "the loop"), but one thing I know for certain is that you have made a complete fool out of yourself in this thread, acting like a clown from the very beginning, making wild claims and accusations when no info about it was known, and when real info is slowly starting to be released and when people with real life knowledge of the thing corrects you, you don't back down and stand corrected, no, you persist your claims like only a fool would.
:rant:
Why don't you just sit back and wait?
:confused:
Well, actually I HAVE sat back and waited, only to be shown nothing by the folks behind that ridiculous countdown timer. How much longer do you suggest we all wait? And at least I've presented an argument while you insist on calling me names. That's very weak in light of the fact that we were promised some answers when the countdown ended. Show me some facts......
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You seem really to think you are right. I like ice cream btw. You are not very credible because you bashed on it from first minute and then continued to do so. When there are all informations you can still critisize but not from first minute.
you claim that it is a linux app looking like AROS running on it. So when we look at it there is Poseidon, AHI and other amiga-components, on the screenshot there is the DOpus Magellan icon. All are Linux apps? Explain that with or without master degree...
The ones lacking credibility are Dammy and terminills and I'm sorry if that offends you. They promised to show us something new and groundbreaking after enduring a lengthy countdown timer. I think we deserve some answers to our questions but so far all we get is silence. And based on Dammy's past performance I have a right to be skeptical and critical of his claims. Again, sorry if that offends you and others, but it's my right to be skeptical here....what better place to be skeptical than at Amiga.org after all the previous scams and failures of the past.
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Firstly you are conveniently forgetting the "dual kernel" Amithlon. Secondly Dammy and Terminills haven't created ARIX, (some) of the AROS team have created it, all of them "big name" low level system programmers.
Have you responded to Dr Schulz yet?
ps Your claims regarding MorphOS 3.3 were that it "lacks a useful or STABLE browser" and has an "unacceptable lack of 3D support".
Neither is true.
I've stated there have been dual kernel operating systems in the past, created mostly in labs, but for good reasons they've failed in the real world, that includes Amithlon, maybe not for the same reasons that the others failed, but alas, no one can conclude that Amithlon was/is a success. So I haven't conveniently left Amithlon off the list. My list is all inclusive when it comes to dual kernel operating systems.
Yes, and that was based on my experience with MOS 3.0 several years ago, and my claims about browser stability AND usefulness in those days still stand as do my comments about the level of 3D support which was, if my memory serves me correctly, consisted of a subset of OpenGL 1.2/1.3. Not exactly modern. And the 3D support in MOS and OS4 is still woefully lacking today compared to modern systems. Nothing has changed.
I've looked for Dr. Schulz on AW but I can't find him. What's his screen name? I WOULD like to see some documentation or maybe he would be kind enough to provide some on both AW and Amiga.org
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I've stated there have been dual kernel operating systems in the past, created mostly in labs, but for good reasons they've failed in the real world, that includes Amithlon, maybe not for the same reasons that the others failed, but alas, no one can conclude that Amithlon was/is a success. So I haven't conveniently left Amithlon off the list. My list is all inclusive when it comes to dual kernel operating systems.
Yes, and that was based on my experience with MOS 3.0 several years ago, and my claims about browser stability in those days still stand as do my comments about the level of 3D support which was, if my memory serves me correctly, consisted of a subset of OpenGL 1.2/1.3. Not exactly modern. And the 3D support in MOS and OS4 is still woefully lacking today compared to modern systems. Nothing has changed.
I've looked for Dr. Schulz on AW but I can't find him. What's his screen name? I WOULD like to see some documentation or maybe he would be kind enough to provide some on both AW and Amiga.org
You said ARIX would be the "first one in commercial existence", there have been many Amithlon is just one.
Dr Michal Schulz is michalsc over there, he's replied to you in the ARIX Foundation thread.
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You said ARIX would be the "first one in commercial existence", there have been many Amithlon is just one.
Dr Michal Schulz is michalsc over there, he's replied to you in the ARIX Foundation thread.
Ah, you got me there! Arix would be the second one developed for commercial gain that I'm aware of. All the others that I'm aware of were open source *nix's or variants and didn't tie into Amigas.
O, thanks for pointing out who michalsc is. I didn't realize that. I've admired his work on Aros for ARM (and x86). I didn't realize he was the brains behind Arix. For some strange reason one might assume that Dammy or terminills was the driving force behind Arix.
---------------------
Checked out the Arix thread on AWorld and Dr. Schulz is providing a wealth of info. I had been there earlier today but hadn't checked back until you mentioned it. Great stuff! And I DO admit that I was wrong about Arix, but can you blame me in spite of all the BS we've come to know and love at Amiga.org?
I recommend that other loud-mouthed skeptics such as myself head over to AWorld and check out the Arix thread there if you're looking for technical info.
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ps Your claims regarding MorphOS 3.3 were that it "lacks a useful or STABLE browser" and has an "unacceptable lack of 3D support".
Neither is true.
In all fairness both the words "useful" and "unacceptable" denote opinion and as opinion are neither true nor false but rather more a point of view.
Personally I have no issues with MOS but then I don't have much experience with it either.
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Well, actually I HAVE sat back and waited, only to be shown nothing by the folks behind that ridiculous countdown timer. How much longer do you suggest we all wait? And at least I've presented an argument while you insist on calling me names. That's very weak in light of the fact that we were promised some answers when the countdown ended. Show me some facts......
Well, the "counter incident" indeed seems to have upset you (and others, both here and elsewhere). But really, nothing has been sold, nothing was promised (except *info* at that point in time, which has now slided to "Throughout the week" (and will likely slide even more if you ask me)).
Save the critique to when there is something to criticize, don't go making things up to fit any agendas of yours, or your "beef with dammy" or whatever. Indeed there isn't much info released, despite the "countdown on the webpage". But IMHO, this doesn't (at this time at least) warrant comments like:
- "lame attempt to scam uninformed Amigans out of some cash"
- "This is Linux hosting AROS, nothing more, nothing less....except that they want you to pay money for it."
- "Whether or not they've stripped X from this Linux distro or not, is immaterial, it's still Linux, which I can get for free."
- "This is the same smoke-and-mirrors marketing used by the guy behind OpenOS4 and Anubis."
- "Arix will be just another Linux distro or Aros hosted on Linux."
Etc, etc.
I'm not saying you are wrong, because I don't know. But on the other hand, you can't say you are right because you don't know either! That's my point! And the fact is that several people (who claims to *actually know*) has told you repeatedly that in fact *you are wrong*!
These are Open Source developers in the AROS community. They aren't used to deadlines (maybe professionally, but not in their spare time "Amiga" hobby at least), or any kind of management for that matter (again, in their "Amiga" hobby). And nobody has been sold anything, not even promised anything (except that info would be made available when the web countdown reached zero, but that's all).
So maybe cut them some slack? Sharpen that broad-axe of yours in the meantime, but don't go waiving it around in the AROS crowd at this time, OK?
;)
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@nicholas
I'm with you Brother! I like what I'm seeing. Sorry to have been so "vocal", but like the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease! I will now desist!
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WOW!
For a community that usually exhibits more than its share of patience, this is surprisingly fractious.
I understand Nik's reluctance to revel more about this, and am glad I only know a little as i would not have his patience.
But, at least understand this, we have someone (who I personally trust) telling us it exists and that he's used it for awhile.
Isn't that enough to temper the premature negative BS?
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WOW!
For a community that usually exhibits more than its share of patience, this is surprisingly fractious.
I understand Nik's reluctance to revel more about this, and am glad I only know a little as i would not have his patience.
But, at least understand this, we have someone (who I personally trust) telling us it exists and that he's used it for awhile.
Isn't that enough to temper the premature negative BS?
You missed my reply #75 on the previous page! http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66288&page=5
And again, I recommend that other loud-mouthed skeptics such as myself head over to AWorld and check out the Arix thread there if you're looking for technical info.
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I know more than most do Jim, but I certainly don't speak for ARIX.
I just wanted to correct any misinformation.
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Dr Schulz has written a few more technical details here:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38282&forum=2&start=320&viewmode=flat&order=0#722900
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Dr Schulz has written a few more technical details here:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38282&forum=2&start=320&viewmode=flat&order=0#722900
He has time to write all that but there's nothing on the site after that bizarre countdown thing? Do the folks behind the website have anything to do with the guys doing the development work?
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He has time to write all that but there's nothing on the site after that bizarre countdown thing? Do the folks behind the website have anything to do with the guys doing the development work?
Makes one wonder doesn't it?! I'm starting to think they're unrelated. ;-)
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I like the pretty picture :
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=582736921781510&set=a.582736911781511.1073741828.414578091930728&type=1&theater
All you haters and flamers back off.
AROS is a beautiful thing. Some ideas of ANNUBIS I thought were great...
The stuff phoenixconsole did with aros and linux as "aeros" were really awesome.
Give them a chance to get established before you so quickly pass judgement... If its good, I'll be the first to support them.
AROS is great but I can't use it for everyday os because of lack of modern browsing/lack of apps. Something like AEROS or this could fix that for me and many other amigans.
Thats all I want, I want to come "home" completely. Not to have an aros box next to my main rig thats cool to play around with but not ready yet.
AROS is wonderful but it needs some major changes to be an everyday OS...
THIS COULD BE IT!
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The guy from Philly has a good point, utility.
I already know some of you don't buy that argument, but it is why I'm using the OS I am.
And AROS has always suffered from this "its not finished yet!" feeling.
A Linux kernel makes perfect sense to me.
After all, Linux has had SMP support for some time.
What does that suggest?
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After all, Linux has had SMP support for some time.
What does that suggest?
That ARIX isn't a SMP design?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38282&forum=2&start=300&viewmode=flat&order=0#722874
;)
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that depends on the definition of "SMP design". It already uses more than one core on system level and they are obviously evaluating ways to use it in other cases. SMP for applications is still in testing/development ("silly SMP") and I think Jason mentioned that it would need 6 months to implement. But it will come do not worry :-)
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Part of a feeling of being incomplete in my opinion is due to the fact that almost daily theres new work available, not always heavily tested, or complete.
OS4 and MOS both differ in that what people end up with is akin to a light distro, and one that is worked on by core developers, meaning that releases content is more heavily controlled, and aimed towards a much more restricted hardware base.
Find or buy hardware that is properly supported, and use a distro rather than a nightly and AROS behaves equally well.
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Well I am looking forward to hearing more, it does sound really promising.
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That ARIX isn't a SMP design?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38282&forum=2&start=300&viewmode=flat&order=0#722874
;)
Good quote!
And since its been mentioned I don't have to keep quiet on that one.
"rather similar to AMP"
So folk, our first support for multiple cores.
And if you expect more than ASMP out of Amiga OS 4.2 you might be too optimistic.
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Good quote!
And since its been mentioned I don't have to keep quiet on that one.
"rather similar to AMP"
So folk, our first support for multiple cores.
And if you expect more than ASMP out of Amiga OS 4.2 you might be too optimistic.
Not strictly true Jim, the PowerUP boards could be argued to be the first ASMP implementation. ;)
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that depends on the definition of "SMP design".
The definition of SMP is actually a quite clear. ;)
It already uses more than one core on system level and they are obviously evaluating ways to use it in other cases.
AMP/ASMP is not SMP though...
SMP for applications is still in testing/development ("silly SMP") and I think Jason mentioned that it would need 6 months to implement. But it will come do not worry :-)
"Silly-SMP" is just what the name suggest: Silly! It's may be a fun/interesting test or experiment, but even if it will be finished I doubt it will ever be used for real, it simply makes no sense. SMP breaks Amiga, it simply can not exist in an Amiga context without breaking the compatibility. And if you will break the compatibility you would be much better off implementing a *proper* SMP instead. So putting effort into this is indeed silly. ;)
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So folk, our first support for multiple cores.
PowerUP was "our" first support for multiple cores (more than one and a half decade ago)! ;)
And if you expect more than ASMP out of Amiga OS 4.2 you might be too optimistic.
Actually, I think you might be too optimistic if you expect OS 4.2 at all (;)), but given what has been said about "Kernel X" or whatever they call it, it actually aims for SMP.
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Perhaps they are better than the Aros devs, who knows...
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Perhaps they are better than the Aros devs, who knows...
Stop it you're killing me! :roflmao:
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PowerUP was "our" first support for multiple cores (more than one and a half decade ago)! ;)
Not really, those boards don't work that well when using both processor concurrently.
And if we really want to go out there, then all systems with intelligent support chips are multi-processor system.
So does that make an Atari 8biy system with an Antic chip multi-processor?
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@OlafS3
Perhaps they are better than the Aros devs, who knows...
Who knows, but it doesn't matter; anyone with enough low-level knowledge to make an Operating System from scratch in the first place, can probably create a proper SMP scheduler with the required API to make a proper, multithreaded SMP OS. Much research has been done in this area and much theory and many models about this exist, so evaluate them, choose one, and implement it to the best of your ability. But that was obviously not my point. I never commented on neither the AROS nor the OS4 developers ability to create a SMP OS.
The point is that you could have one of two ambitions/objectives with your "Amiga" OS:
- Retain the Amiga compatibility (SMP *impossible*, 31-bit memory space, etc)
- Break the Amiga compatibility (SMP possible, 64-bit, along with a lot of other stuff)
ARIX seems to be about the first option (quotes from the AW.net thread):
- "It's not an SMP design, rather similar to AMP"
- "the API is AROS [Read: Amiga]. You can in principle run all AROS software on ARIX"
- "Yes, without recompiling"
[/I]
Hyperion's "X Kernel" on the other hand is definitely Option 2, thus "inverting" the three bullet points above; "It's a SMP design, the API won't be (legacy)Amiga, you can't run all OS4/Amiga software on 'X Kernel', not without recompiling, including 'fixing' any legacy dependencies and modifying to become as multithreaded/parallel as possible". (BTW, the OS4 "team lead", ssolie, has said he wants to merge the "Exec SG" with "X Kernel" down the line, which of course was a rather amusing thing to say by someone in his position! :lol:)
Your comment...
"SMP for applications is still in testing/development ("silly SMP") and I think Jason mentioned that it would need 6 months to implement. But it will come do not worry :-)"
...would mean a change in ambition/objective in ARIX from option 1 to option 2. There is no option "1.5", no sliding scale. Legacy compatibility will be lost, and programs will have to be recompiled (etc). It's just that "Silly-SMP" never had the ambition of being the very best (or even a good one at all for that matter) SMP implementation; it's entire point seems to have been an experiment to prove those wrong who claimed that "SMP can't be done in Exec", and it does contains a lot of trade-offs to make it possible; "utilizing the extra cores to *some* degree, is better than nothing, even if being far from optimal or what's actually possible in other models". It may indeed prove those people wrong (we'll see if it gets that far), but "Silly-SMP" does *not* however prove those wrong who claims that "SMP can't be done in an Amiga legacy compatible environment" (and it can't!), so if the ARIX people would indeed change their mind, and opt for Option 2 instead later on, it would be quite silly to use "Silly-SMP" instead of a better, established and tried model.
That was my point.
:)
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...would mean a change in ambition/objective in ARIX from option 1 to option 2. There is no option "1.5", no sliding scale. Legacy compatibility will be lost, and programs will have to be recompiled (etc). It's just that "Silly-SMP" never had the ambition of being the very best (or even a good one at all for that matter) SMP implementation; it's entire point seems to have been an experiment to prove those wrong who claimed that "SMP can't be done in Exec", and it does contains a lot of trade-offs to make it possible; "utilizing the extra cores to *some* degree, is better than nothing, even if being far from optimal or what's actually possible in other models". It may indeed prove those people wrong (we'll see if it gets that far), but "Silly-SMP" does *not* however prove those wrong who claims that "SMP can't be done in an Amiga legacy compatible environment" (and it can't!), so if the ARIX people would indeed change their mind, and opt for Option 2 instead later on, it would be quite silly to use "Silly-SMP" instead of a better, established and tried model.
I seel "Silly-SMP" as an exercise in 1) seeing how far you can get *while* retaining compatibility, and 2) exposing what code actually needs to be fixed.
A lot of the "SMP is impossible" whining in these discussions is based on a "worst case" scenario where Amiga applications runs rampant all over memory and uses every dirty trick in the book all the time *and can't be fixed*.
But here's the thing:
We have a very limited software catalogue. Even on classic. *Most* of those applications are going to interact with the OS in ways that breaks simple approaches to SMP in very limited ways, that can either be worked around, or patched.
Some are going to be very problematic, and you then have a few alternatives: Fix them, especially if you have the source; add hacks to work around them (up to and including "blacklisting" these applications and cause the OS to do nasty hacks when they run, up to and including sandboxing them in some way or another); or accept that they never will work outside of emulation or with SMP turned off.
But the thing is: We don't really *know*. We do know that cache coherency will be an issue for anything that tries to meddle with system structures. We do know that frequent Forbid()/Permit() would be a problem, especially if we're forced to forbid across all cores and flush caches. But we don't have accurate measures of how much software is affected how badly.
It is possible the best approach is to sandbox all old apps in an emulator and let them continue running on a single CPU, and bridge various things to the host OS. Or it is possible the problem is limited enough to work around and/or patch the offending applications for a new OS version.
The only way of really finding that out is to experiment.
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The only way of really finding that out is to experiment.
Which is what AROS and silly SMP is all about... The nature of the projects allows all option to be tried and then the optimal (I.E. Least worst) option chosen.
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Which is what AROS and silly SMP is all about... The nature of the projects allows all option to be tried and then the optimal (I.E. Least worst) option chosen.
Exactly. I was very happy to see that experimentation finally start - I've long been firmly of the opinion that it's not going to be nearly as bad as some think, exactly because our software base is as small as it is, and the base of software that people actually expect to be able to use on the next-gen systems on modern hardware outside of emulation sandboxes like UAE is much smaller still. But these experiments finally gives us a chance to find out who is right :D
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I seel "Silly-SMP" as an exercise in 1) seeing how far you can get *while* retaining compatibility
No exercise needed to see that it won't be neither binary compatible (had it been running on AROS 68k on non-existent dual CPU 68k HW), and it won't be source code compatible to anything and everything written for AmigaOS3.x either. You would be required to not only recompile the applications, but also adapt the sources (more or less, depending on the app in question).
Have a look at this post (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=745766&postcount=32) in particular, and threads like this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65748) and this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65753) in general, and you will see that:
1) Full Amiga legacy compatibility is *impossible* to begin with
2) and *on top of that* there are lots of hurdles to overcome and performance penalties to pay, if you *persist* in going this way despite the fact that you have already broken compatibility and a rebuild of the SW base will be required anyway (hence an opportunity to introduce a SMP model that is more *real world tried* and less "silly").
2) exposing what code actually needs to be fixed.
What you can "fix" is to overcome as many of the hurdles as possible and trying to make performance as good as possible. This is what real life testing/developing of this concept can provide. But per concept (visible in the first link above), no "code fixes" can make this fully Amiga compatible.
A lot of the "SMP is impossible" whining in these discussions
Oh please, this is not "whining". Amiga can't be SMP, per design, per concept.
is based on a "worst case" scenario where Amiga applications runs rampant all over memory and uses every dirty trick in the book all the time *and can't be fixed*.
But here's the thing:
We have a very limited software catalogue. Even on classic. *Most* of those applications are going to interact with the OS in ways that breaks simple approaches to SMP in very limited ways, that can either be worked around, or patched.
Some are going to be very problematic, and you then have a few alternatives: Fix them, especially if you have the source; add hacks to work around them (up to and including "blacklisting" these applications and cause the OS to do nasty hacks when they run, up to and including sandboxing them in some way or another); or accept that they never will work outside of emulation or with SMP turned off.
But the thing is: We don't really *know*. We do know that cache coherency will be an issue for anything that tries to meddle with system structures. We do know that frequent Forbid()/Permit() would be a problem, especially if we're forced to forbid across all cores and flush caches. But we don't have accurate measures of how much software is affected how badly.
No, no, no, either it's 100% compatible, or it's NOT! There is *nothing* in between! It's purely digital, either 1 or 0, it's either fully black or fully white. Purposely building an OS that sits in the grey scale between black and white will mean that its applications will be running in a mine field; Some may perhaps run, some longer than others, but there are no guarantees whatsoever. This is simply not serious, it would be a joke, and any OS developer who thinks that "less than 100% compatibility/stability" is OK and actually something to *aim for*, shouldn't be taken seriously as well!
That doesn't mean that "Silly-SMP" isn't a cool thing or an interesting experiment. Which is its purpose AFAIK - being a research experiment. But it will never be a realistic or good way of bringing SMP to AROS/ARIX.
It is possible the best approach is to sandbox all old apps in an emulator and let them continue running on a single CPU, and bridge various things to the host OS.
It will be the *only* way to run legacy Amiga/AROS apps in a new, SMP enabled system. Like AROS already does with UAE. Old Amiga 68k binaries can run there, and existing/old AROS/Amiga sources can be compiled for it unchanged. The same will be for Hyperion's "X Kernel", or when MorphOS goes "4.0". When the "NG OS's" goes "NG 2" and introduces things like SMP, 64-bit, etc, this is simply the way it has to be.
But this is slightly off topic in this thread anyway, since apparently, ARIX will not be SMP!
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But this is slightly off topic in this thread anyway, since apparently, ARIX will not be SMP!
ARIX isn't SMP at a user level, that's is not to say it can't be in future.
SMP certainly isn't impossible in the AmigaOS design, the problem is that is SMP will almost certainly be slower than just using a single processor due to the original design decisions :)
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ARIX isn't SMP at a user level, that's is not to say it can't be in future.
And just like it will be for MorphOS and OS4 if/when they make this "NG 2" transition, it will mark a clear line between "before" and "after". It's nothing you sneak in in an afternoon and nobody will notice. The existing SW base will either have to be adapted and rebuilt for the "NG 2" with SMP, 64-bit, etc, or run in a sandbox (like UAE for example).
Maybe this isn't as dramatic for AROS/ARIX as it will be for OS4 and MorphOS, since the latter two have always had a fundamental focus on Amiga compatibility, not only source level compatibility, but also binary compatibility (which has been a central part). AROS on the other hand has always had a different view on compatibility issues (since it has mainly lived on other archs than 68k and never had a native 68k binary translator), where Amiga apps have always had to be either recompiled, or run in an emulator.
SMP certainly isn't impossible in the AmigaOS design
It certainly IS impossible if compatibility is a requirement.
If not, then sure...
:)
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I'll admit, I'm not a low level OS designer, but I recall the times when Linux was first adding SMP support, and a lot of the discussions on that.
But what truly is standing in the way of AmigaOS to using SMP? The OS level scheduler should be able to determine if an application is multi-threaded and should use the cpus concurrently, or if it's just a single core application and run it that way.
I recall even Quake (2?) had initial multi-core support that you could enable with a configuration change, but it wasn't really optimized and indeed ran slower.
A good example under Linux is where older versions of Asterisks are single threaded (not too sure if they changed that in newer releases) and will only ever utilize one core. But software like apache will certainly take advantage of a multicore system.
I always thought it'd be kind of cool to be able to right-click an icon and select "use all cores" :D You could even do some mad multitasking if you had a dual-core Amiga and just had the OS use one CPU and all applications use the second.
But as I said, I don't know what the technical barriers of AmigaOS and SMP there are, and why it is impossible. I wouldn't even think that most applications would realize there were a second core to use, and it'd just work on the one.
Now if it's due to the memory protection bits, then I could see multi-core processors being an issue, but a dual-processor setup could work, with different memory blocks available.
slaapliedje
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I recall the smp debates on linux also...
Some people may be right in that 68k and NG1 apps must be sandboxed going forward...
I don't really know, but I agree that the software base for NG1 apps is not so huge... so recompile them with a few changes to work, or sandbox them if necessary. 68k apps already run in emulator on aros so why not progress to NG2?
8 core machines are becoming more common. 12 and 16 core machines will be common soon enough. We can all sit with our heads in the sand and ignore all that power, or we can learn to use it...
I'd go for using it...
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Have a look at this post (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=745766&postcount=32) in particular, and threads like this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65748) and this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65753) in general, and you will see that:
1) Full Amiga legacy compatibility is *impossible* to begin with
2) and *on top of that* there are lots of hurdles to overcome and performance penalties to pay, if you *persist* in going this way despite the fact that you have already broken compatibility and a rebuild of the SW base will be required anyway (hence an opportunity to introduce a SMP model that is more *real world tried* and less "silly").
I *have* followed Jason's work, and you are massively overdramatising this.
It is fully possible to make AmigaOS SMP with *no* source changes. This is not the problem. The problem is making AmigaOS SMP in a way that scales efficiently to many cores. The "trivial" way of making AmigaOS fully SMP is to memory protect all shared structures, make Forbid() etc. work across all cores, and brutally enforce cache coherency - do that and you can create a system that is *provably* equivalent to a multi-tasking single-CPU system, in that you can in fact guarantee no *observable* differences to processes.
(In fact, you can further relax the above by using well researched approaches from database theory: By using the MMU to trigger page faults and pause processes that try to touch the same pages as the process that called Forbid(), you can create the *effect* of a system wide Forbid() while allowing processes that don't touch the "wrong" parts of the system to keep running)
The question then is what tradeoffs you need to make to get decent scalability across cores, and SillySMP has started to determine that.
For AROS this issue is massively simplified in that:
1) AFAIK there are nobody crazy enough to plan to try to build an m68k SMP machine to run AROS. As such "our" m68k apps are limited to running in UAE, possibly in coherence mode, which means that while the applications themselves may be "badly behaved" they have no direct access to AROS system structures - all access is mediated.
2) All other applications are compiled for AROS anyway.
"Amiga legacy" compatibility is thus "easy" for AROS: Make the UAE process handle SMP, for values of "handle SMP" that can worst case involve making the UAE processes only run on a single CPU and aggressively apply locking (though there is little reason why this needs to be the case).
A substantial percentage of applications compiled for AROS will require no source changes: Many of them never touch system structures in a way that will prove problematic even in an "optimal" SMP implementation. Many more can handle things fine with the approach that SillySMP takes.
For the ones that *do* need changes, most or all of those changes can be made in a way that is backwards compatible to plain AmigaOS (that is, we can write SMP safe applications in a way that we can ensure will continue to work if recompiled for non-SMP AmigaOS): We simply need more fine-grained locking, which can be provided in a way that'll either work on AmigaOS (but that would require you only run well behaved apps) or fall back on Forbid() on AmigaOS.
And in fact, as Jason pointed out in a couple of comments on the threads you pointed to, some of the "problematic" behaviour is *broken* on AmigaOS anyway, and just happens to "mostly work" by sheer luck. In fact, this may prove to be the biggest challenge.
No, no, no, either it's 100% compatible, or it's NOT! There is *nothing* in between! It's purely digital, either 1 or 0, it's either fully black or fully white.
I nominate this as the most ridiculous statement of the decade. Did you ever have a kickstart 1.2 machine and upgrade to 1.3? 2.0? 3.1? Each of those were an example of a "not 100% compatible" upgrade. Yet I'd expect few people here would argue they were not mostly compatible.
Purposely building an OS that sits in the grey scale between black and white will mean that its applications will be running in a mine field; Some may perhaps run, some longer than others, but there are no guarantees whatsoever. This is simply not serious, it would be a joke, and any OS developer who thinks that "less than 100% compatibility/stability" is OK and actually something to *aim for*, shouldn't be taken seriously as well!
You completely miss the point. The point is not that it is acceptable to run applications that randomly break, but that it is completely acceptable to say "ok, this will work fine for about 90% of applications, the rest *either must be sandboxed, must be fixed, or you can't run them*". The idea of 100% compatibility is a unicorn - it's a fantasy. And it's better to give up on the idea, and be pragmatic about it:
Our application base is small enough that for many types of changes, it is less effort to *test and verify* and *fix* or accept that some apps will not be usable outside of UAE than it is to obsess over a 100% compatibility that will forever hamper us. AROS is not identical to AmigaOS anyway: We *need* to test and verify every application on a regular basis to ensure that changes does not break apps that works fine on AmigaOS. And the same will be true for ARIX.
Every iteration of the actual AmigaOS left applications behind that were broken, and/or forced people to upgrade their applications for them to keep working too - this is nothing new. What is new is that for the NG OS's we have sandboxing as an "easy" alternative to keep those applications running if the effort to fix them is too great.
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any OS developer who thinks that "less than 100% compatibility/stability" is OK and actually something to *aim for*, shouldn't be taken seriously as well!
You might want to rethink that statement as MorphOS isn't 100% compatible with Amiga software. ;)
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@vidarh
Well then, this sounds like a plan! Go ahead! :)
@nicholas
You might want to rethink that statement as MorphOS isn't 100% compatible with Amiga software. ;)
Maybe you meant to say that some Amiga SW isn't 100% compatible to a system that's missing Amiga HW?
;)
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@vidarh
Well then, this sounds like a plan! Go ahead! :)
@nicholas
Maybe you meant to say that some Amiga SW isn't 100% compatible to a system that's missing Amiga HW?
;)
No. Reread the Morphzone threads. It's about lack of Planar screens on RTG, which AmigaOS4/Picasso handles, but was removed from CGX and clearly noted in the notes in ModePro mode promotion s/w. Not making a big deal of it, but still...
#6
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@vidarh
Well then, this sounds like a plan! Go ahead! :)
@nicholas
Maybe you meant to say that some Amiga SW isn't 100% compatible to a system that's missing Amiga HW?
;)
Nope, there are programs that work on OS4 on systems that lack Amiga hardware too, OctaMED being one example.
It's OK to not be 100% compatible you know.
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@vidarh
Well then, this sounds like a plan! Go ahead! :)
Ironically, I'm busy fixing compatibility issues right now. (Between AROS network includes and POSIX requirements...)
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What is the status of this project? Seems very little has been happening or it's very quiet.
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The last entry on Facebook says they'll be represented at a California Linux event on THURSDAY 20/02/14. Unfortunately the event started on Friday the 21st....
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What is the status of this project? Seems very little has been happening or it's very quiet.
some new posts (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38492&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0)
#6
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i wonder what it means "arix compiled".. so an app needs to be particularly compiled for multicore usage. i somehow hoped aros api would be taken over with only the most necessary extensions not to cause another split.
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i wonder what it means "arix compiled".. so an app needs to be particularly compiled for multicore usage. i somehow hoped aros api would be taken over with only the most necessary extensions not to cause another split.
I do not know if that is really meant. The lowlevel stuff is changed so they certainly have their own hidden infrastructure to compile it. On top of it is Aros. As a example Jason said he would contribute all changes to the normal AROS ABI1. i can remember one screenshot showing a Magellan icon on it so I think from a application view AROS and ARIX will be the same, everything different would be a disaster.
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I think from a application view AROS and ARIX will be the same,
That is correct.
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@terminills
looks like we have contradicting information in this thread:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38492&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0
looks like arix will be able to run aros binaries (v1?), that means the backward compatibility will be granted (but aros v1 has no significant application pool nevertheless except what gets compiled in the contribs, so what?). then it seems arix extensions will need to be backported to aros to grant future binary compatibility even though aros may not be able to take advantage of certain features such as multicore support.
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some new posts (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38492&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0)
#6
"I would have rather have had Terminills comment on it but he's still banned for another moon or so."
Their loss! In your face, AW.net! :lol: :p ;)
Good thing he can post here at least (for the moment :nervous:)...
;)
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"I would have rather have had Terminills comment on it but he's still banned for another moon or so."
Their loss! In your face, AW.net! :lol: :p ;)
Good thing he can post here at least (for the moment :nervous:)...
;)
Heh. I guess social media will be the place to watch first, since that's where the bit about NDAs being active appeared a few weeks ago. But who knows?
#6
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Hmm, went to the page to see if a demonstration video was up yet and the page is down.
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Hmm, went to the page to see if a demonstration video was up yet and the page is down.
you mean this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDCNZFPR1K8&feature=youtu.be
this computer really sounds like an accelerating truck..
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Good thing he can post here at least (for the moment :nervous:)...
;)
just wait a little..
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you mean this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDCNZFPR1K8&feature=youtu.be
this computer really sounds like an accelerating truck..
OK, so it boots....
...not exactly the sort of demonstration video I was looking for. :)
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you mean this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDCNZFPR1K8&feature=youtu.be
this computer really sounds like an accelerating truck..
6 Core Monster(which ironically was sitting right next to the mic) lol ;D
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That is correct.
yes great news but my notebook sitting right next to me is getting anxious waiting for ARIX to be installed on it;)
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So how does ARIX differ from AEROS?
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So how does ARIX differ from AEROS?
Arix only uses the kernel and a few libs vs a whole distro. While aeros is a great idea and I personally enjoy it. The hope was to merely use Linux for drivers in the kernel nothing more.
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I for one can't wait to see this. Every day use amiga machine here we come!
Using the linux drivers is brilliant. Should run on ANY pc...
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Yep, I could imagine that ARIX can replace AROS (native and hosted) which does not mean that there could be no ARIX Broadway for example.
AEROS Comes with a full Linux Environment and opens the door to Linux apps (you can say it is bloated but this is needed to run Linux apps : ) ).
Latest AEROS Versions boot in less than 5sec anyway on SSD's or Hybrid drives.
ARIX uses the same ideology of using Linux Drivers but does it on a lower Level (non bloated and AROS is the only Thing a user will see).
It solves the Problem that AROS has no Drivers without the Need to run a full blown Linux. The opposite is that without full blown Linux under the hood, no Linux apps.
ARIX nightly would be smilar on size of AROS nightly
AEROS nightly would be +40MB (without AROS/or Linux apps) if reduced to the Minimum.
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Yep, I could imagine that ARIX can replace AROS (native and hosted) which does not mean that there could be no ARIX Broadway for example.
AEROS Comes with a full Linux Environment and opens the door to Linux apps (you can say it is bloated but this is needed to run Linux apps : ) ).
Latest AEROS Versions boot in less than 5sec anyway on SSD's or Hybrid drives.
ARIX uses the same ideology of using Linux Drivers but does it on a lower Level (non bloated and AROS is the only Thing a user will see).
It solves the Problem that AROS has no Drivers without the Need to run a full blown Linux. The opposite is that without full blown Linux under the hood, no Linux apps.
ARIX nightly would be smilar on size of AROS nightly
AEROS nightly would be +40MB (without AROS/or Linux apps) if reduced to the Minimum.
It is a great concept. I hope that there will be a nightly that can be used by you and others to create "Arix" versions of your distributions. It would give the platform a big push forward.
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I for one can't wait to see this. Every day use amiga machine here we come!
Using the linux drivers is brilliant. Should run on ANY pc...
In time it certainly should. While prepping the linux kernel I learned one thing. Many linux video drivers are buggy. :)
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It is a great concept. I hope that there will be a nightly that can be used by you and others to create "Arix" versions of your distributions. It would give the platform a big push forward.
There will be.
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I for one can't wait to see this. Every day use amiga machine here we come!
Using the linux drivers is brilliant. Should run on ANY pc...
IMO:
-To become brilliant everyday machine, AROS (the base behind ARIX) needs to evolve a lot (MorphOS is tough benchmark, and also it has some weaknesses)
-Linux does not run on ANY pc, if one expects full HW support. (I have 5 x86 systems, and every one needs driver love before Linux runs in any decent way) Custom HW is the best way for a niche to do a high quality system.
(Open source AROS and perhaps also ARIX is number one candidate for new HW tinkerer/manufacturer to enter into our niche, because of the most open ideology.
For example, if I managed to get a custom (PPC or x86) HW to production, I would first get AROS on it, then approach ARIX, MorphOS and AmigaOS4 teams.)
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IMO:
-To become brilliant everyday machine, AROS (the base behind ARIX) needs to evolve a lot (MorphOS is tough benchmark, and also it has some weaknesses)
-Linux does not run on ANY pc, if one expects full HW support. (I have 5 x86 systems, and every one needs driver love before Linux runs in any decent way) Custom HW is the best way for a niche to do a high quality system.
(Open source AROS and perhaps also ARIX is number one candidate for new HW tinkerer/manufacturer to enter into our niche, because of the most open ideology.
For example, if I managed to get a custom (PPC or x86) HW to production, I would first get AROS on it, then approach ARIX, MorphOS and AmigaOS4 teams.)
from my experience with Aros 68k I would say three areas are to improve: Desktop (Wanderer that some prefer, Magellan is also a good option there), Zune (it is still not fully 3.8 from my experience) and generally optimize 68k integration. Additionally there are problems/errors left that has to be solved and are platform-dependent like MESA/Gallium not fully working (wrong colours) on both Aros 68k and PPC. Then it would become a decent platform for all amigans.
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If it is worth running I don't mind sourcing parts. PC parts are dirt cheap. Or support the most popular cards.
What is wrong with continuing AROS anyway? Could you run into different problems trying to merge two systems?
I haven't tried hosted AROS, which one is closer to Amithlon?
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If it is worth running I don't mind sourcing parts. PC parts are dirt cheap. Or support the most popular cards.
What is wrong with continuing AROS anyway? Could you run into different problems trying to merge two systems?
I haven't tried hosted AROS, which one is closer to Amithlon?
It depends on how you define "AROS". Most people equal AROS with X86 and that has nothing to do with Amithlon. Amithlon (as I know it) compiles 68k code in X86 before running, AROS only runs special compiled software, on X86 you can run X86, on ARM ARM, on PPC PPC software. you cannot mix between platforms and you cannot mix with 68k (like on MorphOS/AmigaOS and Amithlon). Hosted means it is started as a appliation using the resources of the main system, so it is "perhaps" comparable but not really. The only platform where you can mix Aros with 68k is Aros 68k (that way I created Aros Vision)
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It depends on how you define "AROS". Most people equal AROS with X86 and that has nothing to do with Amithlon. Amithlon (as I know it) compiles 68k code in X86 before running, AROS only runs special compiled software, on X86 you can run X86, on ARM ARM, on PPC PPC software. you cannot mix between platforms and you cannot mix with 68k (like on MorphOS/AmigaOS and Amithlon). Hosted means it is started as a appliation using the resources of the main system, so it is "perhaps" comparable but not really. The only platform where you can mix Aros with 68k is Aros 68k (that way I created Aros Vision)
I'm saying nothing.......
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I'm saying nothing.......
Huh?
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I was going to type that too, but then I realized I'd be saying something, or typing something anyhow. :)
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I was going to type that too, but then I realized I'd be saying something, or typing something anyhow. :)
Something wrong with my explanation?
then make a better explanation...
Intelligent comments like "I'm saying nothing......." are easy...
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This just an AROS fork?
Just curious why I'd want to run this vs. AROS.
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Something wrong with my explanation?
then make a better explanation...
Intelligent comments like "I'm saying nothing......." are easy...
Oh, I'm just making wise cracks, they are not serious nor are they directed at anyone in particular. :)
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This just an AROS fork?
Just curious why I'd want to run this vs. AROS.
My understanding was that this was to be like Amithlon, only using Aros 68k.
AerOS on the other hand I thought was supposed to be a merger betweek Linux and AROS x86, thus giving AROS users the benefit of more drivers, as well as acess to Linux apps and Windows appls via Wine, though with an AROS interface, at least that's what I believe the intended goal is.
Maybe Arix isn't 68k compatible as I thought? I dunno... so many distrobutions. So few videos demonstrating what exactly these can do.
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It is not like amithlon. You need janus-uae for 68k integration.
Same as aros native, hosted and so aeros.
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This just an AROS fork?
Just curious why I'd want to run this vs. AROS.
its not amithlon, except the similarity that like amithlon it runs a hosted system upon a linux driver layer under the hood. amithlon did it for amiga 68k i guess, arix does that with aros (presumably x64).
the advantage against genuine aros would be wider hardware choice, in fact the hardware choice that linux offers. another one would be multicore support out of the box.
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So why run it vs. the various AROS variants?
Don't mean to smack talk anyones hard efforts, just curious what it would offer me vs. one of the AROS linux hosted versions.
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So why run it vs. the various AROS variants?
Don't mean to smack talk anyones hard efforts, just curious what it would offer me vs. one of the AROS linux hosted versions.
Drivers, and for that fact that presuming AROS crashes (no memory protection, still in alpha/beta stages technically), you shouldn't have to do a full system restart in order to get back to your desktop. At least those are two advantages I see.
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@XDelsuion
Arix will also provide multi-processor support, something still lacking in AROS.
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@XDelsuion
Arix will also provide multi-processor support, something still lacking in AROS.
Honestly?! How so?
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Cool, thanks for the reply - not trying to belittle anyones efforts here, just curious what it will offer vs. the various AROS implementations, which I've had horribly bad results with, tbh.
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@XDelsuion
Arix will also provide multi-processor support, something still lacking in AROS.
Sure but only because it has not been added in Mainstream aros doesn't mean that it can't be added.
BTW the tread is in Repeating-Mode ; )
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@XDelusion
I don't want to speak for the Arix dev team, but if I understand what Michal Schulz has stated about Arix, Arix uses a modified Linux kernel with an AROS API translation layer or "shim" sitting on top of it. This allows Arix and AROS applications to make full use of multi-core processors. Michal gave a very detailed and in-depth overview of Arix some months ago where he explained much of how this worked, I think the threads were over at AmigaWorld if you're curious about the details.
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@phoenixkonsole
I hope that multi-processor support IS added to AROS in the future. I believe that's one of the stated goals but I'm not sure if/when we'll see it in the native AROS releases.
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I wonder if this will also improve the state of the graphics card drivers that we currently have. From what I understand we are still missing a lot of features in that department compared to Linux.
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@XDelusion
Yes, driver support will be greatly improved under Arix but another positive side effect is that Arix will allow AROS application software developers to continue writing code independently of the AROS/Arix operating system developers. This will allow for mature, robust application development to occur independently of the native AROS OS and driver development.
Another unintended side effect, for good or bad depending on your viewpoint, is that some people may just opt to use Arix and lose interest in "native" AROS.
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- sorry misunderstood the last post - just ignore ; )
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@XDelusion
Yes, driver support will be greatly improved under Arix but another positive side effect is that Arix will allow AROS application software developers to continue writing code independently of the AROS/Arix operating system developers. This will allow for mature, robust application development to occur independently of the native AROS OS and driver development.
Another unintended side effect, for good or bad depending on your viewpoint, is that some people may just opt to use Arix and lose interest in "native" AROS.
On that note, they would have to write their code to specifically take advantage of the addtional CPU's/Cores wouldn't they? That is if they wanted to make use of them, which I believe in turn would break native AROS support, correct?
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On that note, they would have to write their code to specifically take advantage of the addtional CPU's/Cores wouldn't they? That is if they wanted to make use of them
That would be true of ASMP but not neccesarily of SMP where the scheduler usually takes care of it.
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Huh?
My none-comment was/was not a none-comment regarding the last sentence of your post. Or something like that. ;)
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That would be true of ASMP but not neccesarily of SMP where the scheduler usually takes care of it.
Aghh yes, the old (ASMP) American Society of Media Photographers vs (SMP) Symmetric MultiProcessing argument.
I never quite understood that one. ;)
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That would be true of ASMP but not neccesarily of SMP where the scheduler usually takes care of it.
that still should be confirmed by arix team. we have contradicting statements on that issue.
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So on ARIX, what filesystems can you use? Does it have a terminal, a CLI or both? Is the whole of the Unix directory structure there (/usr, /home, /etc, /var and the rest plus the Amiga directory structure? Is Xwindows available to run unix apps? Is an emulator to run Android apps available?
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That would be true of ASMP but not neccesarily of SMP where the scheduler usually takes care of it.
Do you really know what you're talking about? In what way is a heterogenous system related to typical amiga hardware or typical desktop processor? A scheduler does not magically split up tasks into threads and spread them amongst the cores. Software has to be written to do so (no matter if asymmetric or not).
The lack of backward compatibillity is another point. Software written for existing and available linux drivers/hardware/smp won't run on bare aros.
This slows down developement on native aros, if it not kills.
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So on ARIX, what filesystems can you use?
FFS, SFS, NTFS , FAT Currently
Does it have a terminal, a CLI or both?
Cli
Is the whole of the Unix directory structure there (/usr, /home, /etc, /var and the rest plus the Amiga directory structure?
The only place that has the Unix directory structure is the initial Ramdisk. From the user perspective only the Amiga directory structure is available.
Is Xwindows available to run unix apps? Is an emulator to run Android apps available?
No and No.
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FFS, SFS, NTFS , FAT Currently
Cli
The only place that has the Unix directory structure is the initial Ramdisk. From the user perspective only the Amiga directory structure is available.
No and No.
Sounds a lot like paradise to me. :)
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Sounds a lot like paradise to me. :)
+1
I think it sounds better than what happened with apple moving from system10(or whatever number) to OSX, from legacy lover perspective.
It will be silly if this AROS derivate accelerates from far behind and is the first to do SMP+64bit. (while maintaining a lot of AOS look & feel)
One thing... will ARIX be able to handle memory protection?
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Do you really know what you're talking about?
It appears you don't.
In what way is a heterogenous system related to typical amiga hardware or typical desktop processor? A scheduler does not magically split up tasks into threads and spread them amongst the cores.
Who mentioned threads? The scheduler decides which TASKS run on which cores and moves them around when needed based on CPU load.
Software has to be written to do so (no matter if asymmetric or not).
That would be multi-threading. Do keep up.
The lack of backward compatibillity is another point. Software written for existing and available linux drivers/hardware/smp won't run on bare aros.
Yes they will, it's just slow.
This slows down developement on native aros, if it not kills.
You keep mentioning AROS when were are discussing ARIX. Please pay attention.
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isnt that one could compile with the use of multiple threads for amiga and derivates already, for instance separating gui from actual program thread, except that both threads had to run on one core so far?
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isnt that one could compile with the use of multiple threads for amiga and derivates already, for instance separating gui from actual program thread, except that both threads had to run on one core so far?
What was the methode used when people ported (and still port) multithreaded apps to AOS etc.?
(I try to remember if it was some way to create child processes instead of threads...)
Looking...
http://aminet.net/search?query=thread
(so, it seems like you should be able to do multithreaded apps already for most/all flavours. They just have been running using single core, perhaps rework is needed to use truely multicore system.)
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Drivers, and for that fact that presuming AROS crashes (no memory protection, still in alpha/beta stages technically), you shouldn't have to do a full system restart in order to get back to your desktop. At least those are two advantages I see.
As a matter of fact it's an instant restart in the case of the Aros side crashing.
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+1
I think it sounds better than what happened with apple moving from system10(or whatever number) to OSX, from legacy lover perspective.
It will be silly if this AROS derivate accelerates from far behind and is the first to do SMP+64bit. (while maintaining a lot of AOS look & feel)
One thing... will ARIX be able to handle memory protection?
Get it working correctly first then add features. So for now it's limited to the same type of memory protection Aros has. :)
Here's some noise from boot.
http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=VCE3Mbuh
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Thanks for the info.
btw. Is Arix developed in parallell for several ISAs, or is it x86 first then the rest?
(x86/x64/PPC/PPC64/ARM)
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So then Linux is hidden in an inaccessible ram disk? What if you want to run a Linux app like you do in AREOS?
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So then Linux is hidden in an inaccessible ram disk? What if you want to run a Linux app like you do in AREOS?
You can't. Same as Amithlon.
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These ARIX topics seem to be going in circles, with most people still not understanding. These things have been mentioned umpteen times, but for the sake of (hopeful) clarification:
ARIX isnt linux hosted. It runs on the ARIX kernel, which is the AROS kernel with a shiv to allow for linux drivers to be used, plus some other bits and pieces to allow for some other enhanced functionality to be more easily included.
It's not linux, nor does it use linux apis, xwindows, etc. It's essentially AROS with a different kernel (although heavily based on AROS).
As for the amithlon comparison, it doesnt have anything to do with. 68k, but rather the way linux drivers are used.
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You can't. Same as Amithlon.
So what's the point of having linux there and not be able to use it, might as well not be there at all.
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@persia
If i should go in smartypants mode might remember that technically linux is just the kernel and what usually make a distro is the kernel + userland software (X, window manager, shell, etc); so ARIX is instead linux kernel coupled with Amiga userland software rather than the linux ones.
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Let's keep the IQ of my underwear out of this. If you have a Linux kernel around it's a shame to waste it. There's a lot of Linux software that are nice to have around under AROS, such as word processors, video editing, picture editing, etc.
If you are running even a low end i3 there's more than enough power to run most Linux apps.
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Then looks like AEROS is right for your needs imo
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Then looks like AEROS is right for your needs imo
Exactly!
Although I don't think that any of the Arix developers would object to someone building a version of Arix later that has some of the functionality of AEROS. Maybe one with less bloat if the modified kernel takes up less space than the full Linux kernel, or if they implement a lightweight X-windows environment to allow most Linux apps to run, while keeping out as much bloat code as possible.
But it appears that this is not the goal of ARIX and that they are only concerned with taking advantage of the Linux drivers, not the userland or Linux apps.
One of the ARIX developers will correct me if my assumptions are wrong.
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So what's the point of having linux there and not be able to use it, might as well not be there at all.
I suppose the best way to think about it would be that AROS is the userland on top of a Linux kernel, normally Linux distributions tend to use a GNU Posix compatible userland on top if Linux.
Would it be a waste if I produced an OS that used a Linux kernel, but only included the GNUStep userland? ;)
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So then essentially the Linux kernel is replacing Kickstart?
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ARIX is a hybrid kernel. It's just AROS with sections borrowed from Linux. Or it's Linux with an exclusive AROS compatibility harness.
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After reading back a few posts I'd say that it only uses part of the Linux kernel. Not the whole thing.
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So then essentially the Linux kernel is replacing Kickstart?
Sound to me as they have created a wrapper for the Linux kernel models, but that's not so simple, as the it will need a large part of Linux kernel for it to function, it will need to support fork(), and other parts the kernel module might need.
I can't read from this if they need to adapt the Linux kernel modules for Arix or if they use the kernel modules unmodified.
I'm assuming the need to recompile and make small adjustments.
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ARIX is a hybrid kernel. It's just AROS with sections borrowed from Linux. Or it's Linux with an exclusive AROS compatibility harness.
That's not quite correct. It's modified Linux kernel. Arix uses a Linux kernel with an AROS shim/API translation layer sitting on top of that kernel. This has been explained in depth by Michal Shulz, the lead Arix developer.
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Sound to me as they have created a wrapper for the Linux kernel models, but that's not so simple, as the it will need a large part of Linux kernel for it to function, it will need to support fork(), and other parts the kernel module might need.
I can't read from this if they need to adapt the Linux kernel modules for Arix or if they use the kernel modules unmodified.
I'm assuming the need to recompile and make small adjustments.
You are correct.
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Bump.
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Ship it already!