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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: motorollin on April 26, 2007, 09:35:18 PM
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I've got my DCE internal scandoubler installed in my A4000. On my LCD TV, the scansoubler output looks awful. A large amount of the picture is off the screen. The quality is very poor, and there horizontal bars scrolling down the screen.
I brought a 17" CRT home from work today and tried the scandoubler output on that. It looked perfect - absolutely brilliant quality. I'm just wondering if this is normal? Why would the quality be so bad on the TFT? Is it just because the resolution from the scandoubler is not the optimal resolution of the screen?
This is not really a problem as I can just keep the CRT. I'm just curious about why it would happen.
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moto
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What screenmode? Some TFT screens have trouble with PAL modes (31kHz/50Hz). Mine looks okay in PAL High Res but gives an "signal out of range" error, but works fine in NTSC.
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It was PAL. I didn't think of trying NTSC since the screen is PAL.
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moto
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Same here on my DCE scandoubler. It is a problem with TFT's.
I am running my scandoubler to a 23 inch TFT and I had to auto adjust the image before it became good. And by good it is still not perfect, but the image is at least centered.
On a CRT the picture is crystal clear, not much you can do about it.
(Had the same problem with an Amiga 3000 on an old 15 inch TFT, the funny thing is my A1200 with DCE scandoubler wont output any image on the same 15 inch TFT).
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Oh well, I'll keep the CRT. Looks like I'll have an LCD TV for sale soon :-)
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moto
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I've run into the same myself. The SD/FF looks great on all CRTs, but only looks good on a 19" Dell FP1901. It looks crappy on the 20" FP2001, and distorted on a 17" LCD.
I believe this is related to the "optimal resolution" of the LCD.
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Yeah, I ran into the same problem when hooking up an Amiga 3000 to a Samsung 19 inch LCD monitor that became "surplus" when I put a 22-inch LCD on my Mac yesterday. When you give the LCD a resolution that is not "optimum," the monitor must scale the image to its native resolution. The scaling, obviously, is imperfect. I think for my 3000 I will be going back to the 14-inch CRT that I bought at a thrift store for $15 and figure out something else to do with my nice (but not for Amiga) 19-inch LCD.
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what about using a smaller size LCD TV like 640x480 pixels instead of all the other beast (800x600, 1024x768, 1280x1024).
picture quality might be better :idea:
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Sounds like the frequency output of the Scandoubler is very slightly too low for the LCD display...
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motorollin wrote:
I've got my DCE internal scandoubler installed in my A4000.
Dont those suck for AGA screen modes? They are only 16-bit.
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@ moto
Congrats on getting your scandoubler mate :pint:
Are you seeing the boot picture that I set it up with for you now? :-D
A4000 Mad
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o164/Cyberstorm604e/68060inside.jpg)
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alexh wrote:
motorollin wrote:
I've got my DCE internal scandoubler installed in my A4000.
Dont those suck for AGA screen modes? They are only 16-bit.
I can't remember if it was this particular model but I remember some of them had a bizzare RGB 8:4:4 resolution which, understandably looks awful if you aren't already restricted to OCS/ECS 12-bit colour depth.
I can't quite understand why anybody would pick RGB 8:4:4 when RGB 5:6:5 (regular 16-bit) makes much more sense. Even if you were forced to split the 16 bits into one 8-bit channel and 2 4-bit ones, at least make the green one 8-bit, since it contributes the most to the overall luminance.
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Well it looks as good through the DCE Scandoubler as it does directly from the RGB port, so I'm happy.
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moto
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Yeah, on the right monitor mine looked good also. AGA games/demos, even HAM modes with Shapeshifter seemed to look as they should.
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Dudes if you try the old games in lcd you will be always got a very pixelized graphics. Because nowadays most lcd's got the optimal resolution somewhere 1024*768 or better. And crt-s handled the pixel array a little bit different than lcd-s. So go for a bigger workbench at your home to put on a good crt. :-D
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The scandoublers are not the only ones which have problems with TFTs.
The Cybervision, by default, offers a number of display resolutions/refresh rates which are non standard and display horribly on TFTs.
I had to spend a couple hours hours making sure every available mode on my CV64/3D are VESA compliant and don't cause problems.
That being said, converting the Amigas NTSC display into VGA normally results on a display mode which is very close to 640 x 480 @60Hz but with a slightly higher pixel rate but still at the same scan rate. This is a VESA compliant standard.
However, a display mode with 50Hz vertical refresh (PAL x 2) and 576 horizontal scanlines does not exist in the VESA realm. Hence the problem with PAL but not NTSC.
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Dont those suck for AGA screen modes? They are only 16-bit.
I had one of these too, they offer great quality, and never really saw the difference until I installed on the same 4000 an Arxon videoslot sd... there is color gradient missing on the dce, because it is 16bit...
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I've had a lot of tweaking an generally a few problems when using a Scandoubler but i've found out a few things;
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A600 (A-RGB) + Indivision SD/FF + 17" LCD (VGA) =
PAL - Too low frequency for the LCD wich results in a constant errormessage onscreen, but with a ok picture behind it. Picture offscreen on top and left sides. Tweaking with the pot-meter on the Indivision a lot to get a stable picture needed. For a LCD to work properly with a Scandoubler, you need the rare models that can sync down to 50Hz. Search the net for these.
NTSC - Almost too low frequnecy but good enough to work. No errormessage. Picture is crisp, clear, strong colours. Picture still offscreen. Tweaking with the pot-meter on the Indivision a lot to get a stable picture needed. Picture looks pixelated because of LCD technology. NTSC is not a good signalstandard when using the amiga for PAL-games and software, so this is not a good overall solution. The games and wb I tried worked good though.
CD32 (A-RGB) + Indivision SD/FF + 17" LCD (VGA) =
Same as above with both PAL and NTSC. Using SX32, that's why I could test with A-RGB on the CD32.
A600 (A-RGB) + Indivision SD/FF + DLP Projector (VGA2DVI) =
PAL and NTSC - After tweaking the pot-meter, very good picture, as I remember also no offscreen problems. Not so pixelated either, because of the DLP technology (kind of a CRT/LCD combo). The modern projector is a flexible and highly signal compatible piece of equipment and works good with scandoublers, in my experience.
CD32 (A-RGB) + Indivision SD/FF + DLP Projector (VGA2DVI) =
PAL and NTSC - Same as above.
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Overall a standard LCD is not the best solution, but you can make it work if using only NTSC. If you get hold of a LCD that can sync down to 50Hz you get a nice picture with PAL compatibility.
Using a LCD-tv is probably better because it is more compatible, but these also have their problems like being widescreen native so that you loose a lot of screensize when using it with 4:3 equipment.
Using modern Projectors produce very good pictures because of their compatibility but blowing your wb out on the big screen isn't always what you want to do, so unless you're a gamer only type..
Using a CRT is probably the best solution picture and compatibility wise but then again you loose deskspace etc.
I must state that these tests where done with the high quality, recently made Indivison SD/FF and I have no experience with older Scandoublers/other equipment.
I have spoken to Jens Schönfeld earlier and he has said that he is working on a new, better SD/FF that eliminates several problems, among them the "too low frequency on LCD's" one.
System Details
Amiga 600 Project:
M-Tec w/8Mb
68030@40Mhz + FPU@33Mhz
1Mb w/clock ram upgrade
IDE2Flash with 2Gb CF-card
New chassis
New original Competition Pro sportsticks x2
Indivision SD/FF
Original OS 3.1
Amiga CD32 Project:
SX32 MK2 w/8Mb
680EC020@20Mhz
IDE2Flash with 2Gb CF-card
New chassis
New original CD32 gamepads x2
Indivision SD/FF
Original OS 3.9
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If you're using an LCD TV, why use a scan doubler at all?
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You're right, using an lcd-tv is like I said, better, and I didn't state you needed a Scandoubler for that purpose in my conclusion.
Anyway, I always try to use the best videosignals and when using a lcd-tv that would be a-rgb to vga so..you would need an adapter at least.
using a-rgb to scart would not produce the same quality, or am I totally wrong?
:)
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Scart allows RGB at 15KHz, it's part of the standard.
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kidkoala wrote:
You're right, using an lcd-tv is like I said, better, and I didn't state you needed a Scandoubler for that purpose in my conclusion.
Anyway, I always try to use the best videosignals and when using a lcd-tv that would be a-rgb to vga so..you would need an adapter at least.
using a-rgb to scart would not produce the same quality, or am I totally wrong?
You're totally wrong. The scandoubler is just an unnecessary extra step between your TV and the Amiga. And it might even be, that your TV is much better at handling PAL resolutions if you hook it up on the TV inputs and not the PC inputs.
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Sorry to hijack the thread but this looked promising a while back for Amiga users ... not sure if the project continues to this day or it's been shelved.
It appears it was intended for the C64 market but had very good possibilities for us amiga users as well.
The originating website (commodorescene.servebbs.org/vga.html) appears to be down at the time of posting, however Google has a cached version of the page if you search for it.
N.B. for some reason, I could not get A.org to insert the Google cached URL to the page :getmad:
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Well, I don't have a LCD-TV (cause I use a projector) but I know that the Scandoubler is of no use when using one. That's why I stated that I didn't write in my post that you do need one. I just stated that using an lcd-tv is a bit better than using a LCD-screen, because of the better compatibility with the signalstandard.
I do have a a-rgb2scart cable, and I'm getting an old standard tv from a friend soon so I might test that solution then, and I guess that solution will have better compatibility with the amiga, but the picture quality of an old tv isn't the best..
PS! I am on the lookout for a 15" lcd that can sync down to 50Hz so if anyone has one or know of a cheap one for sale pm me.
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Are you saying that your LCD TV doesn't have a SCART input?
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No, hehe, I'm saying I've never had an LCD-TV, I only have lcd-screen's (for computers) and a projector.
Using a lcd-tv is better than most lcd-screens, though when using lcd-tv's you will get a strecthed picture or loose a lot of the screensize because amigas aren't widescreen compatible.
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A few people have asked why I'm using a scandoubler with an LCD TV. Yes I know that using the SCART input from the Amiga's RGB socket will provide better quality. I have indeed been using it in this configuration for some time. But I wanted to use the CV64's autoswitch, which means scandoubling the RGB output to a VGA signal to feed in to the CV64. Now I know that scandoubled RGB screenmodes look horrible on a TFT screen (using a VGA input) I am no longer using the LCD TV.
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moto
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@motorollin
so what are you using now? i don't want a lcd-tv, but i do very much like to have a standard lcd-screen that syncs. down to 50hz, so that i don't have to use ntsc for my 600/cd32.
why is using a-rgb to scart input better than a-rgb to vga input (on lcd-tv's i presume)? and why do you say that pictures look awful when using vga input? i think they look ok, given the 10-15 years of age between the machine and the screen, and given the incompatibility issues..the onl thing i think look bad is the pixelated style of the picture..not very amiga-like..
BTW what's a cv64?
i just need to understand the technical stuff..makes me confused..;)
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I'm currently using a Compaq 17" CRT. RGB -> SCART is better than RGB -> VGA on a TFT because low resolutions (like the Amiga's RGB output) have to be scaled up to the high resolution of the TFT screen, which can result in poor quality. If you use the RGB input, then there is presumably some circuitry in the screen's own scandoubler which scales and dithers it nicely. CV64 is shorthand for Cybervision64, which is the graphics card I use. It has a VGA input as well as an output, and it can auto-switch between them.
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moto
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I guess I was luck; But i got a 19" HP LCD and using it with an external scandoubler (eyetech thingy). It works great!
Great screen to bring to demoparties etc :)=
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@kidkoala,
PAL SuperHiRes 1280 x 256. Laced 1280 x 512.
Overscanned to the max, 1448 x 566. :lol:
NTSC SuperHiRes 1280 x 200. Laced 1280 x 400.
Overscanned gives 240 or 480 lines (at least).
Wide enough?
Certainly, the image might get scaled vertically, but I can't see that the output isn't at least capable of wideness. :-)
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@meega
haha, you're sure right:) ..but that's the deal, i don't want wide resolutions on a wide screen that f~ck up the original image aspect;)
@krize
in my experience you must've been lucky, yes, cause the screens i've tried have 60hz as lowest capable sync., and when trying to find screens on the internet that supports 50hz, there aren't many..
what brand and model?
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@kidkoala
what brand and model?
All ViewSonic (http://www.viewsonic.com/) monitors sync down to 50Hz; I have a 15" one running off my CV64 and internal SD/FF and it works fine.
The picture is no where near the quality of a portable TV mind, so I'd say they're not the ideal solution.
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@Slash
cheese's..why didn't anyone tell me before! now i can just surf the norwegian auctionsites for viewsonics, thanks a lot slash..:)
i'm getting a tiny portable tv from a friend so i'll try and fix that one as well, then i get a direct comparison between tft and catode tubes which can be pretty interesting.