Next step for Amiga(like)OS?

[takemehomegrandma]

Piru wrote:

Take all that talent and knowledge from both OSes and create a new Amiga compatible and "Amiga like" OS that is a step into the future for everyone.

I see a small problem here, assuming Amiga Inc wins (and I can't see how they could lose really), it means that they would pursue any attempt to re-use the knowledge gained from working with the AmigaOS 4.0 (it is based on the original sources after all), meaning anyone in the team would be tainted forever.

So assuming such project would ever be started (note: this is speculation, I am not signing up to any such project here), it'd be quite impossible to include anyone from the OS4 team, just alone because of this.

BTW I don't find this funny, only slightly ironic.

Indeed, any OS4 developer will be like infected with the plague in this regard; they are forever polluted by Amiga IP and all other "AmigoidOS" developers should make sure to never even go near them.

[amigadave]

This is starting to sound too much like you guys want to exclude the AOS4.x team members no matter what and I am wondering if the motives are more than just objective.

This thread was probably a bad idea anyway.

Seems that our best hope for a unified future is for AInc. to go under, just like every other Amiga owner has.  They sure aren't going to do us any good.

[takemehomegrandma]

amigadave wrote:

I think that the AOS4.x team would need to be careful about what they create in the future,

Indeed, like *anything* "AmigoidOS"! Anything they will do in this regard in the future will be legally polluted with Amiga Inc IP.

but doubt that AInc. will waste their slim resources going after a hobby OS

The owners/investors of Amiga Inc has paid good money for the Amiga IP (millions of dollars) and if what you claim would have been true we wouldn't have seen this current lawsuit. Amiga Inc is *all about IP*, and its owners are obviously prepared to protect it.

if the AOS4.x team were to join up with the MorphOS2.x team and create something new, but similar to MorphOS2.x that would retain its backward compatibility with Classic Amiga software.

But WHY? MorphOS 2.0 is *already here*, why do something new?

The AOS4.x team can't be tainted forever to never work on anything close to an "Amiga-Like" OS.

Yes they can. They have seen the AmigaOS sources, they have worked with them. Few people on this planet has *as detailed and in-depth knowledge* about that part of Amiga's IP as those people. I have seen posts on online forum suggesting that all the OS4 team would have to do would be "removing the Amiga Inc IP", and then continue as usual (with a different name perhaps), and similar wishful thoughts. But from a legal point of view, that is *impossible*, you can't separate the IP once you have mixed them, and you can't "unlearn" the Immaterial Property from your brain, which will forever mean that anything they do in the future that is related to anything similar would be a big no-no, and would be like asking for trouble.

What would AInc. have to gain to start another lawsuit against the team if they start work on something new, but are using their knowledge and talent toward a similar, but different result?

If it's different (i.e something like Windows Vista, Linux, i.e. anything not related to AmigaOS) then *maybe* they would loosen the leash a bit (although it would naturally be in their best interest to keep an eye on them to spot any traces of Amiga IP that may have sneaked into the new OS, and they probably would do this). But if it's not Amiga related, why would anyone here be interested?

AInc. has not gone after the MorphOS2.x team lately.

They can't. They never could.

It just makes sense that if we could somehow put both sides back together working on one solution instead of two,

Oh I understand your point. And it's a nice thought!

In the year 2000 the entire community of users and developers could have gathered up around MorphOS. That would have made a difference back then. However, things played out differently. A *second* Next Generation "AmigoidOS" effort was launched instead.

You ask for *one* solution, and that one is already here, has been here all along, and will be here in the future as well. All users and application developers are completely free to jump on the MorphOS ship. Maybe some will when that other ship sinks? Who knows. But the OS4 developers can't be taken on board however (meaning: *as crew*; if they are mere "passengers" (users or third party application developers) it wouldn't be a problem, but they can't work on the OS itself). It would put the only remaining viable NG option at risk, as it would be a valid reason for Amiga Inc to open fire. And they aren't really needed either, there are already a clever bunch developing MorphOS. ;-)

it would get done twice as fast and might lead to something better than either alone has achieved.

I think at this point it's more about finding a commercial purpose for the OS...

[bloodline]

amigadave wrote:
This is starting to sound too much like you guys want to exclude the AOS4.x team members no matter what and I am wondering if the motives are more than just objective.

This thread was probably a bad idea anyway.

Seems that our best hope for a unified future is for AInc. to go under, just like every other Amiga owner has.  They sure aren't going to do us any good.

A Inc going under can only be a good thing... But hey why don't we forget about tainted code and propriatory operating systems and start a community based open source AmigaOS, that the community could then "own" free of any dodgy companies, legal issues and expensive hardware... Woe, woe and thrice woe, if only such a project existed... If only something like that had been started 10 years ago... Sigh... If only...

[takemehomegrandma]

amigadave wrote:
This is starting to sound too much like you guys want to exclude the AOS4.x team members no matter what and I am wondering if the motives are more than just objective.

It's simply about realism. Sorry to break your nice dream, but it can't happen, not even if the MorphOS team would have wanted it to. No other motives than that.

This thread was probably a bad idea anyway.

Nah, maybe this needed to be straightened out once and for all? ;-)

Seems that our best hope for a unified future is for AInc. to go under, just like every other Amiga owner has.  They sure aren't going to do us any good.

Amiga Inc won't "go under".

Amiga Inc is a bunch of Intellectual Property, that's all it is. If anything, it will be sold. But that only means that the IP changes owners.

[Martin_Lee]

...AROS?

[persia]

Let's be straight here, we are talking about CBM IP, much of it beyond the 17 year threshold/shelf life.

There are four questions here

1) None of the original CBM the Original CBM IP related to the Amiga is still legally binding.  There have been derivative works, 3.5 and 3.9 that would protect some of the IP, but exactly how much?  

2) What was the deal that Amino (Amiga Inc Washington) had with Gateway?  Did they get the IP or just use of the IP and name?  

3) When Amino (Amiga Inc Washington) ran away from it's creditors and former employees, it bailed some of the IP it had control over to Hyperion and the majority to KMOS (Amiga Inc Delaware).  What did they bail to Hyperion and what to KMOS?  And, if they didn't actually own the IP but simply had an exclusive lease on it, did they have the right to transfer it at all?

4) What agreements did Hyperion have with KMOS (Amiga Inc Deleware) after the noble escape from the debt accrued by Amino?

It's a tangled web of deceit and lies that may take years to untangle.  We're dealing with three bankruptcies and dozens of different contracts.  We don't have a consistent IP holder over any period of time.  In the end Hyperion could argue that Amiga Inc is nothing but a name badge, much like Packard Bell was, and that if Amino didn't have the right to transfer the agreement with Gateway the whole Amiga name and AmigaOS are abandon ware because Acer and it's subsidiary Gateway have not enforced their agreement with Amino, have not pursued KMOS and generally ignored the Amiga IP and name.

[bloodline]

If anybody was atually interestested any more... then it could probably be sorted out really quite easily... Ihe sad part is that no one is interesting in some worthless prehistoric IP and a brand that died in the early 90s...

In a world of iPhones and Xboxes, PS3s and Wiis, A landscape of Vistas and Leopards... the Amiga is nothing more than a footnote in an old history book somewhere.

[jorkany]

amigadave,

Are you joking! If you think there is a mystery OS5 out there somewhere in AInc's hands, you just have not kept up with what is really happening.

OS5 is real and will be delivered by the Easter Bunny when it's released!

j/k of course. Personally I don't see a point in a "next step for Amiga(like)OS", though I accept that some feel differently. From my perspective AROS is your best shot, MorphOS a close second. OS4 is just a joke waiting on a punchline.

[uncharted]

Piru wrote:
@amigadave

I don't think they would have a case against a new OS coded by the AOS4.x and MorphOS2.x teams either, unless both teams really screwed up and tried to copy parts of AOS4.x too closely.

No MorphOS team member have had any access to OS4 source code, ever, so it would be impossible for anyone outside the OS4 team to know if some random code is clean or not. At least I wouldn't be ready to take the risk of getting the whole project tainted by any OS4 code.

And even if it was clean, A Inc could drag the new project to court for years, just because of a possibility of such a thing. No, I wouldn't include any OS4 team members to such project.

The problem is, there is the legitmate question of whether or not Ralph Schmidt ever had access to the OS3.x code.  It is an entirely plausible scenario, whether people like it or not.

Until this question is definitively answered (and probably the only way to do that is in a court of law), then there will be a shadow over MorphOS, that Amiga Inc. could use to make a nuisance of themselves.  They only need something small to initiate a nuisance lawsuit, that could effectively kill off the project and cause its contributors no end of headaches.

It doesn't help that whenever I've seen Ralph publicly confronted with the allegation, I've not seen him deny it outright, only reply with some bull-shit about the source from OS1.x being published in some C= book or that duff German court ruling. (If anyone can point me somewhere where he has, then great - I don't claim be the definitive source on this :-))

If it does transpire that Ralph did have access, then MorphOS is just as {bleep}ed as AmigaOS 4.  Worse, it could also have bad knock-on effects for AROS.  :-(

[amigadave]

bloodline wrote:
A Inc going under can only be a good thing... But hey why don't we forget about tainted code and propriatory operating systems and start a community based open source AmigaOS, that the community could then "own" free of any dodgy companies, legal issues and expensive hardware... Woe, woe and thrice woe, if only such a project existed... If only something like that had been started 10 years ago... Sigh... If only...

I don't see the MorphOS team as a dodgy company, but I know that they must have their own skeletons in the closet.

I take your sarcasm is pointed at the slow to materialize AROS project that has not gained more support.

Edit: I don't think the actual AOS4.x programmers are dodgy either, but have my doubts about Hyperion.

All in all I think greed and stupid decisions have ruined the next generation Amiga.

[persia]

Wouldn't it be nice if AROS could get under the Novel umbrella?  Novel would have no trouble swatting an insignificant insect like Amiga Inc/KMOS.  And it would give AROS a credibility amongst developers that it doesn't currently have.

[amigadave]

bloodline wrote:
If anybody was atually interestested any more... then it could probably be sorted out really quite easily... Ihe sad part is that no one is interesting in some worthless prehistoric IP and a brand that died in the early 90s...

In a world of iPhones and Xboxes, PS3s and Wiis, A landscape of Vistas and Leopards... the Amiga is nothing more than a footnote in an old history book somewhere.

You are right, not even AInc. was interested in AmigaOS4 until it was close to being finished and they thought they could steal a few bucks from the developers working on it.  

But many of the members here and elsewhere around the world on other sites like this one, there are a few hundreds of people still interested in what is going to happen to AmigaOS4.x and a similar number that are interested in MorphOS2.x.  Those are the people that matter to me and the reason I am here.  

From all the negative comments you repeatedly make (I know you will only say they are realistic, not negative, but that is just your excuse), I wonder why you are a member here and spend so much time and effort putting down almost every Amiga development and new idea.  This is not meant as an attack on you, just an observation of your many recent messages on many different topics.  Such as the comment above.  To most of the members here the Amiga brand did not die in the early 1990's and if asked, I would bet many do not care as much about the world of iPhones, XBoxes, PS3's, Wii's, LeopardOS and VistaOS, as they do about their Amiga(s).  That is why they are here every day and night and not somewhere else, like MS.com, or Apple.com. :-D

[uncharted]

bloodline wrote:

A Inc going under can only be a good thing... But hey why don't we forget about tainted code and propriatory operating systems and start a community based open source AmigaOS, that the community could then "own" free of any dodgy companies, legal issues and expensive hardware... Woe, woe and thrice woe, if only such a project existed... If only something like that had been started 10 years ago... Sigh... If only...

...AROS had anything remotely resembling a direction or plan, perhaps something may of happened.

Curse those to idiots who screwed things up for wanting to actually run Amiga software on their new operating systems. (if I was feeling evil, I'd say any software)

MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 stole all the mindshare, because they had a plan for the future, and most importantly, they worked.

[Piru]

This question of MorphOS legality seems to pop up from time to time. Here's some interesting Amiga Inc interview:

29 July, 2002

I would start this interview, by asking if you see at MorphOS as a
illegal product?

Amiga INC. writes:

Our position is that the elements of MorphOS which allow it to
provide AmigaOS compatability have been illegally derived. These
either need to be removed or a licence obtained for them. I am afraid
I cannot say more than that due to advice from our lawyers.


Monday, April 29, 2002, 11:10:22 PM, I asked:

And finally...

But you should stop doing this.. Why cant Amiga go for the future,
show that you are strong? I know this is a marked {sic. perhaps he
meant to type "market". Brad} strategy to somewhat push MorphOS out.
Its like Lindows for the PC marked. Its a competitor to Windows, but
also RUN's Windows programs. You should start to think like an Amiga
user Bill. If you have full believe in your work, then drop the case
and go further. We all know you should have the right to use Amiga,
but MorphOS aint using Amigas name. I want both products on the
marked, it will be a colourfull marked and thats what we want, not
another Commodore keeping all secret and kinda forget what the
userbase want. Please clear things out for me?

Amiga INC. writes:

You do not understand the legal implications of what you say.
Whatever the merits or otherwise of MorphOS, they used illegally
obtained AmigaOS source code to develop their product. If Amiga Inc
does not defend that code, then we can lose all rights to it. We have
no choice BUT to prosecute anyone who dares to make use of Amiga code.

The MorphOS team knows this and has spent the last six months or so
trying to remove any code they have which was derived from AmigaOS.
However, our attorneys already have a copy of a MorphOS release where
via disassembly, you can prove that they did use the same source
routines as were in the AmigaOS source code that they had.

(from http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2002-09-00005-EN.html)

MorphOS Team never heard a beep from Amiga Inc. I can only assume their lawyers gave them more good advice, this time about idle threats.

(And lets not even get into the fact that Amiga Inc would rather sue their own partner than the competition...)

[uncharted]

@Piru

That still does not answer the question does it?