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Author Topic: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way  (Read 8998 times)

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Offline Ratte

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Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2014, 09:29:40 PM »
Quote from: olsen;779432
I believe that Hyperion owns these rights, as a result of the lawsuit between Amiga, Inc. and Hyperion.


Did AmigaInc. ever owned the rights?
I thought, they only owned the brand.

As a sideeffect, the rights and patents are still at escom (acquired by gateway, acquired by acer).
 

guest11527

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Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2014, 09:48:31 PM »
Quote from: Ratte;779426
isn´t layers.library v45 partially based on commodore-sources ?

It most definitely is. Actually, it is a version that is half-way between the 3.1 V40 release and the version in AOS 4.x. The big difference is here, however, that I approached the owner (or at least, the owner "to the best of my knowledge" - what else can you say these days) and asked specifically whether they would be ok with publication. IOW, I tried to back up myself as much as possible to avoid any conflict to begin with.  

As for other components, i.e. the Shell, it was part of the contract with H&P what will happen with the copyright after two years, and I'm still trying to ensure that those that can apply these patches have at least the 3.9 version - whether legit or not I cannot verify, of course.

This is pretty much why I said in the beginning - there is probably no problem if Cosmos would just communicate better and would have just *asked*. The worst thing that could possibly happen is a "No". But the current way of acting makes the situation actually worse, not better. It creates a diverse universe of some "almost but not quite" AmigaOs components with slight incompatibilities and no ensured "software contract" that everything fits together as it should.  

What I would really prefer would be a somewhat more coordinated activity, as in a project (let it be for paid or unpaid for developers) to create a framework where we can ensure that all components really work well together. That's currently not possible, and it's even less possible with people that cannot simply "play team". I'm trying to ensure that Olaf gets my updates, and that the functions for "layers" are in sync with AOS 4.x such that we don't create branches as far as possible.  

Yes, it means making compromises, and it requires a somewhat different development style - and a massively different communication style. If you observe my rather "rough tone" here then that's because I'm personally *p&ss@d" by the amount of unprofessionalism that rather *prevents* than *supports* any coordinated activity. It simply doesn't work like this. It is damaging AmigaOs rather than moving anything foreward.

There isn't much of any type of project management for the "old" classic systems, and it would be so badly needed. It's part of the lack of responsibility of the owners to take these systems serious, most likely based on a return-of-investment reasoning. If the community ever wants to be taken serious, namely that such an investment might possibly worth it, then we should act more professional as a group and not as a collection of freaks (not excluding myself here).
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2014, 01:15:55 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;779440
It most definitely is. Actually, it is a version that is half-way between the 3.1 V40 release and the version in AOS 4.x. The big difference is here, however, that I approached the owner (or at least, the owner "to the best of my knowledge" - what else can you say these days) and asked specifically whether they would be ok with publication. IOW, I tried to back up myself as much as possible to avoid any conflict to begin with.  

As for other components, i.e. the Shell, it was part of the contract with H&P what will happen with the copyright after two years, and I'm still trying to ensure that those that can apply these patches have at least the 3.9 version - whether legit or not I cannot verify, of course.

This is pretty much why I said in the beginning - there is probably no problem if Cosmos would just communicate better and would have just *asked*. The worst thing that could possibly happen is a "No". But the current way of acting makes the situation actually worse, not better. It creates a diverse universe of some "almost but not quite" AmigaOs components with slight incompatibilities and no ensured "software contract" that everything fits together as it should.  

What I would really prefer would be a somewhat more coordinated activity, as in a project (let it be for paid or unpaid for developers) to create a framework where we can ensure that all components really work well together. That's currently not possible, and it's even less possible with people that cannot simply "play team". I'm trying to ensure that Olaf gets my updates, and that the functions for "layers" are in sync with AOS 4.x such that we don't create branches as far as possible.  

Yes, it means making compromises, and it requires a somewhat different development style - and a massively different communication style. If you observe my rather "rough tone" here then that's because I'm personally *p&ss@d" by the amount of unprofessionalism that rather *prevents* than *supports* any coordinated activity. It simply doesn't work like this. It is damaging AmigaOs rather than moving anything foreward.

There isn't much of any type of project management for the "old" classic systems, and it would be so badly needed. It's part of the lack of responsibility of the owners to take these systems serious, most likely based on a return-of-investment reasoning. If the community ever wants to be taken serious, namely that such an investment might possibly worth it, then we should act more professional as a group and not as a collection of freaks (not excluding myself here).


"What I would really prefer would be a somewhat more coordinated activity"

- well, yes it would be desired, but as you see it cant be achieved with a content none can ensure, whom it belongs to. because as soon as some entity appears out of nowhere and claims the rights to the material you are working on (you will likely not able to verify or contradict these claims, and you will have no money, motivation and patience to investigate it and enforce your position) you and your well coordinated project are a goner. you "tried to cover your back" "to the best of your knowledge", but chances are that your knowledge, even if certainly greater than mine, is not enough. and in that case everything that distinguishes you from cosmos here is your good will to play along the legal constraints, while a serious risk is that your actions can be any time questioned as illegal, exactly same as his.

amiga legacy is very uncertain contaminated ground, and apparently that cant be changed. so, if there is a major task for the comunity to unite upon (if it wants to ensure the seriousness and legality of what it is doing, that is) is to break free of this legacy while carrying over the concepts and making them openly available while ensuring this openness applying appropriate licenses. im sure you know what i am talking about.
 

Offline olsen

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2014, 07:13:41 AM »
Quote from: Ratte;779438
Did AmigaInc. ever owned the rights?
I thought, they only owned the brand.
I'm sorry, this is not my field of expertise. I could only speculate that if a product is sold which requires the assent of the brand owner, then that assent must have been given. Whoever owns the brands and the trademarks must be public information, and is likely available online. I wouldn't where to start looking, though.

Quote

As a sideeffect, the rights and patents are still at escom (acquired by gateway, acquired by acer).
It's been more than 20 years since Commodore folded. Assuming that Commodore was granted patents in that final year, then these patents have likely expired by now.

Gateway was said to have bought the Commodore patents along with the other assets because it allowed them to save money on patent licensing.

How the Amiga's keyboard operates, and how it communicates with the main computer was covered by patents. The IBM PC design was covered by patents (probably still is), and if you wanted to build and sell an IBM PC compatible machine, you needed to pay IBM license fees. That was back when IBM was still building these machines. Funny thing, the way the 1990'ies incarnation of the IBM PC keyboard was connected to the main computer was covered by the Commodore patent for the Amiga keyboard. Instead of having IBM pay Commodore for the use of the patent, the companies traded licenses, and thus saved production costs. Gateway did the same thing as Commodore did.

That Amiga keyboard patent must have been filed in the 1980'ies when the Amiga was new. Which probably means that it has expired around 2005-2006.

There is likely no patent left Commodore used to control which is still valid today. Note that this is a layman's opinion and if you want to be certain, you should call upon an expert in this field.
 

Offline HyAmi

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Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2014, 09:02:12 AM »
When I read this thread, there are two main issues discussed over and over again, which are basically
1) We want to enhance the Amiga OS (3.1 or 3.9 or whatever)
2) There are legal issues with modifying Amiga OS
and as a derivative of the first point there's Thomas Richters wish to accomplish enhancements in a cooperative/coordinated/project way (which seems a very valid argument to me by the way)

"We" is already difficult in this. Just see the different approaches of Cosmos and Thomas. But could "we" (the community) negotiate the rights to enhance our beloved OS?
"We" could be defined by the different forum members of the different Amiga sites as a start. As I start to think of it, it sounds a bit like democracy to me.... mmm, scary.

Anyway, my point is that I would like to see the Amiga OS evolve. And I'd prefer the way in which we have more happy faces and that keeps the community together. Please keep talking with each other.
 

Offline 7valleys

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Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2014, 06:17:54 PM »
The problem is he's not just bending copyright, he's twisting it into gordian knots.
 

Offline johnklos

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Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2014, 08:26:30 PM »
This is less of an issue than most people are making it out to be. Put simply, we all own Commodore hardware. We have paid for Kickstart, for the OS, et cetera. Many of us have paid for updated ROMs, too.

It may be a nit to pick, but there's really little difference between Cosmos saying, "Take your Kickstart file and apply these patches", which nobody can ever possibly say is wrong, versus actually providing the Kickstart file with those patches, which is debatable, but only slightly. I don't know anything about French copyright law, but I do know that US copyright law isn't the same as French copyright law and shouldn't be assumes to be the same.

So are there people out there who don't legitimately own an Amiga who might make use of this updated Kickstart? Certainly. However, Cosmos making it available is not going to make it any more or any less accessible to those who wish to use it illegitimately. They'll get it no matter what.
 

Offline kolla

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2014, 09:56:47 PM »
Anyone willing to do 68000 KingCON ROMable? The things I want in kickstart are the things I want available when booting to shell without startup-sequence.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Brian

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Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2014, 10:09:48 PM »
I have KS3.1, I have AmigaOS3.9 CD... any chance we could make a legal 3.9ROM using a custom script and freely distributed software that would RIP ROM/OS files that I already have and use with freely distributed updates and patches to patch these files I have into a the ROM file?

If any updatearchive need the be distributed in full have the full archive in a special "distributions folder" aswell as the specific files needed or extract only the needed files with the script and everyone would be happy.

Offline XDelusion

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Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2014, 10:44:46 PM »
WOuld it be possible to integrate CF card drivers somehow? I.E. a way to be able to detect and read CF cards right off the bat without requiring extras software on your boot disk and what not?
Earth has a lot of things other folks might want... like the whole planet. And maybe these folks would like a few changes made, like more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and room for their way of life. - William S. Burroughs
 

Offline psxphill

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #84 on: December 10, 2014, 11:44:45 PM »
Quote from: johnklos;779518
It may be a nit to pick, but there's really little difference between Cosmos saying, "Take your Kickstart file and apply these patches", which nobody can ever possibly say is wrong, versus actually providing the Kickstart file with those patches, which is debatable, but only slightly. I don't know anything about French copyright law, but I do know that US copyright law isn't the same as French copyright law and shouldn't be assumes to be the same.

Not the same, but still seems illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DADVSI#Sharing_of_copyrighted_works_over_peer-to-peer_networks

There are certainly bigger fish to fry though. Although with TPB down the amount of piracy has dropped considerably, which might put you on the radar.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 12:00:51 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2014, 01:35:55 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;779541
Not the same, but still seems illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DADVSI#Sharing_of_copyrighted_works_over_peer-to-peer_networks

There are certainly bigger fish to fry though. Although with TPB down the amount of piracy has dropped considerably, which might put you on the radar.


TPB is no longer down ;)

http://thepiratebay.cr/
 

Offline psxphill

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2014, 01:41:31 AM »
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2014, 05:23:11 AM »
@psxphill

Thanks, I didn´t know :)
 

Offline olsen

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2014, 10:22:28 AM »
Quote from: kolla;779531
Anyone willing to do 68000 KingCON ROMable? The things I want in kickstart are the things I want available when booting to shell without startup-sequence.
I do not know if this applies to KingCON, but not everything is fit for inclusion in a ROM. The libraries, devices, file systems and handlers in the ROM (obviously) cannot modify static data or code. However, if such software is loaded from disk then there are no such restrictions. Stranger still, the respective author may not even realize that his software modifies data intended to be read-only (buffer overflows, subtle bugs, etc.), and that his software stops working correctly if that data cannot be modified.

I take it that Cosmos has a solution for that problem. He mentioned that he uses compression to fit more components into ROM. This implies that he can unpack components into RAM as part of the bootstrapping process. Once those components are in RAM they are no longer restricted by the constraints of read-only memory.

So, maybe KingCON can fit into ROM after all, unchanged.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 10:32:19 AM by olsen »
 

Offline kolla

Re: New Kickstart 3.9.1 68k on the way
« Reply #89 from previous page: December 11, 2014, 10:55:55 AM »
KingCON has been ROMable for quite some time, but only for 020+.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS