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AuthorTopic: aros fork?  (Read 3316 times)

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Offline graincloud

aros fork?
« on: February 05, 2008, 11:45:09 PM »
hi everybody, i just registered-
i'm just a very-ex-amiga user (i quit in 96) who never gave up browsing amiga sites, and in the last half year, with all the amiga legal issues going on and aros making big news i started checking amiga related stuff daily, in the last weeks mainly aros stuff..

so i was wondering why there is no discussion going on on this forum sbout the recent posts on rob norris blog--
http://cataclysm.cx/2008/02/01/i-dont-want-your-money-i-just-want-your-love/

this might be some important moment in aros history, and might be very interesting for all amiga folk out there who want a new os but have no possibility in running os4 or morphos.

i think aros deserves some attention, at least it caught mine, and made me sign up here, even though i read this site nearly every day i never did that before. it would just be great to have some opportunity to play with some amiga-like os again. i am happy with using my mac for getting all my work done, but i never forgot my amiga, which was my first machine. it had some strange mystical kind of energy field around it that i never encountered again since... i miss that.
cheers
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: aros fork?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2008, 11:52:40 PM »
I guess AROS guys don't like to hang their dirty laundry in public :-)

No, seriously it's a good question... Rob has raised some really good points... mostly that AROS has no clear direction.. now is a good time to decide what we want from AROS... the floor is open...

Offline graincloud

Re: aros fork?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2008, 12:05:06 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
I guess AROS guys don't like to hang their dirty laundry in public :-)

No, seriously it's a good question... Rob has raised some really good points... mostly that AROS has no clear direction.. now is a good time to decide what we want from AROS... the floor is open...


hmm i didn't think of that... but understandable- the community should sort things out internally maybe.

anyway i think it is not a good idea to further split up an already fragmented community - but i think rob is absolutely right. i am not a programmer (coming from electronic music and installation art, thus not really able to really contribute) but i'd really like to see this project grow. and grow on the basis of competitive technology.
good luck to the aros developers!
 

Offline persia

Re: aros fork?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2008, 12:19:56 AM »
And here it is, does AROS replicate a seriously out of date operating system to make the retro crowd happy or does AROS take the Amiga legacy into the 21st Century at the cost of backwards compatibility.  This is the choice Apple and Microsoft faced.  So what is AROS?  This is the €43,723.20 question.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: aros fork?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2008, 12:35:51 AM »
for £32,576.55 I'm gonna answer; drag the legacy kicking and screaming into the 21st Century :-)

Offline coldfish

Re: aros fork?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2008, 06:52:32 AM »
Aros with an up to date web browser and native (or even a good port of) UAE is all I'd want in a hobby OS.  A combo' of old and new.

 

Offline weirdami

typo fun
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2008, 07:02:24 AM »
Quote
aros fork?


A fork replacement utensil?
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Offline graincloud

Re: typo fun
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2008, 08:40:36 AM »
yeah with integrated virtual knife and plate protection
 :-P
 

Offline monami

Re: typo fun
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2008, 10:37:42 AM »
i don't know what it is with the lay out of his web page but i have never wanted to read it...
i will bless them that bless you. i will curse them that curse you. gods promise to his chosen people the jews.
 

Offline weirdami

Re: typo fun
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2008, 10:40:57 AM »
@monami

You'll need to download the English language pack.
----
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Offline dammy

Re: aros fork?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2008, 10:41:40 AM »
AROS1 will pretty much continue on as is for 3.1 API as it's main goal.  AROS2 OTOH, maybe a major break away with it's own API and let EAUE integration take care of the orginal AOS apps.  Biggest issue to be solved with AROS2 is proper management of AROS2 developement.  I suppose that further clarifiaction will happen sometime this summer.  Year later then I would have liked, but such as life.

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Offline Crumb

Re: aros fork?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2008, 11:04:06 AM »
@bloodline

Quote
for £32,576.55 I'm gonna answer; drag the legacy kicking and screaming into the 21st Century


What have you been smoking??? If you aren't interested in legacy stuff then why base all your work in an outdated OS3.x API? That lacks any sense since almost everything related to the OS3.x API should be thrown to the trashcan. Message-passing? rubbish. Memory allocation? rubbish. Multiuser capabilities? rubbish... and the list would be long

What you want is not AROS. What you want is an open source OS that gives you an amiga-like feeling (maybe using a directory structure like AmigaOS and maybe using a similiar GUI) . That is what you are looking for, not AmigaOS.

AmigaOS *is* a system based in that crap and outdated API. If you get rid of it you'll lose source code compatility and you'll be able to label it whatever way you like, but that won't have nothing in common with amiga with the exception of perhaps a similar GUI.


Quite frankly, if what you want is killing not just binary but also source code compatibility you'd better search a new OS because you are wasting time with AROS. If you killed amiga source code compatibility it will be anything but amiga-like.

I don't know why some people has some extrange fixation with the word "amiga" and they seem to want to see some kind of new OS as "amiga next gen os". Amiga API is outdated. Live with it. If you change the API it won't have anything in common with amiga, just like AmigaDE/Anywhere/Whatever hasn't anything in common with the old amigaos and won't attract my attention. Just like OSX isn't macos and is just a different OS (based on unix) with a MacOS sandbox launcher.

If you want that you could use an amiga-like skin on WinXP/OSX/Linux/Zeta, run UAE and launch your adfs with a launcher and live happy calling it "next gen amiga".

If you were really interested in a next gen OS (inspired on AmigaOS just like BeOS) you would start from scratch, not building it over an old API that just will cause you problems.

Just like people don't build castles on marshes (with the exception of the monty phytons) you shouldn't build a "new OS" on top of an outdated API and OS.

That's the same reason Be Inc didn't build BeOS using CPM as a basis.
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Offline Crumb

Re: aros fork?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2008, 11:19:16 AM »
@dammy

IMHO a fork is mandatory.

A new OS shouldn't have to deal with legacy problems caused by the old 3.x API.

IMHO there's no sense in calling the new effort AROS since it won't have anything related to the original effort. It won't be a v2.x version since it would be totally incompatible and probably won't reuse much code so it will be a total rewrite.

It would be in the same league as other kernels and OSes and probably could take advantage of code written for POSIX platforms.

Being "POSIX" compatible would be a good goal.
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: Club de Usuarios de Amiga de Zaragoza (CUAZ)
 

Offline Einstein

Re: aros fork?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2008, 01:21:38 PM »
Quote

Crumb wrote:

Quite frankly, if what you want is killing not just binary but also source code compatibility you'd better search a new OS because you are wasting time with AROS.


AROS does *not have* binary compaibility, but when it does (E-UAE) then that can be put on top of the new system, just like it could be put on top of any modern OS if you really wanted to. Please don't start with your usual "integrated (E-)UAE will suck because it's nothing like the emulation layers of MOS/OS4 etc etc", pesonally I don't need anything that integrated, besides I will not use any potential new OS on anything but x86 in the next decade, and if so it might not be big-endian anyway.


Quote
If you killed amiga source code compatibility it will be anything but amiga-like.


What is amiga like ? to me it is the GUI, the simplicity in the directory structure, the RAM: ENV: and ENVARC:, the preferences "use" vs "save" system (that relies on the previous two), etc, not because I'm nostalgic, well I am, to a *restricted* level, but because they are well enough done. if I cannot adapt to new (and better) API then I might as well throw myself into the trashcan ;)

Quote
I don't know why some people has some extrange fixation with the word "amiga" and they seem to want to see some kind of new OS as "amiga next gen os".


Actually in case Rob forks it, he will not include anything "amiga" in it's name, he made that clear. And btw, you contradict your self here, look below (look for "LOOK HERE").

Quote
Amiga API is outdated. Live with it.
I wont ;)


Quote
If you change the API it won't have anything in common with amiga, just like AmigaDE/Anywhere/Whatever hasn't anything in common with the old amigaos and won't attract my attention.


There's MOS, OS4, and AROS.. but wait, AROS is not "amiga" according to many amiga zealots anyway.


Quote
Just like OSX isn't macos and is just a different OS (based on unix) with a MacOS sandbox launcher.


Users don't care crap about the internals, programmers might, *intelligent* programmers will not.

LOOK HERE
Quote
If you want that you could use an amiga-like skin on WinXP/OSX/Linux/Zeta, run UAE and launch your adfs with a launcher and live happy calling it "next gen amiga".


I see, if one breaks backwards compatibilty at soure/binary level then it's "anything but amiga-like" (quoting you from above), yet, somehow magically, a different *premade* OS *is* !

Quote
If you were really interested in a next gen OS (inspired on AmigaOS just like BeOS) you would start from scratch, not building it over an old API that just will cause you problems.
Just like people don't build castles on marshes (with the exception of the monty phytons) you shouldn't build a "new OS" on top of an outdated API and OS.

That's the same reason Be Inc didn't build BeOS using CPM as a basis.


Rob made clear that amiga "inspired" is his goal (not to exclude inspiration/code from other OSs though), but if you happen to *know* that *nothing* in the old API *implementation* can be reused (simetimes with modification) than why don't you just point it to him with *detail*, you seem to care alot i mean.
I have spoken !
 

Offline Einstein

Re: aros fork?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2008, 01:23:58 PM »
Quote

Crumb wrote:

IMHO a fork is mandatory.

A new OS shouldn't have to deal with legacy problems caused by the old 3.x API.

IMHO there's no sense in calling the new effort AROS since it won't have anything related to the original effort. It won't be a v2.x version since it would be totally incompatible and probably won't reuse much code so it will be a total rewrite.

It would be in the same league as other kernels and OSes and probably could take advantage of code written for POSIX platforms.

Being "POSIX" compatible would be a good goal.


This sounded more sensible, gotta say your previous post left me  :crazy:
I have spoken !