WinUAE exposing how crappy Windows is

[AmigaHeretic]

All search algorithms get slower as the number of items to search increases. O(log n) is typical for tree search. A hundred fold increase in N does not equate to a hundred fold increase in time taken.

No, you're right, it would increase at 'log n'.  How many keys are in an actually registry?  I don't know that I've seen a way to count them.  You can figure out how many bytes all your hives are and usually that is in 10's or 100's or millions of bytes.

How often are the hives being searched? How often is actually modifying keys and sorting?

Searching through a flat file database almost certainly faster than trawling through a directory tree to find an environment variable...

If we are talking ENV: vs registry, there are maybe 50 files in my registry?  vs millions of entries in my reg?

[Karlos]

If we are talking ENV: vs registry, there are maybe 50 files in my registry?  vs millions of entries in my reg?

Sure, there are millions... Thousands, perhaps. Millions? Mope. Unless you've installed and removed new software every other day for the last 10 years and never once cleaned out the registry

Looking up a file on disk is not quicker than traversing a tree structure in memory. Absolutely no way.

You can write code to prove this to yourself, if you wish.

Put N named variables into N files in a directory and write a function that, given the name as a string, opens the file and retrieves the value. Time how long it takes to retrieve any named value.

Now, write code that puts the same N values into a trie structure and serializes it into a file. This is your "registry" file.

Now write a function that loads said file and rebuilds said trie file on first access and looks up your names variable and time how long it takes to retrieve any named value.

The only time it will ever be slower than the first method is the first time, when the trie data must be rebuilt in memory.

Every subsequent access will be orders of magnitude faster than asking the filesystem to open a file and retrieve the contents.

I know this, because I've had to write code that relies on such data structures.

I'm not defending MS here but people assume that because MS implement the registry in a somewhat stupid way (that being it never compacts after keys are removed) that the concept of a registry is a stupid idea altogether. It isn't.

[warpdesign]

@Amiduffer: how do you remove (completely I mean) an MUI program that will have installed some MCC classes ?

No, don't tell me you'll find some undeleted items in MUI:libs after having deleted the program's directory...

Seeing the mess MUI became, the settings that are saved sometimes in env: sometimes in envarc:, with no default time for settings: sometimes it's binary, sometimes it's text,... I don't think you can point the Windows registry.

There are nice things about the Amiga, and bad things about Windows. But the registry surely isn't that bad. Even Linux uses some kind of DataBase for APT for example... The implementation may no be that good, but the registry idea isn't a bad idea.

[psxphill]

I what way do you mean? The reg files are just one big .txt file basically. That is why it's slower for the OS to search through the bigger it gets.
 
Programs like "regedit" load the text file and arrange it so it looks like it's arranged more like your typical directory structure, but it's got no real directory structure of course.

You've got completely the wrong idea about how it works. You need to go and read up more before you can make informed arguments.

[the_leander]

There are nice things about the Amiga, and bad things about Windows. But the registry surely isn't that bad. Even Linux uses some kind of DataBase for APT for example... The implementation may no be that good, but the registry idea isn't a bad idea.

Just about any remotely modern desktop or server OS you care to point at will have some form of database type system to handle the sorts of things that windows registry does.

As you and others state, having such a system isn't an inherently bad thing, even if a given example has some weaknesses.

--edit--

Also:

MUI

/thread.

[AmigaHeretic]

You've got completely the wrong idea about how it works. You need to go and read up more before you can make informed arguments.

I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.

If you really have that solution please post it here.

[the_leander]

I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.

It does search at the same speed. Over a larger number of entries. Unless you do something really, really stupid.

The registry isn't a text file. It is a database file, which is a tree.

The time it takes will obviously increase as the database gets larger, but , but it is far quicker than going through individual text and binary files and that speed difference will only become more apparent as the number of text/binary files increases.

[stefcep2]

All very interesting.  Seems to me whilst the registry is a necessary thing, its negative effects on system performance is what concerns users.

There's no doubt the more stuff you install in Windows, the longer the boot time, even if none of the installed executables are executed at boot time.  And then the executables themselves take longer to start.  If you then uninstall the executables, your boot time or applications start up times don't improve.  Why is that?

On Amiga, the mere act of installing an app doesn't appreciably increase boot time, in my experience.  Ofcourse if that app RUNS at boot time, boot time will increase.  But just installing it and running it once doesn't make much difference to the boot time afterwards, nor does it affect the start up time of other apps.  

If I install an app in AmigaOS, then uninstall it, and it leaves debris behind its relatively simple to identify which debris belonged to that app, as most of the time files are written to sensibly-named OS directories or the user-startup text files, usually an assign:, and have sensible names. And apart form taking up miniscule amounts of hard drive space, I could leave them there without suffering appreciably diminished OS performance.  

Conversely, I wouldn't even think about deleting any system files from Windows or Linux.

[stefcep2]

@Amiduffer: how do you remove (completely I mean) an MUI program that will have installed some MCC classes ?

No, don't tell me you'll find some undeleted items in MUI:libs after having deleted the program's directory...

Seeing the mess MUI became, the settings that are saved sometimes in env: sometimes in envarc:, with no default time for settings: sometimes it's binary, sometimes it's text,... I don't think you can point the Windows registry.

The VAST majority of amiga software that i have installed on my hard drive may add assign to user startup. Some may add something in Libs, Devs, or L or C, env or envarc. If they do, then these files have sensible names that identify which app installed them.  

Using MUI as an example, if the equivalent software ie a GUI replacement system, were installed for Windows or Linux-where people do run KDE and Gnome- what would be more difficult to do:  finding and deleting MUI debris, or finding and deleting the equivalent in Windows or Linux?

[LoadWB]

On Amiga, the mere act of installing an app doesn't appreciably increase boot time, in my experience.  Ofcourse if that app RUNS at boot time, boot time will increase.  But just installing it and running it once doesn't make much difference to the boot time afterwards, nor does it affect the start up time of other apps.

Yes and no.  I make Assign and a few other commands resident at boot time because of the obscene number of assignments which happen throughout the boot due to the types and number of programs I have installed.

Part of the problem with Windows is the Internet cache.  Its database is ALWAYS active, so if you have a full and cluttered Internet cache, which is 10% (or 20%, I cannot recall which) of your hard drive by default, that is quite a lot of space.  24GB for a 120GB hard drive at 20%, and so on.

Then there is Windows Search, which should be uninstalled if you have it.  I actually caught it preventing programs from being installed.  Seriously, Microsoft?  I will say this about Microsoft, they cannot do search, never have and never will.  Back in the day when their support site used Inktomia for searching it worked and worked WELL.  Then Microsoft programmed their own search and it cannot find crap.  Outlook search cannot find crap.  I use Google to search Microsoft's KBAs now.  Ridiculous.

[AmigaHeretic]

The time it takes will obviously increase as the database gets larger

That's was my only point.  

As I said I don't have a better solution than for Windows registry.


EDIT:
My original posts were also suggesting that it is hard for a human to run the registry.  The problem is the registry is powerful. One issue I see is clutter/speed.  There are many other issues with the registry, like a program(virus) can change single entry in a key and you can no longer run any exe's, can't run your AntiVirus, etc...

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\exefile\shell\open\command

Changing this value: "%1" %*

How many people have formated there systems becaue a virus changes that single key?  Easily a decade later there that key sits in Win7 still.  

http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php?topic=107089.0

[the_leander]

Using MUI as an example, if the equivalent software ie a GUI replacement system, were installed for Windows or Linux-where people do run KDE and Gnome- what would be more difficult to do:  finding and deleting MUI debris, or finding and deleting the equivalent in Windows or Linux?

Assuming that the person performing this task was as conversant with the inner workings of both OS's, it would be fairly even.

Difference is that it takes a lot longer to get as knowledgeable with Linux than a relatively simple OS like AmigaOS.

[psxphill]

I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.
 
If you really have that solution please post it here.

Solution to what? That the more data you have the longer it takes to search it? Same goes for ENV: etc. If you could solve that problem then oracle and sybase would not have a business.
 
Windows is more complex than AmigaOS because it allows you to do more. If you're happy with AmigaOS for everything then use that. I stopped around ten years ago because it was the right time for me to move over to Windows XP. Windows 95 was similarish in terms of stability and ease of use to AmigaOS, but it didn't warrant me to spend out that much money.
 
I don't want to diss AmigaOS but it has more flaws than recent versions of Windows, even if some of the concepts are nice & haven't made it onto any other operating system.
 
FWIW I was using my a500 last night, but retro games and demos are like classic cars. Nice to own and run at the weekend, but not an every day thing.

[bernd_afa]

I was using diskmaster with WinUAE last night on my Win7 Toshiba Satellite, and just for kicks, I started to poke around DH4: which is your windows "partition". Disturbingly, I started to run across programs and demos that I thought I had erased a while ago. 8( WTH! Are you telling me, that this "modern" operating system, and I use that term loosely, if you tell it to un-install a program, that it leaves all sorts of leftover crap?

I know that nothing ever gets really and truly "erased" from a harddrive without it physically being destroyed, but, this is rediculous! Geez. If I didn't need this digitizing program, I would have happily ditched Windows.

windows 7 and vista have a backup feature(more as the trashcan).it use some diskspace and all you delete come to here.if there is not enough room for new delete, then old is delete.

[Karlos]

I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.

If you really have that solution please post it here.

It's a question of how much longer it takes. Searching a properly configured tree is at worst O(log N) and can do better. However, that only describes the general shape of the curve. The fact is that tree searches are fast. A search is more dependent on the length of the key than it is the number of entries in the tree.

As part of my previous job, I wrote a billing system for a voice system. In order to work out what basic pricing plan was required for a given call, you had to look up the number. Not all of it, but find the longest matching prefix and use whatever pricing code it pointed to.

We had a database with literally hundreds of thousands of number prefixes in it that each mapped to info/price data. Prefixes could be as long as an entire phone number, but typically varied from just 2 digits up to 10 or so.

The code loaded these into a trie, where you had a node structure in which there were up to 10 child nodes (one per digit) and a pointer to a data record (if any) for the current node.

Take a number, and pointing at the root of the trie, for each successive digit, attempt to get the next child node, until you get to a leaf node. Along the way, collect any data record entries so that you can build a breakdown of the number (eg UK National / Manchester / Rusholme).

Despite having around a million nodes in the trie, searching it was lighting fast. You exhaust the search as soon as you hit a leaf node, so your number might be 14 digits, but your longest match might be found after just 6.

This code (written in straight C++) was capable of performing over 15 million such lookups a second on the machine. The actual application, which needed to process data from several database tables and output them to another was entirely IO bound in the end.

In short, searching a tree structure is not slow.

[AmigaHeretic]

Windows is more complex than AmigaOS because it allows you to do more. If you're happy with AmigaOS for everything then use that.

You are responding to me, but it feels like you are talking to yourself.  

I never said that I don't like Windows.  I never said I even use Amiga OS anymore.

I probably use Windows 98% of the time.  The other 2% is AROS.

I clearly stated twice that I don't have a better solution to the registry than MS does.


Failing that the registry does suck.  You want to argue about ENV: well that was the whole point of the original poster.  If I have program I just delete the folder.  Everything is gone.  It's not that easy on Windows.  If I want to delete all the "settings" I go into ENV: and delete a "single" file named "ThisProgsSettings".  On Windows this isn't even possible for most programs.  

Amiga less clutter, Windows more clutter.  There is little doubt about that.  


As far a real life performance with a crap filled registry?  It is slower.  Do a Google search.  There is an entire industry around speeding up, cleaning up, repairing the registry.   If it so fast to search no matter the clutter and conditions than why in the real world does it slow down your machine so much?