Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Xanxi on June 04, 2012, 04:00:12 PM
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Hi.
As the petition is closed since the 31th of May, i have mailed Jens Schoenfeld with the link to the signatures.
Here is his answer, that i am allowed to quote:
Hi,
I learned about this petition just now, and I have to say that it's way out of line to ask for this stuff for free.
I've paid good money for these rights in order to let the Apollo boards rest in peace. I will not let go of any code or schematics, because these boards make an Amiga unstable. They are the prime cause for Amigans leaving the market: An unstable Amiga is no fun, and hardly anyone will accept that it's the Apollo card causing the trouble. If you're interested, I can dig up one of the many explanations that I have posted online and in private eMails, so you can post that in the amiga.org thread (you know I'm not there any more).
That said, I'm willing to change my policy if serious money is involved. Here's the model:
- I'll change my policy from "if you have an Apollo, it's your choice and if it works, fine", to the new policy: No support for any Apollo-equipped Amiga whatsoever". This includes any and all products, old and new.
- I'll sell MACH131 chips programmed for Apollo 1260 and Eprom chips with the required code, combined for 150,- EUR each, plus shipping. This price does not guarantee anything, just proper function of the MACH131 in a system with no promises of any improvement over the MACH130 that people had before. Should the MACH131 not work as expected, I'll replace it once. Should the replacement still not work, I will refund the chip for 4,- EUR. The remaining 144,- EUR have been paid for the code license in the Eprom.
- once 267 chip-upgrades are sold (40k EUR barrier crossed), I will release the jedec file of the MACH131 of the Apollo 1260 for non-commercial use. Should anyone start offering MACH131 for more than 4,- EUR each, I will go after him. The jedec file of the MACH210 and schematics will remain closed.
ciao,
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Jens Schönfeld
And then another answer:
If the cards work fine for you, good for you. However, having insight into the inner workings, I know that the MACH chips are operated way out of their specifications. To be more specific, the design is full of syncronous flipflops with async set/clear equations, which are not specified to work at these high frequencies. As a result, the whole design may or may not work, depending factors that nobody can influence.
And yes, please quote me, but please quote whole eMails, not just single sentences.
so short,
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Jens Schönfeld
So here is the official position and not just a rumor to answer the 74 people who signed the petition.
I will let you make your own opinion.
Regards.
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An Amiga with no boards installed is unstable, so how is it that different?
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The only Apollo who is not super-stable is the A630@50 : all other models are fully ok
My Apollo 1260@105 is working perfectly since many months now and at a 'cold' temperature (about 58° without any fan on the 68060 rev6)...
Anyway, here some clever words from an old italian coder who left Amiga because of the zero cooperation between all the last Amiga actors :
"In our dying little community we have too many bad guys. Instead of helping one another to survive they are: proud, selfish, pathetic, attached to money, jackals, bellicose or childish !"
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An Amiga with no boards installed is unstable, so how is it that different?
:D
Actually, that's a better offer then I expected.
No support, but he's willing to sell Mach131s programmed with am eprom.
You guys didn't really expect the schematics or new production, did you?
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An Amiga with no boards installed is unstable, so how is it that different?
Crappy software and not the hardware, perhaps. I tend to rely upon people like Piru and Jens as authoritative in their specific realms, especially when given salient arguments for their positions.
Aside from that, when people spend a shytload of money on hardware, they expect it to work properly. I had an Apollo accelerator in my 4000D and it caused all sorts of problems with various other devices. Move to a WarpEngine then to my CyberStorm and neither one ever just crashed due to hardware and I cannot recall any incompatibilities I've had with either.
In any case, Jens owns the rights, he's spoken out numerous times on the issue, and I find nothing wrong with his position on the matter, irrespective of dreck anyone may boil up about him trying to kill a product to further his own.
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Good call from Jens.
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If there is any complaint to be made of Jens, its that he is perhaps too much of a perfectionist when it comes to his product...that and there aren't two of him (which would be handy, as one could hold down the day job while the other makes new and awesome designs).
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I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Schoenfeld these days. This decision surprises me.
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Basically, he doesn't want to warranty a product that is crap. Nothing wrong with that...however his investment was great and needs to be recouped if you truly want it.
EEPROM chips are about $4 blank individually... I recently bought a reader/burner for $85 and 10 blank 64k chips for $45 and have started reprogramming my car's ECM... I'd hate to sell my custom-tuned chip to someone else only to have them blow up their motor...
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Maybe he's just holding on to it out of spite after having buyer's remorse.
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Maybe he has made a throne out of them :)
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I don't see what the big deal is. Jens owns a business. Jens legally owns an intellectual property. Why should he give that up? He has every right to protect ownership of his property and do with it what he wishes.
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This is a pretty decent offer from Jens imho. You can't expect him to give away something for free he's paid for - and here's the offer to upgrade/replace the Machs on your Apollos.
You can't blame him for not wanting to take responsibility if he knows the design is flawed, can you? I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.
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I don't see what the big deal is. Jens owns a business. Jens legally owns an intellectual property. Why should he give that up? He has every right to protect ownership of his property and do with it what he wishes.
Yup.
Tell you guys a little parallel story...
Back ages ago (like...2003? 2004? Don't rightly recall...anyway...) I wanted to upgrade to a motherboard with PCI-e, specifically one I could run dual video cards in (at the time, 8800GTX cards which were top-of-the-line). However I am a budget PC building kind of guy on and off and I wanted a board I could put my single-core AMD Athlon XP 3000+ in and save some cash. I looked high and low and finally settled on an Epox motherboard that had dual PCIe and their own home-grown SLI solution ("GLI").
Now...my own fault for not doing my homework, but in the interim, nVidia had cornered the market on any kind of dual-card solution: if you wanted SLi, you bought an nVidia-supported (which back then meant Intel) board, period. GLi was clean-room engineered by Epox, so nVidia bought the technology and then promptly ****canned the design and wrote further drivers to not support SLi on that series board. I was crestfallen but within a few days, I found some hacked drivers created by a group of programmers that would work on ANY board with ANY nVidia card by misidentifying the chipset to the driver.
So that's what I used until I upgraded to my Asus board, dual core athlon, etc.
Was nVidia "right" to extend, embrace and exterminate? From a business standpoint, possibly. But ultimately it was their decision to do so. I found a work-around and went for it. I spread the word as best I could (but let's admit it, on the PC side of the world there couldn't have been too many people in my situation), kept using updated nVidia hardware, and until I upgraded a few years later, all was well. Coincidentally, by that point SLi solutions were "out of the barn" and nVidia had pretty much licensed it anyway!
But the point is, I never felt cheated or slighted or taken advantage of by nVidia. Had I not been able to use both cards, I'd have sold one, or bided my time until I got a new board, etc.
Jens is like nVidia in this: there's a product he wanted off the market and he spent his money to get it off the market. Out of his pocket. Not yours, not mine, he didn't hack someone's bank account to buy up the Apollo tech. And he's like the guys who wrote the altered drivers: he's offering a non-trivial method for people who want to keep using/trying that hardware. Personally? I think he's well in his rights. It isn't like he's writing drivers that screw up your hard drive (hi, Elbox! Yes you're still ****lords!) or posting threatening messages like "PAY ME FOR THIS HARDWARE OR I WILL DESTROY IT." (Hi, Hans Campbell! You're a ****lord, too!).
Jens makes great hardware, he supports it to the best of his ability*, the Amiga does not make him a great deal of money, so ultimately, yeah, he's doing the Amiga community a favor by building what he does.
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I called this the sensible course of action, but I did also sign the petition.
He's well within his rights, no doubt about it.
That said, it's a shame yet another piece of hardware is going to die off for lack of documentation.
I don't believe "buying it to keep it off the market for our own good", I'm sure it was buying it to jumpstart a new product and the design turned out to be crap.
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@ B00tDisk (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=880),
Actualy, the solution you mentioned was created by ULi (the chipset maker). I had an EPOX and an Asrock motherboard based on that.
And the neat thing was both PCIe slots were X16 (as opposed to SLi's X8 slots at the time).
But Nvidia quickly updated its drivers so the software patch that enabled this no longer worked.
Then Nvidia bought ULi outright (no doubt gaining some talented engineers, ULi Southbridges were very common on ATI motherboards before the SB600 was introduced).
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I really don't understand (probably because I'm not a HW expert), but, there's no real sense on all that for me. Let me try to make a parallel.
- Ford-T's had, back in early 20's, an upgrade kit for their engines.
- In the 70's, someone buy the rights and schematics for this upgrade.
- In the 90's someone asks this person to make those schematics public, once:
-- It's impossible to buy a new version of this kit
-- Designing a new upgrade from scracth (to a base of around 5k Ford-T owners and even less willing to upgrade it) would cost 1000x times more than the expected revenue
So, someone can explain me what exactly he's trying to protect? His investment? What other options he has? Die with the schematics to preserv the Ford-T image?
*How many persons signed the petition? Around 70? Let's ask for ~20 euros each and see if he accepts that.
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I don't believe "buying it to keep it off the market for our own good", I'm sure it was buying it to jumpstart a new product and the design turned out to be crap.
I dont believe that either. I mean, maybe it is part of the reason, but not the entire story.
I do believe it was basically that the Apollo´s design had something that Jens needed to learn/see how to implement in his own ACA accelerators, and also that by buying the design, he could prevent some kind of competition showing up.
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Wow. An online petition which actually had some sort of effect? Must be a first in the history of the internets.
Anyway, sounds like a very sensible proposal from Jens to me (I've never had an Apollo though).
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I never did get around to reading the petition...until just now.
Seeing Jens' reaction to the petition, I wouldn't blame him if he got very annoyed. Jens' statement about Apollo stability/reliability is spot on. On the other hand, all of the many pieces of hardware I have bought over the years made by Individual Computers or its partners have been rock-solid reliable and stable.
Personally, I own an Apollo 2030-25MHz w/64MB on it. I was never terribly impressed with either the:
- build quality (tin-plated CPU slot edge contacts rather than gold causes no end of trouble at that frequency)
- stability (the on-board Apollo SCSI controller was fast but died a couple months after I bought it and I had to buy an A2091+Guru ROM [thanks Ralph!] which works wonderfully)
But as a CHEAP basic bare-bones accelerator it worked well enough but I didn't really expect much out of the board for that price; I remember reading about many problems with the higher clocked version of the board though.
However in 1995-7(?) where weren't any other options that were available to me. Had I the opportunity to buy some other brand, I would have - even if they cost 50-100% more. Why? I want a stable computer. I want to spend more time using it and less time trying to get it work. Everytime I needed a workaround for a PITA problem, Jens' and Oliver had something that did the trick permanently.
That said...Jens' conditional offer regarding the MACH chips is far better than what we deserved after THAT petition. My guess is Jens' got so frustrated with all the support requests from Apollo owners that it was probably cheaper to just buy out the mouldering designs and lock them up. I have the feeling Jens' is doing Amiga product development mainly out of a love of the platform, since I can't see how you could keep a business going with a small, dwindling user base.
I did a search on Amiga.org for 'Apollo' and I see 13 pages of threads, perhaps 70-80% of them involve troubleshooting for seemingly random issues. Many of the remainder are from Apollo owners wanting a different brand of accelerator. One wonders why. You don't patch up a shoddy design over and over, its like bailing water out of a sinking rowboat with a 0.5m (~18") hole torn in the side. Just abandon that ship already.
As for the suggestion that Jens somehow needed the Apollo design as a starting point for his own, I find that hilarious since Jens and his fellow designers have repeatedly demonstrated their engineering competence many times over through many dozens of product designs. Many times I've noticed Jens' trying to reduce costs in later revisions of boards or expanding features while using quality parts so the product isn't compromised.
If Jens' ever finds it worthwhile to make an A2000 or A3000D accelerator with on-board RAM, I'll snatch them up in an instant, especially if they feature IDE (or sata even) controllers with nice speed/compatibility onboard. I'm willing to pay for the quality I've come to expect.
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I'm agreeing with Jens' philosophy on this, even though it could be perceived as a bit harsh. If you are one of the ones that stick with good technology (good computers. i.e., amiga), better to be stringent on your requirements in terms of "good design" / support.
I once had an Apollo board, and while I found it to be affordable (I was in college at the time), it was very flaky. Throughout my A1200's history I had an mbx1230 (paravision) 030 board, apollo, and then finally blizzard 060/ppc. The '030 was the best performer in terms of reliability followed by the 060/ppc as a close runner-up.
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While Jens probably shouldn't go into PR, his statements seem fair enough.
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His honour in terms of not wanting the QC of Apollo to be an issue is great, but why in the hell would you buy something to monopolize it and not use it?
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Jens is full of it and anyone who believes he's done this out of some sense of altruism is a chump. I would have had more respect for Jens if he just said "no" and skipped the bs. It's his to do with whatever he pleases, no need to make stuff up.
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He's well within his rights, no doubt about it.
X2.
If Jens has paid for the rights then he can do anything he likes with them.
The future is in new FPGA based boards anyway, not old Apollo tech (and this is coming from a proud Apollo 1260 owner!).
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Schematics to old tech can help one design a better FPGA implementation. but I agree its in Jens best interests to limit some of the information from the Apollo design. If he's originally paid good money for the information, its only natural. Can you imagine all the ppl copying the design and selling new boards for probably a small monetary gain.
He's being bad and good cop at the same time.. He's given a little to the community. ie. programmed Mach chips and eproms, but at the sametime limiting more information. ie schematics..
Wished someone had Blizzard/DCE accelerator designs to offer. :(
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For what he's done, created and knowledge, I respect his opinion. It's 1995 tech, what could be done with it. It would be like getting the tech specs to any of the Amiga models. Can't build a new one that easily. Not to mention who has the expertise, time, and money to improve then produce the design.
For what the Apollo is, it could be done better and easier with a modern design.
From a business standpoint, if something like it is in the works by him or some other party it could cut into their bottom line.
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It's 1995 tech, what could be done with it. It would be like getting the tech specs to any of the Amiga models. Can't build a new one that easily.
Advanced home electronics hobbyists that are involved in the amiga would kill for schematics+firmware! A tech howto guide even though is old but gives you an idea of whats involved. Look at Minimig as someones hobby project.. yeah I know not all Amiga users are at this level.. I've just started learning FPGA's myself, upgrading from atmel/pic 8bit world.. :P
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Advanced home electronics hobbyists that are involved in the amiga would kill for schematics+firmware!
From the looks of it, they could buy themselves out of homicide for $40k euros.
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In the end, everyone was free to ask him, and he was free to answer as he felt fit. All good.
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I did a search on Amiga.org for 'Apollo' and I see 13 pages of threads, perhaps 70-80% of them involve troubleshooting for seemingly random issues. Many of the remainder are from Apollo owners wanting a different brand of accelerator. One wonders why. You don't patch up a shoddy design over and over, its like bailing water out of a sinking rowboat with a 0.5m (~18") hole torn in the side. Just abandon that ship already.
Lots of examples of this in the Amigaverse, like the Cyberstorm PPC or Delfina. Honestly it's a challenge to get any expanded Amiga working reliably, which for some of us is part of the fun. That said, no one wants to deal with obviously broken hardware. My Apollo 1260 was one of the better accelerators I had, not nearly as user-friendly as my Blizzard 1260 was, but (with a little effort) just as stable, and quite a bit faster. It was perfect for demos, and would often run for days without a reboot. Still, the Apollo cards weren't the pinnacle, and not everyone was as lucky as I was or had the patience to sort through the bugs.
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Jens produced a new Accelerator Card for the A1200 ... why not get that one? For me I just want Jens to make the ACA520!! Can someone pester him with an email about that .... pleaseee ....
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Can you imagine all the ppl copying the design and selling new boards for probably a small monetary gain.
What? In the Amiga community? How many of us are there left that could build a new accelerator board and mass-produce it even if we had the instructions? Hell, going by some of the posts on Amiga.org, there'd only be a handful of Amiga users left that could even open the box of an accelerator board without bitching and moaning about it the whole time.
Meh to this whole Apollo mess; 74 users might be unhappy with Jens but that's nothing, I probably pissed off more than 74 people in the last 24 hours.
(And if Jens needs 40k to feel good about his investment in broken hardware, thank $DIETY that he is good at building hardware and not investments :>)
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All 3 of the Apollo 1240 cards presently in my possession work, but two of them are definitely a bit suspect. The third, a later revision board clocked at 28MHz achieved an uptime of over a week (was rendering an animation that would take a few minutes on modern kit ;)). It could have gone on for longer, but I turned off the machine once the job was done for a rest well-earned.
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My Apollo 2030 is great - but if I change anything at all then it becomes very unreliable. It took me ages to realise that the SCSI on it was actually working, because it was so strange, and if I add a second RAM stick to it it just crashes all over the place.
However, with one RAM chip and an occasional SCSI zip drive, it's now working really well.
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I totaly understand Jens in this.
He have explained that he bought it to remove an issue of Apolloowners complaining on his hardware for being faulty when it's issues caused by their CPU board. I know people can have a hard time accepting that it's not a newly installed peice of hardware that is to blame for a surfaced issues but a previous installed component. It have likely cost him a lot of time and money and it's perfectly possible it's been enough by it's own to get Jens to take the steps and buying it. That said I'm in no doubt that he have gained some new knowledge and understanding from the purchase and possibly used this in one way or another in his later products. Only Jens can say how big a contributing factor this had on the purchase but I won't speculate in it nor any other possible motives there might have been.
You can't expect him to go against his best interest and passing this on, let alone for free, and try to pressure him to do so with an online petition is borderline of being an insult. Be glad it didn't backfire, at least now you get an option to buy MACH131 chips.
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I totaly understand Jens in this.
He have explained that he bought it to remove an issue of Apolloowners complaining on his hardware for being faulty when it's issues caused by their CPU board. I know people can have a hard time accepting that it's not a newly installed peice of hardware that is to blame for a surfaced issues but a previous installed component.
My Apollo 1260/80Mhz is running great and stable, happily together with Jens' IdivisionAGA! :biglaugh:
It's the ACA 1230/42 accelerator from Jens that causes problems with some A1200 motherboard revisions.
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I respect Jens decision on this. Having bought several of his products, as I am sure a fair number of a.org users have, I have seen the high standard of hardware he produces. If he says there are issues then I would take his word for it. Maybe there is something hidden in the package of stuff he bought that looks iffy.
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It's his property and he his handling it in the best way he sees fit. Makes sense...
Wonder when Amiga Imminent Domain will take over ;)...
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Well I warned you guys the petition would be useless. Its kind of funny to use a reason of instability of boards when some of the ACA line is unstable! That being said he owns the IP and paid a lot of money for it and can do what he wants. Its cool that he will provide the mach 131 chips as that is one of the main goals for petitioning is it not?
Oh and for the record I had an Apollo 030@40mhz that was very reliable and stable.
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Jens says that apollo board are crap and unstable lol that's a big lie
The turboboards that are unstable and crap are those crap ACA boards
he purchased the rights of the apollo to monopolize the market
if anyone here believe that Jens is a good person and he wants to salve the amiga is because lol I will stop here
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Jens is full of it and anyone who believes he's done this out of some sense of altruism is a chump. I would have had more respect for Jens if he just said "no" and skipped the bs. It's his to do with whatever he pleases, no need to make stuff up.
Where does he claim it is out of altruism? On the contrary:
1) He claims it costs him money and time in support to deal with people who buy his other products and blame them for problems caused by the Apollo cards.
2) He claims it takes Amiga's off the market. And while preventing that might benefit users if it's a real issue, it certainly benefits him to keep as many classics as possible around too: The fewer classics are around, the smaller his market becomes.
You might not believe those are real reasons, but he's hardly pretending it's out of altruism.
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The turboboards that are unstable and crap are those crap ACA boards
Perhaps his own design is loosely based upon the Apollo Design. After all the Apollo IP saves a ton of R&D time, looking at other ppls work can really help boost your own ideas.. Just re-implement with your own vision of how the design should have been, cram as much as possible into a FPGA to lower footprint and make it more elegant.
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Jens says that apollo board are crap and unstable lol that's a big lie
Does it matter? The designs belong to him. They're not free to the Amiga Community (I believe someone here mentioned "Amiga Eminent Domain") simply because they are Amiga. No one else ponied up the money for the designs so no one else gets to say what happens to them. If we should point fingers at someone for this great disservice why not point fingers at whomever sold him the designs and rights in the first place.
We have enough whiz-kids around here who could design or pay to commission new accelerators rather than brow-beat someone who has spent time to design, develop, and produce quality Amiga hardware. I just can't understand why the whinging has to continue because, boo hoo, Jens won't part with a product he purchased because he's a mean bastard! Jens has and we don't, let's vilify him!
Seriously, some people need to grow up. He's more than legitimized some of the arguments by agreeing to compromise with the sale of the MACH chips and ROMs. IMNSHO the signers of the petitions are damn lucky he didn't simply say f-off tossers.
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Seriously, some people need to grow up. He's more than legitimized some of the arguments by agreeing to compromise with the sale of the MACH chips and ROMs. IMNSHO the signers of the petitions are damn lucky he didn't simply say f-off tossers.
While I agree with you that its good that the Mach chips will be available due to the petition, I hardly thing that one of the remaining Amiga hardware manufacturers should tell potential customers to "f-off tossers" that is NOT good business. That kind of atittude i s NOT how you treat the community. (someone should tell some other amiga companies we know this as well) Unfortanely with the level of fanboyism some amiga -ish companies feel like they can get away with bad customer support and products. We should just be grateful they are there. (even though we pay with hard earned money)
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I really wonder how much Jen's paid for the Apollo IP.. Just very curious..
Even with his tough attitude towards Apollo I guess we should be grateful he's making reasonable new hardware.
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While I agree with you that its good that the Mach chips will be available due to the petition, I hardly thing that one of the remaining Amiga hardware manufacturers should tell potential customers to "f-off tossers" that is NOT good business. That kind of atittude i s NOT how you treat the community. (someone should tell some other amiga companies we know this as well) Unfortanely with the level of fanboyism some amiga -ish companies feel like they can get away with bad customer support and products. We should just be grateful they are there. (even though we pay with hard earned money)
No, a reputable dealer should not (and did not, for anyone who reads this out of context) say such disparaging things. It was meant as extreme hyperbole to counter the opposition.
I think we're pretty fortunate in this community to have our providers whittled down to people who actually care about the Amiga, their products, and their customers.
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I called this the sensible course of action, but I did also sign the petition.
He's well within his rights, no doubt about it.
That said, it's a shame yet another piece of hardware is going to die off for lack of documentation.
I don't believe "buying it to keep it off the market for our own good", I'm sure it was buying it to jumpstart a new product and the design turned out to be crap.
He didn't buy it to kill it originally,its after he bought it and found out what a poor problematic design it was and then decided to kill it.
junk should be eliminated from the market,but the problem is instead of buying a decent blizzard or cyberstorm board,almost everyone goes for cheap, and you get what you pay for.
mech
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While I agree with you that its good that the Mach chips will be available due to the petition, I hardly thing that one of the remaining Amiga hardware manufacturers should tell potential customers to "f-off tossers" that is NOT good business. That kind of atittude i s NOT how you treat the community. (someone should tell some other amiga companies we know this as well) Unfortanely with the level of fanboyism some amiga -ish companies feel like they can get away with bad customer support and products. We should just be grateful they are there. (even though we pay with hard earned money)
Having pride in what one sells and being the guy responsible for warranty is not a easy thing. Jens didn't tell anyone to f-off. Just because he runs a company does not mean he can't have a personal opinion. i didn't see any attitude in his quoted text,he was direct and simply told it how it is.
Anyone should stand behind their products.
If you think its so easy try building items for a near thankless market that won't support your living-Most anything we amigans get hardware wise is nearly a labor of love.. Then warranty those said products for xx years. he deals with everything from people running his stuff on poor/underpowered/incorrect power supplies to people not reading instructions and plugging stuff up wrong only to fry it then incessant whining when its not warrantied when they kill it. You need to try the other side of the fence my friend. See how you come out at the end.
Mech
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Mechy I wasnt talking about Jens specifically. I was adressing the comment "i would have told them to F-off tossers"
Also, I had a Toaster and amiga business with a public phone number. Believe me I know how hard it is to deal with amiga customers :0
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He didn't buy it to kill it originally,its after he bought it and found out what a poor problematic design it was and then decided to kill it.
junk should be eliminated from the market,but the problem is instead of buying a decent blizzard or cyberstorm board,almost everyone goes for cheap, and you get what you pay for.
mech
apollo boards are good...there are ppl there running apollo 1260 at 80 and 90 mhz
ppl runing the apollo 4060 at 100mhz
I agree that blizzard boards and all phase 5 products are the best in the market
but nobody can say that apollo boards are crap or were bad designed
even the apollo 1230 series were much better than these new ACA crap boards
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apollo boards are good...there are ppl there running apollo 1260 at 80 and 90 mhz
ppl runing the apollo 4060 at 100mhz
I agree that blizzard boards and all phase 5 products are the best in the market
but nobody can say that apollo boards are crap or were bad designed
even the apollo 1230 series were much better than these new ACA crap boards
Wow, thats very harsh....why do you think the new ACA boards are crap? Mines great. Have you ever owned one?
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I owned an ACA1230/42 and I can say it's a piece of crap! Very unstable design, especially with motherboard rev 1b & 2b. Also, the ACA630 is not compatible with a lot of games due to the SDRAM memory. Also, you can't change them if the SDRAMS are getting fried or something, because there soldered to the board. Why didn't Jens use a plain oll' 72pins EDO socket!?
Another downside is te lack of an (optional) FPU. I know most of the people don't use the FPU anyway, but a certain percentage of us does. Think of JPEG loading in AdPro or faster 3D rendering. OK, you can say "wy not do that kind of stuff with your PC (WinUAE), because it's faster." But I (and others aswell) like it when I see my beloved Amiga work hard to do the job!
Google "aca1230/42 problems" to see how many complains there are about the ACA's from Jens...
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I owned an ACA1230/42 and I can say it's a piece of crap!
Well, I don't think you're either a very novice user (with all due respect), or you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Or you're trolling.
Also, the ACA630 is not compatible with a lot of games due to the SDRAM memory.
Why not?
Also, you can't change them if the SDRAMS are getting fried or something, because there soldered to the board.
Why on earth would the SDRAM get fried (unless you're doing something you're not supposed to)?
Why didn't Jens use a plain oll' 72pins EDO socket!?
Why should he? SMD RAM takes less space, it's cheaper, easier in many ways, modern and still in production, no RAM sockets to wear out, etc.
Another downside is te lack of an (optional) FPU. I know most of the people don't use the FPU anyway, but a certain percentage of us does.
That's the key: a percentage. The remaining 90% doesn't need the FPU, so the board is cheaper without one. Simple logic.
Google "aca1230/42 problems" to see how many complains there are about the ACA's from Jens...
I did, and couldn't find many. Sorry.
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@AmiDude
Most problems with ACA's are due to A1200-motherboards not having the timing-fixes done. Some problems are with the ACATune-tool that's still needs updating.
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@rewlako
#1
I'm into Amiga's since 1985, so I guess that makes me an expert user. And don't acuse me of trolling; I'm an A.org member since 2005. You on the other hand could well be a troll; member since April 2012... Very suspicious...
#2
Why not, you say? Ask Jens!
#3
Anything can get fried, especially by very novice users that don't know what they're doing.
#4
EDO is cheap too, and very easy to replace.
#5
He could put an FPU socket onto the boards, so that buyers can deside to put on an FPU or not. It's their decision in the end.
#6
I did too, and find many. Sorry.
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I've apollo 040 and it has it problems but it is OK for me. It works only with some MOBO / ROM compinations. Like it works with 1d4 with rom 3.0 but not with 3.1, it works IF timingfixes are done, just like ACA.
It has fast chip ram access,so fast that it seems faster than 060 with WB and some colors.
It is much more unstable than blizzard with zorro extenders, but with plain aga is stable.
And it seems that there are as many revisoins as there are apollo boards??
Apollos are part of Amiga history, yes they aren't best product in playground, but we are NOT talking new/still in production products here.
So keeping mind that historical point and there woun't be new apollo boards, Jens attitude is little childish? But he has his opinions and he is owner, so he has all the right to be childish.
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I have to say that using EDO these days would be crazy. The reason for using soldered on SDRAM is fairly obvious - cost. It's probably cheaper to stick 64MB RAM on the thing these days than it would be to fit a socket! That and it'll be a lot more reliable, and take a lot less room, and far faster than EDO.
As for SDRAM causing compatibility... that doesn't make much sense. I suspect the issue there is something different which could be fixed by a firmware upgrade.
I can't say I've seen many problems myself, actually.. and I looked on Google too. Do you have links? (Not trolling or criticising, I'm genuinely interested)
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@AmiDude
Most problems with ACA's are due to A1200-motherboards not having the timing-fixes done. Some problems are with the ACATune-tool that's still needs updating.
You could be right about that. But that makes the ACA boards not very "Plug 'n Play".
My Apollo's & Blizzard boards are not suffering from that problem.
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I can't say I've seen many problems myself, actually.. and I looked on Google too. Do you have links? (Not trolling or criticising, I'm genuinely interested)
Just google "aca1230/42 problems" and you will see various of posts.
Example link: ACA1231/42 problems (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=64542)
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#1
I'm into Amiga's since 1985, so I guess that makes me an expert user. And don't acuse me of trolling; I'm an A.org member since 2005. You on the other hand could well be a troll; member since April 2012... Very suspicious...
Oh, give me a break. I started in 1987, not long after you. A.org membership means nothing. If I'm wrong in my accusations, please accept my apologies, but you do sound very novice in your posts.
#2
Why not, you say? Ask Jens!
No, you made the statement, you explain it. At least explain what happens, and how you know the SDRAM is to blame. Give me a reproducible real-life example.
#3
Anything can get fried, especially by very novice users that don't know what they're doing.
The whole Amiga can get fried by very novice users. Your concern should't be focused on the ACA, but every electronic item in the world.
#4
EDO is cheap too, and very easy to replace.
Yes, but the advantage of SMD SDRAM outweighs EDO.
#5
He could put an FPU socket onto the boards, so that buyers can deside to put on an FPU or not. It's their decision in the end.
True, but that would mean A) a bigger board, B) more components (trust me, a socket isn't enough) C) more testing, D) people start messing with the boards (see your argument #3), E) more support for Jens.
#6
I did too, and find many. Sorry.
Then please give me a a few links. I googled, and found the opposite, people love it. But maybe my google-fu is a bit rusty.
Sorry if I come out as rude, it's nothing personal against you.
Disclaimer: I'm not Jens (nor affiliated with him in any way)
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...but you do sound very novice in your posts.
You're not a bright light neither.
No, you made the statement, you explain it. At least explain what happens, and how you know the SDRAM is to blame. Give me a reproducible real-life example.
I'm not an technical engineer. I just experience problems with some games which I don't have with other accelerators.
True, but that would mean A) a bigger board, B) more components (trust me, a socket isn't enough) C) more testing, D) people start messing with the boards (see your argument #3), E) more support for Jens.
If the board has no FPU, then it's not interesting for me and a whole bunch of other Amiga fans.
Sorry if I come out as rude, it's nothing personal against you.
Disclaimer: I'm not Jens (nor affiliated with him in any way)
You do sound so.
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I'm not an technical engineer. I just experience problems with some games which I don't have with other accelerators.
Ok. I am an electronics engineer, so I wanted to see if your accusations were based on facts or.. well.. speculation. Not even being able to give a reproducible example leads me to think it's the latter.
If the board has no FPU, then it's not interesting for me and a whole bunch of other Amiga fans.
There will always be complaints about products. Every product. "Why doesn't it have this, why doesn't it support that..."
You can't make everyone happy. Corners needs to be cut in order to keep the price down. If it's too expensive, nobody will buy it. If you have been with Amiga since 1985, you should have seen examples of this over and over again.
You do sound so.
Ok, sorry. I have a tendency to sound very harsh and aggressive.
Again, nothing personal. Just the way I am.
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Ok. I am an electronics engineer, so I wanted to see if your accusations were based on facts or.. well.. speculation. Not even being able to give a reproducible example leads me to think it's the latter.
My accusations ARE based on facts. I (and others) encountered several problems with the ACA cards. I don't need to be an electronics engineer for that. That's a FACT!
Don't get me wrong, but there is nothing wrong by holding new products against the light.
Ok, sorry. I have a tendency to sound very harsh and aggressive.
Again, nothing personal. Just the way I am.
I'm glad that you know yourself that good. So, you're an ACA worshipper... That's OK. Have fun! ;)
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It would be nice to see summary of ACA1231 issues & fixes, as it looks appealing if I one day own A1200.
Some things can be fixed on A1200:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=63693
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My accusations ARE based on facts. I (and others) encountered several problems with the ACA cards. I don't need to be an electronics engineer for that. That's a FACT!
Don't get me wrong, but there is nothing wrong by holding new products against the light.
Then, please, reproducible examples. This is the third time I'm requesting it. Start by giving me an example of a program that "doesn't work" because of the SDRAM - this should be an easy task for you.
By all means, for all that I know you could be right. But, if you are, prove it or back down.
I'm glad that you know yourself that good. So, you're an ACA worshipper... That's OK. Have fun! ;)
I don't even own one. I'm sorry for pinning you down on this one, but I have problems with people blaming their incompetence on technical flaws, when it is obvious that they have no clue what they are talking about.
Unless you can give me some data to work with, I say we're done here.
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I've been around here since the dinosaurs roamed the server halls, so if you lot would please stop bickering? :)
SDRAM is not a problem in itself - the problem is ancient software hard-coded to rely on chipset, CPU and RAM timing to function. Well-programmed software should have no hardware-related issues running on a system just because it has a faster type of RAM.
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Then, please, reproducible examples. This is the third time I'm requesting it. Start by giving me an example of a program that "doesn't work" because of the SDRAM - this should be an easy task for you.
By all means, for all that I know you could be right. But, if you are, prove it or back down.
I don't even own one. I'm sorry for pinning you down on this one, but I have problems with people blaming their incompetence on technical flaws, when it is obvious that they have no clue what they are talking about.
Unless you can give me some data to work with, I say we're done here.
I've give you an explanation about some "older" games that refuses to work with the ACA accelerator. They just don't start or freezing while playing the game. This doesn't occur with my Blizzard or Apollo accelerators. Don't need further explanation.
So, I DO know what I'm talking about, and you're obviously NOT, since you don't even own an ACA. Don't make me laugh! You just come and barg in here, screaming and yelling. about stuff you don't even have experience with.
Now, move along and go somewhere else trolling!
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I've give you an explanation about some "older" games that refuses to work with the ACA accelerator. They just don't start or freezing while playing the game. This doesn't occur with my Blizzard or Apollo accelerators. Don't need further explanation.
Which ones? I'd like to test them :-)
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My accusations ARE based on facts. I (and others) encountered several problems with the ACA cards. I don't need to be an electronics engineer for that. That's a FACT!
Don't get me wrong, but there is nothing wrong by holding new products against the light.
I'm glad that you know yourself that good. So, you're an ACA worshipper... That's OK. Have fun! ;)
Just do the timing fixes and see if its a problem after that.
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I've give you an explanation about some "older" games that refuses to work with the ACA accelerator. They just don't start or freezing while playing the game. This doesn't occur with my Blizzard or Apollo accelerators. Don't need further explanation.
So, I DO know what I'm talking about, and you're obviously NOT, since you don't even own an ACA. Don't make me laugh! You just come and barg in here, screaming and yelling. about stuff you don't even have experience with.
Now, move along and go somewhere else trolling!
I have an ACA card and the total number of games i have found incompatible on my 1200 2b are zero.
And i wouldn't touch an apollo card with a bargepole (I have a blizzard though)
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Mechy I wasnt talking about Jens specifically. I was adressing the comment "i would have told them to F-off tossers"
Also, I had a Toaster and amiga business with a public phone number. Believe me I know how hard it is to deal with amiga customers :0
Sorry about that if i misread.
Mech
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I have an ACA card and the total number of games i have found incompatible on my 1200 2b are zero.
And i wouldn't touch an apollo card with a bargepole (I have a blizzard though)
I've had exactly one game that didn't work, but I forget the title now. Otherwise, the ACA's are what I'd call "pretty damn compatible".
Of course, the difference between the EC020 and an 030 in itself can cause an incompatibility.
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Of course, the difference between the EC020 and an 030 in itself can cause an incompatibility.
Actually, the '030 is a shrinked '020 with a (slightly simplified) MMU plus a tiny data cache. Not much of a source for incompatibilities unless you forcefully create one. ;)
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Actually, the '030 is a shrinked '020 with a (slightly simplified) MMU plus a tiny data cache. Not much of a source for incompatibilities unless you forcefully create one. ;)
Gotcha. When I got my first 030/25 card, forget the manufacturer, I saw some very slight issues, so I figured there were some loss of compatibility
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I have an ACA card and the total number of games i have found incompatible on my 1200 2b are zero.
And i wouldn't touch an apollo card with a bargepole (I have a blizzard though)
What, not even the 100MHz Apollo1260 card which Cosmos has running perfectly stable?
http://www.leblogdecosmos.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/68060100.html
I can think of a few games that aren't ACA compatible.... AB3D2TKG, Quake, Payback, Gloom Deluxe, Genetic Species, Doom, Breathless, TFX, Freespace and many more....
Sorry, did I say compatibe? I meant usable.
At the end of the day some Amiga owners demand real power, and that's where 040/060 Apollo and Blizzard's come into play. More so the Apollo because I believe that there are a lot more of those cards around (for better or for worse). Apollo's are also faster than Blizzard's. People can only work with what they have available to them.
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@Amidudue + rewlako.. Ok I think this bickering has to stop.
We all know theres lots of variables at play here, motherboard revisions, different harddrive/cf setups, different expansions PCMCIA, Clockport addons, scsi kits, different kickstarts, different OS versions & patches etc...
Of course theres gunna be hicups here and there with so many variables. Everything relies on tight timings etc.
Bottom line if ACA doesnt work as good as you think it should, just sell it get an Apollo or Blizzard. Just try a few accelerator cards and see what works best for you.
Dont think we can come to any conclusion to arguments unless strict quality testing was conducted in an controlled environment, so might as was have a BBQ get some ppl over with their A1200's and test away (:
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And i wouldn't touch an apollo card with a bargepole (I have a blizzard though)
Why do you say this? Have you ever even owned an Apollo board or are you just formulating an opinion from reading forums?
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What, not even the 100MHz Apollo1260 card which Cosmos has running perfectly stable?
http://www.leblogdecosmos.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/68060100.html
I can think of a few games that aren't ACA compatible.... AB3D2TKG, Quake, Payback, Gloom Deluxe, Genetic Species, Doom, Breathless, TFX, Freespace and many more....
Sorry, did I say compatibe? I meant usable.
At the end of the day some Amiga owners demand real power, and that's where 040/060 Apollo and Blizzard's come into play. More so the Apollo because I believe that there are a lot more of those cards around (for better or for worse). Apollo's are also faster than Blizzard's. People can only work with what they have available to them.
My Apollo is still running perfect at 105 Mhz now.
The only Apollo who is a bit unstable is the A630@50 (and I think I found the reason why).
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/arikel_tolifen/hiuszjpg.gif)
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The only Apollo who is a bit unstable is the A630@50 (and I think I found the reason why).
Whats your reason? Just interested to hear.
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What, not even the 100MHz Apollo1260 card which Cosmos has running perfectly stable?
http://www.leblogdecosmos.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/68060100.html
I can think of a few games that aren't ACA compatible.... AB3D2TKG, Quake, Payback, Gloom Deluxe, Genetic Species, Doom, Breathless, TFX, Freespace and many more....
Sorry, did I say compatibe? I meant usable.
At the end of the day some Amiga owners demand real power, and that's where 040/060 Apollo and Blizzard's come into play. More so the Apollo because I believe that there are a lot more of those cards around (for better or for worse). Apollo's are also faster than Blizzard's. People can only work with what they have available to them.
The games you have mentioned there are irrelevant to aca cards - they were never designed to run those games and all of such games are better played on a proper retro pc where they were primarily developed. What's the point of scraping by on an (overheating) apollo card which is about to give up its magic smoke.
Also Apollo cards are usually the cheapest of all -£ for hz - (and lose more % value more than any other card)
Purchasing (or defending) apollo cards is pretty much a lost cause and my support is to ACA and Jens :)
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I've give you an explanation about some "older" games that refuses to work with the ACA accelerator. They just don't start or freezing while playing the game. This doesn't occur with my Blizzard or Apollo accelerators. Don't need further explanation.
But how do you know this is related to the SDRAM and not some other incompability?
So, I DO know what I'm talking about, and you're obviously NOT, since you don't even own an ACA. Don't make me laugh! You just come and barg in here, screaming and yelling. about stuff you don't even have experience with.
Look, I never claimed to have experience with the ACA. If you read my posts again, all I'm wanted you to do was to back up your claims. Maybe not in that exact tone, but the essence is the same.
Now, move along and go somewhere else trolling!
Calm down, I'm not trolling. Breathe in, breathe out and read all my posts again. I never attacked you, I never made any false claims, I never accused you of anything but talking out of your own incompetence.
I have not really seen any evidence that you know what you're talking about, except for arguments like "there's this game that doesn't work", and "some others have had problems".
As I said in my previous post, we're not getting anywhere with this, I'm done here.
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We all know theres lots of variables at play here, motherboard revisions, different harddrive/cf setups, different expansions PCMCIA, Clockport addons, scsi kits, different kickstarts, different OS versions & patches etc...
Of course it is. Amiga is an unstable platform.
Of course theres gunna be hicups here and there with so many variables. Everything relies on tight timings etc.
Obviously. But, when people throw out accusations like "Oh, that's because of the SDRAM" and at the same time don't know why SDRAM was used, I feel like racking him a bit for it to see if there's some ground to his claims or not.
Dont think we can come to any conclusion to arguments unless strict quality testing was conducted in an controlled environment, so might as was have a BBQ get some ppl over with their A1200's and test away (:
All I asked for was a few real-life examples, which he never provided. Don't worry, I got the confirmation I wanted and will leave this thread dead now.
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Snoozy's ACA is great for playing Superfrog, but the hard fact is that for running some of the big AGA demos on an A1200, I can say from experience that nothing is better than a properly tweaked Apollo 1260.
Blizzard: Best "all-rounder", best software (BlizKick), but neutered chipset access disappoints
Apollo: Best for demos, more work to setup
Now if Jens makes a better '060 card one of these days, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. :-)
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Snoozy's ACA is great for playing Superfrog, but the hard fact is that for running some of the big AGA demos on an A1200, I can say from experience that nothing is better than a properly tweaked Apollo 1260.
Blizzard: Best "all-rounder", best software (BlizKick), but neutered chipset access disappoints
Apollo: Best for demos, more work to setup
Now if Jens makes a better '060 card one of these days, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. :-)
Lets be clear about this: the ACA cards will run almost all normal 500 and 1200 software without a problem. There will not be intermittent crashes (apollo) or small fans squashed in to cool down the cheap components (apollo). I have no interest in some random demo's and gloom.
As Individual Computers have implied the best outcome for apollo's is to remove the 680x0 chip and put the rest of it in the bin :roflmao:
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Now if Jens makes a better '060 card one of these days, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. :-)
We all wish that, unfortunately never going to happen..
As Individual Computers have implied the best outcome for apollo's is to remove the 680x0 chip and put the rest of it in the bin
And I ask again have you ever run an Apollo board? To say to throw it in the bin is absolute rubbish (pun intended)
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We all wish that, unfortunately never going to happen..
And I ask again have you ever run an Apollo board? To say to throw it in the bin is absolute rubbish (pun intended)
Ok i have never driven a hyundai/kia or skoda - but i know i don't want one. So no i have never had an apollo and i know i don't want one to upset my 1200.
And No you would take the 680x0 chip off first and then put it in the bin :)
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Apollo boards are ok, I've had one years 10? It very stable without any other expanions and very very fast.
Compared to BLizzard it seems so much faster with WB, because it nonstandard chipram access, that I started to think that there is something wrong with my blizzard.
I works with zorro extenders but not that well as a blizzard.
It is also really picky with motherboard revisions, with timing fixes all problems are gone.
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As I said in my previous post, we're not getting anywhere with this, I'm done here.
Great! Bye bye! :quickdraw:
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The only Apollo who is a bit unstable is the A630@50 (and I think I found the reason why).
Please, be so kind to share your information with us.
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I need to check by myself when I'll get one here !
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What, not even the 100MHz Apollo1260 card which Cosmos has running perfectly stable?
http://www.leblogdecosmos.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/68060100.html
I can think of a few games that aren't ACA compatible.... AB3D2TKG, Quake, Payback, Gloom Deluxe, Genetic Species, Doom, Breathless, TFX, Freespace and many more....
Sorry, did I say compatibe? I meant usable.
I guess ACA1230/56Mhz runs these games better than Blizzard030/50 mkIV or Apollo030, at least those that work without FPU.
I'm still waiting for the names of these problematic games that run on fpu-less Blizzard/Apollo but don't work on ACA1230/56. WHDLoad will help run most of problematic games.
At the end of the day some Amiga owners demand real power, and that's where 040/060 Apollo and Blizzard's come into play. More so the Apollo because I believe that there are a lot more of those cards around (for better or for worse). Apollo's are also faster than Blizzard's. People can only work with what they have available to them.
I would love an ACA1260 with SATA for my A1200, but I don't expect it anytime soon. ACA 040 may be a possibility in the future as 040s are easier to find, but only Jens will see if there are real sales. 040/060 boards are more expensive due to extra logic required to interface 040 to amiga bus and most of people will complain about it being too expensive so he may end up with a pile of unsold accelerators.
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I would love an ACA1260 with SATA for my A1200, but I don't expect it anytime soon. .
In this case "any time soon" = "not in our lifetime" :)
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In this case "any time soon" = "not in our lifetime" :)
It depends on demand, if AmigaKit&Vesalia found a good source of 060s and ordered him a pair of hundreds of ACAs 1260 perhaps we would see it happen. There are more chances it happens with 040s but who knows, I already have 060s and I'm looking forward to ACA520 :-)
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Are accelerators beholden to the personality of specific processors? If not, then perhaps a run of unpopulated 060 accelerators for which the user provides his or her own CPU? If Jens could make an 060 card better than my CyberStorm MKIII or Blizzard 1260 with on-board SATA and more RAM, I'd happily pull the 060 from either or both boards.
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If not, then perhaps a run of unpopulated 060 accelerators for which the user provides his or her own CPU?
It's too bad that legitimate 060's are so hard to find. What if he did that, and then got lots of complaints from people buying 060's from sketchy sellers in Shenzen hocking substandard/counterfeit parts?
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It's too bad that legitimate 060's are so hard to find. What if he did that, and then got lots of complaints from people buying 060's from sketchy sellers in Shenzen hocking substandard/counterfeit parts?
That's really not his problem. With the reports of counterfeit 060s floating around recently, I'm not confident enough to buy any of them on-line, anyway. Like I said, I'd strip my CyberStorm MKIII or Blizzard.
But, I can see how that presents a problem for him as there are a lot of people out there who simply don't get caveat emptor when sourcing potentially dodgy parts. I deal with that all the time from hobbyist PC builders who want to know why a bunch of cheap parts purchased from some online suppliers just don't work together if at all. God forbid a good part from me is in the mix, because I'm the one who takes that fall because I'm the only one who they can actually get hold of!
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If not, then perhaps a run of unpopulated 060 accelerators for which the user provides his or her own CPU?
I think that a new cpu card should include cpu.
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I think that a new cpu card should include cpu.
That's all well and good when the CPUs are in production and ready supply. Unless someone has a FPGA 68060 replacement ready to roll...?
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Ok i have never driven a hyundai/kia or skoda - but i know i don't want one. So no i have never had an apollo and i know i don't want one to upset my 1200.
And No you would take the 680x0 chip off first and then put it in the bin :)
So if Cosmos was to be so kind as to give you his Apollo1260/105MHz for free, then you would simply remove the CPU, then toss the card in the bin?
I've never heard so much crap as that.
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So if Cosmos was to be so kind as to give you his Apollo1260/105MHz for free, then you would simply remove the CPU, then toss the card in the bin?
I've never heard so much crap as that.
Yes the best thing about the apollo cards is the cpu on them; as Individual Computers have documented the rest of the card is based on design error and functions on the basis of luck and possible compatibility with the mobo revision.
Arguing with apollo supporters is a bit like shadow boxing and i have neither the time nor inclination for further comment as i've made my view point known.
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I dont understand why spend money to bury all the designs. It's even idiotic when huge companies do, that when is done on smaller markets it doesn't make sense.
If he had to trow all the money, why not fund a ppc project instead of buying a technology in order to destroy it?
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and i have neither the time nor inclination for further comment as i've made my view point known
Probably a good idea, I doubt anyone cares since you've never even owned an Apollo 1260. On the other hand, Jens' comments are fully respectable considering his background and expertise. The fact is all those old accelerators had their compromises, you just decide what's most important for you and enjoy the experience.
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Probably a good idea, I doubt anyone cares since you've never even owned an Apollo 1260. On the other hand, Jens' comments are fully respectable considering his background and expertise. The fact is all those old accelerators had their compromises, you just decide what's most important for you and enjoy the experience.
So you make sweeping comments for all on amiga org?
And i have tended to treat your comments with the same level of disregard
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I got a great deal on Apollo 1240 once, 25MHz and I overclocked it to 32Mhz. I don't recall it being any less reliable than my Blizzard 1260. I'd grab another.
Bought an ACA630 once, and it didn't work on one of my A600s.
Hard to get 100% success with 20+ year old hardware.
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So you make sweeping comments for all on amiga org?
No, the only person I was talking to was you. You haven't any experience whatsoever with the hardware in the topic. Yet, you feel confident enough to jump in here and smugly parrot someone who is an actual respectable expert (Jens), to the annoyance of people that likely have owned a dozen or more accelerators over the years. Cyberstorms, Blizzards, Apollos, you name it. Can you say toolbag.
And i have tended to treat your comments with the same level of disregard
LOL, I could really care less.
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No, the only person I was talking to was you. You haven't any experience whatsoever with the hardware in the topic. Yet, you feel confident enough to jump in here and smugly parrot someone who is an actual respectable expert (Jens), to the annoyance of people that likely have owned a dozen or more accelerators over the years. Cyberstorms, Blizzards, Apollos, you name it. Can you say toolbag.
LOL, I could really care less.
(yawn) Another dimwit out of reach of the facts.
And of course i'm going to comment on ACA cards since i own one (and a blizzard)
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--comment deleted--
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What's the point of scraping by on an (overheating) apollo card which is about to give up its magic smoke.
If anyone is "scraping by", then that would be you with your ACA.
I own a Blizzard1260 and it's slow, it runs as hot as an 040, and I keep it as a backup card incase my Apollo1260 dies.
Also Apollo cards are usually the cheapest of all -£ for hz - (and lose more % value more than any other card)
I have to disagree here. Any 040/060 card is highly sought after and fetches good money. If you had one you wouldn't want to sell it anyway.
Purchasing (or defending) apollo cards is pretty much a lost cause and my support is to ACA and Jens :)
Why wouldn't I want to defend my Apollo? It's given me nothing but flawless performance for many years. I've never had any issues of stability or incompatibilty whatsoever. I believe half of the problems people have with any 040/060 cards are down to incorrect CPU library files and incompatible libraries....so basically just dumb users. Those types tend to stick to 030's.
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This is all getting kind of off topic but....
I was after a Blizzard 1260 but had to settle for an Apollo instead.
So far it's 100% stable and also fast and compatible (even seems to work with WHDLOAD games/demos without any config changes).
BOOM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XG7-U5HdpI&feature=youtu.be)
The Dig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyICKyz4BoY)
Quake (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBLjQXa5xnc)
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Yes the best thing about the apollo cards is the cpu on them; as Individual Computers have documented the rest of the card is based on design error and functions on the basis of luck and possible compatibility with the mobo revision.
That's a lie! Individual Computers can make a "document" of anything, but that doesn't mean it's true. I've got 3 Apollo boards, and all are 100% functional and stable. And I'm not alone; there are many other happy Apollo owners.
Like I stated before: It's the ACA 1230/42 accelerator from Jens that causes problems with some A1200 motherboard revisions.
I think Jens bought the Apollo rights because he was scared that someone else would buy it. By doing so, he eliminated all potential competition. And the whole "unstable Apollo" story is one big lie!
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That's a lie! Individual Computers can make a "document" of anything, but that doesn't mean it's true. I've got 3 Apollo boards, and all are 100% functional and stable. And I'm not alone; there are many other happy Apollo owners.
Like I stated before: It's the ACA 1230/42 accelerator from Jens that causes problems with some A1200 motherboard revisions.
I think Jens bought the Apollo rights because he was scared that someone else would buy it. By doing so, he eliminated all potential competition. And the whole "unstable Apollo" story is one big lie!
Jens has done so much for Amiga. It is possible someone might have scooped up the Apollo stuff for production, but unlikely, and if was opened up it would be doomed to fail. The market is so small. Regardless of the competition argument I am 100% confident Jens is best placed to have the opinon he does. Right or wrong it's not a lie. It's the opinon of an excellent electronics technician who produces the only regularly available new hardware for classic amigas.
The apollo horse is well and truly dead. I have an opinion that 110 posts is enough flogging.
Err like over it already.
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The apollo horse is well and truly dead.
On the contrary, the Apollo is still alive and kicking *ss!
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Don't mess with Apollo!
(http://images.wikia.com/rocky/images/c/cf/Apollo_Creed.jpg)
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Don't mess with Apollo!
(http://images.wikia.com/rocky/images/c/cf/Apollo_Creed.jpg)
Yo Adrian, Wouldn't dare!
To be clear (If I wasn't) My comments weren't in regard to the existing hardware. They were all about the promise of resurection. I luv classic hardware. But I also understand that's what it is.
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Don't mess with Apollo!
(http://images.wikia.com/rocky/images/c/cf/Apollo_Creed.jpg)
:roflmao: :laughing: :rofl:
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hmmm a few scenes later and apollo was dead
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yep the story about apollo boards are buggy and unstable is a big big lie
anyways if we have to compare between 030 accelerators the best one is still the blizzard 1230 mk4 ...and was designed 17 years ago
The new ACA 1230 boards are small and looks cheaper in my eyes...even the apollo 1230 series were better designed,they have a socket for fpu and have optional scsi
also I never heard of problems or stability issues on apollo 1230 cards,however the apollo 1240 and 1260 sometimes are a bit problematic
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Apollo boards are junk
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Maybe I dont know what I am talking about but my Apollo 1260 @ 80 MHz is rock solid with the Indivision v1 and have not let me down.
Better toss it in the dumpster because some electronic snob ;) thinks its crap.
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My Apollo 040 was fine, despite being heavily overclocked, for ages until I sold it.
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Yeah my old Apollo MK3 030@40mhz was nice and stable.. dont know where this whole "apollo are crap" the funny thing is the guy who really started it on this thread never even owned one! lulz typical
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I suspect that like anything else, certain models are better than others. I know my 2030 is dodgy but once you've set it up right is great.... you'll probably find that things like the 1230 are great but the 630 isn't.
Whatever, Jens does know what he's talking about. You don't design that much quality hardware without knowing your DMAs from your PIOs.
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the idea of releasing the jdec file of the apollo chip is good ,but does anyone really have it by now or was just smoke in the air
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It was conditional on him selling 267 mach 131 chips at 150EUR each, I very much doubt if that happened.
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It was conditional on him selling 267 mach 131 chips at 150EUR each, I very much doubt if that happened.
I doubt there's 267 boards in existence. What an absurd number, unless he was trying to recoup some kind of investment. :-/
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Yeah, I got a http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/apollo4060 with a cracked MACH chip .. I will probably just hang it on the wall or something or maybe I will send it as a gift to Jens, he can re-enact one of the Office Space scenes ;) .. might have to be short though, how much time can one spend on destroying an accelerator card :biglaugh:
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Oh no, not that old thread again!
I think that everything possible has been made, and it is very unlikely that the money will be gathered one day. There is more probabilities that i will meet aliens from deep space during my lifetime than i will get the jedec file for the MACH131 one day.
In the meantime, i still have an Apollo 1240 that needs a MACH 131, so if you have that, just PM.
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i will meet aliens from deep space during my lifetime
Howdy, neighbor!
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Oh no, not that old thread again!
:cool:
Another old thread resurrected unnecessarily.
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http://hackaday.com/2010/07/16/decapping-integrated-circuits-with-sap/
From the comment :
"One use for decapping chips is when the chips contain internal ROM, decapping can be used to read it out. If it contains mask ROM, you can decap it and photograph the ROM. In some cases you can decap the chip, disable the protection circuitry and read out the data."
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i thought the petition was dead and buried- next to the grave housing several expired apollo cards
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iV GoT aN aMiga 500!
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Howdy, neighbor!
Yeah, that day may be coming sooner than expected :)
Look at the numerous amazing planet discoveries by Kepler:
(http://media.begeek.fr/2013/04/Kepler-62-650x487.jpg)
Hopefully, those aliens will be technologically advanced enough to easily duplicate any MACH file :D
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No the aliens are just going show up with a book titled "How to serve Humans".
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Fried or roasted.:)
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Fried or roasted.:)
Well, I'd rather be fried than roasted.
But that's just my personal preference.:drink: