Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: bloodline on June 11, 2003, 12:09:24 PM
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I love the thoughts flowing through the forums right now!!!
One such idea is the OpenAmiga standard, a way to define what features are avaiable across the AmigaOS clones, so that developers wishing to support all AmigaOS platforms can follow. A type of POSIX style standard for the Amiga Platform.
This should be decided by the Community not the AmigaOS clone teams :-)
-Edit- Some common factors are:
AmigaOS 3.1 API
CyberGFX
AHI
BSDSocket
MUI
SDL
OpenGL
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Me as an AmigaOS 4.0 supporter I like very much that idea, lets make also a poll (I wrote about it in the other thread) here in Amiga.org to see what others believe. (but first let`s discuss it here to see the advantages and the disadvantages and try to find the solutions.)
AmigaOS 4.0, MorphOS, Aros like the BSDs :-) (sort of...)
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Dagon wrote:
Me as an AmigaOS 4.0 supporter I like very much that idea, lets make also a poll (I wrote about it in the other thread) here in Amiga.org to see what others believe.
AmigaOS 4.0, MorphOS, Aros like the BSDs :-) (sort of...)
Well exactly that!!!
Poll arn't really necessary!! we just neeed to think about what API's are covered by all systems. (I've given a list of what I think is lowest avaiable spec, others may have thought about other stuff!!!)
Such a standard would open up the whole game to a lot more applications and hopefully Amiga users. I would be great to be able to, as tricly said, release software that is OpenAmiga compatible and know that it will include a version that will work on your system!!! :-)
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Hmmm.
I like the basis behind the idea but I think you will have a problem choosing either CyberGFX or Picasso96 "standards" as neither are particularly open or within our domain to control. Plus I think you get into the Cyber vs Picasso debate. Given you have made the decision to throw away WOS and PUP may I suggest you throw away P96 and CGFX?
Also including MUI will cause similar strains. What would be more useful is if you just stuck to the AOS3.1 API as being the open standard revision #1 and then allow other bodies to submit revisions to that for sound, graphics and higher level interfaces.
This forces subcommittees to get the political and technical issues out of the way.
Sort of the way that CORBA is handled by OMG.
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Nice initiative.
Realistic mode ON
This will die in envy and intentional wrongdoings.
Realistic mode OFF
Having such a system, kept clean and used by all participants with good will and intentions - ehh, uhh... Sorry, my imagination fails me :-)
I have some recollections that I saw some posts discussing the low level keyboard layout, where MOS developers decided to use AROS or Amithlon "standard"? (precedents)
Setting up standards is a fine idea. I'd even dare to entrust AROS developers with that.
This should be decided by the Community not the AmigaOS clone teams
Mention THE company too. ZICO specification... There are still no ZICO compilant devices... Hope this initiative will have better results, and will be better maintained.
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The website is on its way!
http://openamiga.tk
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@Warface
Exactly. Thats why Im suggesting to throw everything out apart from what is in AOS3.1 and anything new that comes in should not be one or the other of the contencious subsystems in popular use.
This would mean to adhere to the standard might be just a matter of an API which is glue code to an underlying subsystem like CGFX or its the excuse to do a completely new implementation rectifying all those design and implementation flaws....
However I too am skeptical about the practicality of this idea.
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DaveP wrote:
Hmmm.
I like the basis behind the idea but I think you will have a problem choosing either CyberGFX or Picasso96 "standards" as neither are particularly open or within our domain to control. Plus I think you get into the Cyber vs Picasso debate. Given you have made the decision to throw away WOS and PUP may I suggest you throw away P96 and CGFX?
Also including MUI will cause similar strains. What would be more useful is if you just stuck to the AOS3.1 API as being the open standard revision #1 and then allow other bodies to submit revisions to that for sound, graphics and higher level interfaces.
This forces subcommittees to get the political and technical issues out of the way.
Sort of the way that CORBA is handled by OMG.
Paccasso96, is CGX compatible... THat's why I went with CGX :-o
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Thats true, but imperfectly so. But the point is do you remember the fora flamewars about P96 vs CGFX?
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Exactly. Thats why Im suggesting to throw everything out apart from what is in AOS3.1 and anything new that comes in should not be one or the other of the contencious subsystems in popular use.
I agree with CGX/P96 and MUI/Reaction independency. And I admit, I have no idea how to set standards that fit and favour both.
However, we can avoid reinventing the wheel and having different standards if we standardise the lowest level standards. (Like standardizing the raw keycodes for certain keys which are not available on the classic amiga, having the same OS functions for extra mouse keys in each alternative, etc.)
We have some precedents what we can use/integrate into the new OSes. Some need changes, some are good as they are.
Amithlon and AROS has experience with standard, PC world hardwares, while MOS and AmigaOS4 is just a follower. Having different standards for MOS and AmigaOS4 than AROS/Amithlon in low level hardware handling may lead to irrepairable "standard" issues.
As both OSes are still in a maturing phase, it's easier to set the standards now, than later.
Agreement from all sides is needed though.
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Sod the low level stuff, it's the High Level things that need standardising between the platform IMHO. Same API's across platform is a lot easier.
In fact lets sod CGX/P96, and just go SDL/MESA. No problems then, as long as the host OS redirects it's SDL/GL calls to whatever lowlevel GFX device driver correctly then why should we care as developers?
the higher we abstract things the easier this will become IMHO.
Same goes for AHI too.
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Yep, but you have to go low enough such that behavioral aspects are consistent.
Where that is, I don't know. :-)
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I dont think this will work, all Amiga-like systems are in heavy development and setting these "standards" may risk the momentum.
I also believe that at this time, we need to let the devs do their thing, implementing the things they feel is necessary for the continuation of their respective systems.
On the other hand, i do not mind standards for stuff like office documents and the like that may encourage cross platform communications, but that is something spanning over all computer systems.
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Very nice proposal. I'd have to go with mdma on the lowlevel abstraction. that way it'll also be up to the developers of the platform to optimize code paths instead of laying this as a burden on the standard.
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Well that is why the standards need to start with a portable subset, which may risk not being able to do certain things:
1. Music/sound.
2. Open custom screens.
This basically returns us to the OS3.1 API which is there already, in fact less than that because we are ignoring calls to screens and the like that would tie us to AGA, P96, CGX whatever - so we are basically looking at apps that open on the workbench screen.
Later revisions can tackle common apis for the bits that have to be sliced open. But as a developer you know that if you code for the portable subset, its going to work.
Problem is, how to "open" a proprietry API like AOS? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Actually the initial list is fine.
All of these standards are supported everywhere.
MUI: MOS, OS4, Zune on AROS.
CGX API: MOS, AOS4 through P96's CGX emul,
dunno about AROS.
AHI: everwhere
BSDSocket: Everywhere
SDL: Everywhere.
OGL: soon to be everywhere.
I think that the ELF executable format should be added,
it's used by both OS4 and MOS.
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Surely it is too late for this? Aros, Mos, and Aos have all been developed independently. I don't know the specific details but surely extentions to the core library APIs have already been written? Wouldn't going back to an older standard (3.1 API) as a base be a step backwards?
I may be missing the point here, so please enlighten me.
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SidMan wrote:
Surely it is too late for this? Aros, Mos, and Aos have all been developed independently. I don't know the specific details but surely extentions to the core library APIs have already been written? Wouldn't going back to an older standard (3.1 API) as a base be a step backwards?
I may be missing the point here, so please enlighten me.
Not really, when I made the initial list I simply looked for the Common API's that exist in all the current solutions (Yes, we should include ELF too!).
So in reality the standard is already there, I just want to put a nice shiny sign on it so we can all see it and so that developers know it's there and that the OS teams make sure they don't deviate too far from it!!!
As I said it's pretty much all in place, we just need to protect it!!! :-)
-Edit- AmigaOS 3.1 was chosen by me because it is what all the existing solutions are based on... thus it is the lowest common denominator... The only Wild card is AOS4, I have not idea if they've messed about with the API or not. But if they plan to run 68K apps (which will assume 3.1), I will assume £.1 is supported. :-D
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AmiGR wrote:
Actually the initial list is fine.
All of these standards are supported everywhere.
MUI: MOS, OS4, Zune on AROS.
CGX API: MOS, AOS4 through P96's CGX emul,
dunno about AROS.
AHI: everwhere
BSDSocket: Everywhere
SDL: Everywhere.
OGL: soon to be everywhere.
I think that the ELF executable format should be added,
it's used by both OS4 and MOS.
Yup AROS has the CGX API :-), and all the others too... except OpenGL (planned, and an important part of SDL) and the BSDSocket (comming soon TM)... :-P
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So basically what you are saying is that you want AROS to be the reference implementation of a standard that is basically the AROS design documents?
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DaveP wrote:
So basically what you are saying is that you want AROS to be the reference implementation of a standard that is basically the AROS design documents?
Not at all, as I've pointed out AROS doesn't yet support all those API's yet but if we set the Bar high, then AROS will reach it. :-)
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So basically what you are saying is that you want AROS to be the reference implementation of a standard that is basically the AROS design documents?
Practically... Why not? AmigaONE/Pegasos is 80-90% is a PC like platform, apart from the CPU and the Articia chip. Where AROS has more experience.
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No reason why not. Should be interesting. :-)
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http://openamiga.tk (http://openamiga.tk) is up and running. Anyone who's handy with HTML want to volunteer to do something better than the geocities autogenerated page? :-D
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@ bloodline
That's a very good idea! Aim high and don't invent the wheel once again; start where we are today (the common components you mention) and build upon that.
One platform, three (or more in the future?) OS distributions. :-)
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mdma wrote:
http://openamiga.tk (http://openamiga.tk) is up and running. Anyone who's handy with HTML want to volunteer to do something better than the geocities autogenerated page? :-D
You might want to pop a list of the Standard APIs on the site.
The 3 OS solutions should have compatible API's to the ones in this list as standard.
And we can modify and amend that list if needed.
Kernel: AmigaOS 3.1
Graphics: Cybergraphics
Audio: AHI
TCP/IP: BSDSocket
SDL: Media Layer
3D: OpenGL
File Format: ELF
GUI Tool Kit: MUI? (I know some would be against this)
C compiler: GCC
um... and any else?
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If only the hardware could be a common factor too (thinking about the Pegasos). But who knows what might happen in a near future! ;-)
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DaveP wrote:
I like the basis behind the idea but I think you will have a problem choosing either CyberGFX or Picasso96 "standards" as neither are particularly open or within our domain to control. Plus I think you get into the Cyber vs Picasso debate. Given you have made the decision to throw away WOS and PUP may I suggest you throw away P96 and CGFX?
Surely adding the words "Compatible API" here somewhere solves that problem? eg:
CyberGFX Compatible API
P96 is compatible with the CyberGFX API so theres no problem there...
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bloodline wrote:
mdma wrote:
http://openamiga.tk (http://openamiga.tk) is up and running. Anyone who's handy with HTML want to volunteer to do something better than the geocities autogenerated page? :-D
You might want to pop a list of the Standard APIs on the site.
The 3 OS solutions should have compatible API's to the ones in this list as standard.
And we can modify and amend that list if needed.
Kernel: AmigaOS 3.1
Graphics: Cybergraphics
Audio: AHI
TCP/IP: BSDSocket
SDL: Media Layer
3D: OpenGL
File Format: ELF
GUI Tool Kit: MUI? (I know some would be against this)
um... and any else?
Mon HTML est tres merde, monsieur. I can add the common API's to the current site, but I need someone with HTML skills to make something pretty! :-D
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Its a good idea would benefit all. :-)
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Almost forgot GCC!!!!!
-Edit- I personally think GCC should be the standard development compiler for the platform, not because it's the best, but becuase it is free, uptodate, easily portable and it runs on almost anythinging :-)
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I can do html and servlet programming and that sort of stuff, but i suck at designing eyecandy. if you can get an artist to do the design, i can code it.
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I like the basis behind the idea but I think you will have a problem choosing either CyberGFX or Picasso96 "standards" as neither are particularly open or within our domain to control.
I would point out here that Picasso96 can run CyberGFX API apps, so using CyberGFX allows Picasso96-based apps to work as well. (Much like how an XLib replacement is used for QNX to allow it to meet POSIX)
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filson wrote:
I can do html and servlet programming and that sort of stuff, but i suck at designing eyecandy. if you can get an artist to do the design, i can code it.
That's the spirit, if we all muck in it will come along!!!
BTW are you a guy or a girl? :-D I never did get an answer... :-?
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@bloodline
Interesting, idea. Hopefully politics don't come into play :-( .
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Bodie wrote:
@bloodline
Interesting, idea. Hopefully politics don't come into play :-( .
My idea, my idea ! ;-)
Joking apart, politics shouldn't come into it as developing apps that conform to the openamiga standard, is completely voluntary. No one's forcing you to do it if you don't want.
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mdma wrote:
Bodie wrote:
@bloodline
Interesting, idea. Hopefully politics don't come into play :-( .
My idea, my idea ! ;-)
Joking apart, politics shouldn't come into it as developing apps that conform to the openamiga standard, is completely voluntary. No one's forcing you to do it if you don't want.
Ineed, it's just a specification... I'm thinking that the Phoenix Greenboy might want to join us? ;-)
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BTW are you a guy or a girl? I never did get an answer...
does it make a difference :-D
ok, here's the cut: designers are usualy women, coders are usualy guys (with a few exceptions -TM).
Now i'm a coder, so you do the math :-D
Never underestimate the power of suggestion :-D :-D :-D
filson is a concatenation of my first and last name, where as my first name is Filip. So yes, I'm a guy.
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@bloodline
Two steps ahead of you, already posted it to the phoenix list to get his attention.
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downix wrote:
@bloodline
Two steps ahead of you, already posted it to the phoenix list to get his attention.
I'm not on the ball today, beaten to it again. It must be these dyhydrocodeine painkillers i'm on. My head is up my arse ATM!! ;-)
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mdma, can you give me access to the web code?
It doesn't work under mozilla 1.4. that wont do much for an open standards page :-)
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filson wrote:
BTW are you a guy or a girl? I never did get an answer...
does it make a difference :-D
ok, here's the cut: designers are usualy women, coders are usualy guys (with a few exceptions -TM).
Now i'm a coder, so you do the math :-D
Never underestimate the power of suggestion :-D :-D :-D
filson is a concatenation of my first and last name, where as my first name is Filip. So yes, I'm a guy.
It makes no difference at all!!! since you asked the question "How do you know I'm a guy" It's been bugging me :-D
@Downix
Good move, that's cool :-)
This is really taking shape, I hope we can knock all these flame wars on the head.
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Is there any reason why OpenGL 1.2 is mentioned?
Not being much of a gfx programmer I'm just currious why the spec isn't OpenGL 1.4.
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filson wrote:
Is there any reason why OpenGL 1.2 is mentioned?
Not being much of a gfx programmer I'm just currious why the spec isn't OpenGL 1.4.
We haven't decided base versions yet!!! Only just the common APIs... :-D
But you are right, we will have to decide what the minimum version of each API must be... But that is what the OpenAmiga is all about :-P
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We don't have to declare support for the extensions if thats to much of a huste to implement but at least OGL 1.3 would be nice. That way we could also make an effort against ports of old api's that never gets updated. but hey, thats just me ranting ;-)
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@mdma
Here's a little logo I just did in the GIMP:
(http://www.yourdreamnet.co.uk/amigacentre/openamiga.jpg)
I'm not the best at HTML or graphics, but I'll help if you want it.
---edit----
OK - just saw the post below - better leave this to the pros :-D
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filson wrote:
mdma, can you give me access to the web code?
It doesn't work under mozilla 1.4. that wont do much for an open standards page :-)
Damn geocities!! ;-)
I've PM'd you the login name and password. Do what you like to it, as it's bloody awful atm.
I'm thinking dark blues/purples, and the Amiga rainbow tick symbol. No boing ball, no blue butterfly, as we are impartial!
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alx wrote:
@mdma
Here's a little logo I just did in the GIMP:
(http://www.yourdreamnet.co.uk/amigacentre/openamiga.jpg)
I'm not the best at HTML or graphics, but I'll help if you want it.
F*ck me thats a cool logo! Forget what I said about the boing ball! ;-)
Filson, can you put the logo alx has done on the site?
Maybe we should have a competition on this site for the best logo? Winner gets good Karma? :-D
email your entries to mdma AT aros DOT org and i'll put them up on a site and setup a poll on here.
PNG format with max compression please, as it's a hotmail account! Not too big on the screen either please.
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Hmm, as long as this doesn't become another "I've got an idea ... - Yeah that was a great idea, let's do something with this - We need a WEBPAGE! - Yeah and a logo! - And a contest! - And a paypal account! - and ...", and then it stops there. Webpages and logos are nice, but perhaps it is not the key issue this early in development?
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takemehomegrandma wrote:
Hmm, as long as this doesn't become another "I've got an idea ... - Yeah that was a great idea, let's do something with this - We need a WEBPAGE! - Yeah and a logo! - And a contest! - And a paypal account! - and ...", and then it stops there. Webpages and logos are nice, but perhaps it is not the key issue this early in development?
Yeah, that's about as far as most things get, but getting this far is better than just a bunch of people moaning... at least something is happening!!!!
I love the logo... but you kinda forgot x86 :-D I personally see that as a big part of the platforms future along with the new IBM PPCs...
If linux can exist across CPU, damnit, so can we!!!
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takemehomegrandma wrote:
Hmm, as long as this doesn't become another "I've got an idea ... - Yeah that was a great idea, let's do something with this - We need a WEBPAGE! - Yeah and a logo! - And a contest! - And a paypal account! - and ...", and then it stops there. Webpages and logos are nice, but perhaps it is not the key issue this early in development?
I think my 7/8 years of professional software development may come in handy here, and as I'm now in marketing also (Secondment, I got bored just coding), things should be organized well. And hopefully Greenboy from Phoenix will come on board.
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Can somebody please let me in on the loop here? There's a lot of termonology that I'm uncertain of:
MUI, CGX, BSDSocket, ELF......
And if you guys are gonna define a standard for OpenGL, why not also include Direct 3D?
And does ISO and IEEE mean anything for this discussion / idea?
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NewRevolution wrote:
Can somebody please let me in on the loop here? There's a lot of termonology that I'm uncertain of:
MUI, CGX, BSDSocket, ELF......
And if you guys are gonna define a standard for OpenGL, why not also include Direct 3D?
And does ISO and IEEE mean anything for this discussion / idea?
We are not definind a standard for OpenGL, we are defining a set of standards for amig/amiga-compatible programmers to voluntarily adhere to when developing their software, so that their apps will work across all OS platforms with no change.
RE: Direct3D - When did MS opensource their API? ;-)
RE: ISO and IEEE. Steady on! We've only just started!
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NewRevolution wrote:
Can somebody please let me in on the loop here? There's a lot of termonology that I'm uncertain of:
MUI, CGX, BSDSocket, ELF......
And if you guys are gonna define a standard for OpenGL, why not also include Direct 3D?
And does ISO and IEEE mean anything for this discussion / idea?
The Standards were based on what already exists across the platform... DirectX does not exist, it is M$ proprietory code and we can't have it... so we'll have to cross that one off the list.
In one of my earlier posts I explained what each API related to...
AHI is an Audio specification for example, cgx is a graphics one...
ISO and EEEE are not in discussion here, they are standards but not really to do with APIs
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MUI: Magic User Interface - the user interface libraries which a lot of Amiga software (particularly internet software) is based. Software built around the MUI classes can look better, have a more configurable UI, and have new gadgets.
CGX - Cybergraphics - a system that allows the Amiga's graphics to be retargeted to a graphics card. The other one often used is P96 (Picasso 96).
BSDSocket: Standard for networking. Hardly used it myself.
ELF: Don't know much, but AFAIK it's a format for executable files (programs).
Direct3D isn't there as it's M$ only technology, only on windoze. OpenGL is used on many other OSes (All Amiga-type OSes, Linux etc) and there is no point in having 2 3D APIs in a standard really.
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OpenAmiga is the best idea i have heard of ages! too bad im not a coder or graphic artist, then i would have contributed heavily to this project ;-)
But i have many great ideas to contribute with! :-D
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Thanks!
I understand there are a lot of coders here. I'm no hardcore coder nor a graphical artis (though I do both) so I guess I can't participate too much either.
But, if new "standards" are to be made, document it - and do it carefully. Maybe use CVS? And for classes ans such, use UML diagrams? UML diagram are easy for system designers to understand, rather than trying to read the code.
If MorphOS and Amiga Inc is wants to adopt these ideas, and unless they all are coders, I think having some propper diagrams to mach the code will help making everything a bit more systematicall and "readable"
Anyway - a fantastic initiative guys! It looks like this might go somewhere. :-D
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well then, you do what you feel you can contribute with, grandma. everything has to start somewhere.
would anyone throw a fit if i added a background of bloks of random "ant tracks" like it is now on the logo. its not that it looks very good but the background on the logo has a hard time trying to blend in with the rest of the page. or maybe if it was possible to get the anttracks in an oval shape with the remaining area set to transparent?
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re: alx
Here's a little logo I just did in the GIMP:
You did that in the GIMP ?!?!?!?
You must have better resource material than
"Grokking the GIMP"
where to find such resource, where to find.......
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@DethKnight
I use the Gimp all of the time. Did a lot of the original pegasos-usa.com and genesi-support.com graphics in it (before Andre' stepped in, as he's the pro gfx artist).
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Speaking of 'like the BSDs,' I'd have to argue that, from an outside perspective, AROS appears hobbled by adherence to its own design principles. That is- a lot of good thought has been put into the organization of the system as a whole, but since commits are held to that standard, Good Thought has to be put in. Meanwhile, the tree was held private for a long time, and in general, the whole process of involvement has been somewhat obfuscated by the desire to keep the project 'steered' and manageable.
The problem is, there's no easy starting point to bring code into the Amiga fold.
Now, I'm just blathering at random, but does an AROS Research OS seem too farfetched? That is, an experimental NetBSD to AROS's "Production System,*" held to the barest minimum technical requirements - commits will be accepted so long as they pass Tinderbox? With an accompanying cvsweb and other 'convenience features' for public involvement, it seems it could make a good 'playground' for projects and ideas that could then roll back to AROS ("Keepers of the API") or other systems at the discretion of those projects' maintainers?
I'm not sure what such a build would look like; it'd probably be a munge, maybe with a lot of BSD warts (the AROS license is a bit complex to wrap one's head around, but I don't *think* there's a conflict there) ... but if it grew enough warts to make it easier for external projects to build, those builds could then be that much closer to running on 'pure' AROS, OS4 or MOS...
Perhaps there'd need to be a little more restriction to ensure things diverge beneficially- maybe the distribution should stay synched with AROS exec and/or certain base libraries(?), to ensure the free-for-alled development would maintain the 'genetic' relationship to bring the above to pass... but I'm just sketching here, not in any way trying to make a full proposal. (I'll readily admit I've never had the time and resources to play with AROS, let alone flip through the source!)
A lot has happened since the project was founded... This certainly wouldn't be a magic bullet, especially after all this time, but I don't think it's deniable that more work would've happened if a miracle happened, things went GPL, and the Slashdot crowd had somehow been made to be interested. That such work wouldn't have upheld the goals of the project as well is also obvious- so the question is, "Why not have two projects?" (I know the answer is, of course, "Fine, host it," and I'm certainly not equipped for that... but maybe someone else is?)
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*Or in this case, "Reference Implementation," given the focus on architectural purity.
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I uploaded the new looks to the http://openamiga.tk
Give me some feedback if you like.
the issues with mozilla seems to be with the .tk domain.
don't exactly know why but maybe someone knows. i'll post when it's fixed.
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filson wrote:
I uploaded the new looks to the http://openamiga.tk
Give me some feedback if you like.
the issues with mozilla seems to be with the .tk domain.
don't exactly know why but maybe someone knows. i'll post when it's fixed.
It works fine on Mozilla 1.3 under linux for me.
We now have a new host for the website, as someone has donated space and bandwidth to us. I can't reveal who at the moment.
Very nice design filson. Well done!
Check your PM's btw for the new hosting details.
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I cannot seem to get to the page on Firebird or IE - do you know what the actual address is?
This is the Server Administrator™ default page.
If you see this page it means:
1) hosting for this domain is not configured
or
2) there's no such domain registered in Plesk.
For more information please contact webmaster@1t3.com
BTW I'll give you the faded logo ASAP.
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it's now been submitted to www.amiga.dk aswell.
hopefully it won't trash your mailbox, mdma :-D
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The webpage dont work for me :-?
Maybe it`s not supposed to work with WinXP and IE6 :-D
------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the Server Administrator™ default page.
If you see this page it means:
1) hosting for this domain is not configured
or
2) there's no such domain registered in Plesk.
For more information please contact webmaster@1t3.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is the message i get.
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The OpenAmiga platform is a great idea, but it probably will not work. Simply because we are not using an 'open' OS in the same way as the BSD or Linux people are.
The difference is that we have a company/companies behind the Amiga (which has advantages of its own) and basiclyit is the company who decided where the Amiga will go next.
BSD and Linux does not have this, because those OS's are a community effort, and the community itself decides which is the best route. Like Linus has said multiple times - if two ideas do the same thing, i let them both live and let the community decide which one will be adopted.
Perhaps somebody will come up with 'binary compatibility layers' which allows you to run applications from MOS on AOS etc. that looks like a more 'realistic' idea.
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restore2003 wrote:
The webpage dont work for me :-?
Maybe it`s not supposed to work with WinXP and IE6 :-D
------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the Server Administrator™ default page.
If you see this page it means:
1) hosting for this domain is not configured
or
2) there's no such domain registered in Plesk.
For more information please contact webmaster@1t3.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is the message i get.
Thats coz i've just moved the openamiga.tk to the new host.
try http://www.geocities.com/openamiga
until filson moves the pages to the new server.
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mrsad wrote:
The OpenAmiga platform is a great idea, but it probably will not work.
POSIX anyone?
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mrsad wrote:
The OpenAmiga platform is a great idea, but it probably will not work. Simply because we are not using an 'open' OS in the same way as the BSD or Linux people are.
AROS anyone? :-)
-Edit- Your comments are valid, but only if there was no open source alternative! But there is (AROS), and one would hope that Competition with a Free alternative will make Amiga Inc. and the MOS team put in more work and try to make better systems.
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Great thinking everyone.
It makes a refreshing change to see us pulling in the same direction for a change!!
Hell, it's great to see a thread going over 60 posts without a flame in sight!! :-D
This is a really good idea, nice one guys.
Graham C
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Crumpster wrote:
Great thinking everyone.
It makes a refreshing change to see us pulling in the same direction for a change!!
Hell, it's great to see a thread going over 60 posts without a flame in sight!! :-D
This is a really good idea, nice one guys.
Graham C
Well, it's about time!!! :-D
I hope this will allow the Community to tell the companies in power what they really want.
We all want a standard, we know that we need a standard, developers want standards, users need stardards...
I'm really pleased, I'm sure it can work. :-o
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We all want a standard, we know that we need a standard, developers want standards, users need stardards...
= More apps for everyone :-) You will not have to make specific versions (only when it is very necessary) for each OS.
AmigaOS 4.x, MorphOS and Aros will be mutually benefited. For example a game that makes i.e. Epic will run or will be very easily ported in all of them. ;-)
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bloodline wrote:
Crumpster wrote:
Great thinking everyone.
It makes a refreshing change to see us pulling in the same direction for a change!!
Hell, it's great to see a thread going over 60 posts without a flame in sight!! :-D
This is a really good idea, nice one guys.
Graham C
Well, it's about time!!! :-D
I hope this will allow the Community to tell the companies in power what they really want.
We all want a standard, we know that we need a standard, developers want standards, users need stardards...
I'm really pleased, I'm sure it can work. :-o
If we all get behind it, then there will be no stopping it. Momentum is picking up. We've had nearly 200 hits to the website since 2 o'clock BST
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Dagon wrote:
We all want a standard, we know that we need a standard, developers want standards, users need stardards...
= More apps for everyone :-) You will not have to make specific versions (only when it is very necessary) for each OS.
AmigaOS 4.x, MorphOS and Aros will be mutually benefited. For example a game that makes i.e. Epic will run or will be very easily ported in all of them. ;-)
That's the key, easy portability. If all a developer has to do is change the compiler includes directory or the CPU type and then just recompile his app/game. No modifications to his source needed, then he is more inclined to port it! :-)
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I'd note, POSIX doesn't allow apps to just run from platform to platform, it just gives a basic set of rules to allow the easy porting from one to the other.
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I'd just like to say I think this is an excellent initiative, and as a hopeful amiga developer to be I will be paying attention to what you guys come up with. I wish everyone involved lots of luck working out a good model for programmers to work to.
Now to business...
You guys have got to have a mascot right? :-)
I was particularly bored earlier and in the mood for some digital doodling. I'm no artist, but I thought about the concept of open amiga and the open boing and came up with this chap...
(http://zudobug.ababcrab.com/images/boingbeast.png)
Now I know what you are thinking... But maybe a raytraced version of this, or similar, could look pretty cool :-)
Anyway, it's just a bit of fun. Hope it at least makes you laugh. Or worry about my sanity. np ;-)
Ta peeps,
-zudo
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bloodline : InDeed, it's just a specification... I'm thinking that the Phoenix Greenboy might want to join us?
How nice of you to think of me. I saw this thread late last night but by the time I was caught up with last week's email I was too tired to post here.
But waking, I find myself still thinking as devil's advocate. I was pushing for something like this even before 1999 when Phoenix was born, having watched de facto standards that were freely offered up continue to be stepped around, not for technical inferiority in particular - but because competitors seemed unable to work with a cooperative attitude. And then there are new areas and APIs that we need to have a more complete platform for both users and developers...
What has changed? Is there now a will to make something like this happen, is it practical now to think beyond AOS 3.1 backwards compatibility - and how will that impact time spent on innovation by respective efforts? Is there enough energy available without sidetracking crucial developments? Will time spent on this be rewarded? ... Or will it degenerate for all involved as time goes by, and leave an all-too-familiar sour taste?
I'm sure I sound like a cynic, but the fact that I woke up thinking about this issue should tell you I don't let the cynicism of my observations completely close my mind. As caffiene begins to revive my system, I'd honestly like to feel that discussion here and elsewhere indicates that it is possible to go forward in such a fashion.
I'll read further into the thread and see what THAT does ; }
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Matt, that's absolutely supurb!
If the momentum can be kept up, then things might just turn around. As you know if there's anything I can do, I'll help any way I can.
This has brightend up what was a dull day :-)
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mdma : POSIX anyone?
I wish! POSIX compliance has been wonderful for QNX because it opens the door for developers who are already working with it. They can bring projects over to QNX, do ports, be quickly able to work with it.
At the same time, QNX actually has areas it has better ways of doing some things, and POSIX is actually a step backwards from the native API. Lots of the POSIX ports actually seem like shovelware compared to the native programs.
Amiga actually has a major problem or three at the dinner table of POSIX compliance. I mean, where's that fork? ; }
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zudobug wrote:
I'd just like to say I think this is an excellent initiative, and as a hopeful amiga developer to be I will be paying attention to what you guys come up with. I wish everyone involved lots of luck working out a good model for programmers to work to.
Now to business...
You guys have got to have a mascot right? :-)
I was particularly bored earlier and in the mood for some digital doodling. I'm no artist, but I thought about the concept of open amiga and the open boing and came up with this chap...
(http://zudobug.ababcrab.com/images/boingbeast.png)
Now I know what you are thinking... But maybe a raytraced version of this, or similar, could look pretty cool :-)
Anyway, it's just a bit of fun. Hope it at least makes you laugh. Or worry about my sanity. np ;-)
Ta peeps,
-zudo
nice work!
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greenboy wrote:
bloodline : InDeed, it's just a specification... I'm thinking that the Phoenix Greenboy might want to join us?
How nice of you to think of me. I saw this thread late last night but by the time I was caught up with last week's email I was too tired to post here.
But waking, I find myself still thinking as devil's advocate. I was pushing for something like this even before 1999 when Phoenix was born, having watched de facto standards that were freely offered up continue to be stepped around, not for technical inferiority in particular - but because competitors seemed unable to work with a cooperative attitude. And then there are new areas and APIs that we need to have a more complete platform for both users and developers...
What has changed? Is there now a will to make something like this happen, is it practical now to think beyond AOS 3.1 backwards compatibility - and how will that impact time spent on innovation by respective efforts? Is there enough energy available without sidetracking crucial developments? Will time spent on this be rewarded? ... Or will it degenerate for all involved as time goes by, and leave an all-too-familiar sour taste?
I'm sure I sound like a cynic, but the fact that I woke up thinking about this issue should tell you I don't let the cynicism of my observations completely close my mind. As caffiene begins to revive my system, I'd honestly like to feel that discussion here and elsewhere indicates that it is possible to go forward in such a fashion.
I'll read further into the thread and see what THAT does ; }
I've already had the president of a games company offer help Greenboy. Things are definately looking up I think.
RE:POSIX
I meant OpenAmiga as a standard to Amiga like POSIX is to UNIX. Although POSIX compliance in OpenAmiga would be brilliant! :-D
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For the mascot, ya forgot the butterfly wings and fur!
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downix wrote:
For the mascot, ya forgot the butterfly wings and fur!
And the pussy cat!!!! :-D
-Edit- Well, this has certainly come quite a way since Mdma and myself started this little "rant" :-D
The website actually looks cool, and people are sitting up and taking notice!?!?! All in the space of a few hours...
I think many people can see the advantages to more users, more developers and more software :-D
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I've submitted a news item with the OpenAmiga details to Eugenia at osnews.com.
Hopefully we'll get some good feedback.
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Was the POSIX and MUI definite additions to the standard or just suggestions?
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bloodline wrote:
downix wrote:
For the mascot, ya forgot the butterfly wings and fur!
And the pussy cat!!!! :-D
Like I can draw those things... hehehe.
Cheers :-)
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bloodline wrote:
downix wrote:
For the mascot, ya forgot the butterfly wings and fur!
And the pussy cat!!!! :-D
A furry pussy with wings?
Sounds like rag week! ;-)
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Well POSIX needs to be thought out... as to the best solution so not yet...
But MUI is definately yes :-)
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downix : For the mascot, ya forgot the butterfly wings and fur!
There's a little example for ya! Is the Boing ball going to be found acceptable by owners of all platforms? I'm already wondering this as I look at Eric Schwartz's mascot for Amizilla, which Genesi and Phoenix are considering donating to. Nobdy likes to feel they are second-class citizens but making a symbol that is inclusive can be rather tricky ; }
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What version of GCC would it then be?
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greenboy wrote:
downix : For the mascot, ya forgot the butterfly wings and fur!
There's a little example for ya! Is the Boing ball going to be found acceptable by owners of all platforms? I'm already wondering this as I look at Eric Schwartz's mascot for Amizilla, which Genesi and Phoenix are considering donating to. Nobdy likes to feel they are second-class citizens but making a symbol that is inclusive can be rather tricky ; }
Hence my suggestion of the Amiga Rainbow tick.
I don't think Jay wouldn't mind if he was still with us! :-D
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I can live with a Boing Ball, or a rainbow checkmark.
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downix wrote:
I can live with a Boing Ball, or a rainbow checkmark.
Arrrrrrrrghhhhhh.... evn the humble rainbow tick wil cause a division in the community!
I say tomato, you say tomato
I say tick, you checkmark
Lets call the whole thing o............ ;-)
-edit-
Nice signature downix! :lol:
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I don't think we need to specify what compiler a developer should use.
It's a personal thing, just like what aftershave you wear. ;-)
What if someone wants to use a lnaguage other than C, but they write their app to be 100% OpenAmiga compliant in everyother respect?
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mdma wrote:
I don't think we need to specify what compiler a developer should use.
It's a personal thing, just like what aftershave you wear. ;-)
What if someone wants to use a lnaguage other than C, but they write their app to be 100% OpenAmiga compliant in everyother respect?
Sure but we need to define a standard, that will work across theboard... such is the way of standards :-)
If some one write using say VBCC, ten that might not exist on another plat form, remdering the whole point of this excercise uselss :-(
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downix wrote:
For the mascot, ya forgot the butterfly wings and fur!
Some sort of chimera would probably be apropos...
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Floid wrote:
downix wrote:
For the mascot, ya forgot the butterfly wings and fur!
Some sort of chimera would probably be apropos...
Sod it, Someone just render a Black and white Checkmark tick that look like pressed Aluminium... sort of like the new Apple logo...
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Read THS (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1055333700&category=web&number=15#comment) and THIS TOO (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1055333700&category=web&number=18#comment) and tell me if it is possible for developers to all embrace the same Initiative.
Actually, about a week ago I had talked to a developer who is both in Phoenix and on the Open AWeb team, and he came back to me with a No Go on my query of whether the AWeb team would like to present themselves as a participant. I queried because I wanted to see them involved so that I could offer up a matching donation to Amizilla with more confidence that a browser would come out the other end.
Nobody else from that team even bothered write me. I dunno, maybe I was never mentioned as the originator of the query - or maybe I WAS, and that made it impossible to talk about it ; } ...Either way, it doesn't make the picture look rosy for getting all qualified parties speaking WITH instead of TO each other, and dicsussing issues and finding common solutions.
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In the meantime, I've just sent filson a newer version of the logo with a MorphOS butterfly - unfortunately I haven't got the AROS mascot on, though I might try later.
BTW what category would this go under in OSNews? Amiga or MorphOS wouldn't really be right. :-?
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greenboy wrote:
Read THS (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1055333700&category=web&number=15#comment) and THIS TOO (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1055333700&category=web&number=18#comment) and tell me if it is possible for developers to all embrace the same Initiative.
Actually, about a week ago I had talked to a developer who is both in Phoenix and on the Open AWeb team, and he came back to me with a No Go on my query of whether the AWeb team would like to present themselves as a participant. I queried because I wanted to see them involved so that I could offer up a matching donation to Amizilla with more confidence that a browser would come out the other end.
Nobody else from that team even bothered write me. I dunno, maybe I was never mentioned as the originator of the query - or maybe I WAS, and that made it impossible to talk about it ; } ...Either way, it doesn't make the picture look rosy for getting all qualified parties speaking WITH instead of TO each other, and dicsussing issues and finding common solutions.
Lets keep this in perspective... All we are doing is defining a set of minimum standards which if develoeprs follow (and most already do wirthout realising it, due to the standards we have chosen) then it will be easy to port their apps from one platform to another... we don;t really ask anything else of them.
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alx wrote:
In the meantime, I've just sent filson a newer version of the logo with a MorphOS butterfly - unfortunately I haven't got the AROS mascot on, though I might try later.
BTW what category would this go under in OSNews? Amiga or MorphOS wouldn't really be right. :-?
It's gone up under Amiga news.
Someone is already modding down trolls, they're bloody quick today!
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Well, one could always use a Phoenix logo (we have a new minimalist logo we are considering as replacement for numerous variations on the old one, as well) ; }
- After all, Phoenix was supposed to be about developers crossing boundaries (only some seem able to do this, historically), has welcomed developers from many efforts (but most see another platform besides their own represented and immediately run away, maybe even discouraging others from getting involved - this also has historical precedents).
Honestly, of all the people who have stayed in Phoenix, or come and gone, I have seen very few who could put partisanship aside long enough to actually contribute to a greater common good (though some tried in spite of the pressures and underlying distrust and animosity). By default Phoenix has had to become a one-platform house a couple of times now (so maybe it isn't even realistic to think any other thing could happen) ...
I was thrilled to see Genesi interested in Phoenix and also investing in running multiple OSes on the Pegasos because I felt that it was healthier to have the diversity. But I still see so many people sign up and expect me and a few others somehow deliver them miracles without they themselves putting efforts in to build a structure and mindset and attitude that would make much greater things possible in terms of cooperative strength and sharing the load.
You could say that sometimes I feel I've seen more than I wanted to of human nature ; }
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Ok so this seems to be more than a nice idea. In theory it should be able to work. The only problem I can see is that some of the APIs are for commerical products, but there are always ways around that. Now what is needed is for someone to explain exactly how it WILL work. We need someone to come up with a detailed plan and proposal to put forward to the current players.
The next stage after that will be to present the whole OpenAmiga initative to the AROS team, Genesi/Pheonix and Hyperion/Amiga and get them to sign up to it.
@Greenboy
This would be perfect for that progamming inititive I discussed with you.
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bloodline : Lets keep this in perspective... All we are doing is defining a set of minimum standards which if develoeprs follow (and most already do wirthout realising it, due to the standards we have chosen) then it will be easy to port their apps from one platform to another... we don;t really ask anything else of them.
I found the Amizilla thing rather relevant because standards are actually a majorly discussed issue in what gets ported, and how.
But I understand your point.
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Some sort of chimera would probably be apropos...
LOL! I was going to say that but you beat me to it! :-D
But still, all this talk focused on a logo and not actual development ;-)
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uncharted wrote:
Ok so this seems to be more than a nice idea. In theory it should be able to work. The only problem I can see is that some of the APIs are for commerical products, but there are always ways around that. Now what is needed is for someone to explain exactly how it WILL work. We need someone to come up with a detailed plan and proposal to put forward to the current players.
The next stage after that will be to present the whole OpenAmiga initative to the AROS team, Genesi/Pheonix and Hyperion/Amiga and get them to sign up to it.
@Greenboy
This would be perfect for that progamming inititive I discussed with you.
Well, AROS is the reason we can do this. It provides all the whole standard (it has free, opensource alternatives to the comercial APIs covered in the openamiga spec) in one free package.
-Edit- A detailed plan would be in essence: make sure MOS and Hyperion keep AOS3.1 compatibility and introduce extentions in a system friendly and API documented (ie, they can tell us what they are and how they should work, but not tell us how they did it)
The Other APIs need to have OpenSource alternatives only if they do not already exist on one of the platforms (they all do, and AROS has opensource version of those that are closed).
The Openamiga group needs to be able to make sure that all the system can provide a base standard functionality...
So we can only raise the base standard when all system are able to meet it, understand... Openamiga needs to do nothing outher than define what id the minimum that all thesystems can do.
The APIs I have proposed cover that minimum already, well almost (ie in the important areas) :-D
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uncharted wrote:
Ok so this seems to be more than a nice idea. In theory it should be able to work. The only problem I can see is that some of the APIs are for commerical products, but there are always ways around that. Now what is needed is for someone to explain exactly how it WILL work. We need someone to come up with a detailed plan and proposal to put forward to the current players.
The next stage after that will be to present the whole OpenAmiga initative to the AROS team, Genesi/Pheonix and Hyperion/Amiga and get them to sign up to it.
@Greenboy
This would be perfect for that progamming inititive I discussed with you.
We need a few big apps and alot of little apps to be OpenAmiga compliant before we can expect the big boys to even entertain the idea of signing up for it. Amizilla would be perfect.
-edit-
this is OUR community and if WE as DEVELOPERS and USERS demand OpenAmiga comliance from the apps we use,then market forces will dictate that the big boys will want to come on board. PEOPLE POWER
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Good luck guys :-) Keep the ball rolling!
Dave - signing off for a bit.
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...But don't take it wrong, everything I've said as devil's advocate: I applaud this effort.
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greenboy wrote:
...But don't take it wrong, everything I've said as devil's advocate: I applaud this effort.
:-D
Thanks!
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greenboy wrote:
...But don't take it wrong, everything I've said as devil's advocate: I applaud this effort.
IMHO, the hardest thing will not be developers... since they will be using these APIs anyway... the hard thing will be getting Hyperion and MOS to make sure they stick to the script and don't try any dirty tricks to introduce incompatibilities... one would hope the communities desire for standards would force them to compliance :-D
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bloodline wrote:
greenboy wrote:
...But don't take it wrong, everything I've said as devil's advocate: I applaud this effort.
IMHO, the hardest thing will not be developers... since they will be using these APIs anyway... the hard thing will be getting Hyperion and MOS to make sure they stick to the script and don't try any dirty tricks to introduce incompatibilities... one would hope the communities desire for standards would force them to compliance :-D
All I can say.. I'll wish you all working on this luck and lot of strength.. You'll need them a lot
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mdma wrote:
The website is on its way!
http://openamiga.tk
whats .tk?
why .tk?
why not .org?
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iamaboringperson wrote:
mdma wrote:
The website is on its way!
http://openamiga.tk
whats .tk?
why .tk?
why not .org?
.tk is free .org isn't!! :-D
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MDMA, you might want to make it clear on the website, that the choice of CGX was not in any way against P96... but simply that P96 uses the CGX API!!!
It seems many people are having a hard time grasping this concept even now... after 7 years!!! :-x
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Those are the kind of rivers running through the world that once made clear you only have muddy thinking to contend with ; }
Didn't Samuel Clemens often allude to this? ; }
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bloodline wrote:
MDMA, you might want to make it clear on the website, that the choice of CGX was not in any way against P96... but simply that P96 uses the CGX API!!!
It seems many people are having a hard time grasping this concept even now... after 7 years!!! :-x
You'd think "CGX v4 compatible" would be enough.
Some folk eh?
Have you had a gander at osnews yet? A certain fanboy is spouting off yet again! :-(
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i haven't looked yet but based on past performance I can sure guess who it is.
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Maybe it would be better to create a seperate section for ppl to look at if they were in doubt of the meaning of the specification.
It can easily become very messy if all things have to be explained all together with the specification. :-)
and it would make my life easier :-D :-D
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filson wrote:
Maybe it would be better to create a seperate section for ppl to look at if they were in doubt of the meaning of the specification.
It can easily become very messy if all things have to be explained all together with the specification. :-)
and it would make my life easier :-D :-D
Definately.
I'll knock up some draft text tommorow at lunch, and whenever the boss ain't looking!
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greenboy wrote:
i haven't looked yet but based on past performance I can sure guess who it is.
:lol:
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filson wrote:
Maybe it would be better to create a seperate section for ppl to look at if they were in doubt of the meaning of the specification.
It can easily become very messy if all things have to be explained all together with the specification. :-)
and it would make my life easier :-D :-D
I smell a FAQ coming up :)
This sure is a strange community, one minute we're all fighting and the next we're all trying to work together. ;-)
I hope something positive comes out of all this.
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mdma wrote:
Mon HTML est tres merde, monsieur. I can add the common API's to the current site, but I need someone with HTML skills to make something pretty! :-D
Its for programmers - it doesnt need to be pretty. Just write structurally sound xHTML - ie doctype, headings (h1 h2 h3 etc), paras, lists (ul ol etc), that sort of thing.
When Amizilla is complete we can then think about prettifying it with CSS :-)
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GadgetMaster wrote:
filson wrote:
Maybe it would be better to create a seperate section for ppl to look at if they were in doubt of the meaning of the specification.
It can easily become very messy if all things have to be explained all together with the specification. :-)
and it would make my life easier :-D :-D
I smell a FAQ coming up :)
This sure is a strange community, one minute we're all fighting and the next we're all trying to work together. ;-)
I hope something positive comes out of all this.
This is our own COMMUNITY project, not some company's product so we define it and we can all have our say. I think we have needed something like this for a long while.
The website will need lots more, but it's a start.
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Yeah, many of the best development-oriented sites skip the fancy layout entirely and get right to the core material. Simple text, good organization with extensive hyperlinks, pdf white papers when required.
The rest of that stuff is for the whack jobs ; } ...Unfortunately one often has to cater to them ; }
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greenboy wrote:
The rest of that stuff is for the whack jobs ; } ...Unfortunately one often has to cater to them ; }
And that, Greenboy, is what I'm employed to do ;-)
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GadgetMaster wrote:
filson wrote:
Maybe it would be better to create a seperate section for ppl to look at if they were in doubt of the meaning of the specification.
It can easily become very messy if all things have to be explained all together with the specification. :-)
and it would make my life easier :-D :-D
I smell a FAQ coming up :)
This sure is a strange community, one minute we're all fighting and the next we're all trying to work together. ;-)
I hope something positive comes out of all this.
It's been a log time coming!!!
But it is great to see so many people who generally moan and fight, come together and agree on something.
It seems we all want something that is so simple, but will ultimately benefit everyone. :-)
What we really need is some heavy weight behind the idea, to show just how important this is.
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Oddly enough it's easy talking with people who generally rather agreeable anyway, and who don't feel like total nuclear destruction is the only way to make headway ; }
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Wow, this thread sure exploded in size since I was looking here last :-o
I think OpenAmiga is a great idea. Very constructive for the community too :-)
Such an anodyne to all the tedious MOS v OS4 stuff!
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@uncharted:
Great Avatar. Very humorous. It's nice to see folks can still carry a sense of humor around.
@The Topic:
I don't have any inside knowledge of this topic, but I think having some level of cross-ppc compatability would be nice for the end user. Whether or not it would be good for either or both platforms, I do not know. Heck, I wouldn't even venture a guess at this point!
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BTW what category would this go under in OSNews? Amiga or MorphOS wouldn't really be right.
It's gone up under Amiga news.
So when we will see it in the Amiga related news sites?
Amiga.org
ANN
Czech AN
AmigArt
AmigaWorld
MorphOS-News
VGR News
GFX-Base
Amiga University (I know it isn`t a news site :-) )
It will be useful if someone wrote a readme file that says some info about OpenAmiga standards etc to be included in all programs that stick to them.
YAM, Amizila, AWeb are potential programs for the openAmiga standard (I know Aweb doesn`t use MUI, but they could make a version with MUI also, and Amizilla hasn`t start yet if I`m not mistaken)
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DaveP wrote:
Hmmm.
I like the basis behind the idea but I think you will have a problem choosing either CyberGFX or Picasso96 "standards" as neither are particularly open or within our domain to control. Plus I think you get into the Cyber vs Picasso debate. Given you have made the decision to throw away WOS and PUP may I suggest you throw away P96 and CGFX?
Also including MUI will cause similar strains. What would be more useful is if you just stuck to the AOS3.1 API as being the open standard revision #1 and then allow other bodies to submit revisions to that for sound, graphics and higher level interfaces.
This forces subcommittees to get the political and technical issues out of the way.
Sort of the way that CORBA is handled by OMG.
I like that idea. Having more then one library to do the same thing is a bit silly. I'd think the OS3.1 APIs should be the path to stick to... Adding more libraries just adds fractures to the OS/community.
I think we should keep it simple. Both OSs will prolly support the base install of OS3.1 (through emulation or whatever) so i think OS3.1 is the place to start.
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Just a question wouldn't it be better to port gtk+ over instead of using mui? As I see it this would shorten porting times of linux apps over in the future.
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Rodney wrote:
I like that idea. Having more then one library to do the same thing is a bit silly. I'd think the OS3.1 APIs should be the path to stick to... Adding more libraries just adds fractures to the OS/community.
I think we should keep it simple. Both OSs will prolly support the base install of OS3.1 (through emulation or whatever) so i think OS3.1 is the place to start.
AIUI, the point about this is that it's a set of libraries/features which are available across the various AmigaOS clones. So MUI is included because it's available on AmigaOS and Morphos, and has a clone on AROS - not because they're trying to say it's "better" than Reaction, or are trying to split the community.
The problem with only supporting the basic OS3.1 API is that it's getting rather dated. Trying to program gadtools used to drive me insane.. ;) later toolkits such as MUI are much more powerful.
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May I come with a suggestion? For the website - openamiga.tk, for each "standard" that is to be made, could it be possible to describe it?
E.g. MUI, CGX, OpenGL - they all need to be defined. By that I mean there must be a common cencus / agreement of what these standards are, and then maybe have som more technical specs. about them - as they aredescribed now.
I don't know much about these standards, but I'll bet different ppl have different views on these "artefacts".
And just a quick Q about the network part. Wouldn't there be a good idea to develop APIs for 802 LAN/MAN Standards? That also includes 802.11 (a and b) wireless. IIRC the A1200 had a PCMCIA port? Excellent for wireless! You can read more about these standards on www.ieee802.org (http://www.ieee802.org/)
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mdwh2 wrote:
Rodney wrote:
I like that idea. Having more then one library to do the same thing is a bit silly. I'd think the OS3.1 APIs should be the path to stick to... Adding more libraries just adds fractures to the OS/community.
I think we should keep it simple. Both OSs will prolly support the base install of OS3.1 (through emulation or whatever) so i think OS3.1 is the place to start.
AIUI, the point about this is that it's a set of libraries/features which are available across the various AmigaOS clones. So MUI is included because it's available on AmigaOS and Morphos, and has a clone on AROS - not because they're trying to say it's "better" than Reaction, or are trying to split the community.
The problem with only supporting the basic OS3.1 API is that it's getting rather dated. Trying to program gadtools used to drive me insane.. ;) later toolkits such as MUI are much more powerful.
While it is true the 3.1 kernel is old, it should be noted that it is tried, tested, it works and it is well known.
Openamiga is not trying to hold back developments, but give developers an idea of what the minimum API is supported across the Amiga Clone platforms.
I would hope that improvemetns to the 3.1 Kernel can be suggested via openamiga and then implemented on all the clones in an API compatibile way.
If we don't do this now, the three systems will probably drift apart, splitting the community irreversibly.
This, as they say, is our last best chance for peace :-D
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NewRevolution wrote:
May I come with a suggestion? For the website - openamiga.tk, for each "standard" that is to be made, could it be possible to describe it?
E.g. MUI, CGX, OpenGL - they all need to be defined. By that I mean there must be a common cencus / agreement of what these standards are, and then maybe have som more technical specs. about them - as they aredescribed now.
I don't know much about these standards, but I'll bet different ppl have different views on these "artefacts".
And just a quick Q about the network part. Wouldn't there be a good idea to develop APIs for 802 LAN/MAN Standards? That also includes 802.11 (a and b) wireless. IIRC the A1200 had a PCMCIA port? Excellent for wireless! You can read more about these standards on www.ieee802.org (http://www.ieee802.org/)
It's important to remember we are not talking about drivers of the underlying systems, that is up to the OS teams.
What we are talking about is the the interface between the OS and the apps...
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Good point raised by Dan Cox on Ann...
We really should include AREXX compatibility into the openamiga spec.
Though I don't know if MOS has it? If not then they can use AROS's Regina system I guess.
Side note:
It would be ince for all programs to at least support Arexx in some way.
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I've now posted our details as news on the following sites:-
http://osnews.com
http://ann.lu
http://slashdot.org
http://www.gfxbase.com
and Kees posted it on here! Thanks Kees. :-)
I've had a lot of positive feedback via email, and the only negative feedback so far, has been from non-Amiga trolls on osnews, who have zero understanding of what we are trying to achieve anyway.
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Well, as i see it, AmigaOS and MorphOS are supporting 3.1 APIs or something similar. Once they start to get a few native apps, they'll drop that emulation quicker then you can say, "drop that emulation" :).
So keeping up with the times is a good thing. I think what woudl also be a good thing is to try add third party apps rather than official MorphOS or AmigaOS things to the set of features/requirements.
MUI is a good example. MUI will be included in AOS4 for some time to come. It will also be avaliable in MOS and in a compatible form for AROS.
But, as i've said in the news item discussion. In stead of trying to get users/developers to use these sets of tool, i think we should push AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS developers to work in POSIX compliant. That way, we'll benifit the community on all platforms but we'll also have a wide range of software.
I know this will be a lot more difficult, because this will require some development time, but the result i think would be much worth it.
Not that im saying this isnt a goood idea. I needs to be done. Just correctly.
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Rodney wrote:
Well, as i see it, AmigaOS and MorphOS are supporting 3.1 APIs or something similar. Once they start to get a few native apps, they'll drop that emulation quicker then you can say, "drop that emulation" :).
So keeping up with the times is a good thing. I think what woudl also be a good thing is to try add third party apps rather than official MorphOS or AmigaOS things to the set of features/requirements.
MUI is a good example. MUI will be included in AOS4 for some time to come. It will also be avaliable in MOS and in a compatible form for AROS.
But, as i've said in the news item discussion. In stead of trying to get users/developers to use these sets of tool, i think we should push AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS developers to work in POSIX compliant. That way, we'll benifit the community on all platforms but we'll also have a wide range of software.
I know this will be a lot more difficult, because this will require some development time, but the result i think would be much worth it.
Not that im saying this isnt a goood idea. I needs to be done. Just correctly.
As I've tried to point out, POSIX isn't really an issues here.. we are talking about things that POSIX does not cover at all!!!
In fact choosing a POSIX compatibile API will be an integral part of the openamiga standard.
-Edit- one of the reasons why I'm a keen on using AROS (or any AmigaOSoid for that matter) other than, say the rather fine, AtheOS is because I don't want just another POSIX OS... sure have support for POSIX, but don't let it rule you... we have our own standards lets look after them. :-)
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bloodline wrote:
Rodney wrote:
Well, as i see it, AmigaOS and MorphOS are supporting 3.1 APIs or something similar. Once they start to get a few native apps, they'll drop that emulation quicker then you can say, "drop that emulation" :).
So keeping up with the times is a good thing. I think what woudl also be a good thing is to try add third party apps rather than official MorphOS or AmigaOS things to the set of features/requirements.
MUI is a good example. MUI will be included in AOS4 for some time to come. It will also be avaliable in MOS and in a compatible form for AROS.
But, as i've said in the news item discussion. In stead of trying to get users/developers to use these sets of tool, i think we should push AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS developers to work in POSIX compliant. That way, we'll benifit the community on all platforms but we'll also have a wide range of software.
I know this will be a lot more difficult, because this will require some development time, but the result i think would be much worth it.
Not that im saying this isnt a goood idea. I needs to be done. Just correctly.
As I've tried to point out, POSIX isn't really an issues here.. we are talking about things that POSIX does not cover at all!!!
In fact choosing a POSIX compatibile API will be an integral part of the openamiga standard.
-Edit- one of the reasons why I'm a keen on using AROS (or any AmigaOSoid for that matter) other than, say the rather fine, AtheOS is because I don't want just another POSIX OS... sure have support for POSIX, but don't let it rule you... we have our own standards lets look after them. :-)
I think that is a very good point. Why be just another UNIX clone? As Greenboy pointed out, QNX has a POSIX layer, but it isn't a UNIX, and it's native API's are superior, but having the POSIX layer helps bring apps across.
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Come check out our new web design.
IMHO it looks a bit more serious now. good thing to put behind the words.
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One thing wich should be implemented soon is a gcc "distro" wich allows the programmer to compile binaries for MorphOS/AROS/OS4/OS3.x easily with a simple flag... an IDE would be even nice but some people may don't use it... but I'd like an easy installer... another thing that causes quite a lot problems for newbies like me are the includes, an standard for includes would be nice...
So I would like to see a new gcc for dummies like me with includes for dummies... sorry, I know that asking is easy but I don't have a clue about GCC because you have to install ADE etc... I have it working thanks to Louise's gcc distro, but I'd like to see it with an installer and the option of compiling for the various AmigaOS/AROS/MorphOS...
come on AROS people... you already have to make a native GCC for AROS, so what about some changes and making it compile for other OSes doing some changes? ;-)
You may use a textfile storing the config of each OS, for example:
*MorphOS
Includes:morphosincludes
*AROS:
...
etc
Now I'm not asking even an IDE, but just something that feels comfortable to use even being a command line...
A GUI like StormC that also showed you the functions you have defined would be superb...
What do you think about this "OpenAmiga" compiler?
It would come with the OpenAmiga Includes (AHI, SDL, etc...)
If you started to do an IDE, I could help a little with some documentation, for example showing some examples about functions like you have in VisualStudio...
I only know how to use GadTools, MUI looks a little difficult although I haven't tried seriously to do something with it...
Now that we are defining standards it would be nice to have some standard classes for C++, I have seen some attempts on Aminet but as they aren't a standard they seem to have little followers...
If we had something to create GUIs as easily as in Delphi, C Builder or Visual C we would see lots of programs appearing... I saw something called VisualE... I'd like a mixture of GadTools and StormC...
I know that I talk too much, but I don't have the knowledge to change GCC, I just can make very simple apps
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filson wrote:
Come check out our new web design.
IMHO it looks a bit more serious now. good thing to put behind the words.
Thanks to NewRevolution for that. :-D
This is shaping up to be a real community effort so far!
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MUI shouldn't be a standard since it is not a free application (unless it's changed since I looked at their website a long time ago). Making users purchase MUI in addition to AmigaOS and hardware just to run a "standard" application is bad, bad, bad. If MUI was a minimum standard, then new users couldn't even run such "standard" applications if they didn't have a full copy of MUI.
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@David
see reply in news-item :-P
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Hi Crumb,
Just to sidetrack on development toolchain further - and since you mentioned IDEs: I'd like to see something like Eclipse (http://eclipse.org/) shaping how development is done ; }
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greenboy wrote:
Hi Crumb,
Just to sidetrack on development toolchain further - and since you mentioned IDEs: I'd like to see something like Eclipse (http://eclipse.org/) shaping how development is done ; }
Eclipse is a fantastic IDE, especially the GTK2 version with the CDT plugin for C/C++ development.
Just one problem, no JVM to run it in! :-)
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There can be only one !
Why ?
Because we don't want the mess of having 3 oses supporting the same set of features but still tryinging to outshine eachother and thus inherently trying to break combatibility. Oh and bother the few developers we have to workaround 3 times as many bugs.
This can only end at the point where 2 or 3 of these OSes dies. Only if one outlasts the others it will get any support.
I would say that if AOS4 would come out it would automatically kill the other two, but then again someone seems to lack the courage to kick it out of the door ...
What we need is ONE os and ONE base hardware plattform. The Sony playstation 2/3 would be ideal for this imo and it even lacks a decent OS.
If you want a Open standard i'd say go play with unix all unixes are similar just use the apps on all ...oh no that doesn't work ...nm use linux and use all apps ... oh blimey that doesn't work without having 234 different shells and 132 gui systems. But yeah it's open source in all it's glory so you can improve it your self and make the 133rd gui for it.
/Rant off
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I would say that if AOS4 would come out it would automatically kill the other two
I doubt it - AROS is open source, so even if most of the userbase migrated it could still be developed (besides, it's currently the only one on x86). And MOS will soon be going in a different direction to AOS. IMO that's the only problem with Open Amiga; while it's great at the moment, once AOS and MOS diverge it could start to stagnate, as the common ground between the OSes becomes older.
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alx wrote:
I would say that if AOS4 would come out it would automatically kill the other two
I doubt it - AROS is open source, so even if most of the userbase migrated it could still be developed (besides, it's currently the only one on x86). And MOS will soon be going in a different direction to AOS. IMO that's the only problem with Open Amiga; while it's great at the moment, once AOS and MOS diverge it could start to stagnate, as the common ground between the OSes becomes older.
But OpenAmiga will be an evolving set of standards. Much in the same way POSIX was/is.
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Reaction isn't free either. The good thing about MUI is that it IS included as part of MorphOS and AmigaOS4 and you get it when purchasing hardware. So all NEW users ARE able to use MUI applications. Only new OS4 users will be able to use Raction on the other hand, which IMO makes it useless as a openamiga gui standard.
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It's all looking good :-D
I had a bit of spare time today and started a design for the website, but I can see you've got that side of things already sorted. If for any reason you can't use the boingball/butterfly design (trademarks etc), you could fall back on this if you needed.
Anything else needed, like PDFs gfx etc just give us a shout :-)
I'm still amazed that this has still remained so positive, lets keep it going.
(http://www.uncharted.fsnet.co.uk/openamiga.jpg)
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uncharted wrote:
It's all looking good :-D
I had a bit of spare time today and started a design for the website, but I can see you've got that side of things already sorted. If for any reason you can't use the boingball/butterfly design (trademarks etc), you could fall back on this if you needed.
Anything else needed, like PDFs gfx etc just give us a shout :-)
I'm still amazed that this has still remained so positive, lets keep it going.
Very nice Uncharted!
I'm a bit worrried about the trademarks myself to be honest.
My personal preference is the rainbow tick (checkmark to our Amercian buddies!)
It's not trademarked AFAIK, and it harks back to the glory days in the hstory of the Amiga family and all it's bastard offsprings! ;-)
Send a PMAIL to filson about web stuff as i've forced.. erm I mean handed all responsibility of that side on to him. :-D
I'm busy with organising stuff and putting together the first release of an OpenAmiga Platform SDK for 68k.
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@jacadcaps & @Kronos
Is it the full version of MUI or a crippled version?
*edit*
I read the news item. Is the AmigaOS GUI preference separate from the MUI preferences so that users can still change parts of the GUI such as colors, pointers, etc.? If the included version of MUI cannot be reconfigured then doesn't that limit the users ability to change colors, pointers, etc. of the Workbench? Or is MUI and the OS4 GUI separate enough so that color changes and pointer changes can be made?
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If an OS4 user wants t have a full MUI implementation, they can install the opensource MUI clone Zune. :-)
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by mdma on 2003/6/12 18:07:23
If an OS4 user wants t have a full MUI implementation, they can install the opensource MUI clone Zune.
I still want gtk2 ... now if I knew a damn thing bout coding I might try to port it. :-P
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Terminills wrote:
by mdma on 2003/6/12 18:07:23
If an OS4 user wants t have a full MUI implementation, they can install the opensource MUI clone Zune.
I still want gtk2 ... now if I knew a damn thing bout coding I might try to port it. :-P
I'd love GTK2 also, but to put in the first OpenAmiga Platform Spec would put back the release date of the first SDK by anout 2 years! ;-)
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I'd love GTK2 also, but to put in the first OpenAmiga Platform Spec would put back the release date of the first SDK by anout 2 years!
Hey I never claimed I was being logical I just want it. :-D
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:lol:
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Can someone summarize what have been said here? What have people agred to? What is the next step?
I'm trying to collect some some meat to put on the bone..um... info for OpenAmiga.tk :-D
@uncharted
Nice banner: Hang on to it, I'm also a bit unsure if we can change the logos the way we have done.
We have to ask Amiga Inc. and MorphOS for their permission to use their logos I guess - especially in the way we have done.
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NewRevolution wrote:
Can someone summarize what have been said here? What have people agred to? What is the next step?
I'm trying to collect some some meat to put on the bone..um... info for OpenAmiga.tk :-D
@uncharted
Nice banner: Hang on to it, I'm also a bit unsure if we can change the logos the way we have done.
We have to ask Amiga Inc. and MorphOS for their permission to use their logos I guess - especially in the way we have done.
I was gonna summarise it all last night, but other things got in the way. I'll get round to it on Sunday night probably as I've got a busy weekend ahead of me.
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http://openamiga.org/ (http://openamiga.org/)
openamiga.org is now active, please update your bookmarks!
@alx and uncharted
Could you come up with a new logo with openamiga.org and a rainbow tick between the two of you please?
Or anyone else for that matter. It doesn't have to have the tick, but I've got the idea in my head and I quite like it now! :-)
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Could you come up with a new logo with openamiga.org and a rainbow tick between the two of you please?
I've already done a revised version which is now on the Logos page, but if someone else wants to use any bits (ie the 3D tick) to incorperate in a better one, then just drop me a pmail/email.
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mdma, I like the tick as well - it allows the project to have some breathing space from corporate logo overkill. Just promise me that all the supporters of the 'movement' will never make avatars based on whatever you use ; }
While I'm on the subject: actually I feel the Amizilla mascot is kinda messed up for a couple different reasons. But the primary one is that it is supposed to represent an initiative with three main target platforms (all with their own respective signia). And yet there it is: a Boing Ball. Sheesh. But put butterfly wings on lizard girl and some cat fur and whiskers and you have a case of classic confused hormones/genomes adolescent roadkill! So that's no solution either...
Amizillla would be better served by getting a logo and or mascot that carries its OWN non-dependent IDENTITY that would also send the intended message of semi-non-partisanship ; }
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greenboy wrote:
mdma, I like the tick as well - it allows the project to have some breathing space from corporate logo overkill. Just promise me that all the supporters of the 'movement' will never make avatars based on whatever you use ; }
While I'm on the subject: actually I feel the Amizilla mascot is kinda messed up for a couple different reasons. But the primary one is that it is supposed to represent an initiative with three main target platforms (all with their own respective signia). And yet there it is: a Boing Ball. Sheesh. But put butterfly wings on lizard girl and some cat fur and whiskers and you have a case of classic confused hormones/genomes adolescent roadkill! So that's no solution either...
Amizillla would be better served by getting a logo and or mascot that carries its OWN non-dependent IDENTITY that would also send the intended message of semi-non-partisanship ; }
IMHO opinion Amizilla should be Mozilla, and the Amiga specific code included in the main Mozilla tree in the same way the linux and Windows code sit side by side. It should be promoted as being exactly the same as the other versions, it would be better marketing i think.
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mdma wrote:
greenboy wrote:
mdma, I like the tick as well - it allows the project to have some breathing space from corporate logo overkill. Just promise me that all the supporters of the 'movement' will never make avatars based on whatever you use ; }
While I'm on the subject: actually I feel the Amizilla mascot is kinda messed up for a couple different reasons. But the primary one is that it is supposed to represent an initiative with three main target platforms (all with their own respective signia). And yet there it is: a Boing Ball. Sheesh. But put butterfly wings on lizard girl and some cat fur and whiskers and you have a case of classic confused hormones/genomes adolescent roadkill! So that's no solution either...
Amizillla would be better served by getting a logo and or mascot that carries its OWN non-dependent IDENTITY that would also send the intended message of semi-non-partisanship ; }
IMHO opinion Amizilla should be Mozilla, and the Amiga specific code included in the main Mozilla tree in the same way the linux and Windows code sit side by side. It should be promoted as being exactly the same as the other versions, it would be better marketing i think.
Of course it should, but without a common amiga platform spec they can't do it... oh wait... there is one :-D
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bloodline wrote:
mdma wrote:
greenboy wrote:
mdma, I like the tick as well - it allows the project to have some breathing space from corporate logo overkill. Just promise me that all the supporters of the 'movement' will never make avatars based on whatever you use ; }
While I'm on the subject: actually I feel the Amizilla mascot is kinda messed up for a couple different reasons. But the primary one is that it is supposed to represent an initiative with three main target platforms (all with their own respective signia). And yet there it is: a Boing Ball. Sheesh. But put butterfly wings on lizard girl and some cat fur and whiskers and you have a case of classic confused hormones/genomes adolescent roadkill! So that's no solution either...
Amizillla would be better served by getting a logo and or mascot that carries its OWN non-dependent IDENTITY that would also send the intended message of semi-non-partisanship ; }
IMHO opinion Amizilla should be Mozilla, and the Amiga specific code included in the main Mozilla tree in the same way the linux and Windows code sit side by side. It should be promoted as being exactly the same as the other versions, it would be better marketing i think.
Of course it should, but without a common amiga platform spec they can't do it... oh wait... there is one :-D
:lol:
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mdma wrote:
http://openamiga.org/ (http://openamiga.org/)
openamiga.org is now active, please update your bookmarks!
@alx and uncharted
Could you come up with a new logo with openamiga.org and a rainbow tick between the two of you please?
Or anyone else for that matter. It doesn't have to have the tick, but I've got the idea in my head and I quite like it now! :-)
I had a quick go at making a 3D rainbow tick eariler today, from memory, but I didn't quite get it right (The angle on the small lines wasn't quite tight enough).
Then I realised that I have the orginal tick on the OS roms so I took a grab of the 3.1 insert dick screen via UAE and then cleaned it up using photoshop adding some polish.
I'm afraid you'll have to wait till tomorrow to see them as I did it on my laptop and I can't be arsed to faff about disconecting from here, swapping leads, reconnecting, uploading etc.
The only thing is I believe that the checkmark is a trademark (belonging to whoever owns Commodore) this topic came up back in 1999 in the days of the MCC when people were arguing over which logo should be on that VCR thingy.
Also Copyright may come into play here (I'm not an expert) as the Amiga ROMS (and therefore the image) are copyrighted to Amiga Inc.
Originally the padlock design was going to have the checkmark etched into it, but I wasn't sure of the legal status.
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uncharted wrote:
The only thing is I believe that the checkmark is a trademark (belonging to whoever owns Commodore) this topic came up back in 1999 in the days of the MCC when people were arguing over which logo should be on that VCR thingy.
Also Copyright may come into play here (I'm not an expert) as the Amiga ROMS (and therefore the image) are copyrighted to Amiga Inc.
Originally the padlock design was going to have the checkmark etched into it, but I wasn't sure of the legal status.
The tick would be ideal though, it emphasizes the positivity of OpenAmiga, don't you think? :-) It has a good psychological effect on me anyway. Look at the logo at the top of this page, I think I see a rainbow tick :-D
I really hope this is actually going somewhere... :-)
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Let me point out something here.
Most "open" standards are managed by a committees composed of reps from manufacturers and developers.
Unless the people writing the OS's get involved with this your efforts will be limited to AROS.
That isn't a bad thing. It would be nice to have AROS development come under guidlines other than "wouldn't it be cool if" and if the other players are even partially cooperative you will have accomplished something.
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Unless the people writing the OS's get involved with this your efforts will be limited to AROS.
Well, the choice of the current APIs was decided by the fact that all the AmigaOSoids support them now. So version 1 of the open specification is already in place. :-)
Now I would hope that we could bring the MOS team and Hyperion in on this so that the next version can be worked out together... if not then the Openamiga team will just have to release their own free implementation of the next revison for AOS4 and MOS (probably based on AROS sources).
It's perfectly doable :-P
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I would note that Raquel and Bill have been mystifyingly quite on this subject...
Come on Bill!!! You must be interested?
:-D
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bloodline wrote:
I would note that Raquel and Bill have been mystifyingly quite on this subject...
Come on Bill!!! You must be interested?
:-D
One might say "Diplomatically quiet". ;-)
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Lots going on; it's likely BBRV hasn't been reading here. I'm keeping an eye on it occasionally, and its likely that I'll be describing it and what I've seen discussed next time we talk on the phone.But you guys could talk about it on the general Phoenix ML and he'd probably see it.
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greenboy wrote:
Lots going on; it's likely BBRV hasn't been reading here. I'm keeping an eye on it occasionally, and its likely that I'll be describing it and what I've seen discussed next time we talk on the phone.But you guys could talk about it on the general Phoenix ML and he'd probably see it.
I already have, as have others. I'll check my pop3 emails tommorow to see what the general feeling is at Phoenix.