How is OS4 ?

[Varthall]

Erm, MPlayer has more complete and faster support for DVD than DVPlayer (and don't blame the DVPlayer author, it's really quite some work to support it fully, even when reusing ffmpeg), and it even supports DVD menus (experimental, though). Whether the OS4 MPlayer port supports all this correctly is another matter.

My comparison was in fact with the OS4 version of MPlayer, since runequester was asking only about OS4 on its own.

Timberwolf already has HTML5 video support, but only for Theora, not H264, which is used in Youtube, Dailymotion, Vimeo and a couple others. However, google is pushing its VP8 codec. So, if FireFox 3.7 is ported to OS4, you'll get VP8 support, and only then, you'll have a chance to play youtube in timberwolf (except if you get flash first, but i seriously doubt it).

The Friedens are working on the Firefox 3.7 codebase now:

http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=network/browser/timberwolf_install.lha

Varthall

[takemehomegrandma]

Shouldn't you be comparing the Sam440 with the Efika, rather than the Peg1? Bit of an unfair contest otherwise, I would have thought.

You have a point there Karlos, since both builds on "G2" class CPU's, and of course Sam should win in performance there (the Efika is only 400MHz, while the Sam's CPU is clocked above 600 MHz AFAIK). The Efika is quite limited, it's biggest limitation compared to the Sam is perhaps the 128MB RAM (and slower IDE, only 2 USB 1.1, etc).

The strongest and most prominent feature of the Efika is without doubt its price:

Efika motherboard: $99.00 USD
18 Gauge Steel Vented EFIKA Case Kit: $99.99 USD
Motherboard + Case combo: $169.99 USD (add a HDD and GFX card if you want to, and then you have a complete computer)

http://search.directron.us/newsearch.php?find=efika

But since nobody who wants a good performing *desktop* machine would never buy a "G2" class machine anyway, comparisons from a *desktop* point of view are a little skew. If you have a cool little HW project going, like building a small LAN connected music player or whatever ideas your creativity has put in your mind, then the "G2" Efika is an interesting option. But if what you are looking for is a machine capable of taking on the role of a *desktop* machine, like playing modern media files, browsing heavy websites with rich media content, run emulation, compiling big projects, etc, then you would definitely want a computer with L2 cache at the least (a "G3") and preferably Altivec as well ("G4") and a clock frequency above 1GHz. Especially if you want to do several of those things at the same time.

So from a desktop POV it would be more relevant to compare it to eMac's and Mac Mini's instead. MorphOS on a Mac Mini 1.42GHz plays HD 720p x264 video streams smoothly, while (AFAIK) the "G2" Sam frameskips on DVD/MPEG2.

You can get eMac's with G4 @ 1.25GHz for about $50-$100 USD.
You can get Mac Mini's G4 @ 1.42 GHz for about $150-$250 USD. (The 1.5GHz/64MB VRAM version can be slightly more expensive)

(EDIT: Here is for example a Mac Mini 1.5GHz/64MB VRAM on e-bay whose auction is about to end. Current bid: US $177.50, Buy Now: US $300.00)

[Karlos]

@tmhg

I thought the slowest Sam ran at ~400MHz ish?

[Crumb]

I don't know much software for OS4 which is labelled as alpha/beta, most of the software released there are stable versions, and not all of the software for OS4 has a MOS version.

I can't think of much OS4 software without better MorphOS equivalent. Most software news for OS4 consist in SDL ports compiled with "make" with almost 0 changes. When the port is slightly difficult it usually comes from MorphOS ports that were done years ago.

Not a problem since MPlayer exists for OS4 too, and it's free as well. From my experience, DVPlayer handle DVDs better than MPlayer.

Perhaps with OS4 Mplayer version, that always has lagged behind MorphOS one (MorphOS*version was the original port that made possible AROS/OS4/OS3 ports and it's the one better maintained and most stable).

Who cares how a software has been ported, what's important is that the software exists :-)

well, my point is that a lot of software already exists in MorphOS right now without spamming amiga webs with newsitems about quick ports.

You cannot really compare prices since all the hardware available for MOS is second-hand only.

Of course I can.*Efikas are new and cost 99$. OS4 owners don't have problems in using second hand hardware either (just look at the amount of betatesters that sold their uA1s when Pegasos2 port was announced).

I can buy various*Mac Minis for the price of a full Sam440.

We'll see how will the Sam460 compare with the Peg2, the new Sam should be shipping in September I have read.

Well, I would expect that any hardware released 5 years later and sold at a similar price should be both faster and better. That Sam460 is a hackish board with some strange incompatibilities that block SATA if you want to fit a proper gfx card so users are forced to fit a PCI*SATA card in the PCI slot. Anyway that embedded cpu only has a few KB of L2 cache (so it really needs DDR ram) and lacks Altivec instrutions*(something not wise for a Multimedia computer). For OS4 users Peg2 is still much better option that L2-Cache less Sam440

That will be probably fixed with a future Timberwolf release with support for HTML5 videos. BTW MOS currently lacks a Firefox port.

It's not about quantity but quality: MorphOS OWB is way better than Timberwolf, I can already watch youtube videos fullscreen on an old Peg1/600 directly. BTW, MorphOS OWB is way ahead than Strohmayer's OWB*port too.

If we take into account the quality of past Frieden ports:*Quake3, Blender... there's nothing that makes us think that they are going to be able to release a finished, polished version in a reasonable timeframe.

[Crumb]

Shouldn't you be comparing the Sam440 with the Efika, rather than the Peg1? Bit of an unfair contest otherwise, I would have thought.

since Peg2 is already cheaper than Sam440 and both run OS4 I think it's fair. Efika can be bought new but doesn't run OS4. With Peg2 the user can run both OS4 and MorphOS. I would get a G4 Mac Mini anyway.

I would get a G4 Mac Mini and enjoy it instead of waiting for vapourware and vague promises.

[Karlos]

since Peg2 is already cheaper than Sam440 and both run OS4 I think it's fair. Efika can be bought new but doesn't run OS4. With Peg2 the user can run both OS4 and MorphOS.

No, this comparison is not fair. Your comparison was on performance. You said:

Try to watch HD video on those Sam440. Try to watch youtube directly in your browser on a Sam440. With Fab's OWB even on an old Peg1 with g3/600 youtube videos are played smoothly fullscreen without the need of 3rd party apps like getvideo/tubexx.

You were thus comparing the performance of an OS running on a 400MHz class G2 system with a rival OS running on a 600MHz G3 class machine.

Any way you look at it, that is a stilted comparison.

[Crumb]

@Karlos

there are >800Mhz Sam440 (and Sam440 range begins at 533Mhz). But it will always be an "unfair" comparison because releasing that stuff (no altivec, no L2cache, low clockspeed) 5 years later than peg2/G4 was a very bad idea.

We may also add that it's unfair to compare hardware released with 5 years of difference but it's ACube's fault.

Nowadays for something around 500Euros we may expect at least some dualcore altivec powered cpu running at more than 1,5Ghz. Something like MPC8641D. That would be the minimum after Pegasos2 was released 5 years ago.

[Framiga]

It's fine although it's slower and more primitive than MorphOS*(it's quite noticeable if you compare MorphOS1.4.5 and OS4 on Classics, it's slower in almost every way: 2d graphics, 3d graphics, hd access, worst access to other filesystems, slower/worse usb support...).

sorry Crumb but i don't agree!

In everyday use on my CSPPC, AOS4 is much responsive than Morphos 1.4.5 (with MUI4 and a recent Ambient). If you are speaking about the barebone 1.4.5 with MUI 3.9 the comparision is not fair, because most of the recent apps, requires MUI4 :-)

[Fab]

sorry Crumb but i don't agree!

In everyday use on my CSPPC, AOS4 is much responsive than Morphos 1.4.5 (with MUI4 and a recent Ambient). If you are speaking about the barebone 1.4.5 with MUI 3.9 the comparision is not fair, because most of the recent apps, requires MUI4 :-)

Stop using a mui/intuition skin that abuses alpha blending, then (the default one does).

[Framiga]

how do you know what skin i'm using?

Its slower, period :-) more advanced/bloated but slower.

[Fab]

how do you know what skin i'm using?

Its slower, period :-) more advanced/bloated but slower.

People tend to use default configuration and skins, and i repeat, that config was way too heavy for a classic configuration (antialiased truetype fonts, blending, ...). Maybe you also use serial debug, which wouldn't be a good idea, considering that MUI4 build was some debug version.

But with a suited skin/fonts, it can't be slower than OS4, no.

[Framiga]

People tend to use default configuration and skins, and i repeat, that config was way too heavy for a classic configuration (antialiased truetype fonts, blending, ...). Maybe you also use serial debug, which wouldn't be a good idea, considering that MUI4 build was some debug version.

But with a suited skin/fonts, it can't be slower than OS4, no.

i have to insist .... it is :-)

[Crumb]

sorry Crumb but i don't agree!

In everyday use on my CSPPC, AOS4 is much responsive than Morphos 1.4.5 (with MUI4 and a recent Ambient). If you are speaking about the barebone 1.4.5 with MUI 3.9 the comparision is not fair, because most of the recent apps, requires MUI4 :-)

You must have some configuration problem with your setup then because MorphOS gfx are way faster and is much more responsive than OS4 (e.g. moving solid windows is way smoother in MorphOS), don't get me started on HD access speed. BTW, you can install both MUI4 and a more recent build of Ambient on 1.4.5 (just like you install boinbags on OS4). That's the way I use it and OWB and MPlayer work quite better than their OS4 counterpads too. IIRC*I stripped debuginfo from my Ambient&MUI4 files.

MorphOS team activated some delays in the menus, go to MUI prefs and reduce them to 0. My CSPPC with Picasso4/CV64/CV3D is way faster with MorphOS than it is with OS4.x (even if I use Prometheus/Mediator4000 with Voodoo3 on OS4 side). There was also some problem with the fonts as default settings try to use some fonts that are not there.

PS:*It's not just my hardware as I tested OS4/MOS with different hardware (computers, ppc boards, gfx cards... many comments in ACube compatibility list are mine in fact). On A1200 with OS4 for example is almost mandatory to switch off OS4 skin and go back to an OS3-like skin if you want to avoid turtle-like performance. With MorphOS it's not so slow even with the most basic BlizzardPPC. I tested 4 different CSPPC (180-233Mhz) with different computers A3000, A4000, A4000T... also a pair of BlizzardPPC*(240Mhz and 160Mhz models) and various gfx cards like RetinaZ3, PicassoII, GVP*Spectrum, CV64/3D, CV64, PicassoIV, Permedia2, Voodoo3...

[Varthall]

I can't think of much OS4 software without better MorphOS equivalent.

Some of them are quite important, though: Abiword and Gnumeric, or Timberwolf.

 Most software news for OS4 consist in SDL ports compiled with "make" with almost 0 changes. When the port is slightly difficult it usually comes from MorphOS ports that were done years ago.

Where did you get this information?

Perhaps with OS4 Mplayer version, that always has lagged behind MorphOS one (MorphOS*version was the original port that made possible AROS/OS4/OS3 ports and it's the one better maintained and most stable).

And it's only with the Os4 version that you should do the comparison, since the original poster has asked opinion on OS4 itself, not a comparison with MOS or other OSes. The fact that OS4's version of Mplayer lags behind MOS' one doesn't make it less useful.

well, my point is that a lot of software already exists in MorphOS right now without spamming amiga webs with newsitems about quick ports.

Which is not the topic of this thread.

Of course I can.*Efikas are new and cost 99$.

AFAIK Efikas are still sold as new, but they are not produced anymore. Anyway, Efikas are more limited in specs and expandibility than Sams.

 OS4 owners don't have problems in using second hand hardware either (just look at the amount of betatesters that sold their uA1s when Pegasos2 port was announced).

Ok, but then compare second hand OS4 machines with second hand ones for MOS.

I can buy various*Mac Minis for the price of a full Sam440.

You can buy various USED Mac Minis for the price of an USED Sam440, perhaps.

Well, I would expect that any hardware released 5 years later and sold at a similar price should be both faster and better.

I hoped that too, but it seems that ACube's financial possibilities at the time were too limited to allow it.

 That Sam460 is a hackish board

Define hackish.

 with some strange incompatibilities that block SATA if you want to fit a proper gfx card so users are forced to fit a PCI*SATA card in the PCI slot.

Why? Are gfx cards incompatible with 4x slots, and work only in 1x ones?

 Anyway that embedded cpu only has a few KB of L2 cache (so it really needs DDR ram) and lacks Altivec instrutions*(something not wise for a Multimedia computer).

But how much will these two missing features affect the overall performance of the board?

 For OS4 users Peg2 is still much better option that L2-Cache less Sam440

Unless the buyer isn't more interested in new hardware.

It's not about quantity but quality: MorphOS OWB is way better than Timberwolf, I can already watch youtube videos fullscreen on an old Peg1/600 directly. BTW, MorphOS OWB is way ahead than Strohmayer's OWB*port too.

How many plugins are available for OWB, compared to Firefox?

If we take into account the quality of past Frieden ports:*Quake3, Blender... there's nothing that makes us think that they are going to be able to release a finished, polished version in a reasonable timeframe.

What you don't like about theirs Quake3 port?

Varthall

[Framiga]

You must have some configuration problem with your setup then because MorphOS gfx are way faster and is much more responsive than OS4, don't get me started on HD access speed. BTW, you can install both MUI4 and a more recent build of Ambient on 1.4.5 (just like you install boinbags on OS4)

MorphOS team activated some delays in the menus, go to MUI prefs and reduce them to 0. My CSPPC with Picasso4/CV64 is way faster with MorphOS than it is with OS4.x (even if I use Prometheus/Mediator4000 with Voodoo3 on OS4 side).

Crumb ... i have used Morphos 1.4.5 for Classic since the very first release and it is slower than AOS4. Threr's nothing you or me can do to change this. On some "more powerful" (lol) machines  you won't notice all this slowness but on a classic 200 Mhz machine, you will (above all with a BPPC). as i said is more advanced but too bloated for classic.

[Piru]

How many plugins are available for OWB, compared to Firefox?

MorphOS OWB: 1 *
OS4 Timberwolf: 0

We are talking about plugins here, the ones you can check with about:plugins right?