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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Editorials => Topic started by: System on March 22, 2004, 11:36:35 AM
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What will it take to get the average "Joe" to consider purchasing the new Amiga (and compatible) platform in the future?
It's inarguable that the current situation with the future Amiga, and derivative products such as the Pegasos, et al., is a confusing, frustrating mess. No one knows quite who owns what, when they owned it, why "Fleecy" kept babbling about OS4 a year after they supposedly sold it, etcetera.
Disclaimer: I'm not here to play favorites and I really hope that everyone here knows and understands that I have almost no vested interest in either company. For the sake of this article, let's put the companies, their problems, and everything else aside (as we should be doing anyway -- although sadly it's become the best three-ring circus in town). Please take the time to understand the following sentence very clearly. In this editorial, when I refer to "the Amiga", for the purposes of brevity I mean the AmigaOne/OS4, Pegasos/MorphOS, and all the Amiga derivative products1 equally.
In the beginning...
... every platform had a-buzzword alert!- "killer app" that brought people to the platform itself. The classic Amiga had-in my case-games like F/A-18 Interceptor that used 16-bit color when 16 colors on the PC was still a luxury and Apple computers were still monochrome. Remember, Windows as we know it today wasn't even born yet.
Then Commodore tanked and took Amiga with it; and then there were two. Support for the Amiga dried up and-a once laughable concept in Amiga's heyday-Macintosh took over in Amiga's absence and cornered the desktop publishing and graphics world with Photoshop and other programs.
Later, just as Gateway was looking to purchase Amiga, Microsoft was taking over in the office with Microsoft Office and Windows, which helped it invade the work place with great success. Different gaming platforms had different platform games, such as the Mario Bros. one of many franchises for Nintendo that helped them approach their target market.
Later in its life, the classic Amiga had the Video Toaster, true. That too however has been absorbed by the monolith from Seattle and Apple. Apple carved out a niche for graphics, video, and flashy stylish hardware, and Microsoft currently owns the workplace.
Can we lure those users back? The Amiga currently has no killer apps anymore; nothing worth switching platforms for. With all due respect to the individual authors intended, the OS doesn't even have a decent Web browser yet! So the task here would be to generate enthusiasm in the platform to get things developed. How could they do this?
Recruiting for a new (old) platform
A new Amiga platform is going to have challenges recruiting good developers from other platforms because they can't offer the potential of a "million seller" like programs for Windows (and rarely the Mac) can. To recruit developers to your side you'd have to focus on doing a few main things:
- Give away a lot of full systems. As Genesi is now discovering, this method doesn't automatically mean that the recipients will actually produce things for your platform.
- Hire good, solid developers. I know that Amiga Inc. put their livelihood-and a great deal of money-into infiltrating the world of the "digital environment", but four years later that market is already becoming saturated, and not too many of us are interested in cellphone java apps.
- Attract third-party developers. Some companies are easier to work with as a developer than others; be the easy kind. Don't charge a fortune for your SDK; take it on the chin for awhile financially and support third-party developers as much as you can afford to; it's them who'll be supporting your platform-or not.
- Attract users. To get the world to switch to Amiga, there have to be "killer apps." But are there even any killer apps left for the desktop PC? The last I could have thought of (and did long before it was available) was a file sharing network. Windows developers beat us to it though, in the form of Napster, Kazaa, and about a thousand others. The only remaining possibility I could envision would be if someone could integrate my Tivo and my desktop computer... Dammit.... That's a Windows Media Center PC!
- Most importantly: God forbid have a profitable venture. Let's face a hard fact here. While there is still a great deal of pride left in software development, and people can swallow their pride, they can't feed their families with it. Software development is a capitalist-driven adventure. Hyperbole aside, writing a commercial program these days is about making money; with competition like Microsoft you need to create a product that everyone wants badly enough to switch to a non-Windows compatible computer.
Community support?
Some might ask "...But Wayne, what about shareware and freeware apps?", and I hear you. While there have been commercial products available, after the death of Commodore ten years ago, the classic Amiga platform has really been supported the last ten years by nothing more than freeware and shareware. As you see by Aminet though, over the last ten years, the graph has fallen completely away from shareware and freeware and is now mostly child products2 such as music files or 1k demos.
What drives sales of X-Box (and other) gaming hardware is the existence of new, exciting, and technologically advanced games. What drives the sale of the PC is a massive amount of available software; as well as the latest games, not ports of games from other platforms.
Murky future
Let's presume for the sake of imagination that Amiga OS 4 is finally released this summer and both companies finally have saleable products that are available in the necessary quantities through proper distribution channels. In other words, say in a few months we finally have an even playing field. Then what?
Once on an even field, the question really becomes whether either company actually does the only thing that's important to the survival of the Amiga platform. To me, brand loyalty and religious zeal aside, that sole important thing is whether either company can actually generate (or motivate) the actual production of the useable, unique software that's required to keep the platform alive.
The answer, in my never-so-humble opinion, is simply "no." Neither Amiga Inc, KMOS, nor Genesi have anything in place to promote, support, or push many developers in the right direction beyond a few dead mailing lists and Tao's intent documentation. Genesi in my opinion seems to be taking baby-steps in the right direction with the MorphOS Developer Connection (MDC - http://mdc.morphos.net/ (http://"http://mdc.morphos.net/)). I'm sure that the Amiga people have their own NDA'd version of things, but even that isn't enough , I feel, because it's only known by people who've actually heard of the Amiga-and that number is quickly dwindling.
My point is: without real software the Amiga is a PowerPC Linux machine or, in the case of the classic Amiga, a toy with no remaining commercial purpose. That's how far the classic Amiga platform has sunk after being mishandled by a handful of just seemingly clueless parent companies. It's kind of like browsing the Internet with your Commodore 64. It can be done, but why?! Similarly, the fact that you can browse the Internet on your Amiga (or Pegasos) won't sell a single motherboard when people can run out and buy a cheap PC system, take it out of the box, turn it on, insert a CD, and do what they want.
I would love to hear anyone's ideas on how to stimulate software development, taking into consideration that neither Amiga Inc. nor Genesi seem to be really able to pour money into it like they should. At this point, we can only hope KMOS - whomever they may be - will be a step in the right direction. The only remaining question and concern on my mind is "Who is this new KMOS, and why have they owned the AmigaOS but been silent for almost a year?"
A new hope?
At the end of my little ramble here, I'd like to point out that all is not yet lost. While I honestly do not believe any platform will ever reach the pinnacle of success seen by Microsoft's Windows, it's still very possible to adapt the future of our platform to non-desktop machines, and no, I'm not talking about AmigaDE.
Devices like the "Mini-ITX" form factor (thanks Xeron for the correction) AmigaOne open up all sorts of avenues for small embedded devices such as Digital Video Recorders (DVR), or, better yet, a Digital Video Studio (Server) in a small, portable box. Can you say "$300 Digital Media creation laptop server?" I hope we all can someday.
1 Excluding systems that shipped with Linux (after all, who really cares about Linux on either hardware platform?), which of us would have actually purchased either expensive solution specifically to run Linux? I'm betting very few, if any.
2 Child products are those downloads which are not truly products in themselves, but things like mods and pictures that have been created with another already existing product.
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Hi Wayne.
Interesting article. I think you mean "Mini-ITX" form factor AmigaOne, though.
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That's the one. Very small.
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>Later, just as Gateway was looking to purchase
>Amiga, Microsoft was taking over in the office
>with Microsoft Office and Windows, which helped
>it invade the work place with great success.
Before MS Office there was Lotus and Word Perfect for the PC...
>Give away a lot of full systems. As Genesi is
>now discovering, this method doesn't
>automatically mean that the recipients will
>actually produce things for your platform.
Middleware could an issue, e.g. MONO dotNET would be ideal.
Genesi may have to assess the type of software vendors e.g. targeting CRM/MIS vendors (i.e. software companies that actually solving business problems and has access to real business rules).
For example, we use HP PCs for value adding our custom MIS/Knowbased Systems/Accounting software.
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Before MS Office there was Lotus and Word Perfect for the PC...
Granted, but neither really had the "market cornering impact" of Office, much the same as there were browsers before IE, but IE is taking over the browser market.
I honestly believe that either KMOS, or Genesi could wing their way into the "Middleware" market, but only with dedicated devices, and none of these are what we would ever recall as being "an Amiga" -- unless they want to follow the mistakes of Sony, Nintendo, and Sega by introducing a new gaming platform.
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Wayne I think you've made some great points. Right now, I basically
see the A1/Pegasos as "expensive toys for amiga/ex-amiga nuts" and
honestly don't see the desktop as the ultimate (successful) future for
either.
Innovation is really the answer here...rebuilding the "amiga" to run on
semi-modern hardware is definately cool, although it's not going to
sell outside a few thousand hobbyists.
The "Q-Box" and OS5 ideas are a start, as far as combining some sort
of amiga concept into a modern hw/sw structure...however, do the
originators of these concepts even have any idea of what they mean,
or where they're headed? (probably not)
Ways these platforms could sustain:
1: Innovate the "amiga" ideas into a modern concept (as above), hope there's a market for
it and it sells (realistically I don't see this happening)
2: Companies involved score major hardware contracts (also unlikely IMO)
3: Develop the OS's into something far more usable/stable/modern, and hope to
somewhat subsist catering to a broader "niche" market (I see this as 'possible')
4: ?
IMO, the future for a continually developed AOS lies ultimately in AROS. MorphOS
and the Pegasos is great, and I'm sure OS4 will be fun for it's users, but I think
Genesi/KMOS(?) will have to pull a rabbit out of their respective hats.
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What you need is SOFTWARE and good quality software to run on it.
If the software is old or rubbish, no matter how good the A1 hardware or OS is, they won`t buy it and stick to Consoles or PC.
At the moment, this is NO software to speak of. You could count it on one hand.
Games drove the first Amiga models (esp the A500)
so getting ports of popular games across and some original software will get people their wallets out....
I left the Amiga scene at the end of 1999 due to the age of my 1200 and the lack of good quality software. It had practically dried up.
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It's clear enough:
MiniITX AmigaOne, nice case, Amizilla, USB stuff, Quake Saga and some other LAN party games, some good emulators, and/or versions of main programs for PC and Mac :-)
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@puppy,
I would love if those things were available, but ports of things already available for a (far cheaper) PC are not going to pursuade people to give up the PC in the first place.
*If* the future Amiga platform has any place on the desktop (or entertainment center) it has to serve an ORIGINAL and exciting purpose, not just another way to play that which is available elsewhere.
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One think I know for sure and feel even more so now that I have started thinking of getting a Peg II is OS4 better come fast. They are falling WAY behind MorphOS and could get left in the dust.
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From purely an end user perspective, MorphOS seems to be heading in the right direction. I agree it's baby steps but it is more than I see ATM from the OS4 side. I mean absolutely no disrespect to Hyperion when I say this.
1)Office: Papyrus supposedly near completeion.
2)Browser: Supposedly Intent/DE can bring FireFox
3)Java: Intent/DE gives that
4)Modern media players: MPlayer does quite well, though could use a better UI
5)Developers: The Phree boards and MDC is a good start
It seems some of the critical apps are being addressed. While the steps above certainly don't guarantee anything, it seems to be sure death without. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen these things addressed at all for OS4.
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Some good points all round here I think.
My belief in what drove the original Amiga market are based on several things. I got my A500 for games, some of the best games, anywhere at the time. Once I owned it, I realised both the hardware and OS were cutting edge, and I branched out into graphic design, and 3d modelling.The Amiga got me my job in the games industry, nothing else I could of afforded would have allowed that.
I see nothing cutting edge in any of the new succesors to AmigaOS. People flocked to the Amiga because they wanted to work on something brilliant, at a very competative price (compared to the mac/wintels).The new machines cannot compete with the price of wintel boxes.
So what have we got- Users? fewer every year, now spread over two platforms. {bleep}iness between the two which would never have happened in the old, unified Amiga community.
Software? Most of the games developers/ software developers have moved on. One thing about the Ami was the fact that she had some of the best software anywhere, but our competitors did not realsie it until it was ported to their machine (which most of it now has been). The exclusive smugness I got from being able to use imagine,lightwave,Cinema4D,Pagestream has gone now-they are either available on other platforms or gone completly from our own.
Without state of the art OS/hardware, lots of software,lots of users, decent price- where is there for the Amiga to go? I don't see anywhere other than a small old school community of fans.
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I belive this editorial deserves some thought before truely posting a comment but I haven't the time just yet so I'll say this.
Much as Linux took the world by means of simply being hardware independent through massive open source support I feel that the Amiga could find some success through this avenue. Become hardware independent and easier to install and use with Microsoft (evil idea but Linux still hasn't gotten it through their head they need to do this).
It really wont work as a Hardware thing, the Amiga of old is dead and gone and unique and interesting hardware just wont win without being dirt cheap and easily usable with any kind of software so I think the Amiga community needs to give up on this venture. When you can buy a cheap Dell for 400 bucks that will do everything one might want, it just isn't worth it to spend a couple thousand for a computer with no software support.
Anyway, this is only a taste of my thoughts and I really enjoyed the article. I wish the original Amiga had survived, as it was truely an amazing piece of engineering for its time and clearly thinking well outside the box of todays hardware.
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I think you've missed the third leg in the Amiga Community, AROS. AROS offers something the other two do not, x86 support and a open source OS for the Community. No shell games over IP. No more law suits. No more broken promises of employment. No more being locked into vender hardware. Just coders, users, and a few companies who are interested in AROS and will support AROS. If that doesn't remind you what the Amiga Community spirit is all about, you've using Windows too much. :lol:
Dammy
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@Dammy,
Didn't miss it at all. AROS is not a company, nor does it even have 1/4 the resources and contacts of any existing "Amiga company". Leave it to you however to try and take any subject and point it to AROS. :-)
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Ever heard Meya singing her song called 'It's all about the money'? Not? May I share my thinking..?
For the average "Joe" it's not about who or what is out there. It's simply about how far he can reach out. So mabye the Amiga do not really need that special-new-killer-application after all. Now if Joe can afford to reach out for all of them, then what?
Some Joes might take one. Some Joes might take two. Any some confused Joes might take all 3 of them (Amiga, PC and a MAC)
If price is not an issue, then what is?
Amiga don't need any new great idea become no. 1 once again. We just need to do the exact same things as anyone else do, except a lot better. (Yeah! I remember Steve Jobs. But who can really afford a Mac?)
BTW, Who is not eager to swap out Windows for something a bit more reliable..?
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One thing that could help drive the Amiga is that it isn't Windows. Amiga should chose markets where being a small player is a plus. Windows is so ubiquitous that it is very easy to hack or have infected by spyware or viruses. I doubt the markets for dedicated computing devices where sensitive information is made available would go to a Windows client or server. Medical systems - hospital devices, home care medical devices, financial systems - ATM, cash registers, POS systems, automation systems - robotics, vending machines. There are entire industries that rely on such equipment, even when the economy is weak healthcare, banks, foodservice, and manufacturing continues.
These are systems that are perfect for the Amiga. The thing they need though are great RAD development tools such as AmigaVision or Macromedia products, and mature visual C, JAVA, or BASIC programming tools that support advanced technology such as XML and SOAP.
Amiga would then be wise to court large companies such as Panasonic, Sharp, and Sony to use the Amiga OS in their products.
The sales and use of the OS in these devices would help feed Amiga in the business end so that it could supply general computing devices for the hobby end of the market. The most we could hope for is to have the Amiga be as strong as it was when the A500 was released.
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Well, I'm trying to think of an analogy, perhaps I will use one from the world of politics.
In the United States we have only two political parties right? Democrats and Republicans.
Wrong. We have only two 'major' political parties. 3rd parties like Natural law, Green Party, Libertarian Party, even socialist parties, remnants of the Reform party, not only exist, but in terms of 'profitability' they are healthy.
OK, before I digress too much. This does relate to Amiga. If you want to establish a profitable platform, you can. If you want to compete with windows, you won't.
Any one of these little political parties that thinks its going to compete with the established,entrenched major parties, is a failure. Any one of these little parties that takes it's own membership from last year, as a baseline, and then targets membership growth, can report a success of 25% on a year over year basis.
There is a market for the Amiga.
If you can accept what the Amiga is today.
Establish a baseline.
And then improve on that.
Then you will have success.
If you have your head in the clouds, then you will only ever see utter, complete, dismal, failure.
The problem here, is Genesi and Amiga, Inc. (don't know about KMOS) they don't know what there market is, and can't address the market that exists, because they cannot even see it. They simply lack the ability to take their heads out of the clouds.
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... every platform had a-buzzword alert!- "killer app" that brought people to the platform itself. The classic Amiga had-in my case-games like F/A-18 Interceptor that used 16-bit color
Erm, are you sure about that? 64k colours on an A500 simultaneously?
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Erm, are you sure about that?
No. It was actually quite a debate, but we couldn't find anything that could confirm it at the time it was written. If you read the entire article and came away with that as your only question, we need to get you away from the microscope more often :)
Wayne
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What will drive the New Amiga?
Nothing whatsoever, offers nothing at all to a normal everyday computer user.
Amiga TAX on hardware
Lack of software
Crooked companies
Imo nothing will change at all.
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Imo nothing will change at all.
Then why are you here, and why are you bothering to post? Surely someone of your importance has something better to do.
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Paul, I usually like your no-nonsense approach, but I disagree with you this time.
If the theory doesn't fit with reality, then its time for a new theory.
The fact is, we are here. This is a community of Amigans. Despite the fact that the perfectly sound theory exists for why we aren't here...we are here.
If they sold 1000 boards last year, assuming they didn't do a perfect job, they can improve the job they are doing and sell 1500 this year. Then you have growth. You continue growth long enough, you have a platform.
The problem I have, is that everyone is following into the same trap Wayne has fallen into, comparing the Amiga to past glories or to windows.
It seems too bitter a pill to recognize the market at 1000 and create a realistic plan to grow the real market.
I saw this in the Libertarian party too, for 10 years they were stuck at 10,000 members. For 10 years they kept trying to launch themselves into political wins, with the 'wisdom' of their arguments with the knowlege they had 'right' on their side. Then one day they realized, money wins elections...then they realized they didn't have enough, but what money they did have, was coming from their membership.
Then they realized they needed to grow their membership. That they couldn't even think about winning an election until they had 250,000 members, that was the amount of membership they would need, before they could raise the $$$ it takes to win.
Now, its been another decade, they still haven't won an election, but they have grown from 10,000 members to over 50,000. They have grown 5 times, and they will have to grow 5 times again before winning their first election.
We are here. There is a market. But currently amiga leadership wants to use this market simply as a springboard to success in the wider market...as they would call it 'the real market'
Only problem is, realistically speaking this market isn't big enough to do that. If that is the plan, great. But be realists...you have to grow this market first.
They need to swallow a real bitter pill: this market has 2000 people. And this is their market.
They need to find out why we are here, and then address our real interests. Grow this market from year to year, and maybe someday it will springboard you out.
Anyway I think this whole talk is a trap. It gets people back into the 'glory days' mode.
We'll never get anywhere until we realize what the Amiga is today...and realizing that we have to go for incremental growth.
Its a real bitter bill to think that, we have only 2000 people today, and that 3000 people is real growth for next year. But that just may be, the only realistic way of getting to the 100,000 strong community that is really needed before this community is enough to launch genesi or kmos to greater success.
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Nothing whatsoever, offers nothing at all to your normal everyday computer user
Ypu really should just move on if you think that way.
What made the AMiga A success was simply that it was marketed like a games machine, but offered so much more coupled with an easy to use OS and advanced graphics/sound system. In other words you got morethan you bargained for at a relatively inexpensive price.
All we have to do is the same thing again.
First it needs an identity, these generic cases, however nice they get, dont do it. We need a case that yells AMIGA.
There are two places the Amiga could break into the market for a sustained and healthy profit flow. Industry/kiosk systems and that kind of thing, which wont really get it into the public eye, and a multimedia entertainment platform that can replace the DVD, CD, stero, VCR, surround sound systems, radio, maybe even cable TV, provide the households internet gateway, AND be a useful workstation/games machine as the bonus.
In my home I currently have 4 sperate devices(5 if you count the surround sound system) The AMiga could easily be designed to fill this space as all these other machines (stereo DVD VCR surround and cable) the cable part is where a partnership with a cable tv provider would be required, but ignoring that I would still be eliminating 5 device for 2 device(not including the cable) on top of that it can run as a normal computer/games machine.
this could very well get the machine into enough homes to bring the developers back, however it would need to be marketed well, and it would have to be soon as there are manufacturers who are beginning to move in this direction.
I have thought of doing this myself for years, and have set up my PC to do this in my computer room, the only thing I am missing is a TV tuner board.Even still, it is not integrated too well and is just a bunch of seperate and competing interfaces on my computer, easy to use for me but not others who are not familiar with my system.
Combine this with internet gateway and wireless networking/bluetooth technology with properly integrated software interface, a strong and well marketed identity, and you have a winner!
Something like th NGAGE using wireless technology and the Amiga as a server for network games mayhem in the household could work well too in support.
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A good set of points, Wayne. I'm far less convinced that there is a sensible and detached cool head amongst the power corridors to turn things roud though. Everyone is just too entrenched in their own political corner and too afraid of diluting the perceived power they now hold.
As for the mainstream, I doubt the Amiga has either the innovation or quality to break back into it, either at desktop or digital device level, and this applies as much to AmigaOS4/AmigaOne efforts as it does to MorphOS/Pegasos ones.
The problem isn't that there are no more opportunities left in the digital markets, it's just that there's a whole long queue of other developers who are closer to that goal and have better resources than either of the Amiga contenders.
As for AROS, it is barely on the first rung of the ladder to be seen as a real OS, and a far way from there to be even noticed by the mainstream. To talk of AROS as a mainstream contender today or in the next few years is ridiculous.
When that changes, I'll be more than happy to acknowledge it, but for now Wayne was right to ignore it.
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Then why are you here
For the updates of Amithlon and AROS. (both are my favorites and do not cost me the earth).
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If they sold 1000 boards last year, assuming they didn't do a perfect job, they can improve the job they are doing and sell 1500 this year. Then you have growth. You continue growth long enough, you have a platform.
And there you have the first major hurdle.
The Amiga scene is full of fanatics, so while you may have an encouraging initial sales figure, what you then see is everything levelling out and sales drying off as you saturate the existing market. Assuming that you'll attract another 1500 in the second year is ever so optimistic without much basis. Assuming that there are 50,000 ex-Amigans just dying to return is delusional at best.
Stopping the exodus for longer than a few months would be a start, then looking to grow the market by a few hundred for a few years. The trouble is that technology moves a helluva lot faster these days, and the chances of Amiga technology keeping up well enough to even keep people from leaving again is slim indeed.
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OK clearly I'm off on my own little tangent here.
But, again, using a unknown political group as an example.
If you heard a group was founding in 1970's, after much initial excitement, has stagnated, never won an election...what would you think of their long term prospects?
If you heard of a group, that was initially a great failure, but made some real hard decisions, has never won an election, but has a plan to grow their membership, has done so every year, growing five times their size in the past decade, what would you think of their long term prospects?
We have two groups of leaders who think they are the ultimate sales people. But what do you think of their long term prospects?
They set themselves up for failure every year, because they tell us to compare ourselves realistically to Windows, and so year after year, with only failure to report, they wonder why sales are down.
I think they should establish a baseline, compare themselves to last year, and have good news to report for once. It partially just salemanship but on the other hand, good news, is part of what this community wants...they just don't understand or care about this community :-(
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Assuming that you'll attract another 1500 in the second year is ever so optimistic without much basis
Exactly, and herein lies the whole point of the article (since everyone appears to have missed it even though I EXPLICITLY stated it). How do we move beyond the existing community? The biggest issue is the creation of software which brings people to the platform. Right now there is no incentive for any PC user to buy one. If we're going to survive, at least one of the companies involved has to find a way to motivate sales outside the existing (dwindling) community who -- for the most part -- already owns either an AmigaOne or Pegasos.
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I really don't think anyone's getting the political thing here. English works.
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How do we move beyond the existing community?
Advertise outside of the market, show the product A1/Pegasos at big venues instead of places aimed at Amiga users.
A place like Bowlers (http://www.computermarkets.co.uk/) would be a good start, shove the product in the middle of that place and it will get major attention (attracts over 3000 customers each week and that is in one day :-) )
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edit...going to ignore the troll bait, and will do a different response.
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If we're going to survive, at least one of the companies involved has to find a way to motivate sales outside the existing (dwindling)
Actually I addressed your point multiple times, and you've chosen not to understand it.
Its the above assumption that is entirely unrealistic. We cannot use this community as a springboard to 'outside' success...this community is not large enough for that.
This community has to grow much larger, before that is a realistic option. And the companies, genesi and amiga, inc. let this community dwindle while concentrating almost entirely on that outside community you speak of.
that is the same strategy that they have been trying with FAILURE for the past several years.
everyone keeps looking at the fact that the sales are mainly in this community and looking at that as the PROBLEM.
the sales are the good thing. The lack of sales are the problem.
Realistically speaking, they need to get their head out of the clouds and see where sales really come from, and then improve on that.
the political analogy may be hard to understand, but its still apropos...sometimes people get their head around a concept and they can never pull their heads out of the clouds.
What you propsed Wayne...is exactly the same thing that has been proposed over and over again, with nothing new added, for the past 5 years.
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Paul_Gadd wrote:
Nothing whatsoever, offers nothing at all to a normal everyday computer user.
Amiga TAX on hardware
Lack of software
Crooked companies
Imo nothing will change at all.
Broken record strikes again.
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@Wayne
How do we move beyond the existing community? The biggest issue is the creation of software which brings people to the platform. Right now there is no incentive for any PC user to buy one.
The short answer is: "I don't know". I don't even know if there is an answer any more.
A few years ago I would have said "Concentrate on one relatively innovative thing and do it well". That's why I was quite taken by the idea of dropping all hardware interests (since there are thousands of specialist hardware manufacturers out there that are going to handle hardware innovation much better) and concentrating on creating a light, efficient and above all hardware agnostic OS. Not just write once run everywhere, but compile once and run everywhere. That failed because the underlying technology wasn't geared up to it, and the priorities of the developers of that technology were focused elsewhere. Next step would have been to encourage developers with free developer information and masses of support. The SDKs were woefully inept and sold at a ridiculous price (the excuse being "well, Microsoft are doing it..."). The "support" required a morass of NDAs and SDAs and the sort of secrecy that would put off any serious developer straight away. Not the way to do things at all.
The Pegasos/MorphOS situation is slighly different, but no less dispiriting. To my mind there is no direction, no real focus to grasp on to and build on. The technolgy isn't really innovative, nor are the concepts, and once you strip away the enthusiasm and self-congratulations for having actually released something there is little that stands out.
If the question is: "how do we make the great unwashed take note of the AmigaOne/Pegasos and make them buy it?" my answer would be "you don't". These products are simply not good enough. Neither are AmigaOS4 or MorphOS.
To break into the mainstream, you'd need a complete fresh start and total rethink from scratch. I don't think that's remotely likely to happen, so I don't think the mainstream is attainable no matter what is done with current resources and products.
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How do we move beyond the existing community?
IMO, get at least Mozilla and OpenOffice ported to AmigaOS/compatibles. That would get the attention of Slashdot users as well as techie-journos. It would certainly make Amiga/compatible platforms a far more realistic choice for newcomers. An increased userbase will coax developers into taking a serious look.
It's not going to be something that happens overnight. I reckon the process will take at least a few years before noteworthy amounts of newcomers become Amiga/compatible users (and maybe not as their primary platform, but having the hardware, even if they dualboot with Linux, is a start).
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For the record, I wasn't trying to be abrasive, or even troll. I just wasn't following the continual, very wide political analogy tangent.
This platform is not going to survive selling to inside this community. Eventually even this small niche will become saturated, and you'd have no one left to sell to.
If you're trying to suggest that there's no way to get outside this community, we might as well quit now. :-)
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Well i decided to buy my ppc card and build my a1200 back in 1996/97 and when gateway took over amiga things started to look better comanys started to release a bit more software and the revival was what most of us were expecting now we have some two hardware systems and operating systems to continue from the classic amiga but there has not been any good comercial software for ages and most amiga and pegasos users are the ones that have owned amiga,s in the past most people can build or buy a pc cheaply and use a free os with free software like linux ,so buying expensive hardware and an os which does not have the latest games or aplications puts off pc owners at least the mac had a nice case as standard shame about the minimal software for it but the mac market is still alot bigger than the amiga after so many owners and direction changes even with the right software we will never gain the status we once had at school the amiga was the computer to have .amd now Out of everyone i know im the only person that likes and still uses and has an amiga most people have moved on after the mainstream games stopped .We are the ones keeping the spirit of the machine alive .a massive comeback would never happen now its been to long, but we can hope im staying on this ship until it sinks.
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IMO, get at least Mozilla and OpenOffice ported to AmigaOS/compatibles. That would get the attention of Slashdot users as well as techie-journos
Your right there i downloaded the latest Mozilla for windows and i must say its the best browser i have use not a single crash and not bloated i love how easy it is to get difrent plugins and features to make it work how you want i have mouse gestures and loads of difrent search engine an rss news feed reeder ,dictionary ,session saver and reload every plugin this browser is easy and much more configarable than any i have used .Openoffice is also great very powerfull and the gimp would also be a nice peice of software to have.
This platform is not going to survive selling to inside this community. Eventually even this small niche will become saturated, and you'd have no one left to sell to.
Good point .
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AmigaOSes (AOS,MOS,AROS) should be hardware independent*, if we want to survive: The hardware is obsolate after a few time, but the software can be upgrated relatively with ease.
The point that Linux is h/w independent isn't valid: the user base has x86 on its majority, and that is the driving force (cheap hardware).
We had to stuck with old hardware (over 10 years) due to custom h/w and h/w-dependant OS. I don't believe that you planing to have the today's solution (A1 or Peg) for the next 10 years (just to write off the expenses!!!).
With a compatibility through the 3 solutions, the s/w development would be easy to port on a large scale with no time delays.
*Before someone says "yes, but the above OSes are designed independently from the platform", noone can run them if he hasn't an A1, a Pegasos, or a PC, respectively...
________
Amazon Gift Cards (http://bestfreegiftcard.com/amazon-gift-cards/)
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Hi,
It's being said a lot before but not having a decent browser is a serious prob. I don't see that a decent browser would appear this year. Also what you see is a lot of talk. There is so much talk going on but just little gets done. And let's have OS4 out first. :-)
Coder
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Ooh.. Some nice big reading :-) Have to tag this to read later tomorow..
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Poster: Wayne Posted: 2004/3/22 17:04:32
Erm, are you sure about that?
No. It was actually quite a debate, but we couldn't find anything that could confirm it at the time it was written. If you read the entire article and came away with that as your only question, we need to get you away from the microscope more often :)
I think it was hey nay no 16bit (~65000) colours
4096 colours at max the A500 could come up with, (in HAM6) That is using the complete Amiga500 (ocs/ecs) colour palette. You need h/w to come up with more colours.
But back on topic. GAMES are the magical word for a revival of Amiga. Everyone who I am talking about know about Commodore and Amiga. And everyone says it's a game computer. EVERYONE! And that's a better start to make a games machine than you can dream of, considering MS struggle to market the Xbox as a gameconsole.
I also bet that there are more ppl at an adult age (= money earning/owning age) who have heard of Commodore but never heard of Xbox.
And with that, Amiga needs games with their own (unique, yet recognisable) face, alike Nintendo with their Gamecube.
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Poster: Wayne Posted: 2004/3/22 9:30:58
Didn't miss it at all. AROS is not a company
Neither is Linux. :)
Dammy
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So what I haven't seen here is a suggestion to make Amiga into something that the average desktop computer isn't.
Portable. And useful.
I'm talking about a sub-$500 handheld with wifi and possibly GPRS that runs amiga OS4 on a barebones (400 Mhz?) handheld PowerPC platform, let's say 640x480 video, 4GB microdrive, touchscreen, firewire, usb2, CF, maybe 128 MB ram. This level of hardware would be fairly easy to implement for cheap. No need to muck around with ARM processors, IBM and MOT have scaled the PPC down to an embedded form factor so your OS3/4 codebase will work just fine. Make it a multi-media computer in your hand. You'll have assloads of older games to exploit for content, plus some great lo-res graphics and fx utilities.
Why not? People go for Palm OS not because it is compatible, but because it works well, is easy to use and has the features they need in one package.
With the right feature set and marketing, a device like this could take off, if only marketed to the MP3/Gameboy/early adopter markets. There's no WAY an Amiga would ever take over the business PDA market, so why try? I for one would love to have a handheld computer that could record hi-fidelity audio or video and play games and chat over wifi. It could be the new Walkman.
Or maybe not.
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Its all kinda mute at this point as there is no mini-itx or OS4 available. How it is packaged, reviewed and of course the "price" will be the deciding factor.
It should be fun, when it arrives. :-)
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With the right feature set and marketing, a device like this could take off, if only marketed to the MP3/Gameboy/early adopter markets. There's no WAY an Amiga would ever take over the business PDA market, so why try? I for one would love to have a handheld computer that could record hi-fidelity audio or video and play games and chat over wifi. It could be the new Walkman.
Many people now have turned their attention to PDAs and mobiles. It's a new battle field, and a place where is a chance for competition (not yet monopolized).
________
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>Windows is so ubiquitous that it is very easy
>to hack
It's about the same as with Linux/GNU/KDE distros. Except, one doesn’t have the media exposure as Windows. (hint: use google to search for Linux/GNU/KDE).
Note that a Lindows(budget Walmart PCs)(Linux distro) has duplicate Windows XP (non-SP2) style security).
>or have infected by spyware or viruses.
Security by obscurity is flawed.
With WinXP SP2(recalling)
1. NX instructions(ATM only with AMD64 CPUs) in will reduce the buffer overflow issues.
2. Apply memory protection for Window's network infrastructure. Other device drivers remains as non-memory protected(for speed issues).
3. Apply Java VM style for MS's Active scripts.
>I doubt the markets for dedicated computing
>devices where sensitive information is made
>available would go to a Windows client or
>server.
Plenty of small business is currently using MS Windows 2003 ‘Small Business Server’ Edition as their mission critical server OS.
> Medical systems - hospital devices, home care
> medical devices, financial systems - ATM, cash
> registers, POS systems, automation systems -
> robotics, vending machines.
Note that there are Windows based system for ATM(i.e. did you miss The Inquirer’s BSOD ATM screen shots?), Train time table displays(Aussie state of NSW's RTA), Guided Missile Frigates(US Navy), POS systems(my local shoe shop has serveral of them) and 'etc'. Also note that there are mission critical MIS systems that runs on Windows system.
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@Dammy
Well, Linux has a corporate backing e.g. Red Hat, Novell, SUN, IBM, ‘etc’.
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Granted, but neither really had the "market cornering impact" of Office, much the same as there were browsers before IE, but IE is taking over the browser market.
Note that Netscape use to have a dominate position (Netscape 6 didn't help thier cause).
I honestly believe that either KMOS, or Genesi could wing their way into the "Middleware" market,
An example of "middleware" is
Oracle i.e. plenty of MIS/CRM vendors builds thier products and services around this middleware. MS/MONO.NET is another middleware infrastructure for application programmers to build on and provide RAD(rapid application development) products and services. The same thing is true for Java.
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Hi team
You want to know what could drive AmigaOid sales:
Here:
Poweroid 1204 silent PC
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/71/36437.html
There is a real market for "affordable" computers that don't sound like a Jet Engine.
The AmigaOid OS's are very nearly usable (Open office and Mozilla would be a huge help here) and if "Joe Public" could have a computer that did what they required without warming their house or waking there neighbours.... They will be interested.
Lets look at what AmigaOids do well:
1. Boot REALLY REALLY fast.
2. Have the potential to be really silent.
Lets build on our strengths.
Regards
Darren
(Poor grammer, typos and spelling are DELIBERATE )
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Poster: Hammer Posted: 2004/3/22 17:04:53
Well, Linux has a corporate backing e.g. Red Hat, Novell, SUN, IBM, ‘etc’.
My point is Linus did not have any corp support in the beginning with his Linux. Linux afterall is just a kernel, the other stuff was added on to Linux kernel as time went on. Eventually the Big money found Linux as a suitable replacement of M$ warez, but that is a recent event. Linus with his Linux, and a host of other Open Source OSs developers all travelled down a bumpy dirt road of developement. Just like AROS has been. Asked me in 1990 which OS, AmigaOS or Linux would be flurishing in 15 years, I would have have said Amiga. Afterall Linux has no support and no company backing it where Amiga had the mighty C=. How wrong I would have been.
Feel free is discount AROS as much as you want. M$ did with Linux so many moons ago.
Dammy
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Wayne has got the point here... As a matter of fact pretty much all of my postings to Amiga.org over the last year or so were about "missing" software... Now - problem with this one in year 2004, again as Wayne pointed out earlier on, is that we don’t even have a decent web browser not to mention some "killer ap." And if anyone thinks that some amazing software will appear on Amiga any time soon must be crazy... There are many reasons why... In my opinion there was, and perhaps still is, only one way to penetrate households world wide and move beyond current and dying Amiga market - and that is through existing x86 systems that are on everybody’s desks. So in short this is the way to stay alive...
1. Unity (community and the big names)
2. x86 (ideally)
3. Cheep DVD with AMIGA OS4, DEVELOPING TOOLS and ESSENTIAL SOFTWARE (Page stream, Photogenics, Image FX...etc)crammed in and available everywhere
Very simple - in year or two, half of the world would know about it and would be dual booting into it with pleasure...
After that we can start thinking about some specially configured Amiga Ones with stickers and other rubish...
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I think we're all losing the plot here.
We are starting to think either like PC users, with out thirst for apps, or Console user with our thirst for games.
We have to get back to basics as to what the Amiga actually was in the beginning.
The Amiga was a microcomputer and that is a different concept to either a PC or a console.
A microcomputer was a hobbiests or leisure machine. It was a joy to use an Amiga vs a PC. The Amiga was a plug in and go platform, and if you didn't want to you didn't have to go anywhere near the OS.
We need to go back to the Amiga's roots, it was a games console that could be used as a computer. It was a super Commodore 64.
What we need now is a super Amiga. Unfortunately we cannot obtain as significant an advantage as the original Amiga made. So now we need to make a compromise.
What it was that made the Amiga great is synonymous with what its reputation was.
It wowed in terms of Multimedia and astonishing graphics.
It wowed in terms of games.
It wowed the geeks at the time in terms of its OS, but I don't think people were nearly as interested in that, at the time as us current enthusiasts are. The OS did not sell the system.
The games and the demos and the graphics were slick. The OS is not, but it should be made to be, with at the very least a skinnable interface.
We are all looking at AOS4 to renew the platform and make it more functional, however this is a PC perspective. We shouldn't even be thinking of competing with the PC because from a price perspective, offering the same thing, or worse for more money is not going to cut it.
We need the Amiga to go back to do what it is good at, and the OS is just the icing on the cake for those that want to use its advanced functionality.
If you've done any research on Garry Hare(KMOS) you will see that his background is in streaming media and content distribution. It is obvious that it is his intention that the Amiga pursue that route.
The most popular Amiga, the A500 was popular because you could plug it into a TV, like a console. You wouldn't even think of hooking your PC to TV. You do with Consoles but then you're trapped in the dumbed down gaming concepts of consoles.
IMO the NG Amiga should be a set top box or hifi component. Not quite a console, but a thinking mans advanced leisure machine.
My wishlist for features that could be done from an enhanced front end, like DVD menus would be.
* The ability to Play or Burn DVDs and CDs.
* The ability to play the latest game on demand. (Even old games through UAE)
* Cable (HDTV) ready built in.
* The ability to record programs to HD or DVD like Tivo.
* The ability to browse the internet and access e-mail.
* The ability to easily sync ipod and pdas.
You would automatically be able to download and play the latest music or music videos on demand.
Having games on Demand is a similar concept to the Phantom console. It negates the need for the distribution of software to stores which is probably a tough nut to crack and developers would immediately reap a reward. Piracy could be diminshed because Gary Hare already has a methodology which prevents the entirety of the software to be transmitted at any one time.
As a set top machine it should have a (Radio) cordless mouse and keyboard that you can use from a couch. I have one of these for my PC plugged into my TV and its awesome and very very usable. Not many people would think to do such a thing, but let me tell you are missing out on a concept I believe the Amiga once ruled and can rule again.
The look of the system should be like a "Sharper Image" product. It should be stylish and retro, With shiny metal and glowing blue bits. My preference would be to house a small portable keyboard in a garage underneath like the A1000 and maybe have a little slot for the Mouse so you don't lose it and it can recharge. The case should also be small and slick. The cheapest motherboard should be used, because I would imagine that its the 3d card that makes the difference. It should come with the most kick ass 3d card available at the time, but that component should be upgradable even if the CPU is not. If they want to upgrade then there are A1 desktop boxes that a lot of you are interested in.
The users may eventually be coaxed to use the Amiga OS, rather than a graphical front end, to do stuff like word processing and the like, but right now, its the concept and features that bridge the PC world and the console world, that niche called leisure computing, which is where the Amiga could excel.
I think what we have to understand that the future market, where the brand counts, comes not from providing the same stuff as before, but revamping the new and innovative ideas that the original Amiga touted and is famous for.
We want go faster machines and we'll get them. The general public wants something else entirely, to what they currently have and they want to buy into the Amiga spirit of innovation and slickness. I think we're just lucky that Apple haven't jumped into the set-top market yet, or we'll be finished.
I believe that people would be willing to pay the premium for such versatile hardware.
And now that I've made my sentiments clear let me talk about garnering developer support.
I agree that Amiga developers should ultimately make a profit.
We should have an "Amiga only" software developers website. On such a website developers could share code and develop a common development framework for 3d games and the like. Developers would have to become members at a fee, in order to further develop and use code that is only usable to the membership. The code is not to be used outside of Amiga platform products unless it is heavily advertising the Amiga platform. Technology, games and apps are to be voted on and project managed by volunteers. Effort expended is to be determined by each elected project manager with money going to developers of the core reused code as well as developers that made the particular project.
For instance, the community bands together to build a kickass 3d engine with tasks assigned by the project manager. The project manager assigns share to the developers based on their contributions. Another project like a gran turismo clone, uses the 3d engine. Their effort is added to the core effort and a percentage share is assigned to each of those developers. Eventually when the game is distributed/sold the shares of the profits are distributed.
The share or units, sort of like Amiga money could be used as a motivation for Amiga developers. That Amiga money could also be used to purchase other Amiga products. The goal of the website would be to create killer apps and games for the Amiga ONLY. The status of a developer's Amiga money bank account and shares would be maintained on the website like a hall of fame. This could be displayed because developers are intensely competitive. There should also be competitions to drive the technology further with rewards like more Amiga money to purchase Amiga hardware and software. This is paid by membership incidentally which could slowly be raised as the tech advantage to becoming a member improves. Obviously Amiga money can be used against annual membership or forgone completely once a developer has reached a particular level and is a major contributor.
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@dammy
Comparing Linux to AROS is like comparing Microsoft to AmigaOS: not realistic.
Sure, Linux succeeded after starting from scratch, but do you have any idea how many other wannabe operating systems, many of them very neat in terms of what they wre trying to achieve, disappeared without trace? Dozens. Maybe even hundreds.
There's nothing to suggest at this time that AROS will ever cross the boundary between being a geek developer's OS to something that can be useful on a daily basis even on a basic level, like QNX. Linux is in another league altogether. It filled a niche early on, in that it provided a replacement kernel for the GNU project to adopt when the HURD was not yet remotely usable. AROS is not so lucky, and frankly no one would notice if it simply disappeared. The developers need to up their output and their numbers considerably before any of your advocacy would be remotely justified.
@BigBenAussie
I think your post illustrates quite clearly why Amigas will never be a success again. Far too many people are stuck with the 1985 mentality, and believe that attempting to turn the clock back will bring back success. The idea that there will again be custom microcomputers that revolutionise what is available on a desktop at low prices is laughable, as is the thought that people would once again get tied to the custom hard to expand system mentality of 20 years ago.
The success of 20 years ago was to a large extent due to the favourable conditions and lack of real competition. PC's were a joke in terms of gaming or animations and they cost an arm and a leg. Elsewhere there was only the ST or the 8-bit micros to worry about. A market ripe for the taking.
Not so today. You won't beat PCs for price, and most likely not for performance, software or games either. Without massive investment in R&D, you won't beat them on technology either.
Living in the past won't make Amigas great again. Something fresh, visionary and innovative is needed, and the need is to look to the future for answers, not the past.
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@ Defender of the Faith
>I think your post illustrates quite clearly why Amigas will never be a success again.
I might argue the same for your reply. I thought you were a Defender of the Faith.
> Far too many people are stuck with the 1985 mentality, and believe that attempting to turn
> the clock back will bring back success. The idea that there will again be custom
> microcomputers that revolutionise what is available on a desktop at low prices is
> laughable, as is the thought that people would once again get tied to the custom hard to
> expand system mentality of 20 years ago.
Far too many people?? So you're saying that people that will back me up on this and this is a bad thing. ???
I think you're missing the point of my post. Its not about the hardware, its about the feeling of the platform that is the differentiation to new CONSUMERS not the current userbase. The reminiscence to the microcomputer era when computers were fun and exciting are a MAJOR draw. Its what the market has lacked for quite some time.
The stagnation of the PC market I believe counters your point in that people aren't as interested in going faster as they were before(at least until MS releases its next version of its bloatware). We've reached a speed usability threshold.
Power users care about speed, but not everyone else does if the speed of the processor is irrelevant to the thing they want to do. My whole point is that provided a system is usable and looks like the latest thing I don't need to upgrade. Tell me what the average user needs speed for these days? I know it sounds like a dumb question, but the fact of the matter is that speed has reached an acceptable level where everything is possible. AOS will be zippy enough even on hardware that is behind. The natural advantage is that the Amiga doesn't have bloatware slowing it down.
Apart from 3d games why do I need to upgrade?
That's the PC mentality you're falling into. The Amiga should not be trying to be a PC, it should be trying to be a leisure computer. A multimedia device that hides the fact that it is a computer. It should hide all its geek stuff except for those that are interested. I was discussing a consumer device, the quad G5s are for the current userbase, we can't expect newbies to fork out that much, without giving them a taste first.
> The success of 20 years ago was to a large extent due to the favourable conditions and lack > of real competition. PC's were a joke in terms of gaming or animations and they cost an arm and > a leg. Elsewhere there was only the ST or the 8-bit micros to worry about. A market ripe for
> the taking.
An Amiga branded slick multimedia consumer box does not exist at the moment. It is a market ripe for the making too.
> Not so today. You won't beat PCs for price, and most likely not for performance, software or > games either. Without massive investment in R&D, you won't beat them on technology either.
You have missed my obvious point. WE DON'T NEED TO!!! We need to combine the various features into a single unit that are seamless in a way they aren't on PCs.
> Living in the past won't make Amigas great again. Something fresh, visionary and innovative
> is needed, and the need is to look to the future for answers, not the past.
You have to face facts. The Amiga is a famous retro platform and you need to cash in on what it did best. There are new innovative things we can make it do, in terms of what I already discussed, which are harder to implement on a PC desktop. The complexity of the PC desktop is what we should be avoiding in a consumer version of the Amiga. We can play games like the consoles too, but provide much more in terms of usability. The consoles are always going to undercut us as does the PC hardware. The answer is not to compete in their markets. There is a niche market opening up, and along with the goodwill towards the Amiga it is ripe for the taking, and its a pity you can't see it.
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@BigBenAussie
First of all, I don't call myself "Defender of the Faith". That's a ranking based on the number of posts here on Amiga.org, and nothing to do with me.
Secondly, what you are talking about is a vague re-creation of 1985, without any real specifics of how you are to acheieve this miracle. Yes, I read your post and it contained nothing of substance, just vaguaries like "feel" and "fun computing" etc.
People are not queueing up to buy microcomputers any more. Yes, believe it or not, microcomputer style systems are available and have been for some time. They may be based on PC technology, but the consumer wouldn't know anything about it because everything is pre-installed. Guess what? They didn't sell very well. You know why? Because people are no longer willing to spend money on restricted systems that offer no upgrade path.
There is nothing in the current Amiga systems to attract new users, even "consumers" as you call them. Amigas run sweet FA, and no developer in his right mind will work to develop Amiga only software that is only likely to reach a market of hundreds at best.
I think this niche you are talking about is an imaginary one, only found in the minds of a few people stuck in the past.
Yes, there are people who agree with you and yes, it IS a bad thing. Why? Because those people only exist within a section of the existing community. No one outside the communtiy would be remotely interested in what you propose, and those are the people that have to be targetted, not the existing community who would buy whatever is put under their nose anyway.
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To be honest, I can only come up with a few possibilities that COULD revive Amiga, and the chicken must come before the egg of software.
The Mini/Micro-itx plays a part in this.
There are many people left who have no internet access that want it but are afraid of computers. Amiga could market a STB or low end machine that is bundled with a monitor. Unlike other internet appliances, this machine should not be tied to a particular service IE: MSN or AOL. The user would be free to choose a local provider that the retailer could recommend. The machine is then cofigured at point of sale to be the customers internet solution, be it broadband or dial-up.
This would have to be a low cost product to get numbers into use.
The machine could be billed as an expandible system that could be used for other purposes as the user becomes more advanced. This would get interest from the budget minded set that needs an internet machine for the kids and would like to learn to do their taxes on it...etc.
As machines are sold, the software will come... maybe slowly at first, but it could snowball...then again, this may stand a snowball's chance...
I know... some people are thinking that this solution already exists, but it really does not, or at least not in widespread distribution.
Price is paramount and it may be necessary to run extremely low margins for some time.
Just my two cents.
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I think there is a deamnd for an alternative to Windows. I mean the local PC mags periodically do features on moving over to Linux, telling redaers just how bloated Windows is. But as always Linux is not that user frindly ie the geek image is still there. but an alternative is not impossible
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@stefcep
Note that, mainstream Linux/GNU/KDE/Grome distros(e.g. Red Hat 9, SUSE 9, Mandrake 9.1, Lindows 4.5 and ‘etc’) is pretty bloated.
Like Linux, Windows XP(NT 5.1) comes in several edition e.g. Windows XP Embedded Edition.
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Honestly I think the demand for a "Windows alternative" is
entirely exaggerated. Most people think Linux sucks, simply
becasue it doesn't run xyz app. The consumer could care less
about the OS itself, the question is "can it do what I need
it to do, and how cheap?" Things like brand recognition and
"OS feel" are meaningless in this market.
Another thing...a trashy web-box with a boingball on it is
a TERRIBLE idea...we had those here already 5+ years ago, minus
the logo, and they totally bombed. Besides, people have long
been catching on to the idea of connecting PC's to their
televisions (IMHO).
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@Marktime
I understand what you are on about. Its about changing the mindset of the people to measure our success in different ways so we can present a positive attitude. Also about changing the mindset from beating OS* to setting our own goals and achieving them, to succeed in what we want to do, not to succeed in what other guys are doing, and beating them at it, at least not yet.
@bigAussie
I know what you are getting at also, it is similar to what I was saying earlier, and what someone else was saying about portable devices.
@all
all these ideas have merit, and require a change in the attitude an mindset of everyone in the AMiga Scene.Its time to forget about what everyone else is doing, what everyone else thinks is thier way forward, and define our own goals and direction. To do that we need a clear objective, a clear meathod of reaching it and to find a market where our objectives will translate directly into sales.
Here is what I think.
The "leisure market" that was talked about was the same place as the one I was talking about it, we just came from different angles.We can expand this particular section to include the mobile market. I would prefer to call it the "semi mobile' or better still the "portable" market.
The old Amigas were portable (A500 A600 a1200 cd32), you could throw em in a bag and walk over to your mates place and have a ball. They are not laptops, though they would compete with them but you could do it at a lower price point as you can have a larger case, and hence the cheaper components. You could even add a power supply if you really wanted for say 90 minutes.This could be an optional extra.
THe old amigas were pretty much plug the thing in and play, you rarely bothered with the OS unless you were into recording and stuff, the bonus of the classic AMigas.
We need a central server based machine where it can surf the internet, print and do work, be a gateway, file server, print server for the household.Many many people have more than one computer in the house nowdays.
This can be supported with small mobile devices, that network from the Amiga, as handhelds or "workstations/netpc's"
To do this we need software like a good browser, chat clients, sound system, good graphics capability, very good networking capability, recording software DVD and wireless option built in would be a bonus. Once we have the software it needs to be integrated and as transparent as possible so those that dont want to know anything about computers dont have to.Meanwhile the rest of the functions need to be accessable by the "geeks"
Put all this together and what do we have?
We have a system that replaces the DVD/vcr recorder, supplies the surround sound for the entertainment system, plugs directly into a TV, and preferablet can fulfill the functions of the cable tv service provider box.You can also use it for games, office work, and other computer/console activities, that is also portable. It should also have its own(optional) LCD or similar screen.This system would be great for the home, and especially good for those single people working studying people. How much do all those seperate components cost?
Surround system: around $400 for a decent one
DVD about $150
Stereo $400
VCR $150
on top of that you have a PC
$900 is about the cheapest you get here and that has no graphics card worth speaking of so add $400 to that
Adds up to say a round figure of $2500.
Now if we can build a small box that can do all these things with similar quality for $1500-$2000 then we have a market, and the this is portable to-boot.
Then all we need to do is market it properly to get it in homes.
I have seen this beginning to happen slowly on other platforms, but they dont cover all the bases and the saftware if FAR from the point I have stated here.
We dont need to beat everything these seperate units can do, we just have to be compareable and price competetive, that its all in one unit and that unit is portable can be the selling points.
In this fashion we can get units in home and make a sizeable userbase for OS4 that will in turn attract more developers.
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My wishlist for features that could be done from an enhanced front end, like DVD menus would be.
* The ability to Play or Burn DVDs and CDs.
* The ability to play the latest game on demand. (Even old games through UAE)
* Cable (HDTV) ready built in.
* The ability to record programs to HD or DVD like Tivo.
* The ability to browse the internet and access e-mail.
* The ability to easily sync ipod and pdas.
Erm, Windows XP Media Centre 2004 PCs already has most of the mentioned features today. Australia has (nearly) always been late in obtaining the latest products.
You would automatically be able to download and play the latest music or music videos on demand.
Such activities are already has been done (legality is another issue) via P2P networks today. Then again, there's iTune for legal music download.
PS; I envy your optimism in relation to AOS based solution.
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The old Amigas were portable (A500 A600 a1200 cd32), you could throw em in a bag and walk over to your mates place and have a ball. They are not laptops, though they would compete with them but you could do it at a lower price point as you can have a larger case, and hence the cheaper components. You could even add a power supply if you really wanted for say 90 minutes.This could be an optional extra.
This target market could have a chance...
Threats are;
1. Sony's Playstation 2 with Linux kit (i.e. yet another (but *crippled*) Linux distro; not in the level of Lindows).
2. High performance SFF PCs(with MCE compliant video cards).
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Yes I know, but the units I have seen leave alot to be desired yet. They are basicly just boards with alot of stuff onboard in a small square box.Its not very attractive and you can "choose" certain options for the one expansion slot.Otherwise they are a standard PC in all respects, just a funky box.
What I am talking about would be a similar kind of thing, but as we are starting from scratch and if we actively target this area from both a hardware AND software/os point of view, we could have a far more attractive (as in the case) unit with much better integration and ease of use.The bonus of which is that it is also a computer.
This is what whatshisname was talking about in the politics: They define thier product as a MMCE unit(a cut down PC for multimedia device replacement) We approach it from the Family entertainment unit that also happens to be a solid multimedia computer. Its very hard to compete with wintel stuff, so we change our perspective and target it from an electronics device point of view. If the case design and marketing is right we could really make some sales like this.
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If you're still reading this...then here's my gem... :roll:
Whilst I do not condone software piracy, :-o I remember that it was a major part of my amiga experience during the 80s and 90s. I used to swap disks with friends at school, the point was to see and play the newest games and demos. There was what seemed an endless supply of new games all the time...I dunno what anyone can make of that, but that's what made amiga (and commodore 64 for that matter) fun.
getting to more honourable pursuits... The exciting part of watching demos was seeing how cleverly the chips had been programmed and what impressive results were achieved.
:banana: I think this level of coding expertise can still be expressed through modern amigas because even though you cannot anticipate what hardware a person will have on their system, there are standards and a handful of chip manufacturers that actually limits us to a common RANGE of chips to program just like was done on the custom chips of old...
:argue: This brings me to another point about amiga that can draw us through to success - We have the opportunity to have a platform that can utilise the hardware on graphic and audio cards etc to much greater detail than PCs and Macs do...can't we?
VR is another area the amiga could excell at. It's still not an 'everage joe' product yet... ;-)
:angel: I hope that Amiga always stands for fast, small, reliable, acurate codes. The Amiga will never be exactly the same as what it was (is) but we can bring with us the best parts and work on the bits that are lacking...cant we?
I apologise that my thoughts are not fully thought through, but I'm at work and only have a few minutes to post...
Cheers, Stu. :pint:
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Didn't miss it at all. AROS is not a company
Neither is Linux. :)
Linux is more organized than many companies. Really, I like Linux. It's XWindows, Gnome, KDE, and the lack of standards that drive me nuts. Open source developers specialize in making parts, but it takes a company with strong central management to build proper systems for customers. The more I learn about Linux, the more dumb it seems to me to make a completely new OS. Why not just make a new shell/desktop for Linux? Have all the drivers you want!
Windows is so ubiquitous that it is very easy to hack
Everything is "out of the box". Raw Linux security is a joke. Enterprise versions of Linux feature lots of security systems similar to Windows, but they'll cost you plenty.
Run any program in your own account, and you can kiss all your files goodbye. Your system will be plenty safe, though. :lol:
Note that Netscape use to have a dominate position
Netscape sucked. It crashed all the time and tried to use CSS when it was completely incapable of handling it, so it often drew blank pages even with fully compliant CSS.
...as I am figuring out. I've ceased all NS4 support for my website. It makes me wonder how the 'Net every lived with that damn browser.
We have to get back to basics as to what the Amiga actually was in the beginning.
A toy. PCs just beeped and printed text. The Amiga let you make your own graphics, music... and languages like AMOS let you write your own software. It'd be nice if there were a great set of GFX and GUI libraries and a dumbed-down IDE so people could write their own Java software, and not have to learn the ills of pre-compiled stuff. I seriously doubt there's a future in anything but interpreted languages. I've felt that way ever since I got my first copy of AMOS. An interpreted language with REAL programming structure would be nice.
Comparing Linux to AROS is like comparing Microsoft to AmigaOS: not realistic
Linux and AROS also have different goals.
Living in the past won't make Amigas great again. Something fresh, visionary and innovative is needed, and the need is to look to the future for answers, not the past.
PC's are thousands of times more powerful than they have ever been, and what's the pinicle of technology these days? Reading webpages! Text-based e-mail! Watching tiny movies with crappy sound online! Today was the future ten years ago. I think I might puke.
People look towards the future too much, which is why they keep making the same damn mistakes so much. Take a look at Linux and Windows... and FIX IT!
One things I've always wanted to do is turn on a computer at work and log into my home computer, complete with graphics. Current solutions revolve around taking screenshots or using good old text terminals. This is the 21st century, surly we can do better than that?!
Power users care about speed, but not everyone else does if the speed of the processor is irrelevant to the thing they want to do.
Horray! I don't care if my AmigaOne has an 800Mhz processor and the standard for the PC is a 3Ghz. I *DO* care if the AmigaOne will cost twice as much as a PC with a 3Ghz processor. Speed is irrelevent. Value is.
You have missed my obvious point. WE DON'T NEED TO!!! We need to combine the various features into a single unit that are seamless in a way they aren't on PCs.
Where do you get the drivers? Modern driver architecture rivals troublesome hardware design.
Note that, mainstream Linux/GNU/KDE/Grome distros(e.g. Red Hat 9, SUSE 9, Mandrake 9.1, Lindows 4.5 and ‘etc’) is pretty bloated.
Huge desktops will do that. I hate Gnome and KDE. They pile on the complexity without actually resolving the problem: standardizing the interface and making the sytsem easier to navigate. Who cares about gradient buttons and Konqueror when Windows gives you the Control Panel?
Another thing...a trashy web-box with a boingball on it is a TERRIBLE idea...we had those here already 5+ years ago, minus the logo, and they totally bombed.
You can't read Internet pages on a TV! I don't know why people rave about set-top boxes when we already have desk-top boxes and lap-top boxes.
Make a laptop without a hard drive and battery backed-up RAM, and shrink it to the size of a novel. That'd be cool. :-)
We need a central server based machine where it can surf the internet, print and do work, be a gateway, file server, print server for the household.Many many people have more than one computer in the house nowdays.
Linux already makes an awesome server. It's the client side that needs lots of attention.
Computers with quick startup and instant off, efficient, small, portable... Leave AmigaServe to run on a Linux box, and make AmigaDE for clients with no bulky, unreliable, power-hungry, "drop it once and you're toast" hard drives.
Surround system: around $400 for a decent one
DVD about $150
Stereo $400
VCR $150
on top of that you have a PC
$900 is about the cheapest you get here and that has no graphics card worth speaking of so add $400 to that
Adds up to say a round figure of $2500.
DVDs, Stereos, and VCRs are purpose-built machines that do one thing well and consistently. Of course they are cheaper. A PC will always cost a lot because it has to do a little of everything. A PDA typically costs $300 or more, and look how tiny it is and how little hardware is inside besides a CPU and a touchscreen. They're designed to be flexible.
I can tell you this, I would never own a computer valued at $200. If I want a cheap PC I'll buy a used one. There's certainly LOTS of obsolete, used computers to choose from. :-D
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getting to more honourable pursuits... The exciting part of watching demos was seeing how cleverly the chips had been programmed and what impressive results were achieved.
Demo coders don't always make good programmers, or good program designers. It's a long standing myth that a platform that attracts a lot of demo coders has therefore a great resource of serious programmers. This is certainly often not the case.
This brings me to another point about amiga that can draw us through to success - We have the opportunity to have a platform that can utilise the hardware on graphic and audio cards etc to much greater detail than PCs and Macs do...can't we?
How? What magic pixie dust is going to do that?
Graphics and audio hardware does what it is desinged to do. How well a system can use it depends on the quality of the drivers, and that in turn depends on proper support from the hardware manufacturer. Now, how will Amigas make better use of these cards than anyone else, when they can't even get the manufacturers to take any notice?
People don't hack hardware directly any more. It would be lunacy to even try.
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A Review So Far!
For those who are lost a quick, and not complete, review of what has been said so far.
The question seems to be can the Amiga survive in as just a niche product? There has been discussion about where that niche might be
Most suggest a Set Top Box, stylish well costructed and small enough to be carted round to your friends for a quick plug into their TV. It will also act as a 'Media Centre' allowing DVD,MP3,internet accesss,TV, etc. Essentially a media convergence box, with a solid S/W front end that loads fast and allows more access behind the GUI when wanted.
Others say this has been tried before, and TV resolutions are too low to even view a web page properly. Hardware is only a secondary concern away why not spend more effort establishing some killer apps that will make more people want to use our O/S before/or instead of buying new Hardware.
Price (unfortunetaly) is the key to most purchasing decisions made by "Average Joe". Unless enough geeks/fanatics/early-adopters can be found to buy and produce stuff for this new machine it will never reach mass-market appeal. And entering into the mass-market is the only way I see of getting prices to a point our Joe will buy at. Horrible circlar arguement...
Is there a way out? Or should we all just jump over board now...
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A review continued!
...not yet, there's more.
What's wrong with being a niche market (apart from it being fairly expensive), some say the glory days of old will never come back, and if we keep trying to reclaim those heights and keep comparing ourselves to Microsoft we will never get anywhere! You have to start small and build up that user base again, get support behind you and money will follow.
The problem is that will the number of people who fondly remember Amigas still want to buy one be enough to keep the system moving till the "average Joe" consumer who (for the sake of arguement) has never heard of Amiga before will want to buy one.
Amiga users never where simply buying into hardware or software but the perfect synagy of both. The great games would not be possible without the hardware, and in turn efficient software meant less powerfull CPUs can be used. A third tier, the Amiga Community, grew up during the hard times of '95 onwards. All three making the Amiga strong enough to last untill now (lets not give up before we see the fruits of these new projects)
The problem is the community has been fractured by bad PR, non-action and some might say action in completely the wrong direction. AROS is the perfect example of a community trying it's best to keep Amiga alive, but it is small, and working towards something that others definately don't want, AO/S on x86! (Reasons for and against talked about elsewhere. Manytimes!)
Now with MorphO/S on one side and AmigaO/S4 on the other the community has become even more split. Getting the community spirt back is very important to keep Amiga alive. A unified developers web site was suggested to keep the S/W side going all working together with elected team managers keeping individual projects on track. (Although IMHO the idea of Amiga credits might not work so well after burnt fingers with other pre-pay and membership schemes in the past.) Still I think it's a good idea, and would offer my services in design and documentation, (programming not quite upto scratch, unless anyone wants some Fortran90 work doing!)
In conclusion I think there is still a chance for Amiga if the community can all work together. The civil and detailled discussions here show it is possible. Keep it up Amiga.org, our community needs us!
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aros imho has the potential to be everything that linux is and more.
imagine something for a second: imaging aros is complete and released (it is slowly and surely getting there)
right off there are stong simularities to linux- 1. predominantly x86 but with other ports.
2. limeted hardware driverbase but with active hack support. this is actually something linux is helping with since many hardware developers have already reased info on their products.
3. significant amount of software that only has to be recompilled- linux with unix stuff, aros with amiga stuff. this could be just "basic" release stuff but quite a bit of amiga software is quite advanvced even today.
now look at how they are different:
1. aros will (eventually) be complete. i.e. os with gui and accesories. not just a kernal. most of the fragmentation that has occured in linux is because linux isn't an os. it isnt a complete computeing solution so to speak. aros will be.
2. linux had to fight its roots as a "geek" os or "hackers"os for a long long time it wasnt unit about '98 that it was considered a serious os at all. aros wont have to fight any of that but will have to overcome views mostly of amigans that it isnt complete or sereious.
3.linux was a groundbreaking os that had to go through a lot (of hacking) just to get drivers. aros wont have to go through all that. want to know how to write a driver for a nvidia nforce based card? nvidia has posted info. etcetera for numerous other cards etc.
4. linux is freaking big. froma vga based 386 with sound blaster and some weird network cart. to a top of the line athlon64 system there are drivers for everything. aros doesnt have to be anywhere near as extensive.
i have talked up aros for a long long time and it seems that hard core amigians seem to be the most against it. always talking about os4.0 and stuff. i for one have no faith whatsoever in the companies that have owned the amigaip. i have faith in us. we have kept amiga alive. we have made it better. we are providing its future.
um... amen :-D
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It seems the point is to get people to want one, I wanted those demos and games... I remember when some coders managed to get sprites in the border of a commodore64 screen. That was unheard of, but towards the end of the '64s reign there were coders out there that were clever enough to squeeze out some amazing capabilites from their chosen hardware like extra colours, hi-res with no border and border sprites. Many of those coders moved to Amiga (I'm no historian, I just assume that many people took the path from C64 to Amiga - others didn't) and produced some outstanding audio visual effects on those machines as well. (Most demos I ran crashed my machine because it didn't have the same memory config, or chipset or other setting just right - so why does it matter if that happens now) but the ones that did were amazing. My point is we have that ingenious spirit as part of Amiga legacy. :pint:
@bhogget - you might be right - I'm talking about pixie dust, but to start with, for one small aspect of this discussion - if driver coders can produce software that really pushes the hardware to it's limits, ie get them to run faster, or a few more colours, or more polygons per second, or an extra voice because they really liked and studied the hardware and were encouraged to out-do their coleagues and gained status for their work, then there's the amiga advantage right there.
You ask how to get chip makers to notice...How is up to Amiga the company (or KCOW or whoever it is these days) to gain support, but even lunatic :insane: individuals who might go and ask a company for datasheets of their chips so they can learn to program them themselves can do that if they want to ...blah blah blah...
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I think the days of hitting the hardware are over for all but consoles. As soon as you have to deal with graphic cards and sound cards you can't do it any more because of the diversity. The Amiga won't have the common hardware that its always had. Bearing in mind the time for the Amiga chipsets to be advanced this can only be a good thing. We can take the best things from the PC world and leave the rest behind. The Demo coders wont have as much to play with, and one might argue that it lowers the fresh-hold for new demo coders.
Back on topic.
I can't understand all the nay-sayers. At this point any direction is better than none!!! Ainc had no direction and everything has stagnated as a result. You're all scared and traumatised, but you have to realise there is so much opportunity right now. We'll probably get one crack at this and the follow on effects will be felt by all. We have one chance to make an impact, and a new motherboard alone is not going to do it. We need to bring Amiga to the masses somehow, even if it is as a dumbed down machine. At the very least an Amiga needs a consumer presence, more so than merely a motherboard that only caters to currently small usergroup. The market from the existing userbase is just too small and none of the companies in control of Amiga's future would be in it, if they thought they were just gonna sell a few motherboards and OSs. The Amiga must be reborn. Even moderate success would be better than nothing.
Let me give you another example as to how an Amiga could be marketed. I would get my parents an Amiga multimedia convergence box tomorrow if it was easy to use. Computers scare them. They can't even write me an e-mail. Imagine pressing an e-mail button on your keyboard remote and being able to write an e-mail immediately on your TV. Practically everyone can turn on a TV. Yeah, there are keyboard shortcuts on PCs but you're missing the point. PCs scare people and are not cool(except for geeks).
MS is dead against putting Windows on XBox because of the backlash they'd get. Sony will steer away from letting their machine be a computer, as that's too geeky. They might do a little multimedia and CD burning though, but in their competition with MS for the niche games market they'll always be looking at the lower end. The Amiga can fit above these and below a PC. The Amiga should be a mixture of the best aspects of both the PC platform and the consoles. That's what I felt it was originally, and that regard an Amiga would be heading back towards its roots and its core competency.
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i have talked up aros for a long long time and it seems that hard core amigians seem to be the most against it. always talking about os4.0 and stuff. i for one have no faith whatsoever in the companies that have owned the amigaip. i have faith in us. we have kept amiga alive. we have made it better. we are providing its future.
I agree. Now for my own little addtion to this whole mess. I have not owned an Amiga for at least 15 years. But I have fond memories of how much fun it was to use, responsive, easy, fast. I went with a commercial alt. OS, it was BeOS. I loved it, felt like my old Miggy and was fun. Then I was dumped on as a user. Poof, gone! No support, no updates, nada. When they went down they did nothing for the community they had, they just abandoned us. After that I have no intention of trusting a large or small coperation selling an alt OS. When that alt OS runs on dedicated hardware that is WAY too expensive for what it is, you can coun't me way, way out. This does not mean that I am against OS4, but it is going to take me some time before I would even consider buying it. AROS on the otherhand can take up a position between, people curious about Amiga type OS and people ready to put up the money. I don't think that AROS will ever be completly up to date with OS 4 or beyond but can be a great stepping stone. Unless I am mistaken Aros tries to maitain compatability between MorphOS and AROS. If this is true than it is not too far fetched to think that if enough users are around for AROS that some of those software packages being devloped for MorphOS could be eaisly ported to AROS. It will be very, very hard for Amiga or Morph to get users to buy the hardware just to try the OS. Now if people can try a "work alike" but it doesn't have all the "bells and wistles" then it isn't as big of a step for people to make to get the "full" experence. This is just my 2 cents. Go AROS, because without I will not sink my money into either of the others. I dont' understand the community in general being anti AROS, (that might be a bit harsh of a word) and it isn't going anywhere, ever, can't be sold.
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The other thing to mention is that building such a set top box, succeed or fail, is not a bad step for the Amiga community as we simply will have a different footprint for our favourite hardware. Its all good. Not even all the current Amiga community cares to upgrade to the fastest or most versatile thing available. An entry level set top box harms no-one and may just get some newbies back on board.
There is no reason why we can't take more than one tack in reinvigorating the Amiga platform.
I wanted to comment on the PSX2 Linux upgrade. I considered purchasing it, because I thought it would be cool to play around with programming on it. Although realistically speaking you can do that on any platform. It made me think back to the excitement I used to have in my early attempts at programming and how easy it used to be. Although I was programming well before this, I did like the concept of the c64 Epyx programming toolkit? Apart from limiting you to 16k, you couda written c64 Winter Games with it.
The thing that I would like for the Amiga platform is something like AMOS, or a games/graphics toolkit that is easy to use and understand so that hobbiests regardless of their level of competency can have a go at programming. Admittedly, it is a throwback to the microcomputer era but if you listen to a lot of the posts on the newsgroups you find that hobbiests are clamouring to help build the platform but lack the necessary skills to immediately program something. A dumbed down basic like programming platform that can manipulate 3d objects and landscapes to create a game would be magnificent. If it allows the creation of apps all the better. We have the opportunity to create a standard mechanism for issue on all Amigas like the basic that once came on all computers. Except this would be a super basic, maybe even compiled.
As for AROS, its a pity you can't use the Amiga name to slap on a box with x86 hardware. Hmmm. Unless Gary lets you. Then this would take away our reliance on more expensive PPC hardware and we could then be competitive with PCs as a platform. I know, it sounds schizo. I'm just brainstorming guys!!! :-). Hmmm the more I think about it, the hardware is keeping us back really, but without hardware we can't be taken seriously as a platform. We can't do it on software alone because linux eats us alive as a viable alternative platform for PCs. I think Amiga went PPC because everyone was too snobby to go the x86 route which woulda made more economic sense but woulda led to an outcry from the community. We have to live with the choices I guess and make it work.
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Hello
Can anybody hear me??? I'm starting to wonder...
Rather than trying to invent something new, why don't we capitalise on what we do well already.
1. Easy to use.
2. Fast to start and stop (more time doing and less time waiting).
3. Silent (could be completely silent if we tried harder).
4. Cool (in terms of "thermal"), PPC CPU's run cooler anyway but besides that we do not need to push the MHz barriers to get work done.
Come on guys and girls.... Lets stop complaining about what we don't/cant have and start thinking harder about what we have/do well already.
Is there really anything else out there that starts quickly, runs quietly and is easy to use???
Regards
Darren
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Yep, a silent Amiga is very cool. Who's turned on their PC at night and thought they'd wake the neighbours! :pissed: :nervous:
:pint: There are lots of little things that can be put together to in the amiga form that will make an amiga system stand out from the crowd, yes, yes, a silent case can be put onto any PC, there will always be similarities between species of computers.
:juggler: It appears to me that the first full amiga systems are going to be DIY jobs anyway.
Cheers, Stu.
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> 1. Easy to use.
Very comparative statement. I don't find the Amiga 'easy to use' because I'm used to Windows. People purchasing a new machine won't find the Amiga any easier to use than the PC, or Mac for that matter. Especially since they would have to pay 3x the price and assemble it themselves.
> 2. Fast to start and stop (more time doing and
> less time waiting).
Irelevant to most people. Most people, like myself, leave their machines on 24/7 so their is no waiting. A few extra seconds booting isn't going to really matter to the average person, especially when I've seen Amigas that take longer to boot (because of all the extra crap loaded) than an average Windows XP box.
> Silent (could be completely silent if we tried > harder).
Only relevant in the set top arena, and since you have to roll your own Amiga anyway, if silent is important to you, choose silent components (such as the power supply and heat sync).
> 4. Cool (in terms of "thermal"), PPC CPU's run
> cooler anyway but besides that we do not need
> to push the MHz barriers to get work done.
Also irrelevant to the average person who wants to buy a new machine. The average person isn't going to be able to look past the Mhz myth to buy a new 1 Ghz Amiga at $500 or $800 USD for the motherboard when they can buy a complete 3.00 Ghz PC with Windows for under $1000.
Wayne
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Wayne said: Most people, like myself, leave their machines on 24/7 so their is no waiting. A few extra seconds booting isn't going to really matter to the average person, ...
I'd say most people turn their PC off at night, who's right? who's wrong? it doesn't matter, a faster booting PC is better for those who wait for it to boot and irrelevent to those who leave it on, so therefore it's a good inclusion to the amiga spec because it can only be a benefit. ;-)
Cheers Stu.
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THIS is getting to be a hard thread to address!
I notice (also) just how far from their roots, and having a 'Joyful' computer experience, some have degressed!
Hammer said: "Security by obscurity is flawed."
but ignored the fact that OTHER OSs' are rarely
run so open (to exploits) as Windows is!
Is Mac OS X really inherently more secure than Windows? (http://www.macdailynews.com/comments.php?id=P1660_0_1_0_C)
Paul Thurrott writes for WinInformant.com, "After a summer of repeated virus and worm attacks, security experts and bored editors are turning once again to an interesting question: How many times does Microsoft software have to be attacked before we stop using it?
Do you agree with Thurrot's simplistic concept that Mac OS X security is achieved solely though obscurity? Or do you think The Washington Posts Rob Pegoraro is closer to the mark when he writes, "Windows XP, by default, provides unrestricted, 'administrator' access to a computer. This sounds like a good thing but is not, because any program, worms and viruses included, also has unrestricted access. Yet administrator mode is the only realistic choice: XP Home's 'limited account,' the only other option, doesn't even let you adjust a PC's clock."
Pegoraro writes, "Mac OS X and Linux get this right: Users get broad rights, but critical system tasks require entering a password. If, for instance, a virus wants to install a "backdoor" for further intrusions, you'll have to authorize it. This fail-safe isn't immune to user gullibility and still allows the total loss or theft of your data, but it beats Windows' anything-goes approach."
Shattering the Mac OS X 'security through obscurity' myth (http://www.macdailynews.com/comments.php?id=P1686_0_1_0_C)
Five new Windows Bagle virus variants break nasty new ground; Macintosh unaffected
Friday, March 19, 2004 - 09:46 AM EST (http://www.macdailynews.com/comments.php?id=P2360_0_1_0)
I can plainly forsee the time when it will become impossible to use a Win-PC, unless it remains unconnected from the Net!
THAT leaves the Mac for ordinary folk. Linux has remained in its role as the "IKEA" Solution of the home desktops; much user assembly required!
As to AROS . . . well, what become of BeOS?
Several (such as BigBenAussie) have made excellent points!
Win-PCs, X-Boxes and PSNs may have price & Performance, but they don't attract the casual coder (BTW, how many X-Boxes and PSNs have keyboards?)--- but we do need some modern equivalents of AMOS, etc!
@bhoggett;
People are not queueing up to buy microcomputers any more.
WHAT? Like they did for Win95? The Win-PC is a microcomputer!
I think that YOU have wholly forgotten what it could/can be like to run a do-everything machine that doesn't FIGHT YOU all the way!
Like BigBenAussie, I don't understand the attitude of the nay-sayers!
Don't YOU want something BETTER than the PC-Status Quo?
Wayne said:
I don't find the Amiga 'easy to use' because I'm used to Windows. People purchasing a new machine won't find the Amiga any easier to use than the PC, or Mac for that matter.
Thats a weird thing to say .. have YOU been away from the Amiga just TOO long?
. . .assemble it themselves.
Why would they HAVE to do this?
I have the feeling that the Amiga can be just about anything! Remember the CDTV and the REC Wonder TV A6000? The CDTV was too expensive, too limited, and too far ahead of its time. The REC Wonder TV A6000 (http://www.amiga-hardware.com/a6000.html) was closer to the mark!
A modern equivalent would have to be smaller; have contemporary options such as firewire and wireless-connectivity; and use today's level of CPU technology. . . . But, can we ignor the Net-PC concept any longer? Look at connectivity today! Ever I am using a basic ADSL service!
Still, the initial user-base has to be "grown". The applications have to be produced.
Rome didn't get built in a day, . . but Rome replaced Greece as the centre of the civilized world!
"If you build it, they will come!"
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:pint: I read somewhere that some motherboard makers were approached by IBM because IBM wants to expand its PowerPC line and so that may herald cheaper motherboards and chips and then...cheaper PCs and also possibly settop boxes capable of running AOS. If those of us that are working on amiga projects can keep going and get some results, if AOS is sent to market again then in a couple to a few years we'll have a lot more people playing. and maybe some of us can even earn a crust from our beloved amiga.
I'd just laugh my guts up if i went into K-Mart and saw amigas on the shelf again! - next to the DVD players. :roflmao:
Cheers, Stu.
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I don't find the Amiga 'easy to use' because I'm used to Windows. People purchasing a new machine won't find the Amiga any easier to use than the PC, or Mac for that matter.
Easy-to-use is a vague definition. What makes a computer easy is how well the documentation is written, and how closely the behavior of the computer mimicks what people EXPECT to happen. As a studying interface designer, I'm very touchy about usability myths.
Besides, everything is just a clone of the most popular product on the market. Nobody is going to make a new system from scratch and claim Windows wasn't an inspiration. Set-top boxes are not easy to use because they don't have familiar methods. This is what Linux people don't understand. Who cares if a typical Linux system has a taskbar, icons, and a happy face on the "My Documents" folder? Try installing new video drivers. Windows is standardized so all you have to do is run Setup.exe and reboot. Tell me that's not easy!
Is Mac OS X really inherently more secure than Windows?
Nobody gets security right, except maybe for Java. Given that your personal files and passwords are a million times more important that your system files, it should be possible to quarantine any application on your system. Today, the most *ANY* OS will do is divide all security into three groups: OS, User, and Group. There needs to be more gray area. If your UNIX e-mail program runs a script, it has the authority to delete EVERY file in your account, even though it can't touch the OS. Unix, be default, isn't much better than Windows is you run lousy software, and lousy software is the trademark of a popular computer. If Windows was the underdog and UNIX ruled the world, you'd see UNIX crashing left and right, and Windows would be rock stable with few security problems. At least Windows NT offers more levels of security, such as "Backup Operators", and "PowerUsers". Each user should have his/her own security system that they can apply to each of their own folders and ban certain scripting programs from working with, or even seeing, certain folders.
but Rome replaced Greece as the centre of the civilized world!
Mind explaining why Greece is still here, and Rome is not? ;-)
"If you build it, they will come!"
Just don't forget to build a hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue instead of one house on Baltic.
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"If Windows was the underdog and UNIX ruled the world"
You're joking right? What do you think business runs on? Most banks use AIX, Solaris and Linux (probably in that order), most telecoms networks run on HPUX, most large engineering companies (I'm thinking Airbus and the like) use Solaris or HPUX. Windows has only ever lived on the desktop and as desktop support back ends (for example Exchange). I really shouldn't need to point out that the majority of the internet infrastructure runs on various UNIX and Linux variants, too.
UNIX security is sufficient for most purposes. If you wish to run a browser as a different user, you can; then as you describe, your files are kept safe. Likewise, assigning different users to different groups with access to their own unique parts of the system is ... as easy as assigning users to groups.
Also, regarding running 'setup.exe' and rebooting. Try Ubuntu - it even finds the correct drivers for you.
Each to their own. Fischer Price Windows 7 for people who need their hand holding, Mac OSX for those who know what they're doing and just want to get on with it, Linux (and UNIX) for people who work in IT, Amiga for people with a passion! We don't want to dumb everything down to the same level!
Just my 2p.
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Starting arguments with skeletons is cool, it's time to start digging up old threads.
Ubuntu wasn't even released back when the previous post was made.
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*taunts skeletons*
You may have a point but Solaris, AIX and HPUX have been around since the early 80's, and SysV (and SysIII?) a few years before that. So my point still stands :)
And yes, I didn't realise the post I replied to was from 2004 ... oops.
Steve
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Starting arguments with skeletons is cool, it's time to start digging up old threads.
Ubuntu wasn't even released back when the previous post was made.
No, but debian was, and I can install the nVidia drivers in debian with three commands (which you can string together), 'apt-get install module-assistant' 'm-a a-i nvidia' 'nvidia-xconfig'
And you don't even have to reboot, just restart X.
Ubuntu was on it's way to it's first release when the replied to post was there.
But meh, it is funny to bring up old threads...
slaapliedje
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Hi,
@ Wayne, & the Amiga Community,
I just love it when someone agrees with me,
Thanks Wayne
Lets take a look at when the Amiga first came out, it had stereo sound, no other computer had that, it had unheard of graphics with 4096 colors, unheard of at that time, it had a multi tasking operating system, pc where still inserting floppies to use one program at a time and MACS where lucky to just boot up.
So there we have it, sound, graphics and multi tasking.
Now lets go back and look at the C64, it had sound, but not stereo, it had graphics, but not many colors, and it was a single program running computer.
Now when I first bought my C64, there was very little programs, but it had a BASIC programming language included and a manual on how to use it, and then on top of that it had a supporting magazine called Ahoy!, which came out with type in programs and tips and tricks. Then as time went on it had supporting companies writing software.
Now lets look at the Amiga 1000, it had stereo sound, 4096 color graphics, multi tasking and also included was BASIC computing language and a supporting magazine called Amiga World, which once again gave programs you could type in, and tips and tricks.
Now lets also say that in time Software Co. rolled into the equation. So what did I like about the C64 and Amiga, one typing in programs, and trying to find my typo errors, I really enjoyed trying to type in code to make music (failed terribly) and had loads of fun trying to get the graphics to do stuff.
So what is our niche, a home based computer that people could play with and use.
Graphics today on PC's is getting to the point where there is no catching up, sound is so realistic when hooked up to good speakers, is it a computer or a stereo.
But
What is lacking is a friendly usable computer that you could play with, without the fear of crashing it and taking all day to reload it. Face it the magic of the Amiga was actually that, being able to use it, experiment, and if you crashed it, it only took minutes to reload.
My opinion, it may not match other opinions.
Like
My opinion of Karlos is that he is a complete fun abuser, other people may have a different opinion which favors Karlos ( which I think sucks) but opinion none the less.
Please don't read the above line, I think Karlos is a kool person, he plays games like Crysis 2, on a PC, and I always thought he was a bean counting MAC user. Never will troll Karlos again.
Oh yeah, Commodore also had a software writing department to make software for their new computers to help on kickoffs.
smerf
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Did this topic just get a revival from a revival from a revival?
In any case, being my usual cranky retrophile self, I say that what will drive the new Amiga is hardware that is directly compatible with the old Amiga (in other words, a 68k-compatible CPU and at least as much compatibility with the old chipsets as they had with each other.)
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Sounds like my iPad 2.
Hello
Can anybody hear me??? I'm starting to wonder...
Rather than trying to invent something new, why don't we capitalise on what we do well already.
1. Easy to use.
2. Fast to start and stop (more time doing and less time waiting).
3. Silent (could be completely silent if we tried harder).
4. Cool (in terms of "thermal"), PPC CPU's run cooler anyway but besides that we do not need to push the MHz barriers to get work done.
Come on guys and girls.... Lets stop complaining about what we don't/cant have and start thinking harder about what we have/do well already.
Is there really anything else out there that starts quickly, runs quietly and is easy to use???
Regards
Darren
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Hello
Can anybody hear me??? I'm starting to wonder...
Rather than trying to invent something new, why don't we capitalise on what we do well already.
1. Easy to use.
2. Fast to start and stop (more time doing and less time waiting).
3. Silent (could be completely silent if we tried harder).
4. Cool (in terms of "thermal"), PPC CPU's run cooler anyway but besides that we do not need to push the MHz barriers to get work done.
Is there really anything else out there that starts quickly, runs quietly and is easy to use???
Regards
Darren
Hi ,well done Darren and well said (Come on guys and girls.... Lets stop complaining about what we don't/cant have and start thinking harder about what we have/do well already.}
Give me the stylish 1200/600/500 any day so near to being perfect ,the children adore it ,Games and music that's what the youngsters of today want ,they don't need another towering tin can standing on the floor ,they like different and the amiga 1200 has a fashion statement of its own ,so little to do to make this Gem rock again,just my thoughts ,best wishes Brian.
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Starting arguments with skeletons is cool, it's time to start digging up old threads.
Ubuntu wasn't even released back when the previous post was made.
Digging up old threads to try to figure out if we've managed to put off Cammy.
After all, having females around is a relief.
There is something deeply burdensome constantly associating with male computing troglodytes.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Gnomes_plan.png)
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Gnomes_plan.png)
Love that episode. So left o field. But can gnomes build the new Amiga for us.?
@Iggy. I love the way you manage to make me and probably lots of others cringe in one post. Well disassociated from us troglodytes. True colours exposed.
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Originally the hardware drove sales in the form of graphics (paint, ray tracing), games, and the NewTek Toaster. Now I see the software in the form of the OS driving sales. Let's vote: how many people enjoy using Sudo, Administrative privileges, or other crap to run their computer? How many folks do backups because on those systems you can't just copy your boot partition to another location with a copy command? How easy is it on a Win/Mac/Linux system to run a simple script by clicking an icon (iconX)? Change your startup commands? Change an early startup menu to select boot drives and such? Configure almost all aspects of your user interface (i.e., not Macs)?
OS4.1 is fast, modern, backwardly compatible, and beginning to support more than just USB, PCI and SATA drives; it runs well on even 15+ year-old CPU's and looks beautiful. Just think about it.
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Well it seems "Content" in the form of software to run on OS4.1/2 will be the driving factor, as per Trevor's talk at AmiWest 2014.
[I'd like to go to an AmiEXPO again -- those were fun and enlightening too!]
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Originally the hardware drove sales in the form of graphics (paint, ray tracing), games, and the NewTek Toaster. Now I see the software in the form of the OS driving sales. Let's vote: how many people enjoy using Sudo, Administrative privileges, or other crap to run their computer? How many folks do backups because on those systems you can't just copy your boot partition to another location with a copy command? How easy is it on a Win/Mac/Linux system to run a simple script by clicking an icon (iconX)? Change your startup commands? Change an early startup menu to select boot drives and such? Configure almost all aspects of your user interface (i.e., not Macs)?
OS4.1 is fast, modern, backwardly compatible, and beginning to support more than just USB, PCI and SATA drives; it runs well on even 15+ year-old CPU's and looks beautiful. Just think about it.
Ha, all of those are pretty easy to do on a Linux machine. I have to say that's a lot of the reason why I like it, it's rather Amiga like. Though I have to say it'd be nice to get something for the Amiga that would make it use 'cp' and 'ls' instead of 'copy' and 'list'. without having to do aliases by hand.
But I see what you mean. I wish I could get a PPC for my A4000D, so I could run OS4, but they're very cost prohibitive right now. Pretty much any PPC hardware is at this point. Of course I'm also weird and am probably more interested in playing in the Operating System than I am with any software for it.
slaapliedje
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Originally the hardware drove sales in the form of graphics (paint, ray tracing), games, and the NewTek Toaster. Now I see the software in the form of the OS driving sales. Let's vote: how many people enjoy using Sudo, Administrative privileges, or other crap to run their computer? How many folks do backups because on those systems you can't just copy your boot partition to another location with a copy command? How easy is it on a Win/Mac/Linux system to run a simple script by clicking an icon (iconX)? Change your startup commands? Change an early startup menu to select boot drives and such? Configure almost all aspects of your user interface (i.e., not Macs)?
OS4.1 is fast, modern, backwardly compatible, and beginning to support more than just USB, PCI and SATA drives; it runs well on even 15+ year-old CPU's and looks beautiful. Just think about it.
How about an OS and hardware combination that automatically keeps a recovery volume up-to-date with all the patches and updates applied to your operational OS. And one that automatically recognises that you've plugged in a 4tb high speed USB drive and asks you if you'd like the OS to keep backup copies of your files on it;transparently and non-intrusively in the background. That would be a cool OS yeah?
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@slaapliedje
Define, "cost prohibitive right now."
@gertsy
The first part of your question could be handles with a script set to run (whenever) that first runs and then copies the System Update function (complete with Roll Back) and one's OS partition on a regular interval; I'm not familiar with what happens in the case of (USB signals in) the second, but a USB trigger could, again, run a script to do just that.
Most of my Amiga DOS scripts are linked to an icon (IconX) and I run them on demand, such as switch network printers, or do a partition backup. I know DOS scripts sound lame in this day and age of Python and stuff, but I find them quick and simple solutions myself.
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Nice thread necromancy :)
Going back to the original post this is what I think of it:
The Amiga has since Commodore demise, been driven by its user community, not by any company. That is the main reason it is still not completely dead as a platform, despite all the harm these companies made (and still make).
The sad part is that there is no new Amiga. Lets face it, the computing world has moved on, and Amiga is just a tiny part of its history. Yes, there is still hardware and software development, but nothing earth shattering, or worthwhile for the average Joe.
The Amiga will die when we die. There is no new generation, just old farts, and every now and then some few curious newcomers, but the gross of the community is built of old users that refuse to let it go.
Its sad, but it is what it is.
Another old fart :)
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Unlike some users here, I see the necessity for various security features such as sudp, privilege separation and permissions. Yeah, its a PITA, but I would rather run BSD, Linux and IRIX, which are at least *somewhat* ready for a security-conscious person, than AmigaOS. In addition, on the aforementioned OSes I can easily setup shell and Perl scripts to run automatically using the system function crontab but if I need to run them on demand all I need to do is make sure their location is in my shell's PATH.
Similarly I have access to significantly more advanced filesystem,. I have never seen an Amiga filesystem support soft updates, for example, and those are safer and easier for me to use, as well as faster and less likely to lose data. I don't know how Amiga filesystems store logs, but it looks like SFS is a 32-bit only equivalent of ext3, PFS and AFFS ( FFS is the BSD name for UFS,so AFFS is standard for Amiga ) are equivalent to the original UFS and ext2, that is no logging or soft updates so the filesystem has to undergo periodic checks on boot and while in use for file fragmentation and possible crash operations. I like soft updates because they ensure disks are atomically written, don't require an fsck before mounting and guarantee filesystem integrity.
Also, just me here, but I like IRIX Magic Desktop just as much as the AmigaOS look. In some ways the GUI is even more flexible, such as the native GL-acceleration allows for transparency and desktop effects without relying on DRI, which is basically a nasty hack over X11. The desktop of IRIX is one of the reasons I continue using IRIX, as it has the right amount of usability and customisable look, using the .Xdefaults file.
Using an NG Amiga would require a damn convincing reason to spend 6 times what I would pay for a top of the line SGI, for comparable performance, that's why I await 4.2+ and SMP/64-bit support/memory protection
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I like the people who say this OS is a lot like Amiga. Somebody make a poll that asks:
I like Linux, but I wish it was more like Amiga.
I like OS4, but wish it would run on x86 or 68k.
Amiga should concentrate on playing catch up. Lets have a lot of software ports. It might get equal with Linux.
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I like the people who say this OS is a lot like Amiga. Somebody make a poll that asks:
I like Linux, but I wish it was more like Amiga.
I like OS4, but wish it would run on x86 or 68k.
Amiga should concentrate on playing catch up. Lets have a lot of software ports. It might get equal with Linux.
Then just run Linux.
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I have a full-fledged business and marketing strategy for the introduction of a new Amiga-inspired platform into the market. I have had it for a while actually.
Some of you may say "Well why don't you share it with us?" or along those lines.
The answer: Unlike an idea, execution is the critical piece for the success of any venture. Ideas are a dime a dozen; Why you could have the world's greatest idea, and it can still fail because of poor execution. On the other hand, some not so great ideas have been successful due to how they were executed. Most of us have seen examples of both.
I am working toward executing this plan in the coming years, and when I do you will be amongst the first to know about it. As you might be able to appreciate, there are only a few windows of opportunity to launch new platforms; Talking about it now leaves it open for someone else to make a mess of it and drastically reduce the chances of a second attempt.
This is not subterfuge and it is not 1st of April. It is possible to create a commercially successful computing platform that would co-exist with Windows and Mac OS X.
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Is it a Linux based games console?
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I have a full-fledged business and marketing strategy for the introduction of a new Amiga-inspired platform into the market. I have had it for a while actually.
Some of you may say "Well why don't you share it with us?" or along those lines.
The answer: Unlike an idea, execution is the critical piece for the success of any venture. Ideas are a dime a dozen; Why you could have the world's greatest idea, and it can still fail because of poor execution. On the other hand, some not so great ideas have been successful due to how they were executed. Most of us have seen examples of both.
I am working toward executing this plan in the coming years, and when I do you will be amongst the first to know about it. As you might be able to appreciate, there are only a few windows of opportunity to launch new platforms; Talking about it now leaves it open for someone else to make a mess of it and drastically reduce the chances of a second attempt.
This is not subterfuge and it is not 1st of April. It is possible to create a commercially successful computing platform that would co-exist with Windows and Mac OS X.
I hope it does rain through your "window of opportunity, " then your idea will be all wet.
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Is it a Linux based games console?
MAME? UAE?
Even the Android (a Linux based OS) runs plenty of games.
Game Platforms don't have Python, PS support, PDF support, DVD burning capabilities, Word Processing, and a dozens of features that OS4 has at its core. So OS4 and the Amiga are not just a "gaming platform."
Be bold! Make a decision: play games or use a computer with a different OS than OSX, Linux, Windows, and all the others.
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Just my thoughts ...
Operating systems are slowly becoming less and less relevant for the general
masses. The new "OS" platform is the web. Web based applications are largely platform agnostic, and so they should be! In my humble opinion a new amiga and OS , should be powerful enough to perform every day computing tasks and have a web browser that "just works"(tm) out of the box with great compatibility with up to date web technologies.
We need a system at the very least, which can do the above at an affordable price.
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And this will drive the new Amiga, or the Chromebook?
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I'm not convinced that OS'es are becomming less and less relevant as simplistic cell phone OS'es are becomming popular as more people buy a smartphone.
Windows 8 took this approach in order to create an OS that looked and felt like a tablet OS on a desktop computer (and thus would attract people who wanted to use one OS for everything) and it failed so badly that they had to revise that policy. People simply hated the idea. They do want a traditional OS on a computer, just as they want a cell phone OS on a cell phone.
Traditional OS'es are not becomming irrelevant, they are simply adapting to new technology.
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I think people forget that mobile OSes are minimal by design to aid ease of use on simplistic devices. Traditional OSes are indeed far from dead: The internet is still run by BSD ( All of the core network infra uses BSD ) most sites are served by BSD, Linux and derivatives. As long as servers are a thing, there isn't any end in site.
I have a concept I have been working on and I have begun coding some of the easier parts of the system. It isn't anymore 'Amiga' than say Haiku OS, but it will certainly take a lot of inspiration:
It is going to have a lot of UNIX and Plan 9 influence on the bare bones and backend look, but it will take some pages from AmigaOS, namely there will be a message passing daemon which handles IPC where socket files involves too much overhead (Moreorless, a D-BUS alternative) it will have one official, supported GUI and will support graphical and text based programs equally, and have a variety of configuration options to fit a user's preference and workflow.
Nobody here will likely use it as I am planning for something beyond the Amiga community, I don't plan to hold to any group or community's plans or interest, and it will likely run on some future proofed, progress oriented platform.
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I think people forget that mobile OSes are minimal by design to aid ease of use on simplistic devices. Traditional OSes are indeed far from dead: The internet is still run by BSD ( All of the core network infra uses BSD ) most sites are served by BSD, Linux and derivatives. As long as servers are a thing, there isn't any end in site.
Operating systems will exist, the point being made is that which operating system most people use is irrelevant.
In the beginning you chose the operating system based on what software you needed to run. Now most people only need to choose an operating system that can run a decent web browser.
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Depends on what is meant by "drive".
As has been the case for over a decade it's the fans/users that push the platforms forward. Theyre the ones who have developed the software, spent their money, etc.
If by drive however you meant a rebirth of sorts, then there simply isn't one. The computer markets are different than they once were. Apart from enthusiasts it's a very, very tough sell to market a multi thousand dollar system whose hardware is on par with a $50 phone, and whose OS would be lucky to be on par with Win98 in terms of functionality.
Im as much, or more of an enthusiast than most people here, but lets be realistic. It's a niche system nowadays and there's very little it can offer to those outside of niche circles.
I don't understand the apparent need for some sort of "rebirth" anyway. I've enjoyed the amiga thus far without it. It's the fact that it's different and not a generic host for things like python, pearl, pdf, office, etc. that make it interesting. If I want generic I can do it on the aforementioned cheapo phone, or pc. They'll do it better at less than %5 of the price anyway.
So long as there's a few hundred or so people using a system things will keep ticking along. Look at 8bit scene for example,.... a system doesn't need to clone popular trends to keep people interested.
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Look at the market place. Desktop sales are dropping, laptop sales are dropping, tablet sales are taking most of the market. Phones are the latest platform. Right now this is the future. It will probably change again in the future.
My thoughts on this are as follows:
You can NOT out do the big companies in their world. Create a NEW world.
Hardware is not the future. But I would like to see a motherboard that uses the latest video cards, cpus, ect. but with a new os.
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I personally thought that the Amiga's second life should have been as a desktop environment for Linux and/or BSD much like Gnome/KDE/etc. But hey, that's just me.
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I don't believe "drive" relates to a rebirth, I believe it means, "What will encourage continued use and a propagation of the species of computers that run the Amiga OS." Tablets are making inroads among those who Cerf the web, but don't do things like word processing, image editing, video production, office based activities, and heavy CPU intensive tasks.
Unix and its derivatives have their place in the world, but are mostly over kill in a typical home setting; Amiga's OS takes it place for just flat out being simpler to understand and use.
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Unix and its derivatives have their place in the world, but are mostly over kill in a typical home setting; Amiga's OS takes it place for just flat out being simpler to understand and use.
I think that most average Joes will agree that OSX and iOS are simpler to use than any Amiga-like operating system. "Simpler to understand" in a deeper sense than to get things done doesn't factor in. People rather think in practical terms like "how do I get it on the network", "how do I browse facebook", "where do I find applications", "where do I get support" or "how do I write a rich text document" than things like "how does this work from top to bottom".
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I think that most average Joes will agree that OSX and iOS are simpler to use than any Amiga-like operating system. "Simpler to understand" in a deeper sense than to get things done doesn't factor in. People rather think in practical terms like "how do I get it on the network", "how do I browse facebook", "where do I find applications", "where do I get support" or "how do I write a rich text document" than things like "how does this work from top to bottom".
You can do all that on a Chromebook; you don't need a "real" computer.
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Do we really want or need people who just want to surf the web?
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You can do all that on a Chromebook; you don't need a "real" computer.
I'm sorry to have assumed that you would remember the context in which I wrote this. My point is that if there is a niche where Amiga could be established with the general populace, it has nothing to do with simplicity. The Chromebook is indeed simpler and more attractive in the senses that have any relevance to the average consumer.
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Do we really want or need people who just want to surf the web?
You really should consider this in terms of what you want out of the OS and not what you want out of the other strangers that happen to use it. Do you want networking to be easy to set up? Do you want a modern browser? Would you be willing to sacrifice what is unique about the OS for that?
Personally I'm leaning towards "I don't care", since the real Amiga OS is still running as it should on my Amiga 1200.
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I'm sorry to have assumed that you would remember the context in which I wrote this. My point is that if there is a niche where Amiga could be established with the general populace, it has nothing to do with simplicity. The Chromebook is indeed simpler and more attractive in the senses that have any relevance to the average consumer.
Did you really say that? There is no definition of context; you stated that the Mac OS is simpler for "average Joes" to use (so is a pencil and paper) than an Amiga; and in some sort of "a deeper sense than to get things done doesn't factor in." The meaning behind this eludes me.
You mention nothing of a "niche where Amiga could be established with the general populace" in either post (what is this niche, since it also remains undefined in your post?); then you state that the Chromebook is "more attractive in the senses that have any relevance to the average consumer." Again you describe multiple "senses" without saying what they are, and there is no comment on what you feel is of "relevance to the average consumer."
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Did you really say that? There is no definition of context; you stated that the Mac OS is simpler for "average Joes" to use (so is a pencil and paper) than an Amiga; and in some sort of "a deeper sense than to get things done doesn't factor in." The meaning behind this eludes me.
This is what you wrote, WRT Unix
Amiga's OS takes it place for just flat out being simpler to understand and use.
Your argument was about simplicity. Not that you mention what about Amiga OS is so simple. Getting it? Installing it? Using it? Doing anything useful with it? Seems like Chromebook has a clear advantage in each of these areas.
You mention nothing of a "niche where Amiga could be established with the general populace" in either post (what is this niche, since it also remains undefined in your post?);
No, that was defined by you, saying that Amiga could take the place of Unix in typical home settings.
then you state that the Chromebook is "more attractive in the senses that have any relevance to the average consumer." Again you describe multiple "senses" without saying what they are, and there is no comment on what you feel is of "relevance to the average consumer."
I described those in the post before; People rather think in practical terms like "how do I get it on the network", "how do I browse facebook", "where do I find applications", "where do I get support" or "how do I write a rich text document" than things like "how does this work from top to bottom".
Somehow in all of this you have completely failed to address my arguments, and I am not cynical enough to think that someone wouldn't have beeen able to put the context together the way I have above, so what's your point?
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Sorry to interrupt.
Is it the (some) Os4/NG users pushing for a comeback, if not who then?
All software development will go to the top 2 OS. Linux users code like crazy to keep up. They don't get a free ride.
A hypothetical niche is Amiga games console.
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Do we really want or need people who just want to surf the web?
Chrome books are more than "just surving the web". It's the relocation of applications into the web. The chrome book is just a stupid simple end user device that is just capable enough to do everything required to run a dynamic web application. Or rather, that such applications live in the web is completely irrelevant for the average customer. It rather allows to off-load computing power from mobile devices into servers (and it allows providers to micro-charge for applications rather them selling them as software packages). It is a completely different business strategy, and a pretty smart one (for the vendors, not necessarily for the users).
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it allows providers to micro-charge for applications rather them selling them as software packages
Thats why +1
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Linde
Arguments of an elusory nature with serpentine references to prior posts are a poor way to debate an issue; I state that the Amiga OS4 is simpler to use and can only conclude that you feel the Mac OSX is simpler.
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IMHO, half the problem with the scene is the fact people are more inclined to believe that some miraculous new piece of Amiga gear or software will pop out of the woodwork and suddenly Microsoft and Apple will be on the verge of bankruptcy.
Should be more thankful we have such a healthy and varied selection of offerings for a platform that technically hasn't been made since the 90's in its original incarnation. A lot of the other niche platforms aren't so lucky, and the Amiga was never an 80% market share platform even at the pinnacle of its success, which was in the mid 90's.
The fact that we're even into the 4 digit numbers sales wise on the NG systems is still a bit astounding to me in this modern age of people viewing computers as not so much a hobby, but as appliances or a utility device.
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Linde
Arguments of an elusory nature with serpentine references to prior posts are a poor way to debate an issue;
Non-arguments like the above are an even poorer way to debate an issue. [removed insult]
I state that the Amiga OS4 is simpler to use and can only conclude that you feel the Mac OSX is simpler.
I also state why I think so. You never explain how Amiga OS is simpler, giving me the upper hand when it comes to actually having an argument, whether you agree or not. I also don't pose my arguments as fact, or say anything that is inherently undebatable, giving you a perfect opportunity to actually respond to them.
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Non-arguments like the above are an even poorer way to debate an issue. [Insult Removed By Linde]
I also state why I think so. You never explain how Amiga OS is simpler, giving me the upper hand when it comes to actually having an argument, whether you agree or not. I also don't pose my arguments as fact, or say anything that is inherently undebatable, giving you a perfect opportunity to actually respond to them.
I do not respond to personal attacks.
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So this one started with some generalisations.
Lock thread soon pls, it didn't go anywhere.
Or better, move all posts starting with #91 (2014) to different thread.
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I do not respond to personal attacks.
This Post has been deleted.
Reason: Personal Attacks, Insults or rude behavior.
Infraction Issued.
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I state that the Amiga OS4 is simpler to use and can only conclude that you feel the Mac OSX is simpler.
Can you state objectively why it's simpler?
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To be perfectly honest, I don't [Personal insult removed] You are most likely perfectly capable of following our discussion, but instead of doing so you say that my arguments are elusory and that my references are "serpentine". Even after I've clarified my serpentine references you refuse to directly address what I'm saying, and instead dismiss it based on a conclusion that only seems to take my disagreement with you into account.
Again, I do not respond to personal attacks
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...
Should be more thankful we have such a healthy and varied selection of offerings for a platform that technically hasn't been made since the 90's in its original incarnation. A lot of the other niche platforms aren't so lucky, and the Amiga was never an 80% market share platform even at the pinnacle of its success, which was in the mid 90's.
The fact that we're even into the 4 digit numbers sales wise on the NG systems is still a bit astounding to me in this modern age of people viewing computers as not so much a hobby, but as appliances or a utility device.
That's looser talk. Defeatist attitudes like "be happy with what you got" are anti-progress. Shouldn't we just all be happy with the amount of rocks that can be shaped into a blade?
Healthy? 4-digit sales, as you put it, over a decade or so of Amiga NG systems is not something anyone would consider healthy. Just because there are hobby platforms in a worse position does not make ours healthy. And lets be honest, we are talking low 4-digits, though even if it were in the 9000 range it would still not be enough.
You are correct in one thing; Amiga never held a high percentage of the home computer market, and even less so in business. But they did have an install base of over 1M, and that made for a healthy ecosystem. That's what we should be aiming for, a healthy ecosystem. You know, an ecosystem where an update to a beta of a library isn't seen as major news.
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So this one started with some generalisations.
Lock thread soon pls, it didn't go anywhere.
Or better, move all posts starting with #91 (2014) to different thread.
There is only one post that starts with #91 :p
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It doesn't matter how much we have you will always want more. We have quality software, instead of a huge amount of buggy apps and games.
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I'm really liking Aeros, the ability to run Linux software means I can do real work on it, something I haven't been able to say about an Amigalike system in a couple decades.
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It doesn't matter how much we have you will always want more. We have quality software, instead of a huge amount of buggy apps and games.
Quality software? Really?
All the quality Amiga software I remember has not yet been ported to Amiga NG PPC.