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Author Topic: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......  (Read 8700 times)

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Offline Martyn

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #164 from previous page: February 27, 2004, 04:53:47 PM »
Quote

There are various other good reasons, too, and a search of all the Amiga forums will bring them up. Its a very boring, tired and irrelevant argument.


I've read all those threads, it's just the arguments don't hold water.  But I'm here to bash Hyperion, I still think they're doing a great job and wish them all the best.  At least with 4.0 the code will have become pretty portable (so I can have hope for the future ;-) ).
If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot.
Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend. -- Bruce Lee
 

Offline T_Bone

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2004, 05:55:23 PM »
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Martyn wrote:

I've read all those threads, it's just the arguments don't hold water.  But I'm here to bash Hyperion,


 :lol:  :lol:  :roflmao:

I'm pretty sure that was a typo!
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Offline IonDeluxe

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2004, 04:03:45 AM »
@-D-
your ability to twist words is remarkable, yet it still does not change the facts.

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The Court will now add the "upgrade" amendment to the current ruling and in so doing render subsequent agreements to our November 2000 agreement void. This is not something we are doing against OS4.0, it is an action we will take against Amiga Inc. We can then license Hyperion for OS4.2 (and beyond) and thus 4.0 can be then released. Hyperion will have less to pay to us than they would have had to pay to Amiga Inc. We can even sell to Eyetech a non-Articia Pegasos board at a much lower price (and they will not have to pay Amiga Inc. anything). Perhaps, everyone will get along better. Frankly, they will have little choice, but we do not intend to handle them badly, but fairly and in the best interest of our potential customers. Amiga Inc. cannot stop us because of the ruling. It will all be pretty one-sided from this point on.


My emphasis.

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As the license is validated under US law Hyperion will not have any recourse unless Amiga Inc. gets our written consent, which will not happen. However, we will sublicense (as we can under the Agreement) Hyperion for less than they would have paid Amiga and the customer/community will benefit from lower prices. Of course, Amiga Inc. could appeal but it is not likely given their general disregard for the Court.

my emphasis

As i said, force.

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I\\\'d post something satirical, but I\\\'m afraid it might get used as genuine evidence in the Thendic Amiga trial!
 

Offline gary_c

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2004, 06:13:40 AM »
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As i said, force


Hmm. "Force" Hyperion to sign a license with Genesi rather than Amiga, Inc. but under better terms. "Force" Eyetech to consider a much better board deal than they have now. "Force" AmigaOS customers to pay less for functionally the same thing than they have available with the AI arrangement. Doesn't really sound all that bad to me.

The bitter taste for some, of course, is that it's Bill Buck at the controls, but are we discussing personalities, or technology and business?

-- gary_c
 

Offline IonDeluxe

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2004, 07:15:40 AM »
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Hmm. "Force" Hyperion to sign a license with Genesi rather than Amiga, Inc. but under better terms. "Force" Eyetech to consider a much better board deal than they have now. "Force" AmigaOS customers to pay less for functionally the same thing than they have available with the AI arrangement. Doesn't really sound all that bad to me.


Better terms? thats purely speculative.
Better board deal...the same
Pay less fo the same funtionality still pure speculation.

That Bill Buck intends to thereby remove choice and competition from the market for both consumers and the companies involved is fact.
That does not sound good to me.Nor is he "working with the community" as he so often likes to tout.From the word go he could have lisenced OS4 for the pegasos gotten it certified and given the community a real choice AND the ability to name the pegasos an "amiga" but he cried poor.
Maybe this is true for a company that also can't pay it's employees, but would have been cheaper than lawyers.

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The bitter taste for some, of course, is that it's Bill Buck at the controls, but are we discussing personalities, or technology and business?


The two are not seperable, it is the personality that controls the business, and hence the business is no more reliable than the person running it, hence I will never do business with Genesi until BBRV no longer has any stake in it.The same holds true for a significant portion of the community, and if Bill Buck's stated plan comes to fruition, this is just another way the community will be hurt.
I heard a rumour that Gary Hare was taking over as CEO of Genesi, so perhaps there is hope.

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I\\\'d post something satirical, but I\\\'m afraid it might get used as genuine evidence in the Thendic Amiga trial!
 

Offline CodeSmith

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2004, 07:34:03 AM »
Quote

gary_c wrote:
Quote
As i said, force


Hmm. "Force" Hyperion to sign a license with Genesi rather than Amiga, Inc. but under better terms. "Force" Eyetech to consider a much better board deal than they have now. "Force" AmigaOS customers to pay less for functionally the same thing than they have available with the AI arrangement. Doesn't really sound all that bad to me.


The thing is that, according to Bill Buck, [color=0000FF]Frankly, they will have little choice[/color] but to agree to these "better terms".  It is by now well established that Bill Buck operates under the precept that "Business is War", so what kind of a deal would such a type of aggressive businessman offer to someone who's only choice is "take it or leave it"?

In theory, if Hyperion felt the deal was unfair they could go straight to Amiga Inc to try for a better one, but unfortunately Bill Buck has stated that [color=0000FF]Hyperion will not have any recourse unless Amiga Inc. gets our written consent, which will not happen.[/color]

Bill Buck has decided that it's His Way Or The Highway.  We've all seen how well that worked for x86.  What worm do you want today?
 

Offline Damion

Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2004, 08:18:51 AM »
Hi IonMane,

Thanks for playing, but I really have no problem with
"the facts" - they make perfect logical sense from my
standpoint, and from the standpoint of a business wishing
to protect it's interest and property. As far as what some
may be reading into these facts, only time will tell.

This much we do know (from the facts):

That Eyetech or Hyperion will end up feeling "forced"
is your speculation, and not fact. Where does it say
that Eyetech will also be prevented from marketing
it's current line of machines?? Also, that Genesi will
ever label anything they sell "an amiga", is, at the
present, your speculation - and not fact.

Setting up legit agreements and contracts after the fantasy
ones have been decreed null by a Judge isn't "force"...it's
called standard, legal business procedure.

"If" events play through as we can rationally predict, all
parties involved should wind up ahead...which sounds fair
enough to me.

Anyhow, IMO this issue is being taken WAY too serious...as
opposed to "the contract says x, the Judge decreed y,
therefore we're headed toward z...and we'll try to make
it good (read: profitable) for everybody."





 

Offline IonDeluxe

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2004, 09:07:36 AM »
Continuing to twist my words into something I have not said will not further this discussion at all.
You have decided to trust Bill Buck at his word, fine thats your choice.
I don't nor will I ever trust his word as he has proven himself to be vindictive, concerned only with his own personal vendetta and personal agenda that has nothing to do with the well being of the community, despite how he tries to cover it up.
You cannot go past the fact that if he wanted to have a united community he could have had his machine amiga certified and had OS4 on it the same as eyetech has done.

There would then have been no split.
there would have been true choice instead of two diametricly opposed competitors that both happen to run some old Amiga software
The developers of both sides could have developed for both machines instead of splitting thier resources between the two.
He could have increase his own marketbase as well as that of Hyperion.
This frivolous and costly court case could have been completely avoided.
And we would probably be talking about a promising future and been writing about something constructive for a change.

As it stands I will do everything in my power to make sure people can consider both sides and make up thier own mind. I wont allow him to further poison this community without making an effort to stop it, or at least limit the damage.

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I\\\'d post something satirical, but I\\\'m afraid it might get used as genuine evidence in the Thendic Amiga trial!
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2004, 09:39:51 AM »
@IonDeluxe

Your logic is flawed beyond believe ....

1. Are you really so naive that you believe that Genesi
could have gotten a licence at the same terms as Eyetech,
when all evidence speaks against it ?

2. Of what use would such a licence be, when OS4 still isn't
ready 1.5 years after the initial MorphOS1.0 ?

3. Why is someone refusing to sign a dubious(at best) licence splitting the community, and not those that put it
up in the 1st place (and for no sane reason) ?

4. The split never was about the HW, it was about the SW(OS).
One side had an OS ready (to some extent) while the other side
only dreamed about stuff that would never come (like the
orginal intent-based OS4), or was falling for madup release
dates.

5. The split didn't happen when BB came into the picture, it
happened when certain individuals did all in their might to
stop MOS from becomming the official OS4. Big suprise that
some of these later took on their own OS4-project .....
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline Damion

Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2004, 10:06:10 AM »
@Ion

Quote

Continuing to twist my words into something I have not said will not further this discussion at all.
You have decided to trust Bill Buck at his word, fine thats your choice.



OK, perhaps I've been a bit of a smartass...and for that
I do apologise...however, I haven't intentionally tried to
twist your words. Regardless, it's obvious we view the
situation from drastically different perspectives.
Please be aware, though, that for me this scenario has
nothing to do with trusting (or not trusting) anybody,
but rather my opinion from the available information.

If you look at it from the angle of "contracts, judges,
business procedure"...there's nothing really fantasically
ridiculous about it, it's just "how things go"....or at
least that's how I see it.
 

Offline gary_c

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2004, 11:38:23 AM »
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Better terms? thats purely speculative.
Better board deal...the same
Pay less fo the same funtionality still pure speculation.


Of course; all any of us can do is speculate based on what we've read or heard. Works the same for all sides.

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That Bill Buck intends to thereby remove choice and competition from the market for both consumers and the companies involved is fact.


People who want AmigaOS on PPC have exactly one hardware choice now, so that won't change. Hyperion has exactly one motherboard for AOS right now, so that won't change. How do you see choice being reduced? The only changes are that Amiga, Inc. is out of the equation, but it more or less deserves to be, in the opinion of many people. And that the Teron board gets replaced by a Pegasos. Are Amiga fans really all that excited about MAI Teron boards that much already? People criticized Genesi for "splitting the market." Now, with this idea that the market is consolidated, they're going to get criticized for that, too? Strange (and illogical) that some people feel they're right complaining about it both ways.

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Nor is he "working with the community" as he so often likes to tout.


Well, if you realized the cost of all of those subsidized and free boards, all the traveling to shows, etc. that now the company is even getting flamed for (for some reason), you might reconsider that. Apart from the fact that there are winners and losers in the business world and Amiga, Inc. seems destined to join the losers, I don't think Genesi has really failed to work with elements of the community, as a rule. Please be more specific, if you want to pursue this point.

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From the word go he could have lisenced OS4 for the pegasos gotten it certified


From what I understand, this was not a realistic possibility given the conditions Amiga, Inc. wanted to place on Genesi, involving Genesi's internal information and so on.

Quote
The same holds true for a significant portion of the community


Well, I don't know how well you can speak for others. In any case, the number of people who want to boycott Genesi for personality reasons is no doubt very small compared to the potential market including both "amiga" and areas beyond such as Linux and embedded systems and so on. So I don't think anyone's going to be losing sleep over these guys. I know I wouldn't, nor would anyone else trying to run a business.

Quote
this is just another way the community will be hurt.


Sorry, but I think you're projecting your emotionalism. A market is rarely hurt by a better product at lower cost. Buyouts and consolidations happen. Companies grabbing market share happens. The benefit or harm to the consumer depends on the product details and support details. I know for a fact that Genesi has been very supportive of developers, insofar as conditions allow. But the negative attitude of people such as yourself is a distraction. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying Genesi doesn't need to sharpen up its management and Bill Buck couldn't use a little more diplomacy and forethought in his dealings with people at times. But consider the flames he's had to face ever since deciding to dare market a product on hallowed Amiga, Inc. territory. Most people, certainly less hard ones, would have given up long ago. Now think about "fewer choices": an Amiga market led by severely indebted and essentially dead Amiga, Inc.(and don't blame Genesi's lawyers for that -- the facts of the timing don't support that claim), dependent for hardware on outsiders who have nothing to do with the market traditionally and are considered by many to have basic technical flaws in their products etc etc. That'd be a sad state.

Quote
I heard a rumour that Gary Hare was taking over as CEO of Genesi, so perhaps there is hope.


Well, rumor has it he would have been good for Amiga; unfortunately he had a look around and realized the futility there. I imagine he'd be a valuable addition at Genesi as well.

-- gary_c
 

Offline IonDeluxe

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #175 on: February 28, 2004, 01:45:43 PM »
Well I wrote A nice long post adressing everything mentioned, but as fate would have it, my account got timed out.I can't be bothered to type it all out again so I will be brief.
Mr Buck has set a very poor standard of behavior, and I don't care that this is "only business" it affects real people in a very real way, and as such I will hold them, and thier CEO's just as accountable for thier behaviour as any individual, maybe even moreso.
My point of view is not based on speculation as you may like to believe, it is based on the fact of what Mr Buck has said publicly on various forums, message boards, community portals and perasonal correspondance.

This proposed action directly affects the 1000+ people that have already purchased an AmigaOne, they will be denied AOS4 if Bill Bucks plan comes to pass.
Will he offer them a replacement system that does run OS4? I severely doubt it, nor could he supply them with those machines in the current situation I believe.

Yeah, this is a business decision, just goes to show he does not care a whit about what we want, what the companies involved want, he is interested only in what appears to be a personal vendetta and lining his own pockets.

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I\\\'d post something satirical, but I\\\'m afraid it might get used as genuine evidence in the Thendic Amiga trial!
 

Offline gary_c

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #176 on: February 28, 2004, 03:51:50 PM »
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but as fate would have it, my account got timed out

That drives me crazy too, sometimes. Sometimes I do a select-all and copy just in case the session times out or the browser crashes, if I'm working on something long.

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This proposed action directly affects the 1000+ people that have already purchased an AmigaOne, they will be denied AOS4 if Bill Bucks plan comes to pass.


I must have missed where Bill Buck said that. Could you give us the URL please.

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Yeah, this is a business decision, just goes to show he does not care a whit about what we want


About what who wants? Demand is running ahead of supply of Pegasos boards, so that shows some of "us" are getting products they want. If his description of future events is correct, people will still be getting AOS4 on PPC. I still don't know who you're speaking for exactly. Obviously if someone wants a Bill McEwen and Fleecy certified product or a Teron board, they'll be out of luck. Otherwise, I don't see a problem.

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he is interested only in what appears to be a personal vendetta and lining his own pockets.


I wouldn't be surprised if there's something personal involved, given the background of Amiga, Inc.'s claims about MorphOS, etc. As for lining his pockets, I'm sure that'd get a laugh at his place, about just what year he'll start seeing a personal return on what's been spent so far. If a person with money has the goal of making even more money, there sure are a lot easier and more predictable ways of doing it than trying to bootstrap a new computer platform, wouldn't you agree?

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Offline bloodline

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #177 on: February 28, 2004, 04:26:58 PM »
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This proposed action directly affects the 1000+ people that have already purchased an AmigaOne, they will be denied AOS4 if Bill Bucks plan comes to pass.
Will he offer them a replacement system that does run OS4? I severely doubt it, nor could he supply them with those machines in the current situation I believe.
 


You have got to be kidding, right?

I have no love of Mr Buck, but he has demonstrated a clear willingness to treat his customers fairly. Amiga Inc. have not, I have been ripped off. I have had my own personal dreams crushed by the pathetic individuals called McEwan and Fleecy. They have done nothing to help anyone, not even thomeselves.

You are living in dream world. Wake up!

Offline cecilia

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #178 on: February 28, 2004, 10:14:26 PM »
ok, this is the only thing I've ever seen on mooooobunny
that is true and honest!
the no CARB diet- no Cheney, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld or Bush.
IFX CD Tutorial
 

Offline JoannaK

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Re: I`m confused! Genesi VS Amiga.Inc....the saga continues.......
« Reply #179 on: February 28, 2004, 10:23:06 PM »
IonDeluxe: Somehow I think you are way overreacting on this.. There is no proof Buck will ever be able to archive all that he's been posting on Moobunny. Ok, they win this case, but it's still a long way on what he's been planing.

Besides.. If he (they actually) does it.. Then he's shown to be much more capable on organizing things than every and all people around Amigaone+Os4 together. So it might even lead something good.