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Author Topic: Amiga Coldfire project dead?  (Read 13392 times)

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Offline Amiga_NutTopic starter

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Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« on: November 17, 2010, 12:29:48 PM »
I was looking around the net for info on a coldfire project for Amiga, and I found the following website...

http://www.cdtv.org.uk/coldfire/

However the last update on there is for 2004...it's 2010!! So what happened? Did they give up on it 6 years ago?

Coldfire V4 is an interesting CPU, at 266mhz it runs at a nice and efficient 400 MIPS.

Anyone have any news to shed light on this sad state of affairs? It's not a solution to a next generation Amiga without someone tooling up to put AGA chipset on motherboards I know but it is an interesting CPU and accelerator route, and given Coldfire CPUs cost bugger all it's a shame this went a bit quiet half a decade ago.

(I am not interested in what people think of Coldfire as a solution (or any other CPU you believe is personally better), only information regarding the project being abandoned or another group taking over this task in some small way)
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 12:45:55 PM »
He explains what happened here:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=55590

Andy
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Offline Amiga_NutTopic starter

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 01:12:28 PM »
Thanks for the link. I totally understand though, working full-time to cover your life expenses leaves very little time/energy for doing stuff like this.

If I won the lottery I would put up a £200,000 bounty to finish this.

(£200k is including combining hardware design with a Kickstart work around compatible with the v4 Coldfire CPU)
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 01:21:50 PM »
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;592428
Thanks for the link. I totally understand though, working full-time to cover your life expenses leaves very little time/energy for doing stuff like this.

If I won the lottery I would put up a £200,000 bounty to finish this.

(£200k is including combining hardware design with a Kickstart work around compatible with the v4 Coldfire CPU)
Get a scratch card if you win a tenner, I'm still gonna hold you to the above statement ;)

Also, the 68k AROS project will go a long way to solving the kickstart issue... The Amiga software issue aside...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 01:24:32 PM by bloodline »
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 01:21:58 PM »
Also I believe that trapping 68k instructions (and the differently behavioured MUL instruction) made said 266MHz Coldfire perform like a 40MHz 68040.

As for using it for AROS ... I think I'd prefer a dual-core 1.5GHz ARM Cortex A9 based system...
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 01:22:29 PM »
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;592415
Coldfire V4 is an interesting CPU, at 266mhz it runs at a nice and efficient 400 MIPS.
...running coldfire code. It won't be anywhere near that when running typical 68k code. Instruction emulation is possible of course, but it introduces huge performance penalty due to exception processing. Even then there are certain opcodes that are incompatible with the 68k, and cannot be patched on the fly. If you instead go for JIT route then why bother with coldfire in the first place, just use faster and cheaper solutions instead.

As far as I can remember Elbox went as far as to actually build a working prototype only to kill the project. I would guess the reasons were performance and compatibility issues.

Of course anyone who actually read the coldfire documentation could easily see that and predict this result.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 01:26:41 PM by Piru »
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 01:26:59 PM »
@Piru

One argument for JIT on coldfire would be that you could probably get away with something very lightweight and quick since your JIT will spend most of it's time simply copying the existing opcodes, without transformation, to the translation cache. You might even be able to create something along the lines of HP's Dynamo, which had the amusing property of being able to run code faster than the same CPU it was running on (due to runtime optimised code folding).
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Offline nicholas

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 01:37:23 PM »
Quote from: Piru;592434
...running coldfire code. It won't be anywhere near that when running typical 68k code. Instruction emulation is possible of course, but it introduces huge performance penalty due to exception processing. Even then there are certain opcodes that are incompatible with the 68k, and cannot be patched on the fly. If you instead go for JIT route then why bother with coldfire in the first place, just use faster and cheaper solutions instead.

As far as I can remember Elbox went as far as to actually build a working prototype only to kill the project. I would guess the reasons were performance and compatibility issues.

Of course anyone who actually read the coldfire documentation could easily see that and predict this result.


So how does one explain this then?

http://acp.atari.org
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Offline little

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2010, 02:00:49 PM »
Quote from: Piru;592434
...running coldfire code. It won't be anywhere near that when running typical 68k code.
If I remember correctly, if at least the exec library was compiled for coldfire (which is now possible thanks to the kickstart bounties) emulation would be faster (and if the whole kickstart is recompiled it should be even faster).

But I agree that nowadays an ARM cpu (with built in opengl es 2) would be a far better choice, even if it does not emulates the 680x0 in hardware, it is cheaper and faster. IMO a winning combination would be a board w/ARM cpu plus a FPGA that fully emulates any 68k.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2010, 02:03:32 PM »
It used to be the case that coldfire was just not compatible enough with M68K object code, not so much because of missing opcodes (which can always be trapped, even if it means a hit) but that there were cases where instructions behaved differently without generating a trap. They were the real killers, since they'd introduce behaviour that would be unexpected and also impossible to work around. As far as I know, these compatibility issues have been mitigated in more recent cores since, though I don't know the technical details as I've not been keeping up.

However, assuming you can make m68k object code run, one oft-cited objection towards coldfire is that for full M68K compatibility you are potentially looking at a big performance hit relative to "native" coldfire code due to whatever emulation work is required to achieve compatibility.

However, how bad is that worst-case performance compared to say 030, which seems to be all that's presently on offer for new accelerator cards?

If it turns out that worst trap-and-emulate required m68k code runs at speeds comparable to a fast 030, or higher, then it is almost a bit of a no-brainer. Not all m68k object code you throw at it is going to be riddled with unimplemented operations and addressing modes.

When the 060 came out for amiga, trap-and-emulate caused a lot of performance issues, but things like CyberPatcher and OxyPatcher demonstrated there are faster solutions than naive trap/emulate.
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Offline Amiga_NutTopic starter

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2010, 02:10:48 PM »
If it was combined with a Kickstart work around project it would be great and a re-compile of Workbench (Amiga Inc being contacted for a licence I guess) then there is no reason you couldn't go native with a Coldfire V4 setup...and V5 when it is produced in the future. And let's face it not much software outside games requires a 100% 68k inefficient mode anyway.

Remember I am talking about a plug-in board that doesn't cost a fortune like current PPC boards for classic Amigas on ebay.

I didn't want to get into the alternatives debate but we only have 4 CPU choices left.

ARM = total rewrite of everything from scratch.
X86 = total rewrite of everything from scratch + a million drivers for all x86 hardware combos
PPC = hugely expensive hardware so no sale to people with £50/100 machines
Coldfire = not a simple transition but maybe the simplest of the 4 in reality?

400 MIPS is a lot of performance, in the short term it's not possible to use all that performance sure. But it is CHEAP technology, and cheap = economically viable business = profits plowed back into using more features of the actual Coldfire architecture via modifications to KS/WB. Coldfire is also being actively developed unlike PPC which is the only other CPU remotely compatible with 68k systems in any way.

Maybe a future solution would be 266mhz Coldfire v4 + Minimig style FPGA for OCS/AGA chipset combined in a single desktop machine. But only after upgrade cards for 500/1000, 1500/2000, 1200 and 3000/4000 models were released. This would cater for a new bread of Amigans who never lived the time of Amiga.

All I was interested in was an alternative to £700 PPC cards on ebay that don't run classic Workbench 1.3/Lotus 2/Rocket Ranger natively anyway and sit there like expensive co-processors. Even if it runs as 'badly' as a 68060 clocked @ 66mhz who cares in the short term anyway if it costs less than a 060 card for 2000/4000/1200s?
 

Offline Amiga_NutTopic starter

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2010, 02:12:07 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;592432
Get a scratch card if you win a tenner, I'm still gonna hold you to the above statement ;)

Also, the 68k AROS project will go a long way to solving the kickstart issue... The Amiga software issue aside...


I will put up the same 20% as a bounty from my winnings, so that's £2 :p
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2010, 02:18:09 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;592437
So how does one explain this then?

http://acp.atari.org
Explain what in particular?

Reading that page gives no indication that this board actually has the 68k emulation implemented, or how fast it would be in real life. All it says that such emulation it would be 680x0 compatible, and that the emulation will be added later. Of course they're wrong here, even with the emulation there still are instructions that won't work correctly.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 02:28:33 PM by Piru »
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2010, 02:22:20 PM »
Quote from: Piru;592448
Explain what in particular?


Sorry, I was on my mobile at the time and it's too fiddly to type on it.

The Atari Coldfire team have managed to create a Coldfire based motherboard that runs 68k Atari binaries with no apparent loss of performance or compatibility.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga Coldfire project dead?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2010, 02:30:12 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;592450
Sorry, I was on my mobile at the time and it's too fiddly to type on it.

The Atari Coldfire team have managed to create a Coldfire based motherboard that runs 68k Atari binaries with no apparent loss of performance or compatibility.
Well...EmuTOS...