FYI: Grass not so green on the other side

[DaveP]

Pegasos/MorphOS - Almighty Row Breaks Out

Im not sure I posted this under the right topic.

Read it through folks and come to your own conclusions. Please don't bring the flamewar here
but just be aware that it is going on. Consider it
an FYI.

Im sure there is a rational explanation for all of this.

[DaveP]

I thought this comment from ADMV about sums
up the situation:

I did add this comment earlier but its disappeared along with the thread.

Anyway.

To cut to the chase.

Would I spend a year developing, testing, beta testing and then going through the expensive hardware costs without making sure my suppliers could supply the parts?
Errr... No

Would I spend the time hawking myself round all the news groups, news sites, and 'amiga' sphere type locations bragging and making claims about what I am about to produce only to produce zip. zero. nado. nothing.(ok, a number of beta boards, test boards, review boards..) Not only that, I make sure I muddy the waters enough that not only do I cock up my stuff, I bring enough FUD to the party that anyone else working in the same sphere is at least partially affected.

Errr no..

Would I then go down the road of allowing people to pre-order or get involved in long drawn out flame wars with prospective or possible customers over supply shortages, especially after having everyone on my team brag about the vast resources available and that there will 'be no problem'.

Errr..no

Would I behave like this if I were a CEO.

Errr .. no

I do not know the full picture regarding Articia chipset shipments, lost production, lawsuits, falling out with suppliers, making new enemies, and I suspect only those on the inside track actually know whats going on.

Nor do I care. The likely hood of me purchasing anything PPC from *Anyone* in the amiga sphere always was close to nill. But the antics just go from bad to worse.

To some degree I kind of hope you all go out of business, just so that we get some peace and quiet.

And please please please, don't buy any amiga parts on 'pre-orders' or by dubious methods. Make sure you have your consumer protection, and preferrabley make sure you can actually purchase the goods at the time of purchase and not by some mail order antics.

There should be a new methodology carried forward by 'amiga' people buying 'amiga' goods.

'TRUST NO ONE.'

AdmV

Reply to this comment

[DaveP]

@downix

downix wrote:
A business that sends boards to customers that don't pay for them goes out of business, that's the rational explination for this.

Thats the part that just isn't clear. Miky060 does not
come out of it too well, nor does Eva but the treatment they got on the message boards does not
seem to be "the done thing".

Considering Eva is known as "Eva the Troll" for his
fanatical pro-MorphOS/Pegasos stance ( like the reverse for Samface ) postings all over the place whether on topic or not - it is interesting.

[DaveP]

Everyone assumes that the grass is greener on the other
side and sometimes maybe if you just look it is not as
green as you think, its just a saying ... no need to get hung up over it
or the "side" part of the quotation :-)

I couldn't hand on heart lobby for users to invest in the
Amiga market right at the moment. For some time I have
been considering that Pegasos market was lower risk
and worth advocating users to get on board - but that
was just "grass is greener on the other side".

[DaveP]

@Gary

Thanks, DaveP. Before I read Bill Buck's post at the (then) bottom of this thread, I was ready to dismiss you as another FUD spreader

You have a right to your own opinions. As i said, please dont
bring the flaming here but most people on Amiga.org don't bother
to read ANN any more.

I take objection to the "FUD spreading" bit. A consumer
row was reported on an Amiga based product. If I had wanted
to spread FUD it would have been a News Item saying "Dont
trust GENESI!" but given that this is not my opinion nor
a credible conclusion to come to please go ahead and
ascribe motives to me in order to discredit not only my
reporting of an interesting link but also me in the future. Im
sure with enough followups like this I will become as
discredited as Mr Bouma. Not that I actually care about
what your opinion of me is. I don't claim to be anything
other than a potential user of all Amiga related products.

I won't be able to convince you of my motives so there
is no point in bothering. But pointing out that there is
probably a rational explanation should give you a minor
clue as to what I think of the debate as it was at that
stage ( irrational ).

Given that Bill saw it in context and in perspective ( and
I would guess the spirit in which it was intended ) I am
surprised that you didn't. You see on the one side we have
Genesi the company which looks like a safe bet for new users
and is stable, growing and professional ...

....but on the other side we have the community that surrounds
it which seems to have more than its fair share of nutters ( like Miky060, Eva, Cheesegrate ). Look at this
from the outside, would you recommend Genesi to a friend
if the dialogue between its usebase and the company can
degenerate to this level?? In fact pretty much like the
"The NAME(TM)" community eh?

I don't see this as being particularly damaging to Genesi
I see it as further evidence that the "Amiga community"
( vendors and users ) have no sense of perspective and
members of the community no sense of rational discourse.

 just like the guy who spawned the bad-feeling thread at ann.lu by posting "an FYI" about what was happening at the morphos-news.de forum where this all started.

Oh COME ON the guy on ANN said "look what Genesi did
to this guy" and proceeded to editorialise - whereas I just
said look, heres a row breaking out go and make up your
own mind.

You might not see the difference because I guess you are
inclined to vent if anything is posted that might lead to
the shiny image being questioned. If you read the whole thread
through ( which I encouraged ) you will see that no-one
comes out of this with credit.

(You're faux-innocent information service was pretty transparent BTW.)

Whatever Gary. I mean don't let your own bias influence
your interpretations of my motives...

 But anyway bringing the sordid thing up here did enable me to find the link to the bbrv post at morphos-news that hopefully will put an end to this sad tale and hopefully mark the beginning of nicer dialog in the future on such topics. Thanks again.

Glad you accept that it was sordid, but brushing sordid
things under the carpet does nobody ANY good.

I advise you not to get so worried about articles like this
appearing because by tackling and reporting them head on the rumour mill
when it has gone through the usual chinese whispers
will NOT be so effective because EVERYONE knows
what the real story is.

But hey, who am I to try to educate people on rumour
management?

(edit - r/jerk/nutters )

[DaveP]

Folks, the link that Bill was talking about is on Morphos-news.de
and not ANN ( which is where I went looking for it )

Bill clarifies his position

[DaveP]

@Gary

Look I even said that I dont consider myself
a reporter, or a journalist so tactics that work on
Mike Bouma do not work on me.

You do know what the title of this is paraphrased
from dont you?

"Grass is greener on the other side"

Nowhere do I say it is less green on the other side.

I think you are just trying to discredit me. Which is
your right but this:

 Of course you can disingenuously argue with me

Suggests that if I argue with you I am being disingenuous. Which is a childish stance for you to take. Ive seen better debating tactics from 14 year
olds in a playground. Sure they might stumble over
the length of the words you use but the import
is the same.

The fact that you go to the length of choosing to
misnterpret the TITLE ( because as I pointed out there is nothing in the body or my words that could allow you to ascribe motives to me like this )  shows
your desperation to discredit.

In fact your are placing your own meaning and motive on your interpretation of the title
"editorialising" it for your own purpose.

But hey, Ive long gone past expecting anything different from you  having seen how you reacted
on this and one other thread. :-D

I wonder if you would post a story on here about
a row in the Amiga* "communities" with the motives
you are trying to credit to me? I wonder if in fact
the motives you ascribe to me are actually what your
motives would be in my situation?

Nah. You are just lashing out because you are feeling
frustrated and Im a convenient target.  :-)

[DaveP]

@JoannaK

It could be a lot worse. I reckon 20 to 1 odds against
AmigaOS4 appearing at Cebit. ;-)

[DaveP]

Dear DaveP (a good example),

 Could we draw your interest to a new organization we are establishing? We would like to ask you to become a charter member. Here is what you have to do:

1. Continue to do your own thinking
2. Continue to post thoughtful comments and insight into remarks made online
3. Agree to this code of conduct (example): XXX
4. Help us keep the ship moving in a good direction

Where does one go to find out more? I don't want to appear ungrateful
for what seems to be quite a compliment but momma told me never
sign nothin' till I'd seen it with the ink dry under a magnifying glass. ;-)

Why waste all that brain power?! Even if some of the comments were misguided they were part of what created the discussion. The idea is to not allow ignorance to be bliss.

Now this I agree would be neat, but it would be difficult
to implement and you would need a searchable index on
the summaries.

[DaveP]

Look we wont agree until doomsday.

The fact that you cant see that

"Grass Not So Green on the other side"
...is relative to...
"Grass Is Greener on the other side"
...and means....
"Grass on other side is not as green as we thought"
...and not...
"Grass on other side is less green as on this side"
....sayes it all.

Ive supplied you with sufficient collateral on this. If you
want a bitch fight, find someone smaller than you bud.

[DaveP]

"Grass Not So Green on the other side"
...is relative to...
"Grass Is Greener on the other side

Sorry to be pedantic, but this is the kind of incorrect wording that I've been referring to, the reason for  misunderstanding. (And I've been an editor for close to 15 years so I know what I'm talking about.)

That's one weird pair of glasses you look out at the world through.

I don't think you do know what you are talking about. Lets see, you mounted an attack on me
and then when i respond you not only accuse me of being
disingenuous but say that any further defense that I might
make is disingenuous. After a bit more back and forth
you accuse me of distancing myself from the title of the topic
but not explain how you come to that conclusion. Then you
try to make out that *I* am prolonging it.  Marks out of ten
for trying to shift ground  - 9.



The greeness of the grass in the title should be seen as being
relative to the saying. You claim that I meant that
the grass was LESS GREEN on the MOS/PEG side than
the AOS/A1 side.

I have just pointed out to you, with teeth gritted it has to be
said that the measurement of GREEN-NESS is RELATIVE
to the SAYING ( that is is GREENER ).

Heres the logic for you:
   A is said to be greater than B ( Grass is greener on the other side )
   A>B
   Someone sayes that A is not so green as it was ( Grass not so green on the other side )
   A--
   Does not break the logic statement:
   A>B
   
What you want me to have said, for your point of view to
be valid, justified or even logically correct would be:

Grass not green on the other side
OR
Grass on other side not so green as this one
   
The measurement of greenness is, as I said before, measured
RELATIVE to the fact that it was seen as greener (A>B) NOT relative
to the other side ( B => A   
You may or may not be an editor, you could claim whatever
your like but firstly this is not an article for a national newspaper
and secondly you could be the editor of your local parish
mag and thirdly you could basically be a pretty crap editor. It has
no bearing on the subject at hand.  

If you
want a bitch fight, find someone smaller than you bud.

This is just too sad and ironic to respond to.

There is nothing ironic or sad about it.

You tried to pick a fight
with me over nothing, you have tried to continue that
against the odds, you haven't gained an inch. You are clearly
( despite your own claims ) a frustrated man and there
are easier ( and more valid ) targets out there that you could
be spending your time with.

It has now come down, according to you, to a misunderstanding. This
means that either I miscommunicated ( I don't think so ) or you
misunderstood what was being communicated ( I don't think you
do now, I think you misunderstood before and fired off a salvo
when you shouldn't and are now backpeddling ).

What do you want me to do next? Go through your posts
in this thread and show exactly how I come to that
conclusion? Or maybe you want to start reading what
you put before to try and regain some level of consistency?

Where have we come to now? I think you are a
drowning man at the far end of a flame war. I'm sure
you have an equally negative opinion of me ( in fact
your obnoxious first post puts me in no doubt ).

I no longer understand what point you are trying to
prove, and Im not sure that you do either.

Now before this degenerates further how about we do everyone
a favour and take it to email?

[DaveP]

@MikeB
Thanks.

[DaveP]

@Gary

Do you know what. I just don't care. I don't see this
as an interesting or useful thing to debate. My eyes
have started to glaze over with total boredom
every time I think about how exactly I can explain
it in a way that you will understand or even really
listen to.

Maybe you get some kick out of bitch fights like these, I don't and Im sure the onlookers are just as bored as me, if not more.

No doubt when I post something in the future that
you take exception to there you'll be popping in with
some barely concealed abusive flamebait but my resolution will be ... hey the guy is just trying to bait
you like he did last time. If you ignore him, he'll go back to guarding the bridge.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a cigar to smoke and
some interesting TECHNICAL subjects to go post about.

[DaveP]

@Gary
No, its more that you clearly don't recognise
yourself in what you say and do when the image
offends you. I don't know how you can't go back
through what you and I have written and come
to the conclusions you have.

@Mips
Grow up.