Quick Gary Hare IRC report, no more 3rd party AmigaOS after OS4.0.

[SirLancelotDuLac]

Wayne wrote:
I read the follow up, and while I thank him for taking the time, it didn't really fill in any blanks where I'm concerned.  Just sounded like more of the same we've heard for the last 5 years.  

I'm afraid that after 5 years of the SOS, only a full and complete disclosure (without doublespeak) would ever suffice to instill any sort of trust or belief that the future was anything but dead-ended.  Anything short of that is just the SOS we've all heard before.

Wayne,

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you to some extent, even a full disclosure is the "SOS we've all heard before."

The only way it is not the SOS is for them to just shut-up and produce something.  I would much rather they spend their resources producing something than talking about producing something.  I would rather them produce a product that I can not stand than talk about producing something I might want.  I would also rather them not talk about 5 business partnerships that succeed than talk about 1 business deal that eventually fails. (Sharp Zauras PDA anyone?)

As much as I might enjoy knowing all the ins and outs about what is going on, I would much rather know nothing and have Amiga Inc. succeed at its business endeavors than know everything and watch it fail.

At this point, I am in the wait and see mode and am happy to stay there until they finally succeed or fail.  As a fellow business man, I certainly wish them the best and hope it is the former, and not the later.

[Waccoon]

Bloodline:  With modern PDAs and Phones being introduced with 3D chips, the whole idea of AmigaDE's cheesy game packs seem less and less relevant to a modern market.

Right.  Older PDAs were built like ancient PCs, with one CPU that did everything.  Newer PDAs are using dedicated graphics chips and require more modern OS design to take full advantage of the hardware.  What seems insane today won't be five years from now.

Chances are, many PDA OSes will start coming with all the tools needed for great graphics, like the new embedded version of OpenGL 2.0.  What use is AA then?

MskoDestny:  Are you saying that OS4 is obsolete compared to other operating systems or that natively compiled programs running on natively compiled operating systems are obsolete and we should all just move to Java or .NET?

Both.  Seeing how much of OS3 had to be rewritten and replaced, I would classify the OS as obsolete.  OS4 is less obsolete, but there's still a lot that needs to be replaced to make it fully modern, such as the security system.  You just can't add security and expect huge numbers of things not to break, even if you use a fairly simple and widespread security system like the traditional UNIX model (I could fill a book with all the stupid file ownership problems I've run into as a web developer).  I was very disappointed to see Hyperion didn't think about security at all with OS4, and publicly touted "security through obscurity".  That might work just well for them with only a couple thousand machines out there, but not setting down ground rules now makes things a lot harder in the long run.  Lots of things will have to be replaced in OS4 to make it OS5.

Besides, anything can be dragged into the modern era.  It's a question of how much work it will take, compared to starting with a truly modern system and modifying it to run OS3 applications.  Apple might have been able to make OS9 into a modern system, but they saw it easier to start with UNIX and work their way forward from there.  Whether OS9 was bad is irrelevant.  It's how much work it takes to make it modern.

I can't say Java is a lifesaver, though, as Sun has had more than its share of screw-ups, including the fact they replaced the entire UI toolkit at one point.  .NET is hardly any better, though it at least it doesn't restrict you to just one language.

MskoDestny:  As for device independent stuff like Java and .NET, natively compiled programs will never go away.

Not 100%, and definately not at the OS level, but a lot more than most people think.  You also have to consider the application of most languages.  Interpreted code is useless for a tool to search a database, but what about a chat program?  The complexity of the two programs isn't all that much different, but the usage is.  The server and workstation world may demand native code, but home computers do not.  Performance isn't everything to an end user, as is quite obvious given how many PC users allow anti-virus software to suck up 50%+ of their CPU time, rather than learn how viruses get on computers in the first place and just use common sense.

Native code is also a liability when it comes to security.  I feel more comfortable downloading a Java application than I do having to "install" an application, especially since many programs won't install unless you have admin priviledges.  System security is irrelevant if you have to login as root to install anything.

Notice that almost all web programming languages are interpreted.  People have been bashing interpreted and just-in-time compiled programs for years, but they just keep getting more popular, especially as they get closer to the performance of native code.

It's foolish to think that you only have to use one language (like C++) to write an entire application, and that interpreted languages are supposed to work universally on all platforms.  The future of programming is to use a Java-like platform to write the application framework (largely because development is quicker and it's easier to debug), and maybe dip into low-level languages for performance.  Use the right tool for the job.  Why spend six months writing it in C when you can get it done in a month with a higher-level language?  Development time and debugging is rarely considered among people who bash interpreted languages.

Also, applications are portable because developers want them to be, not becauase the language just works that way.  If a Mac person sees a Java application, he or she may be upset that the Java program doesn't follow Mac interface rules.  Sometimes, you have to fine-tune a program for a platform even if the language promises (and delivers) true architecture independence.  It boils down to what you need to do, rather than how the language forces you (or doesn't force you) to do it.

But then, performance-critical tools don't have to be compiled with the application, either.  There's nothing to stop you from using a natively compiled library with an interpreted framework.  Tao's "tools" work like that.  Tao's VP isn't about the universal compatibility offered by Java or another full-blown virtual machine.  It's a shame people think all virtual processing languages work the same way and are basically clones of Java.  Java is a step in the right direction, but is still heavily flawed.

I was hoping tha alliance between Tao and Amiga Inc. would give us the answer, but six years later, all we've gotten are games.  Game packs don't show us anything that hasn't been done before.

Such a shame.

SHADES:  I guess that's fair enough Waccoon, the thing is you just don't know what AIs 10 year plan is. It may well be OS4 or intergration of AA into AOS or a completly new way of thinking for desktop/handheld enviroments.

I don't care what their 10-year plan is.  I want to know what's good about the work they're doing now.  I want something that tells me they know what they are doing, and they don't have to tell me what they will make 10 years from now or make empty promises to do that.

There were many 10-years plans 10 years ago.  Where did it get us today?  Lots of plans, lots of promises, and absolutely nothing to prove they had any clue what they were doing and that buying their products was a good thing.

Keeping their mouthes shut doesn't solve the core of the problem, which is that they haven't released or demonstrated anything impressive.

SHADES:  My thoughts on this whole bit are that AI are still working on AA, maybe it's bigger than what we have seen so far. Maybe you only saw the cheezy bit.

Maybe, but most companies don't take this long to make something so cheezy.

SHADES:  The thing is, if it's critical to the companies success, they are not going to say much. You could also see this as a positive! That they(AI) are kind of banking on it??

10+ years is a long time without any new products.  Constant trading of hands and a lot of silence will do that.  Seeing how little Garry says I don't think he has much power in the company and the investors are the same as they were with Bill.  What is it about their situation that has you so confident, especially after such a lackluster release as another game pack?

SirLancelotDuLac:  I would much rather they spend their resources producing something than talking about producing something.

I agree, but there's nothing wrong with being loud and proud over what you've done.  The release of AA version 1.5 was pretty much just a whimper.

Hey, at least it forced them to unify their website design.  :-)

[SirLancelotDuLac]

Waccoon wrote:

SirLancelotDuLac:  I would much rather they spend their resources producing something than talking about producing something.

I agree, but there's nothing wrong with being loud and proud over what you've done.  The release of AA version 1.5 was pretty much just a whimper.

Hey, at least it forced them to unify their website design.  :-)

Totally agreed, I thought that was my round-about point, but maybe I was not clear enough.  They should keep silent until something is done, then announce it.  AA 1.5 is complete and a good accomplishment as are the various new AA products for sale on the website.  That should be announced and it has been, even if it was only "a whimper".  

I personally feel the lower key announcement was more appropriate, considering the AA products are still only on two Microsoft platforms.  When the product is ported to many more non-Microsoft platforms, a bigger announcement will be in order, IMHO.

(warning, rambling ahead.  It's pretty dis-connected, but it's the beginning of my thought processes anyway).

I have been thinking a lot about all of this since the infamous IRC conference, and I really don't understand the amount of frustration that's turning normally rational adults into mud-slinging children (myself included).

I find myself (probably like a lot of you) caught in a quandry.  As of April 26th, I've spent 10 years wanting to do nothing else but support the Amiga community.  That desire to support the community "professionally" combined with my frustration over the current Amiga situation has lead to me making more mistakes than I can remember.  

Here's the problem.  I love supporting the Amiga community.  I really think very highly of all of you.  I even have high regards for the few that go out of their way to intentionally try and piss me off.  You're all reasonable rationable people who normally respond in an adult fashion.  

For me though, the "Amiga" (to include AI and the PPC platform) doesn't hold any interest for me any more.  To me, the classics (though useable) are dying due to the sheer age of the equipment and the "new" platform is pretty much stillborn.

Speaking entirely for myself, just to get it out in the open, I feel betrayed by Amiga Inc (and every other company except -- oddly enough -- Gateway that has come onto the scene).  I have a lot of "war wounds" to prove it.  I'm also continually frustrated by the fact that the "age of the Amiga desktop reigning supreme" appears to be over, and Amiga Inc (any version of it) doesn't seem to really care one way or the other.  I'm upset that they're "wasting" the legacy and memory that was the Amiga on a mythical piece of software that has no chance of competing against the hoard of other companies who're more prepared and better funded.

How does one both "not care" (about the computer) and "care deeply" (about the community) at the same time without "shooting from the hip"?  

In short, I feel like the more I try to help, the worse things get.  I hate feeling this way and I really wish I knew of a way to fix the problems that're all driving each other nuts.

Here's the thing that we all need to understand.  Garry et al bought the trademarks and they're obviously doing whatever they want, regardless of rhyme or reason (or direct begging from us).  Whether or not a new Amiga desktop platform stands a snowball's chance in hell isn't really relevant.  They're going to do what they're gonna do.

Anyway....

I had a 7 page long rambling post past this, but hell, it all boils down to whether or not we (as a community) are more interested any more in accepting the facts, or destroying each other trying to prove who's right (when it doesn't really matter any more anyway).

As for me, I'm weighing my continued participation in this site very heavily when I consider the pending anniversary of the 10 years I've put into it.  Hell, even Kevin Hisel had the common sense to give up after 5 years.  Anyway, I look back on what has become of my life and I literally see a curve, which pretty much follows the exact curve of the Amiga over the last 10 years.

I've jokingly stated that I'd trade it all for a Canon Digital Rebel XT kit (like the big kits you see on e-bay), and to be honest, the more I think about it, maybe it's not such a joke.  On the other hand, there are times when I feel that walking away from 10 years of effort would be a monumental mistake and one I'd live to regret.  I've made a lot of mistakes in trying to do what's best for me as well as the platform.  Everyone knows that, and sometimes I really feel that the Amiga really is "cursed".  To those of you I've wronged, I apologize (again).  

I'm not trying to be a martyr here, nor am I claiming to be any kind of saint.  Hell, I'm pretty much one of the worst at letting emotions rule my actions where the Amiga is concerned.  As such I screw up.  A lot sometimes, sometimes not so much.  In all though, I just want everyone who's bothered to read this far to take a few steps back from the Amiga for a moment.  Breathe deeply and think about the things (about the Amiga) that are really frustrating you.  Get to understand those things -- and the real reasons behind them..  

Perhaps then we can all "sit down" (virtually speaking) and hash all these things out like the adults we really are.

[itix]

I dont know.. but... is it just me who sees more and more A500 enthusiasts posting on this site? There is specific community to serve which was ignored in the past.

@itix,

When you said that, I instantly pictured Doomy and wondered whether we'll find out which machine really was the best ever made by which machine is physically "the last machine standing".  They're all dropping like flies and parts are becoming more and more scarce.

:laughing:

Wayne

[whabang]

Indeed! What we need is a retro machine to take its place.
An Amiga One, perhaps! :-D

[x56h34]

@whabang:

Joke of the day, hands down. :-)

[Glaucus]

I've jokingly stated that I'd trade it all for a Canon Digital Rebel XT kit (like the big kits you see on e-bay), and to be honest, the more I think about it, maybe it's not such a joke.

Okay everybody, let's pitch in and buy Wayne a nice Canon Digital Rebel XT kit. I think he deserves it! Hmmm... come to think of it, so do I!  :-D

  - Mike

[itix]

@wayne

:-D

[minatorb]

I've jokingly stated that I'd trade it all for a Canon Digital Rebel XT kit

How about gettting the camera anyway and thinking about it while you're off taking pictures?


BTW I thoroughly reccommend the EOS digital range, the quality is absolutely fantastic.

I just want everyone who's bothered to read this far to take a few steps back from the Amiga for a moment. Breathe deeply and think about the things (about the Amiga) that are really frustrating you.

The trolls.
Arguments between the sides are to be expected but some folks like to make life difficult.  Then there's the idiots - those who really believe theirs is the only "true" path.

There's not that many of either but unfortunately they are very noisy and very good at getting people arguing.

--

The platform needs to be advanced if it is to grow and become anything better than a retro hobby.  That means full memory protection and if possible at east partial POSIX compliance (will make life a lot easier if you want apps like OO or Firefox).

Doing these however will break compatibility with pretty much everything.  However the suggestion of using an exo-kernel could help in that it allows 2 OSs to run simultaneously - you could have two very different versions of the same OS running side by side and with the Amiga using seperate windows for apps it could proably be made quite seamless.

That't be a good start, there'll be a lot more to do - BeOS was at that level 9 years ago...

[Pyromania]

@wayne


But the real question is are there any military grade  A500 enthusiasts on this site.

 :-)

[Waccoon]

Minatorb:  However the suggestion of using an exo-kernel could help in that it allows 2 OSs to run simultaneously - you could have two very different versions of the same OS running side by side and with the Amiga using seperate windows for apps it could proably be made quite seamless

You know what really pi**es me off?  The Amiga was so old and so many things have to run under emulation, anyway, putting everything into an emulation sandbox and making a brand new OS was such a good idea.  UNIX has lots of warts, but a lot of innovative ideas can be added to an existing, modern OS.  Linux isn't pretty, but it's a better starting point than OS3.

Now that they have made things AmigaOne native using OS4, there is really no realistic upgrade path but to dump everything and start all over.  I don't want to see OS4 evolve into a terrible mess of hacks and patches like Windows (which is at the end of its life, too).

I don't see any future for Amiga as a platform.  I see AA as a set of libraries, and that means you have to follow your host's interface guidelines.  It's all invisible to the end user, so who cares if it's Amiga or not?

[rich]

I totally agree with you about being pissed, about what Amiga Inc's priority seems to be, they and a lot of us, are holding on to something that was ground breaking 20 years ago...who cares about an exact re-invention of the Amiga 500 now, or OS 3.9...4.0???  It is cool, damn me for loving it, but I do....BUT IT IS OLD...If I want old, I will EMULATE OLD, my son was playing Wings last night, you can pretty much emulate it exactly now, without any problems on a mid range PC......I ( THE GROWN UP GUY ) want a MODERN windows alternative with an IE 7.0 type browser, with plug-ins that play my freakin videos, post pictures correctly etc, that's all.... Hey I am a patient man, I still use my Voodoo 5500 card, for crying out loud!

AMIGA INC....spend all of your money developing a KICK-ASS WEB BROWSER, instead of re-hashing old OS traits, If I could boot my X86 system from your OS, get on the internet without problems, and surf without an OS 2.0 looking browser, I would be a happy man.

The patience of all you guys who still have all of your original Amiga systems all cobbled up to as modern as you can get......is truly admirable, after all of the crap this brand has been through!!! I for one, wont get fooled again...no 3rd party boards, alternate amiga-like OSes etc, will I be purchasing, only to be left hanging in the wind........when Amiga Inc releases a live boot X86 system CD with browser, I will buy back in.

It cost me nothing to wait, it cost Amiga Inc customers every single day, who are tired of waiting! :-)