Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

[DaveP]

"This being the case, to unnecessarily
force this decision upon the users is questionable,
considering that even Microsoft allows its users
to choose their hardware."

This was not through their own choice, in fact comparing Microsoft with Amiga Inc is erroneous in the extreme. Microsoft NEVER OWNED the rights the hardware - the bundle was IBM PCs with MSDOS and then IBM struck a deal with Amstrad to produce
compatibles and the whole thing evolved from there.

In fact with XP MicroSoft limits your choice by only
allowing a certain number of hardware changes per
non OEM copy of the OS before a re-registration has to take place.

The starting premise is in fact totally different. The Amiga has come from a closed system and is in a tiny market wheras MicroSoft has been able to capitalise on top of a market that was diverse through (originally) a licensing scheme that was not of its own writing.

You see I don't mind this licensing scheme firstly because moving an OS between different hardware platforms is more than a matter ( same chipset and BIOS aside ) of just drivers.

But the main reason I don't mind it is because it pulled the rug from under BPlan/MorphOS's feet when their advocates were going on about how you would be able to buy a Pegasos *THAT BOOTED BY DEFAULT INTO MORPHOS* and later install AmigaOS if you found that MorphOS was not for you. The marketing slant being similar of course to bundling IE with Windows 9x.

The whole situation exposed what is now Genesi as a business that wanted to use the Pegasos to sell MorphOS and had no interest in selling Pegasos as "Amigas" that shipped with AmigaOS at the exclusion of MorphOS if the consumer so wished.

In fact when I made a formal enquiry about reselling Pegasos boards as AmigaONEs I was told that as a vendor I would not be allowed to unbundle MorphOS and put it through the Amiga Inc. licensing scheme as part of the conditions of a volume purchase.

So, for exposing the anti-competative practices of Genesi alone I think the licensing scheme is worth it.

So, Genesi - CLOSE THAT OPEN HARDWARE eh?

Now, why should Amiga Inc weaken its position and not Genesi hmmmm? Who would possibly want that? Seehund, yes but who is behind him apart from a screaming bunch of MorphOS fanatics and a smaller bunch of AmigaOS fanatics that see the word "open" and worship it like a god.

There are too many business interests thinking they
are being oh-so-clever by only talking about the real deal via e-mail and hiding behind zealouts who spread their marketing propaganda for them ( in the process recruiting others that haven't grown up one bit since being in playground gangs ).

Sure the licensing scheme is there to piss of Genesi and do unto Genesi what Genesi wanted to do unto Amiga Inc with its own bundling scheme.

Good.  :-D

[DaveP]

"Just a general question, is there anybody here
who would totally support a license campaign if
there wasn't one?"

Yep.

" Since it's been proved that
piracy is not the real issue, "
Has anyone *proven* that? I see a lot of speculation. Frankly I don't really care if it is.

"would you actually
want to limit the OS instead of allowing the
possibility for different hardware options,
provided the support for drivers? "

The only limit is the motherboard and chipsets supported. You are not limited ( unlike with MicroSoft ) by third party cards and not even in processor.

Here is the real question, given the Amiga "community" can't even muster the enthusiasm for porting browers and the like and Genesi is terrified of Open Hardware ( Bill Bucks fear of PPC Linux sales of the Teron CX and call
for Amiga Inc to abandon the AmigaONE to close
the marketplace to custom ( Pegasos ) solutions) do you think the availability of AmigaOS would increase on different platforms?

You see insufficient Mac users use Linux to even get Mandrake upgraded from 8.2 or to even port it themselves. Average Joes buy Macs to use MacOS not to install an OS that has less support and has less exposure as a brand than MacOS. Those that want free beer buy cheap PC hardware and either run the OEM OS ( Windows ) or download and install Linux.

There is this mythical market that Seehund and the MOS fanatics seem to pluck out of thin air to support their arguments every time someone criticises the petition or the PR damage that it is doing to Amiga Inc.

Call me a cynic but I think Seehund just wanted to cause maximum PR damage to Amiga Inc in favour of Genesi and not for the "open" reasons that he states but I don't expect him to admit it for at least a year has gone by.

Where was he complaining about Genesi when Bill Buck made his infamous anti-Linux and anti-open PPC public plea?

[DaveP]

@Kronos

"What are you on ?"
Excuse me, why the personal insult?

"Yes any Pegasos will ship with MorphOS, just like any Mac
ships with MacOS and every A1 is gonna ship with OS4."

So the Pegasos is really a MorphOS boxen? That is interestingly the first time anyone has come out and admitted that. That it isn't an "open PPC bit of hardware".

"But thats NOT the point of the petition, it is about OS4 being sold without the HW, to use it on a Pegasos or Mac."

Kronos, you haven't read through what I wrote properly have you? I addressed this point.

"Genesi atleast haven't ruled out selling MorphOS shrink-wrapped for
A1 or Mac."

Amiga Inc haven't ruled out selling it for the Pegasos or Mac. Genesi ruled out selling AmigaOS4 for the Pegasos ( see my post properly this time ). If someone comes up with a serious business proposal and aren't just a back bedroom in West London ( like Pegasos-UK ) then they will evaluate it.

But "not ruling out" is like throwing a sop to the masses. Show me the money.

[DaveP]

"DaveP it isnt a matter of 'Genesi' its a matter of AOS not bieng retail.."

We were discussing the licensing scheme. I said that I backed the licensing scheme because it put Amiga Inc on an equal footing with Genesi and exposed Genesi's anti-competative stance on the Pegasos.

".and limiting the solutions to just the AmigaOne G3/G4 models..."
Which they have not done. They have limited the solution to licensed hardware. That is people that are a real business with real money and a good plan. That licensed hardware could be anything.

"..I dont want an AmigaOne I'd prefer a Pegasos or Barbie to the A1.... and AOS4 could easily have gotten onto those two boards...."
Care to give us a step by step guide?

"I'm not gonna sit and say that Genesi wanted to sacrifice MOS to make A.inc happy...of course not..."

Who said they had to? We all moaned about Microsoft when they said that they had to be the only pre-installed OS on PC hardware, we all moaned about MicroSoft when they bundled IE as the primary browser with Win9x at the exclusion of others but I don't see the same people moaning about Genesis' stance on MOS preload and MOS bundling.

There is nothing in this licensing scheme stopping Pegasos being sold as a MOSBOX ( whatever ) or an AOS4 box. It is Genesi that at least up until the last time I tried, EXCLUDE the ability to unbundle MOS from volume resales if that resale is to be Pegasos with AOS4 as the first booting OS.

"they want their OS to succeed and with good reason they actually put hard work into it... so they care about it..."

Sure, and that does them credit. But what it does not do is excuse their hypocritical stance of AmigaOS4 which the "Amiga cartel" has put a lot of hard work into as well that THEY equally want to succeed. IF motives excuse behaviour how come they, you and others are so selective about who it applies to?

You see I see a lot of "parasitic marketing" mumbo jumbo from Luca and Bouma but what is parasitic is the hypothetical situation of selling Pegasos's as Amigas including AmigaOS in the package but the default pre-install is an alternative OS which the company would rather sell. This was what was being forced on myself and one other prospective vendor at least.

If the licensing scheme was invented PURELY for the reasons of countering that marketing scenario then it was worth it for that alone.

In the meantime shrink wrapped AmigaOS packages are not economically viable. Look how long it has taken Hyperion to get this far with just Blizzard, Cyberstorm and AmigaONE GE/XE platforms to support. To provide a "one package boots on all" might have taken them a century at this rate.
 :-P

[DaveP]

"Yes and I'm sure Apple would rule out selling AOS,MOS or Linux for Macs.
(o.k. maybe not Linux)."
Yep. So wheres the problem again? I don't see you pressuring Apple into providing a ubiquitous MacOS CD to run on all PPC hardware past and present??!?

"But do they rule out letting someone else doing an OS and sell it for their HW ?"
No, and nor do Amiga Inc.

"And again both boards are open, cos you can run whatever SW you like on it."
Not to Vendors.

"Do you really think AInc would allow the Pegasos to be sold with MOS and OS4 ?"
No. But they won't stop ( apart from the MOS is illegal protestations of the Fleecy and Bill puppet show )  Pegasos being sold with MOS on its own, but Genesi want to stop Pegasos being sold with AOS on its own - OR EVEN ( get this ) with AOS preinstalled but with MOS in the package.

The acceptable face of closing the system?

"Without paying the "A1-the-name" licence fees ?"
What is your source for the "license fees" bit. Nothing is publically known about this AFAIK. The fact that you say "A1 the-name" means that this sticks in your throat but is still irrelevant. Apple owns the name of Macintosh ( well for computer hardware and software bundles that is ) do you object to them too?

"It is AInc's and only AInc's (+Hyperion) descicion on what HW
their OS gets ported, and they won't do it for the Mac or the Pegasos,
so they are the ones responsible for the lack of choice."
They are not stopping anyone from taking out a license to do so and have said so publically.

"Hiding behind an obscure licence-scheme won't change that, but it sure make a hell of a good PR."
Trying to divert attention onto Amiga Incs practices to allow Genesi's anti-competitive practices and stance to continue won't change that but it sure makes a hell of a good PR.

No one is "hiding" behind a licence scheme. There is no need to hide. Genesi are the ones not allowing AmigaOS4 to be sold for their board and not allowing ( at the moment at least ) any vendor to adhere to the Amiga Inc licensing conditions either.

[DaveP]

@Kronos
Agreed. It is a tiny difference. However I have to point out that not seperating OS/370 from the System 370 in exactly the same way that Genesi is doing at the moment ( allowed other OS but IBMs OS/370 had to be preinstalled as 1st OS ) is what made IBM fall foul of the anti-competative laws in the USA.

In fact the IBM settlement meant that not only did the OS have to be seperable from the hardware but the OS itself had to be broken up into modular parts ( DFSMS, CS/370, BCOS etc ) and the public interfaces published to allow third parties to bundle.

Sure the Amiga Inc licensing scheme is "anti-competative" but so is Genesi's and Genesis anti-competative stance was there first ;-)

[DaveP]

"DaveP so you think that if they release OS4 for Pegasos it will somehow be to Genesi's 'advantage?'"

Yes, of course. Because more people will buy Pegasos boards but because of the Genesi bundling scheme the OS that boots up straight away and has that all important "line of sight" real estate will be MOS. In fact I wouldnt be surprised if there was no spare space prepped on the HD to allow AOS to be installed without reprepping and you might as well use MOS for that... Once people start using MOS the less likely they are to get around to installing AOS until much later. Not necessarily because it is better but because that is the way life works.

" ...I dont...it will be to eyetech's disadvantage thats for sure.."
Yes, I am sure but Eyetechs disadvantage is not mutually exclusive from Genesis advantage.

".alot less would probably buy the A1..."
Maybe. Interesting but not pertinent to the argument of first position bundling schemes like Genesis.

".but on the other hand alot less would run MorphOS...as is... "
I don't agree. But see above.

"people like Kronos/Me/etc will just buy Peggys and run MOS and wait...wich dosent have an advantage for anyone but Genesi."
As is your right and more power to you.

"see you define OEM bundles as 'parasitic' ... I dont... I view rom'ing/etc as parasitic...because it limits the communitys choices..."
How does limiting choice equal parasitic behaviour? Line Of Sight or First Position Bundling is standard parasitic marketing, sheesh I only spent a secondment in marketing and even I know that. I mean even look at the dictionary definition of "parasite".

Anti-competativeness comes from licensing schemes like Genesis bundling and the Amiga Inc scheme when from a dominant position in a given market ( e.g. the Amiga market ).

Parasitic schemes I have already defined as logically equivalent to "heres your coke, but first you have to drink pepsi to get to the coke at the back of the crate". Sure, you thought you were buying Coke but you were buying the right to drink Coke after you had drunk a Pepsi.

[DaveP]

I don't see Steve Jobs running around an claiming that you could
just licence OSX to non-Apple-HW.

Because he stopped all that, CLOSING the platform. In fact you could take it that he is not as OPEN as Amiga Inc ;-)

If AIncs wants their OS to run on something else than the A1, than
they have to make it available. Simple logic.

Chop logic more like. You could say "If Genesi wants the premier Amiga OS to run on its hardware then they should pay the cost of porting it". Perhaps you do not know how Microsoft and Intel work? They have a business deal ( like the license ) that means that when Intel comes up with a new chipset they part fund the cost of upgrading Windows to run on it OR they ensure that the chipset is 100% compatible with the kernel.

"A1-the-name-licence"
Nothing known ?
Just reread all the ExecUps and statements by Ben Alan and you would find this.

Link precisely to the facts where they say that you have to pay fees to enter the scheme?

And again, show me any proof the Genesi are not allowing anybody to
port any OS !!

Show me where I said that Genesi are not allowing anybody to port any OS? I hesistate to rewrite what I did say because I have repeated it several times now and I am not sure that you have read it now.

All that is need for this is a board and some documentation, and as
long as that was all that Hyperion demande I was right behind them,
but THEY are it who are adding extra preconditions to such a port
not Genesi.

What like seeking Genesi's signature on a license?

Porting is a seperable issue. I am talking about what the deal is once a port has been done. Genesi will not allow any reseller to unbundle MOS which conflicts with the licensing terms of AOS - which as you rightly said (paraphrase) if you sell a Mac as a Mac then it should boot into MacOS. If you sell an Amiga as an Amiga then it should boot into AmigaOS and not be forced to boot into a foreign OS.

THAT is the sticking point. But you persist on putting all the blame on Amiga Inc, Hyperion or whoever.

I cannot go into business selling Pegasos booting into AmigaOS4 until Genesi backs down from putting conditions on vendors that deliberately conflict with business sense and the licensing agreement.

I want to see Pegasos as AmigaONEs booting into AmigaOS4 but it is Genesi that shot the plan in the foot, NOT Amiga Inc.

( Edit: correct typo read -> rewrite )

[DaveP]

@Helgis75

Seeing Amiga Inc and cartel as some White Knight with a Sword Of Truth helps no-one. Nor does accusing Bill Buck of deliberately spreading lies.

Bill doesn't have to, there are plenty of people on ANN that do that.

[DaveP]

"Genesi are the ones not allowing AmigaOS4 to be ported to their board...."

OK fair enough, that was a typing error. I went back and corrected it now. It was supposed to be AmigaOS4 port to be sold with their board.

No I'm not gonna search the whole net for a few quotes,

Then you cannot claim to have substantiated your assertion.

 but you can
explain to my why the A1 cost more than a Teron from TerraSoft ?

Straying from the point somewhat eh?

Firstly this was because the Vendor ( in this case Eyetech ) can order in volume and resell cheaper than an individual board purchase from the manufacturers, but now a market has been opened up in theory ( interest shown on Slashdot etc ) then other vendors are in on the act who expect to sell in greater numbers so the base board costs less from them. Simple economics. If you are prepared to put in a volume order or the manufacturer believes they are going to sell in volume then the marketing evaluation of the price will drop significantly.

Or how AInc is gonna make some money on this when the OS-licence
is free and they are getting very little for OS4 itself (according to Ben H.).

I don't know. I can speculate it is because AInc don't expect to make money on AOS4 and see it is an effort to keep a developer community there that was slipping away and probably still will. Perhaps it is a loss leader. I am nothing to do with Amiga Inc however so I can do nothing more than speculate. I am certainly not an Amiga Inc apologist.

AInc should decide what they want:
a) Sell A1/OS4 as "full" systems, which limits them to HW-vendors
very close to them.

Looks like they have done (a).

b) Sell OS4 for "every suitable HW" which is impossible with the current licence.

Not really impossible, hindered maybe. If you think there is a suitable HW platform out there and you are prepared to pay or do the porting then you can license it for that HW if you have a business plan. This is the real world of business deals in a tight market Kronos. You have to be able to walk the talk and all that.

The Pegasos is Genesi's product, and they decide to whom they sell it under what conditions.

whilst decrying others who take exactly the same stance. Like below.

OS4 is(will be) AIncs/Hyperion#s product and THEY decide how they are
gonna sell it. And not HW-vendors refusing to sign a licence

Ill sign the license AND PAY FOR THE PORT but it is GENESI that are PREVENTING ME ... THE VENDOR ... FROM DOING SO IN A RESALE AGREEMENT SEE ALL MY POSTS UP TO NOW.

Sorry to shout but I don't seem to be getting through to you quite what limitations Genesi is putting on prospective vendors. I don't give a flying f**k if Genesi don't want to sign up but they are stopping all resellers from signing up. They are in effect dictating how the "Pegasos" can be resold, in fact deliberately it appears to stop AOS4 and Pegasos bundles from appearing on the market.

But thats all just rethorics, cos the current situation allows
Genesi's market-share to grow, and it will be very hard for OS4
to compensate that headstart without compromising on the licence.

I don't think compromising on the license has anything to do with it. Getting a product out of the door has EVERYTHING to do with it.

MorphOS will either be a passing phase or it will become the competitor OS to AmigaOS. It will only dominate the Amiga market IF no copies of AmigaOS4 appear this year.

[DaveP]

@Mips_proc

"A1 is a Board not a full system... people are ordering motherboards...thats far from a full system."

Sure there is a delay between getting the hardware and the OS but you get both eventually apparently including the firmware update which allows the license to be adhered to. I am sure Amiga Inc. didn't want it that way and nor do Eyetech but it is hardly the norm but at least does demonstrate that flexibility is possible in extremis ( as with all business deals ).

It still doesn't change the point, AInc have decided on (a) as the business norm.

Anyway, this seems to be pretty exhausted and Ive said all I meant to ( and more ) today so catch you guys later in the week.

 :-D

@Amigr
"Ehm, sorry but Genesi don't restrict what you can
run on their boards. They just don't want to sign
anything with Amiga Inc. cause the last thing they
signed was a miserable failiure on the A Inc. part."

Please go and read back through what I have said.

Last I was involved:

For resellers:
1. They restrict you from modifying what the board boots up into, it has to boot into MorphOS which contradicts the licensing agreement from Amiga Inc.

2. I am not asking them to sign up with Amiga Inc, I am (was) asking them to drop their anti-competative bundling clause so that other vendors can bulk buy Pegasos products and resell them as AmigaONEs.

[DaveP]

"remember your claiming 'A.inc' a professed 'software only' company is going to sell 'full' solutions in hardware and software?.....that makes no sense at all."

No because I never knowingly made that claim.

Are you suggesting that I think that Amiga Inc is going to sell AmigaONEs through its online store?

 I pointed out that they are licensing Hardware and Software solutions and that is the knub and crux of the license. It has to be an AmigaONE bundle.

As to when, who fricking even knows ( as I HAVE said already this thread ), but I would suggest that it's vendors will sell them as the licensed bundles as and when AOS4 is released.

I really must go! Its daylight and I have things to do.

[DaveP]

"I can't say whether Dave_P is lying when he says that Genesi told him they would not allow MorphOS to be unbundle or not. "

No you can't, and this convoluted means of inferring that I might have is a mite offensive. There is even circumstantial evidence backing up my point of view on ANN, here etc.

I suggest that you get into the unenviable position of trying to negotiate with both Amiga Inc and Genesi  (then BPlan ) and find out for yourself, or do the simpler option of searching the web.

 I am sure that if you ask the cheerleader squad politely they might even let you in on correspondance which also verifies it.

However, it is a reasonably well understood position on MorphOS bundling and I am sure that if Amiga Inc werent on the other side of the negotiation the contents of the bundle would be negotiable.

Unfortunately Genesi seem to think of AmigaOS4 on Pegasos as a big threat at the moment, knowing full well that providing a board for porting whilst still tying prospective licensees up in knots makes absorbing the cost of the port by a third party a significant risk.

"Genesi has not made clear their licensing terms."
Strange how they don't go public on this when they make significant public statements on everything else. I suggest you go look at the "Drunken reposting of Fleecys email" episode to see SOME public statements on the matter.

However, what you COULD do, if you believe I am a liar or if you believe that Genesi might actually change their minds would be to persaude them to make public their terms and conditions for resellers of the Pegasos bundle.

What I think you fail to realise is that Pegasos and MorphOS is a single, unseperable commodity for all intents and purposes.

In fact you could do similar to myself and call them up and ask them if you can order a large shipment of Pegasos without MorphOS so that you can resell them with AmigaOS4.

Go on, do it!

[DaveP]

mips_proc wrote:
I'd just like to say i for one dont 'worship' any of these companies...and when Genesi does something stupid I'll come down on them... I have pointed out stupid things they have done in the past...and I will in the future... but this grouping all non-believers into one group as MOS users is pretty pathetic...

Way to go mips, and the converse is true as well.

This thread is probably going to get locked now anyway!